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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #560 on: September 17, 2014, 05:42:27 PM »
I have studied practically every religion on the planet at one time or other. This involved visiting the mosque for a time. And since I attended a Catholic university, I knew that would involve taking religion courses. Which I wouldn't have minded had they actually taught true Catholic doctrine rather than the liberal bullshit that they actually taught. Fortunately, outside of the Religion Dept, the university in question was an excellent one, and my philosophy major (one of the few universities in the country where the majority of philosophy profs are theists) and my history major were conservative, traditional, and brilliant.

Remember that I was raised completely NON-Observant. I was less Jewish than anybody I ever knew. I began exploring spirituality when I was about 12, but I didn't start with Judaism. I came to my own Faith late. My family did not encourage me to explore Judaism at all. That was a decision I made completely on my own, comparatively recently. In fact, where I lived, there was no synagogue, so I ended up starting my search in churches.

This journey for some Jews is NOT unusual. I always knew my ethnicity was Jewish, but it was essentially in a coma, and I never looked to the religion to succor me, since I lived in a totally non-Jewish environment. Why would I? What was there to appeal to me, until I came into contact with Jews? So it was much later, after exploring Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism that I finally turned  to Judaism.
This explains a few things.  Thanks.
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Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #561 on: September 17, 2014, 05:45:46 PM »
You are quite welcome.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #562 on: September 17, 2014, 05:52:01 PM »
I can't believe I just read a thread and found sandokhan to have a significantly more convincing argument than his opponent. I need to go lie down.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #563 on: September 17, 2014, 05:56:12 PM »
I can't believe I just read a thread and found sandokhan to have a significantly more convincing argument than his opponent. I need to go lie down.

Of course his argument is more coherent, it's copy-pasted from various places on the web. I would say you're not agreeing with sandokhan, more so that you're agreeing with the various people he has plagiarized.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 06:08:51 PM by Vauxhall »

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #564 on: September 17, 2014, 06:04:10 PM »
As I said to him, it depends on whether or not you accept the claims of modern liberal biblical scholarship. I don't. So none of his arguments affect me in any way. And to give him credit, he didn't plagiarise. He did quote and give credit from where the quotes were derived. Granted, the whole argument was based on those quotes, but still.

But his argument presupposes that his interlocutor is on the same page he is. I am not. I don't except any of the "biblical research" that liberal scholars have made since the middle of about the 19th Century, or at least very little of it. So he can't argue with me on it. There is no hoping to convince me. The whole conversation is pointless.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #565 on: September 17, 2014, 07:13:46 PM »
As I said to him, it depends on whether or not you accept the claims of modern liberal biblical scholarship. I don't. So none of his arguments affect me in any way. And to give him credit, he didn't plagiarise. He did quote and give credit from where the quotes were derived. Granted, the whole argument was based on those quotes, but still.

But his argument presupposes that his interlocutor is on the same page he is. I am not. I don't except any of the "biblical research" that liberal scholars have made since the middle of about the 19th Century, or at least very little of it. So he can't argue with me on it. There is no hoping to convince me. The whole conversation is pointless.


Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #566 on: September 17, 2014, 07:25:45 PM »
By that I meant my conversation with him. NOT the rest of you.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #567 on: September 17, 2014, 08:57:51 PM »
VINDICTUS, remember, you are indeed as dumb as you look. Refusing to accept modern day liberal biblical scholarship is simply refusal to be taken in by the claptrap that is put out by man-hating, white-hating, mostly Jew-hating, and straight-bating Left-wing batch of morons who call themselves intellectuals.

Anyone who is stupid enough, again to use a Christian example, to accept that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a hypothetical "Q" document to write their own books, even though the "Q" document has NEVER been found, and no one has any clear idea what may have been in it, shouldn't be allowed out in public.

So, anyone who rejects the traditional Mosaic authorship of the Torah without extraordinary good reason (which these "scholars" have been unable to provide) should also not be allowed in public.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #568 on: September 17, 2014, 09:06:33 PM »
VINDICTUS, remember, you are indeed as dumb as you look. Refusing to accept modern day liberal biblical scholarship is simply refusal to be taken in by the claptrap that is put out by man-hating, white-hating, mostly Jew-hating, and straight-bating Left-wing batch of morons who call themselves intellectuals.

Anyone who is stupid enough, again to use a Christian example, to accept that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a hypothetical "Q" document to write their own books, even though the "Q" document has NEVER been found, and no one has any clear idea what may have been in it, shouldn't be allowed out in public.

So, anyone who rejects the traditional Mosaic authorship of the Torah without extraordinary good reason (which these "scholars" have been unable to provide) should also not be allowed in public.

You can't just go and say "I don't accept that entire branch of research, because the people in charge of it are jerks. Therefore, it doesn't matter how much evidence you provide." That's not how logical arguments work. In fact, it's about five different logical fallacies rolled into one.

Please provide evidence that biblical scholarship is
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claptrap that is put out by man-hating, white-hating, mostly Jew-hating, and straight-bating Left-wing batch of morons who call themselves intellectuals.
and, more importantly, that it is inaccurate. Or, just say that you don't especially care what the reality of the situation is because you prefer your version of events. Either of those is fine, but don't say the second and pretend you mean the first.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #569 on: September 17, 2014, 09:14:43 PM »
QUOTE: "Anyone who is stupid enough, again to use a Christian example, to accept that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a hypothetical "Q" document to write their own books, even though the "Q" document has NEVER been found, and no one has any clear idea what may have been in it, shouldn't be allowed out in public."

That is a perfect example of the "scholarship" I am talking about.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #570 on: September 17, 2014, 09:18:23 PM »
QUOTE: "Anyone who is stupid enough, again to use a Christian example, to accept that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a hypothetical "Q" document to write their own books, even though the "Q" document has NEVER been found, and no one has any clear idea what may have been in it, shouldn't be allowed out in public."

That is a perfect example of the "scholarship" I am talking about.

You sound a lot more biased than you do logical
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #571 on: September 17, 2014, 09:47:29 PM »
Lets be honest. In what universe is an argument like that logical? If a court of law were trying to figure out how two different people wrote their books, any books, not necessarily the Gospels, and I as an attorney were to say to the Judge, "Sir, they used a third book that we have, and then a fourth document that no one has ever found. But we know it must exist.", how far do you think I'd get? Seriously.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #572 on: September 17, 2014, 10:49:46 PM »
Lets be honest. In what universe is an argument like that logical? If a court of law were trying to figure out how two different people wrote their books, any books, not necessarily the Gospels, and I as an attorney were to say to the Judge, "Sir, they used a third book that we have, and then a fourth document that no one has ever found. But we know it must exist.", how far do you think I'd get? Seriously.

It's very much like the Chinese Civilisation, where the first three dynasties were determined to be mythical, now the third of those has been proven historical through archaeological and historical research. I expect the first two will as well.



If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #573 on: September 17, 2014, 11:39:44 PM »
Actually, no, the comparison fails. its one thing to HAVE SOMETHING in your hand. A tradition, a long-standing idea, that people have believed, at that has been the basis of your civilisation. Then history comes along and says, "guess what? You were right for the last 2000 years." Its another thing to totally invent shit up out of whole cloth to try to explain your shoddy "scholarship" and your incompetence.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #574 on: September 18, 2014, 12:03:47 AM »
Actually, no, the comparison fails. its one thing to HAVE SOMETHING in your hand. A tradition, a long-standing idea, that people have believed, at that has been the basis of your civilisation. Then history comes along and says, "guess what? You were right for the last 2000 years." Its another thing to totally invent shit up out of whole cloth to try to explain your shoddy "scholarship" and your incompetence.

Just as easily as a lie can be perpetrated for 2,000 years, so too can a truth be hidden for 2,000 years.

Greek and Egyptian Mythology was considered factual religion and lasted for quite some time.  It was never proven false yet we think of it as such.  Do you know why?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #575 on: September 18, 2014, 12:04:53 AM »
You have not shown any shoddy scholarship. Just an idea you disagree with.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #576 on: September 18, 2014, 12:42:00 AM »
Notice, I have never denied that certain aspects of Greek mythology were true. Remember Heinrich Schliemann. I don't know enough about the Egyptian stuff, although if the Bible is any witness, the God of Israel was doing what he did for several purposes, one of which was to show the weaknesses of Egyptian religion. But I can't pass judgement on it myself. Obviously a lot of it was fantastical, like gods with the head of a falcon, or that of a cat,or what-have-you. This is the kind of thing Erich von Daniken believes in, but not me.

Their scholarship is shoddy because they had bubkis, and they pulled "Q" out of their arse. When they were asked to explain what it was, they said "it must have been some collection of the sayings of Jesus". Where did they come to that conclusion? Moses, when he wrote the Exodus, had participated in the events he describes. Why the 2 million figure instead of a more believable smaller figure? I don't know, although I suspect there may be Kabbalistic meaning, or we all may be full of it, and reading badly garbled texts. The Masoretic Text is said to be the best we have, and that's what we all use. But is it possible, that however well preserved, somebody got numbers wrong? That Numbers recorded 600,00 men over the age of 20 when it should have said 60,000? Now, I am NOT making that claim. I just pulled that number out of MY arse to make a point. Or maybe there was a point to make using gematria (the art of using Hebrew letters to write numbers, each letter representing a number, much like Roman letters).

Now, PLEASE note, I am NOT claiming to know the answer. I am merely claiming that the Exodus occurred, and we will one day find evidence of that. Whether it involved 2 million persons or 60,000 persons, or 600,000 military age men, or 60,000 military age men (which is quite different than 60,000 persons total), I don't know. I have recently heard a claim for 60,000 total. But I don't remember where, and its not really important. Again, I merely claim, the Exodus occurred, and we will find proof of that eventually, just as Schliemann did with Troy.

On the other hand, good luck finding proof of a "Q", which NO ONE ever talked about until somebody invented the idea in their pea-brain in the 19th Century to explain how Mark came to be written first (which is crap; I expect the Catholic Church is right when they say that Matthew was first, and possibly originally in Hebrew, although the oldest copies that Christians possess are in Greek).

All it does is complicate matters to try to explain that Mark wrote first and that Matthew and Luke then plagiarised from not one, but TWO sources, one of which nobody has even heard of until the 19th fucking century, and even then, only in theory! You have to go back to Ockham's Razor. The simplest answer is the true one.

In both the Exodus AND in the question of the writing of the Gospel, Ockham's Razor can be applied. In the case of Exodus, our Forefathers 3500 years ago bound our culture together by the celebration of the Passover. Even the Christians celebrate the Sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb (Jesus). Easter would have no meaning if it weren't for the background of the Passover, the passing from bondage to freedom. Even the Muslims in the Qur'an acknowledge that it happened. They tell the story a bit differently, and inaccurately, but they do tell it.

Now, I won't convince you, and that's fine. I don't care at this point. Obviously it is much easier to apply Ockham's Razor to the Gospel. Which is easier to believe? That Matthew wrote first, or that Mark wrote first, and that Matthew and Luke borrowed from him and a document that some guy just made up in his head because no one has ever seen the damned thing?

Well, I've prattled on enough. Time to wait for responses. Enjoy.


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Offline spoon

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #577 on: September 18, 2014, 12:43:54 AM »
Do you subscribe to the book of Genesis? There's some fucked up stuff in there that makes the God of Abraham's creation story seem on par with Greek/Norse/Roman mythology.
inb4 Blanko spoons a literally pizza

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #578 on: September 18, 2014, 12:59:49 AM »
I believe the first 11 chapters of Genesis to be indecipherable. I do think there was a Flood, if for no other reason then that most major cultures in the world have a Flood story. As for the Creation, I'm not sure what I think about that. The talking Serpent and all that. I certainly do think that God can permit a serpent to talk if that is what he wishes to do. And in the Garden, perhaps ALL the animals talked. I don't know. Unfortunately, the Book of Genesis doesn't give us a lot of information. However, I can say that with the Sun and the Moon not having been created until the Fourth Day, you have to take at least the first three days as not necessarily being 24 hours in duration. They could have been whole eons of time for all I know.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #579 on: September 18, 2014, 01:49:55 AM »
Quote
Now, PLEASE note, I am NOT claiming to know the answer. I am merely claiming that the Exodus occurred

This would seem to be a great big contradiction.

Quote
On the other hand, good luck finding proof of a "Q", which NO ONE ever talked about until somebody invented the idea in their pea-brain in the 19th Century to explain how Mark came to be written first (which is crap; I expect the Catholic Church is right when they say that Matthew was first, and possibly originally in Hebrew, although the oldest copies that Christians possess are in Greek).
No one talked about Germs until the 19th century either.  Just saying...

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You have to go back to Ockham's Razor. The simplest answer is the true one.
Ok.
The simplest answer is that, aside from a few historical bits, most of it is fake.  Done. 


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They tell the story a bit differently, and inaccurately, ...
Citation needed. 
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.