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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Tumeni on June 05, 2020, 09:37:17 PM

Title: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 05, 2020, 09:37:17 PM
https://imgur.com/gallery/qnpKl0j

Defence lawyer's Twitter thread of instances of unprovoked, almost casual brutality from the police has reached over 300 entries now.

In the instance above, elderly man pushed over by police, cracks head on concrete, and they casually walk past him like he's a piece of trash

Wheelchair-bound homeless guy in LA shot and blinded in one eye

Journalist ordered to lie face down, while waving his press credentials and pleading to be let up, a group of cops walk past, and one of them casually pepper sprays him, apparently out of spite.

Numerous cases of people blinded or injured from close-quarters hits from rubber bullets and such

Utah police rush up to clearly fragile older man WITH A WALKING STICK and jostle him along the road until he falls.

Woman is sitting on ground, face covered, apparently from effects of pepper spray, and cop walks up and casually kicks her over.

etc

etc

@greg_doucette
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: garygreen on June 06, 2020, 03:24:55 AM
tbh i think a better question is: what public good do american police forces as they are currently organized actually advance? and what are the real opportunity-costs to the funding we provide them?

frankly i'm struggling to find a good answer to the former or a bad answer to the latter. i'm increasingly of the opinion that we should massively defund local police departments and reinvest those resources in community development and local social welfare. we already know what drives crime rates: poverty and population-density. period. it's well-studied, and the data are unambiguous. if you want to stop violent crimes and property crimes, then you invest in social welfare and infrastructure. i'm unaware of any established correlation between police spending and crime rates.

but gary, what about murderers and stuff?
the police — especially local police — are fucking terrible at solving homicides. if you murder someone, you are probably gonna get away with it. this is especially true if you murder someone you don't live with. the idea that homicide detectives are out there cracking stone-cold whodunits over the course of months-long investigations is a total fiction invented by pulp crime dramas. most homicides are solved by 1) dumb luck, 2) obvious evidence left at the scene, or 3) community involvement. this last bit is especially important since cops are currently so shitty at it.

but gary, what about other stuff that the police do?
lol like what?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Fortuna on June 06, 2020, 05:27:54 AM
tbh i think a better question is: what public good do american police forces as they are currently organized actually advance? and what are the real opportunity-costs to the funding we provide them?

frankly i'm struggling to find a good answer to the former or a bad answer to the latter. i'm increasingly of the opinion that we should massively defund local police departments and reinvest those resources in community development and local social welfare. we already know what drives crime rates: poverty and population-density. period. it's well-studied, and the data are unambiguous. if you want to stop violent crimes and property crimes, then you invest in social welfare and infrastructure. i'm unaware of any established correlation between police spending and crime rates.

but gary, what about murderers and stuff?
the police — especially local police — are fucking terrible at solving homicides. if you murder someone, you are probably gonna get away with it. this is especially true if you murder someone you don't live with. the idea that homicide detectives are out there cracking stone-cold whodunits over the course of months-long investigations is a total fiction invented by pulp crime dramas. most homicides are solved by 1) dumb luck, 2) obvious evidence left at the scene, or 3) community involvement. this last bit is especially important since cops are currently so shitty at it.

but gary, what about other stuff that the police do?
lol like what?

It's not just the physical presence that police exert on people, there is a psychological component there as well. A huge amount of people probably don't commit crimes simply because they are afraid of going to jail. If you reduce the amount of police on the streets, criminals will become bolder. I don't think your idea is very well thought out my dude.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: GreatATuin on June 06, 2020, 08:18:29 AM

but gary, what about other stuff that the police do?
lol like what?

Traffic police? Reckless driving and DUI are already all too common, I wouldn't like to imagine how it would be without cops to enforce these rules.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 11:05:38 AM

but gary, what about other stuff that the police do?
lol like what?

Traffic police? Reckless driving and DUI are already all too common, I wouldn't like to imagine how it would be without cops to enforce these rules.

There'd be less dead drivers, less drivers getting tased and beaten by cops who are hyped-up and adrenalin-fuelled from the chase. "Refusal to stop" seems to be an excuse for summary execution, if not over-escalation.

I cite the case of the black motorist who ran a red light or stop sign, and was seen cowering on the ground, two or three armed officers pointing their guns at him, and his grandmother, walking cane in hand, trying to protect her grandson

I cite the case of the officer who, at 100mph+, attempted a PIT manoevure on a fleeing truck, again for some trivial violation, who ended up rolling the truck, killing the driver, and launching his own vehicle into the air over the verge, and giving himself severe injury.

I cite the two officers who pursued a suspect through a residential neighbourhood, one firing a rifle from the passenger seat at the moving vehicle in front, and with the driver driving one-handed, discharging his pistol THROUGH HIS OWN WINDSCREEN

etc

etc
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 06, 2020, 12:01:32 PM

It's not just the physical presence that police exert on people, there is a psychological component there as well. A huge amount of people probably don't commit crimes simply because they are afraid of going to jail. If you reduce the amount of police on the streets, criminals will become bolder. I don't think your idea is very well thought out my dude.

I am not sure your rebuttal is very well thought out.  There isn't much evidence that criminality goes down with increased police presence, and some evidence the inverse is true.  There is plenty of evidence that reducing poverty and increasing social integration reduce criminality.  So let's expend resources on lifting people out of poverty and giving our people proper social support instead of providing an armed force that is generally not trained for the job they are thrust in to and end up being a de facto security force for the wealthy.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2020, 06:51:30 PM
I doubt that any of the critics here have actually performed police work. The police act inappropriately at times, but if you are a police officer and must assume that everyone has a gun or knife and is ready to use it on you at moment's notice, because the people you interact with fear arrest or are otherwise unstable, you can see why they behave as they do. And here is Tumeni wondering why they aren't going out of their way to help a guy laying down on the street, whether he was pushed or not.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: crutonius on June 06, 2020, 06:51:59 PM

but gary, what about other stuff that the police do?
lol like what?

Traffic police? Reckless driving and DUI are already all too common, I wouldn't like to imagine how it would be without cops to enforce these rules.

This.

Quite a bit of what police actually do is this.  Drunken/high morons who won't leave a 7-11.  Domestic disturbances.  Keeping the roads safe.  I would not want to see the police done away with. They do actually serve a purpose.

I would maybe like to see their responsibilities expanded in a way that somehow also serves the community.  I think it would help build a good rapport.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 07:25:21 PM
I doubt that any of the critics here have actually performed police work. The police act inappropriately at times, but if you are a police officer and must assume that everyone has a gun or knife and is ready to use it on you at moment's notice, because the people they interact with fear arrest or are otherwise unstable, you can see why they behave as they do. And here is Tumeni wondering why they aren't going out of their way to help a guy laying down on the street, whether he was pushed or not.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6crM9Xp

https://imgur.com/gallery/qnpKl0j

Shame on you if you think this is the way that the police should be acting toward their citizens, especially seniors.

Shame, shame, shame.

Makes not one bit of difference whether I've been on a police force or not.

"Inappropriate" seems to be run-of-the-mill, standard practice at the moment, which is why I started the thread

There's a curfew in New York. NYPD have been preventing the public from going home, blocking streets and entrance to subway stations, in the lead-up to curfew, then beating the public up for being out after curfew. Commuters stuck in traffic videoed three or four cops with batons beating a cyclist for no apparent reason.

Much of this is casual brutality. The cop who walks past the journalist on the ground, and without breaking step, pepper-sprays him, apparently just for the fun of it. The cop who assaults the Australian journalist, first striking him in the stomach with a shield, then punching his camera and face. No threat there, it's clear on video that all the journalist was doing was standing around, not participating.

Most recent one I've seen is the Minneapolis cops jumping on random members of the public, apparently because the cops bumped into each other on their bikes

(https://i.imgur.com/tcmR0Lt.jpg)

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Fortuna on June 06, 2020, 07:31:42 PM

It's not just the physical presence that police exert on people, there is a psychological component there as well. A huge amount of people probably don't commit crimes simply because they are afraid of going to jail. If you reduce the amount of police on the streets, criminals will become bolder. I don't think your idea is very well thought out my dude.

I am not sure your rebuttal is very well thought out.  There isn't much evidence that criminality goes down with increased police presence, and some evidence the inverse is true.  There is plenty of evidence that reducing poverty and increasing social integration reduce criminality.  So let's expend resources on lifting people out of poverty and giving our people proper social support instead of providing an armed force that is generally not trained for the job they are thrust in to and end up being a de facto security force for the wealthy.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/2/13/18193661/hire-police-officers-crime-criminal-justice-reform-booker-harris
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2020, 07:54:29 PM
I doubt that any of the critics here have actually performed police work. The police act inappropriately at times, but if you are a police officer and must assume that everyone has a gun or knife and is ready to use it on you at moment's notice, because the people they interact with fear arrest or are otherwise unstable, you can see why they behave as they do. And here is Tumeni wondering why they aren't going out of their way to help a guy laying down on the street, whether he was pushed or not.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6crM9Xp

https://imgur.com/gallery/qnpKl0j

Shame on you if you think this is the way that the police should be acting toward their citizens, especially seniors.

Shame, shame, shame.

Makes not one bit of difference whether I've been on a police force or not.

"Inappropriate" seems to be run-of-the-mill, standard practice at the moment, which is why I started the thread

There's a curfew in New York. NYPD have been preventing the public from going home, blocking streets and entrance to subway stations, in the lead-up to curfew, then beating the public up for being out after curfew. Commuters stuck in traffic videoed three or four cops with batons beating a cyclist for no apparent reason.

https://youtu.be/MMXnFOvN0Ts

- They helped him up
- They apologized
- The man was inserting himself in the middle of a riot at the time - "it happened during yesterday's riots"

Looks more like you are trying to blow things out of proportion.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 08:15:42 PM
- They helped him up (They should never have knocked him down in the first place)
- They apologized (So what?)
- The man was inserting himself in the middle of a riot (You cannot be asserting he did this deliberately, can you? Do you really think he LOOKS like he wanted to be there? Looks more like he was out for a walk and it all came to him.)

Looks more like you are trying to blow things out of proportion.

Hogwash. 

The list of brutality and abuse instances is well over 300 strong now, and that's only those that have verifiable video footage. Shudder to think what else has been going on, away from the sight of the cameras.

Second one on this page https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528 - No. 111 of 320 or so....
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2020, 08:22:43 PM
We see that you had to resort to absurd justification there; that he was out for an innocent walk when a riot suddenly formed around him, despite that we all know that they start off as shouting protests.  ::)

The things you are complaining about are random clips from people in riots, who are either committing violence, or are around people committing violence, and shouting for the death of police, assaulting and looting. You are expecting us to believe that police officers perform random acts of brutality for no reason at all!

This is an unsatisfactory argument, to claim that police are randomly violent, and is rather untenable. Your source for this is clips you find online and checked-out "as far as I can tell" logic. An unsubstative mode of argument.

Watching the videos in the last link you posted, they are of the police using non-lethal methods to subdue people, and of people complaining that they are being shot at with pepper spray balls, apparently ignorant of the fact that they are standing feet away from protestors committing violent acts. That's like going to a Hells Angels gang meeting and claiming that you weren't there to do anything illegal, so why did the police have to arrest you and toss you in jail too?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 09:33:09 PM
You are expecting us to believe that police officers perform random acts of brutality for no reason at all!

I'm telling you there's an ongoing database of them, 300+ logged so far, all with video evidence, from numerous and varied sources.

You don't need to believe me, just go take a looksee.

What else can you call it but "random acts of brutality" when a citizen has his hands up, is standing still and the cop pepper-sprays him, just because he can?

Or when the cop walks up to someone, pulls down their mask, and then pepper-sprays them at point-blank range?

It's just malicious cruelty, nothing to do with keeping the peace. They're doing it because they can

Now, to add to their battered reputation, Denver police have been firing repeatedly upon a car in which they have been advised there is a pregnant woman...

https://imgur.com/gallery/6mdFmno
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 09:48:01 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoEbVEDn-fI

New York Times - the police are "out of control". So it's not just me.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/opinion/new-york-protests.html
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 06, 2020, 09:49:40 PM
Police are what stand between us and a lawless society. Anyone who thinks we should get rid of them deserves the catastrophic results that would follow. Luckily for them, there are smarter people in control of policy. For now.

Are there bad police with bad values who abuse their power? Absolutely, and when they do they should be dealt with. (Which takes other, good police to enforce btw.)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2020, 09:49:45 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0vURy_pbijQ

Police officers are randomly shot in these protests, people are shooting each other, and Tumeni is complaining that people standing near violent protestors are getting pepper sprayed too and arrested and beaten with battons.

Tumeni is suggesting that when things turn violent the police need to be very selective about who they arrest, batton, and peppers spray. The biggest eye roll. These are NON-LETHAL solutions to a VIOLENT protest.

A situation where anyone might have a gun in their pocket. And you complain about people getting some non-lethal treatment in a protest and riot that they chose to participate in. Please.

Let me know when there is a tinnamen square type massacre by police and I'll consider sympathizing with the fake tears you are attempting.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 06, 2020, 09:52:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoEbVEDn-fI

New York Times - the police are "out of control". So it's not just me.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/opinion/new-york-protests.html
It's you and NY Times and MSNBC and their dwindling subscriber base.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 09:56:32 PM
Deeply Broken

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqYxycd6UTM
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2020, 10:01:25 PM
Quote from: Tumeni
New York Times - the police are "out of control". So it's not just me.

It does seem mostly just you here with crocodile tears. You are resorting to opinion articles by the liberal media hack column editors that police are "out of control", despite you yourself having no evidence except some clips of police performing non-lethal solutions on violent protestors and their accomplices.

Again, once you have something substantial like police randomly opening fire on a peaceful crowd, do let us know.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 10:03:10 PM
Are there bad police with bad values who abuse their power? Absolutely, and when they do they should be dealt with. (Which takes other, good police to enforce btw.)

See the Deeply Broken video I just posted. "The whole "bad apples" cliche, is that the bad apples spoil the whole bunch", and when the bunch is spoiled, you have no good apples left.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 10:08:03 PM
You are resorting to opinion articles by the liberal media hack column editors that police are "out of control", despite you yourself have no evidence except some clips of police performing non-lethal solutions on violent protestors and their accomplices.

That's just petty name-calling of the sources, and, as I pointed out, although I've only posted a small sample here, those who are logging them have logged well over 300 instances (EDIT - 353 at 23.20 UK time, Saturday). One of the compilers is a civil defence attorney, not a journalist.

The 75-year old who got pushed over and sustained a head injury in Buffalo was non-violent. So was the old guy with the cane. There's loads more examples of non-violent folk being subjected to spiteful, malicious beatings and other mistreatment by those with the uniform.

Ironic that the protests against police brutality result in yet more police brutality.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 10:13:12 PM
"Two Buffalo police officers were charged on Saturday with felony assault after a video showed officers shoving a 75-year-old man who was protesting outside City Hall on Thursday night, officials said.

“We had two of our police officers who crossed the line,” the Erie County district attorney, John J. Flynn, told reporters after the arraignment. “My job is to prosecute those who have violated the law, plain and simple. And I believe, and I’m alleging, that these two officers violated the law.”"


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/nyregion/Buffalo-police-charged.html?action=click&algo=top_conversion&block=trending_recirc&fellback=false&imp_id=253976433&impression_id=397067641&index=1&pgtype=Article&region=footer

As pointed out in the video, this was not a "heat of the moment" thing, this was just callous bullying. As the camera moves left after they've pushed him over and walked past, they grab ONE other guy, and beyond that, the street is almost DESERTED. No cause for this, no reason, it's just spite and malice.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 06, 2020, 10:22:35 PM
Are there bad police with bad values who abuse their power? Absolutely, and when they do they should be dealt with. (Which takes other, good police to enforce btw.)

See the Deeply Broken video I just posted. "The whole "bad apples" cliche, is that the bad apples spoil the whole bunch", and when the bunch is spoiled, you have no good apples left.
Yeah and that's BS fed to people like you by the likes of MSNBC and NY Times. Those cops should not have done that. They were suspended without pay and there may be further consequences. Even if the consequences are not as severe as we think they should be, in no way does that incident imply that the "whole bunch" is spoiled. There are thousands of interactions with the public taking place rn, and most of them don't involve pushing an old man to the ground. But these are the types of stories MSNBC and NY Times want to focus on because it creates the idea in ____ minds like yours that this is what the police in general are doing. And this gains them clicks and also helps further their agenda.

BTW there was an incident beyond what the cameras were showing that the police were focusing on. It doesn't justify what they did, but it's probably not as blatant as it looks in that video.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 10:30:22 PM
Yeah and that's BS fed to people like you by the likes of MSNBC and NY Times. Those cops should not have done that. They were suspended without pay and there may be further consequences.

They've been charged now, I'm glad to say. Even if, as you suggest, not all cops are doing this, why are so many standing around and letting it happen? Why aren't the good ones stopping the bad ones?

EDIT - the two officers emerged from the courthouse, having been charged, and were applauded by their colleagues as they left the building. They are supporting two officers who committed felony assault on a non-violent 75-year old man. Think about that. 


OK, here's more of the same from the LA TImes. Why are you so keen to shoot the messenger, rather than looking at the message?

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-06/twitter-videos-lawyer-police-use-of-force-protesters

So many further examples have piled up in the lawyer's mailbox that he confesses to being unable to keep up.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 06, 2020, 10:46:07 PM
American's don't seem to like learning lessons from history.

The police were invented by the English. The first question you should ask is "why did the British invent police"?

The answer is people really really hated having soldiers on the streets. Armed men frightened them and made them feel unsafe in their villages.

So the clever English decided to create an UNARMED police force and have them police by consent.

The Americans, who like copying everything the British do from our laws to our language, decided they too should have a police force ... and then gave those police guns. What's the point? Just put soldiers on the streets. You completely missed the point of what police are for.

Once you have guns, its not policing by consent. In the UK, we don't have a national police force. We only have local police forces. The principle being, you get policed by people in your community and they can't use force and we all agree to it.

I've no idea what America thinks police are for. Just use soldiers. Your police are indistinguishable from soldiers, but for they can get as fat as fuck and have no medicals to pass. They're just fat soldiers.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 06, 2020, 10:53:23 PM
Yeah and that's BS fed to people like you by the likes of MSNBC and NY Times. Those cops should not have done that. They were suspended without pay and there may be further consequences.

They've been charged now, I'm glad to say. Even if, as you suggest, not all cops are doing this, why are so many standing around and letting it happen? Why aren't the good ones stopping the bad ones?

EDIT - the two officers emerged from the courthouse, having been charged, and were applauded by their colleagues as they left the building. They are supporting two officers who committed felony assault on a non-violent 75-year old man. Think about that. 


OK, here's more of the same from the LA TImes. Why are you so keen to shoot the messenger, rather than looking at the message?

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-06/twitter-videos-lawyer-police-use-of-force-protesters

So many further examples have piled up in the lawyer's mailbox that he confesses to being unable to keep up.
Because it has become perfectly obvious that the "messenger" is a very biased organization who are perfectly willing to deliberately misinform the public in order to achieve their own goals. If this organization wanted to, they could go out and report only on all the thousands of incidents where police are doing outstanding work. Then people like you would probably think the police were awesome people who never did wrong. In reality they are mostly good with a few bad ones and sometimes they make mistakes. For which they should be held accountable. And they are as you pointed out.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 11:15:16 PM
In reality they are mostly good with a few bad ones and sometimes they make mistakes.

2 out of 57 were bad here, and the good ones are actively supporting the bad, both by walking off their team in protest, and turning up to applaud them as they leave the courthouse where they were charged.

Where's the good in that?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2020, 11:28:05 PM
Do you really think that the police weren't shouting and ordering that man to move before they pushed him? It says in the video that there were five arrests made in that protest. Are you really going to cry and tell us that guy was 100% innocently standing there in a  protest asking for directions to the convenience store?

You are whining about some pushing, a rather lame argument in the face of violent protests and homicides. Those are violent protests and the police need to move and contain people without having their backs to people who potentially have weapons. He likely was not following orders in a serious situation. The police then acted to secure the area when he fell and the people around the scene, rather than get shot by them.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 11:32:26 PM
And the number of bad apples continues to grow;

https://6abc.com/joseph-bologna-philadelphia-police-inspector-to-face-charges-following-incident/6234214/

https://imgur.com/gallery/mdyRfFh

Where are the good ones?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 11:36:12 PM
Do you really think that the police weren't shouting and ordering that man to move before they pushed him? It says in the video that there were five arrests made in that protest. Are you really going to cry and tell us that guy was 100% innocently standing there in a  protest asking for directions to the convenience store?

You are whining about some pushing, a rather lame argument in the face of violent protests and homicides. Those are violent protests and the police need to move and contain people. He likely was not following orders Ina serious situation.

Have you watched the video? The whole video?

"in the face of violent protests and homicides"

The protests are ABOUT the brutality of the homicide of George Floyd, an unarmed citizen accused of nothing more than having a fake $20 bill, and asphyxiated by three officers, one of whom cut off his air supply and flow of blood to his brain. 

The protestors are being brutalised BY the police while protesting this police brutality.....
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2020, 11:43:27 PM
And the number of bad apples continues to grow;

https://6abc.com/joseph-bologna-philadelphia-police-inspector-to-face-charges-following-incident/6234214/

https://imgur.com/gallery/mdyRfFh

Where are the good ones?

Another clownish example. The video starts immediately with an officer hitting someone in the head with a batton but we see nothing about what leads up to that event.

Did that person shout "we have a gun and are going to kill you?" Did he assault the officer?

We don't know, because this video starts immediately with a police batton beating to the head, like the officer just decided to randomly assault someone in a fit of psychosis. Is that what you really think happens? Psychosis?

Again, that is not likely to have happened in these selective clips. And again, we see zero evidence of random unprovoked violence by police.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 11:45:51 PM
"The amount of support these officers are receiving is really telling of what challenges we really face when it comes to police reform. We as citizens need to engage our officers in dialogues to make them understand what the taxpayers expect of them and what is and isn't acceptable behavior.

I understand officers have an incredibly taxing job, but their positions of power mean they absolutely must be held to a higher standard than this."


Borrowed from someone else, referring to the assembled officers applauding the two who were charged with felony assault on the 75-year old.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 06, 2020, 11:52:50 PM
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 06, 2020, 11:55:51 PM
we see zero evidence of random unprovoked violence by police.

That's the very reason Bologna has been charged. He's supposed to show control, even when shouted at. He's supposed to show restraint. Beating civilians about the head with a baton is not control nor restraint. Which is why he has been charged.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 07, 2020, 12:01:57 AM
In reality they are mostly good with a few bad ones and sometimes they make mistakes.

2 out of 57 were bad here, and the good ones are actively supporting the bad, both by walking off their team in protest, and turning up to applaud them as they leave the courthouse where they were charged.

Where's the good in that?
Those police do a lot of good work that keep people like you safe. You're lucky policy is being made by people smarter than yourself. At least for now.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 07, 2020, 12:03:09 AM
we see zero evidence of random unprovoked violence by police.

That's the very reason Bologna has been charged. He's supposed to show control, even when shouted at. He's supposed to show restraint. Beating civilians about the head with a baton is not control nor restraint. Which is why he has been charged.

He was charged out of an emotionnal call for him to be charged, based on the selective video in question

That article also says:

Quote
"FOP Lodge 5 President John McNesby says inspector Bologna's dedication to the city is unmatched.

"Inspector Bologna is one of the most dedicated hard working individuals in the city of Philadelphia," said McNesby. "And he's been out there doing what he's supposed to be doing, protecting the city."

McNesby says Krasner has rushed to judgment in filing these criminal charges without a complete and thorough investigation.

"We're going to back Inspector Bologna all the way through and have all available resources available from myself and this FOP to him."

So there is not yet a through investigation on the details of the incident.

You should be aware that anyone can press charges after an assault. And it's up to the DA to proceed with pressing charges and starting an investigation. That investigation will determine whether there were other mitigating factors in the assault.

But here you are passing judgement and claiming that a respected police inspector had a fit of psychosis and randomly hit someone on the head with a batton. Unlikely.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 07, 2020, 12:05:42 AM
And the number of bad apples continues to grow;
Where are the good ones?
I'll tell you where they're not: In the news at NYT, MSNBC, LAT OR ABC! So of course you only see the few bad ones. Get some better sources.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 07, 2020, 12:12:12 AM
And the number of bad apples continues to grow;
Where are the good ones?
I'll tell you where they're not: In the news at NYT, MSNBC, LAT OR ABC! So of course you only see the few bad ones. Get some better sources.

You fall short of suggesting any. My primary source is the compilation made by a civil defence lawyer. What difference does it make if the incident is covered by one of these networks too?


Meanwhile, scroll down to the 10th video in this compilation - it's pre-protest, not suitable for anyone of a nervous disposition, but where's the good apple here?

https://imgur.com/gallery/o4foNF6

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna988896
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 07, 2020, 12:17:44 AM
And the number of bad apples continues to grow;
Where are the good ones?
I'll tell you where they're not: In the news at NYT, MSNBC, LAT OR ABC! So of course you only see the few bad ones. Get some better sources.

You fall short of suggesting any. My primary source is the compilation made by a civil defence lawyer. What difference does it make if the incident is covered by one of these networks too?


Meanwhile, scroll down to the 10th video in this compilation - it's pre-protest, not suitable for anyone of a nervous disposition, but where's the good apple here?

https://imgur.com/gallery/o4foNF6

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna988896
The good apples are everywhere. Go visit your local police station and stop being a moron! Also, get some better sources.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 07, 2020, 12:47:36 AM
And the number of bad apples continues to grow;
Where are the good ones?
I'll tell you where they're not: In the news at NYT, MSNBC, LAT OR ABC! So of course you only see the few bad ones. Get some better sources.

You fall short of suggesting any. My primary source is the compilation made by a civil defence lawyer. What difference does it make if the incident is covered by one of these networks too?


Meanwhile, scroll down to the 10th video in this compilation - it's pre-protest, not suitable for anyone of a nervous disposition, but where's the good apple here?

https://imgur.com/gallery/o4foNF6

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna988896

This second link from you isn't even related to the protests and involves police officers trying to convince a man in a hospital bed not to commit suicide. At one point the man starts demanding to be hit in the face and the officer ends up hitting him in the face. A pretty rediculous example from you, involving an absurd situation of a suicidal man demanding to be hit by police officers.

Probably inappropriate to grant that request, but I can't see that this is evidence that police officers go around slapping people in hospital beds in fits of psychosis.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: junker on June 07, 2020, 01:09:22 AM
As a Libertarian, I recognize that the smallest minority is the individual. I also think that the police should only exist to protect my right to pursue property. Given that the police/military state routinely violate NAP and do a terrible job of protecting government-guaranteed property rights, they should be abolished and replaced with something that does what the founding documents of the United States of America promised. The method for most effectively replacing the failed police state can certainly be debated.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: honk on June 07, 2020, 02:01:13 AM
The police were invented by the English. The first question you should ask is "why did the British invent police"?

The answer is people really really hated having soldiers on the streets. Armed men frightened them and made them feel unsafe in their villages.

This isn't true at all (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_law_enforcement_in_the_United_Kingdom), unless you're going way the hell back to when the Romans conquered Britain or whenever. British law enforcement essentially evolved from a system of having one or a few constables essentially in charge of any given settlement to constables backed by groups of watchmen who would generally keep order, which eventually led to the creation of semi-professional and professional police forces that could actually investigate crimes and generally follow up on incidents. It had nothing to do with being frightened of soldiers on the streets or their weapons, and you might be interested to learn that British society in the Middle Ages was far less skeptical about the general ownership and use of weapons than it is now. The Assize of Arms of 1181 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assize_of_Arms_of_1181) required landholders to own and maintain armor and weapons, and later on, even yeomen would be required (http://archery.mysaga.net/archlaws.html) to own a longbow and regularly practice with it.

Quote
So the clever English decided to create an UNARMED police force and have them police by consent.

The Americans, who like copying everything the British do from our laws to our language, decided they too should have a police force ... and then gave those police guns. What's the point? Just put soldiers on the streets. You completely missed the point of what police are for.

Once you have guns, its not policing by consent. In the UK, we don't have a national police force. We only have local police forces. The principle being, you get policed by people in your community and they can't use force and we all agree to it.

I've no idea what America thinks police are for. Just use soldiers. Your police are indistinguishable from soldiers, but for they can get as fat as fuck and have no medicals to pass. They're just fat soldiers.

You're stringing together a lot of unrelated points here. "Policing by consent" is an abstract ideal to strive for, not a hard-and-fast rule. There's no way to measure at what point society at large no longer consents to policing. Even if you have large protests on the streets, how can anyone prove that they speak for or represent society? It's also not conditional on the use of guns. Police can be cruel and abusive, and even kill people, without using guns at all. And even the British police will break out the guns if a situation really calls for it. Also, the bulk of American policing is done through local police departments, same as British policing (although there are (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_agencies_in_the_United_Kingdom,_Crown_dependencies_and_British_Overseas_Territories#National_law_enforcement) in fact national police forces for Britain, same as America).
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 07, 2020, 09:19:04 AM
The good apples are everywhere. Go visit your local police station and stop being a moron! Also, get some better sources.

No, they don't appear to be so, with new examples of casual brutality coming in almost hourly. Where are the good apples who will stop their bad apple colleagues when they abuse the people they're supposed to protect?

The latest is that the LAPD are apparently deliberately injuring protesters when cutting off plastic zip-tie cuffs with OPEN BLADES. Not once, but repeatedly. One protestor has three stitched wounds where the officer cut her hand to the bone. Surely there are TOOLS to do this which are better than open blades? 

"One time is a mistake. Over and over establishes intent."

"Laura Montilla, a 22 year old protester and USC graduate, also witnessed LAPD officers slice a woman's hand before releasing her into an unfamiliar neighborhood in the middle of the night without medical care or a working phone, while she was bleeding. "


You've twice told me to find "better sources" but still have not specified what they are. Sorry, but I'm too far away to consider any American police station as "local".

If you have a friendly "good apple" policeman or woman, by all means invite them over here so that we can show them what the bad apples are doing, and we'll see how good they are.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 07, 2020, 09:28:14 AM
This second link from you isn't even related to the protests

I know. I told you that in my post. "pre-protest", I said ....

and involves police officers trying to convince a man in a hospital bed not to commit suicide. At one point the man starts demanding to be hit in the face and the officer ends up hitting him in the face. A pretty rediculous example from you, involving an absurd situation of a suicidal man demanding to be hit by police officers.

Probably inappropriate to grant that request, but I can't see that this is evidence that police officers go around slapping people in hospital beds in fits of psychosis.

Wow. How totally and utterly heartless do you have to be to simply brush this off as "inappropriate"?

A suicidal man on a hospital bed "asks" to be hit, and the police officer obligingly hits him. Hard.  Tom, can you not see what's wrong with this picture? 

Officers of the law are supposed to be better than that. They're not supposed to take literally the requests of someone in a disadvantaged state. They're charged with his protection, not his torture. They're supposed to be trained professionals. Supposed to show restraint.

It's not "inappropriate", it's malicious. It's cowardly. It's spiteful. And it's totally wrong, despite what the man said or asked for.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 07, 2020, 11:37:35 AM
Police are what stand between us and a lawless society. Anyone who thinks we should get rid of them deserves the catastrophic results that would follow. Luckily for them, there are smarter people in control of policy. For now.

Are there bad police with bad values who abuse their power? Absolutely, and when they do they should be dealt with. (Which takes other, good police to enforce btw.)

This is nonsense.  The vast majority of people don't commit crimes because they think it's wrong.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 07, 2020, 02:04:38 PM
Police are what stand between us and a lawless society. Anyone who thinks we should get rid of them deserves the catastrophic results that would follow. Luckily for them, there are smarter people in control of policy. For now.

Are there bad police with bad values who abuse their power? Absolutely, and when they do they should be dealt with. (Which takes other, good police to enforce btw.)

This is nonsense.  The vast majority of people don't commit crimes because they think it's wrong.
And you know this how? Even if you could somehow know that to be true, it doesn't make any difference. I don't really care why they commit crimes only that they do commit crimes. This is most definitely not nonsense. It's possible that some police forces need some revamping as Junker suggests although he seems to be painting them all with the same brush which doesn't make much sense. All the police in the world or even in NA are not a homogeneous group.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 07, 2020, 02:12:20 PM
The good apples are everywhere. Go visit your local police station and stop being a moron! Also, get some better sources.

No, they don't appear to be so, with new examples of casual brutality coming in almost hourly. Where are the good apples who will stop their bad apple colleagues when they abuse the people they're supposed to protect?

The latest is that the LAPD are apparently deliberately injuring protesters when cutting off plastic zip-tie cuffs with OPEN BLADES. Not once, but repeatedly. One protestor has three stitched wounds where the officer cut her hand to the bone. Surely there are TOOLS to do this which are better than open blades? 

"One time is a mistake. Over and over establishes intent."

"Laura Montilla, a 22 year old protester and USC graduate, also witnessed LAPD officers slice a woman's hand before releasing her into an unfamiliar neighborhood in the middle of the night without medical care or a working phone, while she was bleeding. "


You've twice told me to find "better sources" but still have not specified what they are. Sorry, but I'm too far away to consider any American police station as "local".

If you have a friendly "good apple" policeman or woman, by all means invite them over here so that we can show them what the bad apples are doing, and we'll see how good they are.
Did you visit your local police station? No? Just opted to sit on your couch watching ABC, and MSNBC instead? Also, I question most of your stories because they come from highly biased and unreliable sources. But even if we were to take them at face value, all the stories you mentioned only involve a few police persons. There are thousands and thousands more who aren't doing these kind of things.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 07, 2020, 03:26:31 PM
Did you visit your local police station?

No, I thought I made it clear that there is no American police station "local" to me.

Also, I question most of your stories because they come from highly biased and unreliable sources.

You might have questioned them, but I've seen little in terms of disproving them.

They come from the general public. The TV stations whose programming then broadcasts those videos are not the source of the video. The general public - you know, the folk who PAY the police via their taxes, and whom the police are supposed to protect and serve ...   by all means, name a "non-biased and reliable source" to see the examples of "thousands and thousands" that you refer to below.

But even if we were to take them at face value, all the stories you mentioned only involve a few police persons. There are thousands and thousands more who aren't doing these kind of things.

... which sorta makes it worse. When the bad apple is beating the living sh*t out of a passer-by with a riot baton, when two other bad apples simply walk up and JOIN IN the beating, three against one, for no apparent reason, then if the good apples are standing around letting them do this, they cease to be the good ones.

The "only a few" is currently well over 350 incidents strong, and this seems likely to grow as the police forces track down those who were at protests, and seek to take revenge on them in the coming days and weeks. That seems to have started already in some areas....
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 07, 2020, 03:47:41 PM
Did you visit your local police station?

No, I thought I made it clear that there is no American police station "local" to me.

Also, I question most of your stories because they come from highly biased and unreliable sources.

You might have questioned them, but I've seen little in terms of disproving them.

They come from the general public. The TV stations whose programming then broadcasts those videos are not the source of the video. The general public - you know, the folk who PAY the police via their taxes, and whom the police are supposed to protect and serve ...   by all means, name a "non-biased and reliable source" to see the examples of "thousands and thousands" that you refer to below.

But even if we were to take them at face value, all the stories you mentioned only involve a few police persons. There are thousands and thousands more who aren't doing these kind of things.

... which sorta makes it worse. When the bad apple is beating the living sh*t out of a passer-by with a riot baton, when two other bad apples simply walk up and JOIN IN the beating, three against one, for no apparent reason, then if the good apples are standing around letting them do this, they cease to be the good ones.

The "only a few" is currently well over 350 incidents strong, and this seems likely to grow as the police forces track down those who were at protests, and seek to take revenge on them in the coming days and weeks. That seems to have started already in some areas....
  Yes I do question your sources and no I'm not going to the work of disproving them. As I already said, even if they are all true and have been accurately reported they still don't support the ultimate conclusion you are making.


Thousands and thousands of good police makes it worse?? So bad police are bad but thousands of good police makes it worse? We're done. You're clearly thoroughly drunk on the MSM koolaid.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 07, 2020, 03:56:21 PM
Thousands and thousands of good police makes it worse??

If they stand around and watch the bad ones, yes. If they stand around and form a circle around the bad ones to block cameras while the bad ones beat the sh*t out of the public, yes.

The good ones cannot stand by and do nothing. If they do this, they are the bad ones, too.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 07, 2020, 04:06:00 PM
Thousands and thousands of good police makes it worse??

If they stand around and watch the bad ones, yes. If they stand around and form a circle around the bad ones to block cameras while the bad ones beat the sh*t out of the public, yes.

The good ones cannot stand by and do nothing. If they do this, they are the bad ones, too.
Thousands and thousands of good police are not standing around watching a few bad police do bad things. Any more than you are. Maybe YOU'RE BAD.

 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 07, 2020, 04:26:39 PM
We're done.

You said we're done, now you're back. No second chances. If you're done, then stop typing.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 07, 2020, 04:56:59 PM
The police were invented by the English. The first question you should ask is "why did the British invent police"?

The answer is people really really hated having soldiers on the streets. Armed men frightened them and made them feel unsafe in their villages.

This isn't true at all (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_law_enforcement_in_the_United_Kingdom), unless you're going way the hell back to when the Romans conquered Britain or whenever. British law enforcement essentially evolved from a system of having one or a few constables essentially in charge of any given settlement to constables backed by groups of watchmen who would generally keep order, which eventually led to the creation of semi-professional and professional police forces that could actually investigate crimes and generally follow up on incidents. It had nothing to do with being frightened of soldiers on the streets or their weapons, and you might be interested to learn that British society in the Middle Ages was far less skeptical about the general ownership and use of weapons than it is now. The Assize of Arms of 1181 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assize_of_Arms_of_1181) required landholders to own and maintain armor and weapons, and later on, even yeomen would be required (http://archery.mysaga.net/archlaws.html) to own a longbow and regularly practice with it.

Quote
So the clever English decided to create an UNARMED police force and have them police by consent.

The Americans, who like copying everything the British do from our laws to our language, decided they too should have a police force ... and then gave those police guns. What's the point? Just put soldiers on the streets. You completely missed the point of what police are for.

Once you have guns, its not policing by consent. In the UK, we don't have a national police force. We only have local police forces. The principle being, you get policed by people in your community and they can't use force and we all agree to it.

I've no idea what America thinks police are for. Just use soldiers. Your police are indistinguishable from soldiers, but for they can get as fat as fuck and have no medicals to pass. They're just fat soldiers.

You're stringing together a lot of unrelated points here. "Policing by consent" is an abstract ideal to strive for, not a hard-and-fast rule. There's no way to measure at what point society at large no longer consents to policing. Even if you have large protests on the streets, how can anyone prove that they speak for or represent society? It's also not conditional on the use of guns. Police can be cruel and abusive, and even kill people, without using guns at all. And even the British police will break out the guns if a situation really calls for it. Also, the bulk of American policing is done through local police departments, same as British policing (although there are (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_agencies_in_the_United_Kingdom,_Crown_dependencies_and_British_Overseas_Territories#National_law_enforcement) in fact national police forces for Britain, same as America).

I think we are now having issues because we will start to use conflicting wiki entries.

In England we had an event in 1819. It was called Peterloo. Basically 60,000 people were demonstrating and the cavalry drew their swords and charged at them. People didn't want cavalry charging at them. It was a political shit storm and so a few years later after everything was put in place in 1829, we start policing by consent and the metropolitan police is formed. The government knew it couldn't keep using the army to police people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre

Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z9f4srd/revision/3
The growth of popular protest convinced many that a professional police force was required. Events such as the Peterloo Massacre in 1819 showed the weaknesses of relying on the army to deal with public protests.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 07, 2020, 08:32:49 PM

This is nonsense.  The vast majority of people don't commit crimes because they think it's wrong.
And you know this how? Even if you could somehow know that to be true, it doesn't make any difference.

It does make the difference if you want to assert that police are the only thing standing between us and a lawless society in complete disregard for the fact that most of society trundles on without involving police in the slightest.

Quote
I don't really care why they commit crimes only that they do commit crimes.

You should care why they do because crimes are committed for a variety of reasons and unfortunately there is tremendous differences in the response of law enforcement and the justice system in general between them. 

Quote
It's possible that some police forces need some revamping as Junker suggests although he seems to be painting them all with the same brush which doesn't make much sense. All the police in the world or even in NA are not a homogeneous group.

Great, so let's not come up with broad general solutions.  I think solving specific problems with specific solutions is the only thing that will really work.  But you should be aware that you began by making the statement that police are all that stand between us and lawlessness which is broad and treats police as a homogeneous group.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: honk on June 08, 2020, 05:04:48 AM
I think we are now having issues because we will start to use conflicting wiki entries.

In England we had an event in 1819. It was called Peterloo. Basically 60,000 people were demonstrating and the cavalry drew their swords and charged at them. People didn't want cavalry charging at them. It was a political shit storm and so a few years later after everything was put in place in 1829, we start policing by consent and the metropolitan police is formed. The government knew it couldn't keep using the army to police people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre

Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z9f4srd/revision/3
The growth of popular protest convinced many that a professional police force was required. Events such as the Peterloo Massacre in 1819 showed the weaknesses of relying on the army to deal with public protests.

I'll grant that incident probably did contribute to the formation of the police, but it's awfully misleading to conflate general everyday policing with the response to a large protest, as if that was the norm back then. The article you've quoted even talks about the direct forerunners to professional police departments being the thief-takers and the Bow Street Runners. It wasn't the army, not in the general, everyday sense of policing. I definitely agree with you that American police are far too militarized, but it really isn't analogous to the history of British law enforcement. The two countries have had very different histories and very different cultures. Speaking of which, the genie is out of the bottle as far as guns and arming the police in America goes. It's great that most British cops don't need to carry guns because they aren't very common over there. That's not the case in America.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 08, 2020, 08:29:15 AM
Austin PD forges fake "support" for their officers ...

https://imgur.com/gallery/Q91JY0g

Forensics would have a field day, I'm sure...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 08, 2020, 09:41:54 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ob1kwPOJiI
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 08, 2020, 09:47:43 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVKBEw2YUQQ
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 08, 2020, 09:51:44 AM
That's 45 mins or so of video with a couple of folks talking to camera.

You could at least summarise in your own words what they say, and what you think the videos actually say which is pertinent to the thread....

However, didn't you say yesterday you were "done" ???
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 08, 2020, 10:18:19 AM
The issue with how police work in the US is the problem.

The US experienced a dramatic increase in the level of violent crime when police were pulled from walking beats and placed in cruisers with tinted windows, removed from public interaction.

If you have no established relationships with people, then all will suffer.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 08, 2020, 10:27:14 AM
The issue with how police work in the US is the problem.

the US experienced a dramatic increase in the level of violent crime when police were pulled from walking beats and placed in cruisers ...

... and when they lose their self-control in one of those cruisers ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta2P3pvcZ-8
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Boots on June 08, 2020, 10:34:25 AM
That's 45 mins or so of video with a couple of folks talking to camera.

You could at least summarise in your own words what they say, and what you think the videos actually say which is pertinent to the thread....

However, didn't you say yesterday you were "done" ???
Done with you cause you are clearly an idiot and also perfectly willing to be dishonest and use dishonest tactics to push your pov.

Summary is that abolishing the police is an absurd idea which most Americans don't support for obvious reasons. There are bad some bad cops and probably some procedural issues that should be addressed.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 08, 2020, 12:02:00 PM
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?
I don't care what events led up to the 75 year old being shoved over are, he wasn't charging at the policeman, he wasn't doing anything illegal, he was just standing there - shuffling towards them slowly maybe but clearly not a danger.
I'm sure they were yelling at him to get out of the way but he clearly wasn't young or particularly nimble. I'm sure they're dealing with difficult situations right now but that is their job. Shoving him to the ground like that was not OK.
It isn't a criticism of America to say that wasn't ok, it's a criticism of that policeman who callously shoved an old man to the ground and then just walked off. Sorry but that is not acceptable. And no, it's not a "fit of psychosis", it's violent bullying by a person who is in a position of power and doesn't seem to have the temperament for it. There does seem to be a problem with this sort of thing, these are not one off incidents. For balance, some of the police responses to the protests have been quite heart warming.
So while I'm not sure the police are collectively out of control, some individuals are and should be removed.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2020, 12:09:21 PM
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

You dont

It’s a tactic employed to try and assert how complex and impregnable American society is from outsiders. Usually it’s to ensure that they never learn anything from anyone else.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on June 08, 2020, 12:17:59 PM
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

You dont

It’s a tactic employed to try and assert how complex and impregnable American society is from outsiders. Usually it’s to ensure that they never learn anything from anyone else.

Right, like how it would be dumb to even try any form of universal healthcare despite it working everywhere else because America so big!
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 08, 2020, 01:17:18 PM
Done with you cause you are clearly an idiot and also perfectly willing to be dishonest and use dishonest tactics to push your pov.
Please don't do this outside of AR. If you want to call someone names, do so in Angry Ranting.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 08, 2020, 01:22:23 PM
Summary is that abolishing the police is an absurd idea which most Americans don't support for obvious reasons.

Why should we believe that this YouTuber has assembled a meaningful survey of the populace, such that he can assert "most" Americans ... ? 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 08, 2020, 01:54:14 PM
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

You dont

It’s a tactic employed to try and assert how complex and impregnable American society is from outsiders. Usually it’s to ensure that they never learn anything from anyone else.

Right, like how it would be dumb to even try any form of universal healthcare despite it working everywhere else because America so big!
1. You do not know how the situation is with healthcare everywhere else, so you cannot claim it works everywhere else;
2. The United States is not like everywhere else.

Not even close.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 08, 2020, 01:55:37 PM
Summary is that abolishing the police is an absurd idea which most Americans don't support for obvious reasons.

Why should we believe that this YouTuber has assembled a meaningful survey of the populace, such that he can assert "most" Americans ... ?
You are joking, right?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on June 08, 2020, 02:29:58 PM
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

You dont

It’s a tactic employed to try and assert how complex and impregnable American society is from outsiders. Usually it’s to ensure that they never learn anything from anyone else.

Right, like how it would be dumb to even try any form of universal healthcare despite it working everywhere else because America so big!
1. You do not know how the situation is with healthcare everywhere else, so you cannot claim it works everywhere else;
2. The United States is not like everywhere else.

Not even close.

Proving the point!
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 08, 2020, 04:38:28 PM
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

You dont

It’s a tactic employed to try and assert how complex and impregnable American society is from outsiders. Usually it’s to ensure that they never learn anything from anyone else.

Right, like how it would be dumb to even try any form of universal healthcare despite it working everywhere else because America so big!
1. You do not know how the situation is with healthcare everywhere else, so you cannot claim it works everywhere else;
2. The United States is not like everywhere else.

Not even close.

Proving the point!
If by proving the point you mean that decrying the current state of healthcare in the US is somehow going to be be fixed by continuing the practices which helped wreck it to begin with???
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2020, 04:49:43 PM
The USA has never had single payer healthcare.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 08, 2020, 07:08:41 PM
Quote
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

Tumeni has never had experience with American police except for the random video clips which start with showing a police officer with his arm up in the air about to bring a police batton beating to someone's head, or a police officer in the process of pushing someone. From this he concludes that the police are "out of control" and randomly beating people.

If Tumeni had actually had any experience with American Police he would have known that they operate by strict rules of engagement in a highly litigatious society. That police officer likely isn't beating innocent people for no reason at all, as Tumeni would like us to believe. And considering the nature of the environment these videos originate - violent protests - these people may have been doing anything from assaulting the officers, trying to grab their sidarms, or making direct threats to their lives.

So this thread really seems to be about a foreigner who did not grow up around the American police, learn about American police or American law in his school system, who did not watch American shows about the American police (ie. 'Cops'), who has no direct knowledge of the American police, and had no friends or family members who are American police (as many in America do), and who is posting here making wild, wacky, and frankly absurd assumptions from internet clips he finds online.

Quote
I don't care what events led up to the 75 year old being shoved over are, he wasn't charging at the policeman, he wasn't doing anything illegal, he was just standing there - shuffling towards them slowly maybe but clearly not a danger.

How do you know he wasn't doing anything to deserve a pushing? This article isn't too kind about the guy. See bolded:

Buffalo Officials Duped By Professional Antifa Provocateur – Arrest and Charge Two Police Officers – Righteous Police Team Stand Together and Walk Out… (https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/06/06/buffalo-officials-duped-by-professional-antifa-provocateur-arrest-and-charge-two-police-officers-righteous-police-team-stand-together-and-walk-out/)

Quote
Martin Gugino is a 75-year-old professional agitator and Antifa provocateur who brags on his blog about the number of times he can get arrested and escape prosecution. Gugino’s Twitter Account is also filled with anti-cop sentiment [SEE HERE].  Last Thursday Gugino traveled from his home in Amherst, New York, to Buffalo to agitate a protest crowd.

During his effort Gugino was attempting to capture the radio communications signature of Buffalo police officers. CTH noted what he was attempting on Thursday night as soon as the now viral video was being used by media to sell a police brutality narrative. [Thread Here] Today, a more clear video has emerged that shows exactly what he was attempting.

So he has a blog and twitter full of anti-cop stuff, and brags about how he can get arrested and escape prosecution, and is seen in the video passing his phone over the police officer's equipment.

But yeah, lets just assume that he is an innocent old man who just happened to be at a violent protest for innocent and circumstantial reasons.  ::)

Here is slow motion of him passing his phone over the belts and chest of an officer before he got pushed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=19&v=9CubkyIzygQ&feature=emb_title
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2020, 07:47:09 PM
Is it legal in the state of new york to assault someone for any of the alleged transgressions you  mentioned?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 08, 2020, 07:51:23 PM
Is it legal in the state of new york to assault someone for any of the alleged transgressions you  mentioned?

Go up to a police officer and start passing your phone closely over his belt and chest and see if you don't get pushed away from him. I doubt any judge or jury is going to take your side on that one.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: crutonius on June 08, 2020, 08:24:43 PM
Lazily passing a cellphone in front of an officer?!  Truly monstrous. 

I think we're seeing an example of police mercy.  They would have been fully justified in double tapping him in the head and chest just to make sure he never waved a cellphone in front of an innocent officer again.  Instead they merely marched past him while he lay there motionless with a pool of blood forming around his head.

As always we're lucky to have Tom Bishop representing the side of common sense.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2020, 09:00:08 PM
Is it legal in the state of new york to assault someone for any of the alleged transgressions you  mentioned?

Go up to a police officer and start passing your phone closely over his belt and chest and see if you don't get pushed away from him. I doubt any judge or jury is going to take your side on that one.

An excellent way of dodging the question.  Shall I just assume you don't know or that it is in fact illegal to injure someone for passing a cell phone near their person?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 08, 2020, 09:23:06 PM
Is it legal in the state of new york to assault someone for any of the alleged transgressions you  mentioned?

Go up to a police officer and start passing your phone closely over his belt and chest and see if you don't get pushed away from him. I doubt any judge or jury is going to take your side on that one.

Is it legal or not?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 08, 2020, 10:18:03 PM
An excellent way of dodging the question.  Shall I just assume you don't know or that it is in fact illegal to injure someone for passing a cell phone near their person?

It is not clear what someone is doing when they go up to a police officer in riot gear during a protest and starts passing a phone over the equipment on their body, but computer crimes, theft of data, spying on sensitive communications codes, or destruction of government property are all crimes, and is not unreasonable for the officer to assume. A less perceptive officer might interpret it as intimidation by approaching the officer and passing shiny objects close to him. Probably lucky he was only pushed. The video I posted is slowed down, which means it happened faster.

It is amusing how you guys are now defending our right to approach police officers and pass our phones over the equipment on their persons. This is clearly not an innocent old man who was only asking for directions and was brutally pushed by meanie policemen.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2020, 10:28:38 PM
An excellent way of dodging the question.  Shall I just assume you don't know or that it is in fact illegal to injure someone for passing a cell phone near their person?

It is not clear what someone is doing when they go up to a police officer in riot gear during a protest and starts passing a phone over the equipment on their body, but computer crimes or destruction of government property are both crimes, and is not unreasonable to assume. A less perceptive officer might interpret it as intimidation by approaching officer and passing shiny objects close to him. Probably lucky he was only pushed. The video I posted is slowed down, which means it happened faster.

It is amusing how you guys are now defending our right to approach police officers and pass our phones over the equipment on their persons. This is clearly not an innocent old man who was only asking for directions and was brutally pushed by meanie policemen.

You still haven’t answered my question. Do you know if that officer’s actions were legal or not?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 08, 2020, 10:56:00 PM
An excellent way of dodging the question.  Shall I just assume you don't know or that it is in fact illegal to injure someone for passing a cell phone near their person?

It is not clear what someone is doing ....

It appears that you don't really know whether this is an offence or not

This is clearly not an innocent old man who was only asking for directions and was brutally pushed by meanie policemen.

His innocence or not has yet to be established. He IS, by most standards, an old man. "Brutally pushed"? Absolutely, and that's why the officers concerned have been charged. 

You appear to be advocating summary punishment, possibly to the extent of brain injury, for crimes unproven, without due process. That's not "amusing", that's tragic.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 08, 2020, 11:40:39 PM
Quote
Why do you have to be American to have a view about whether an incident is acceptable or not?

Tumeni has never had experience with American police (so what?) except for the random video clips which start with showing a police officer with his arm up in the air about to bring a police baton beating to someone's head, or a police officer in the process of pushing someone.
(so you agree police are beating citizen's heads with batons, and pushing them)
From this he concludes that the police are "out of control" and randomly beating people.
(No, I conclude this from an American Civil Defence Lawyer's database, now over 400 instances of police brutality and over-reach, along with a number of other sources. You can watch the random beatings for yourself, everyone seems to be concluding this apart from you)

If Tumeni had actually had any experience with American Police he would have known that they operate by strict rules of engagement in a highly litigatious society.
(Rules which they seem to be ignoring at the moment. There are numerous instances of casual brutality, and the use of the general public for target practice and sadistic beatings. There are now instances of the police seeking revenge on members of the public that they perceive to have assaulted them during the protests.)
That police officer likely isn't beating innocent people for no reason at all, as Tumeni would like us to believe.
(Oh, yes he is... hence the compilation of videos by a Civil Defence Lawyer)
And considering the nature of the environment these videos originate - violent protests - these people may have been doing anything from assaulting the officers, trying to grab their sidearms, or making direct threats to their lives.
(Except that many of these instances, nothing like this is taking place, and the police are meting out casual brutality to small gaggles of protestors on virtually empty streets. Folk are standing around, and the PD breezes in to shoot at them for sport, or batter them with batons for sport. Or the folks are walking away, and the police chase after them JUST TO BEAT THEM WITH BATONS for ... not walking away fast enough?) 

So this thread really seems to be about a foreigner who did not grow up around the American police, learn about American police or American law in his school system, who did not watch American shows about the American police (ie. 'Cops'), who has no direct knowledge of the American police, and had no friends or family members who are American police (as many in America do), and who is posting here making wild, wacky, and frankly absurd assumptions from internet clips he finds online.

Tumeni's replies in parenthesis, and coloured in the above.

American Civil Defence Lawyer's database - https://time.com/5849839/police-brutality-george-floyd-protests-spreadsheet/

There's over 400 now, take your pick; whether you're American or not.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1YmZeSxpz52qT-10tkCjWOwOGkQqle7Wd1P7ZM1wMW0E/htmlview?pru=AAABcql6DI8*mIHYeMnoj9XWUp3Svb_KZA#
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 09, 2020, 07:37:19 AM
It is amusing how you guys are now defending our right to approach police officers and pass our phones over the equipment on their persons.

You have been asked this a few times and not answered so I'll have a go: is doing that illegal. It is a yes or no question.
If no then he does have the right to do that.
If it is then fine, why didn't they arrest him?

Quote
This is clearly not an innocent old man who was only asking for directions and was brutally pushed by meanie policemen.

Right. And for once you have actually provided some evidence for that so point cheerfully conceded.
It does sound like he's an agitator, a real life troll if you will. But part and parcel of being a police officer is dealing with people like that.
Sorry, but that's the job. If you can't do that without shoving people to the ground so hard they need medical treatment then maybe you're not cut out for the job. There does seem to be a problem with police brutality, how widespread it is I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 09, 2020, 10:38:09 AM
https://imgur.com/gallery/oyGj55X

"aggressive cops are exactly the ones you need on the street" - Head of Police Officers Federation
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 09, 2020, 10:54:08 AM
From their own bodycams - police punch owner of a store, the owner who called them to report a robbery, breaking his jaw

https://imgur.com/gallery/sdTSnNo
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 09, 2020, 11:13:49 AM
Police attack medical stations, letting off multiple explosive devices in a confined space. Remind us all again what those "strict rules of engagement" are...

https://imgur.com/gallery/0LlzuaF

"The Seattle Office of Police Accountability says it is processing roughly 12,000 individual complaints against officers in the wake of the demonstrations held over the weekend."

https://www.kuow.org/stories/12-000-complaints-filed-against-seattle-police-after-weekend-of-protests

12,000. Just in Seattle. Just in one city.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on June 09, 2020, 10:57:02 PM
Another thread should/could be started titled "Are the American protesters out of control?"

Very few people, if any, are saying that the cop who killed Floyd George should not have been arrested (as he was last week). That was a clear tragedy, and the four cops involved should stand trial. And they are.

And there are hundreds of example videos of other cops doing bad things that they absolutely shouldn't - beating up innocent folks, etc.  All these should be condemned.

However, the idea put forth that policing in general should be done away with is pretty ridiculous to me.

Reformed? Yes. Do away with Qualified Immunity? Probably. Require body cams and other measures to reduce the ability of cops to lie about incidents? For sure.

But to have a city without agents meant to protect from and investigate crimes? Absurd.

During the riots, it's absolutely zero surprise to me that murderers (not cops, just civilian murderers) took advantage of the riots last weekend in Chicago. Two quotes from the Chicago Sun Times:

"While Chicago was roiled by another day of protests and looting in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, 18 people were killed Sunday, May 31, making it the single most violent day in Chicago in six decades, according to the University of Chicago Crime Lab. The lab’s data doesn’t go back further than 1961."

A reverend of a church in the south side is quoted as saying:
"'On Saturday and particularly Sunday, I heard people saying all over, ‘Hey, there’s no police anywhere, police ain’t doing nothing,’' Pfleger said."

here's the full story:
https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-violence-murder-history-homicide-police-crime
 (https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/8/21281998/chicago-violence-murder-history-homicide-police-crime)


I am a strong advocate of 2A as well. But things will get much, much worse without police.

We need to eliminate police brutality, not police as an institution.










Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: honk on June 10, 2020, 01:19:22 AM
The subject may have moved on by now, but for the benefit of everyone who isn't Tom, The Conservative Treehouse is a nutty fringe website (https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-the-conservative-treehouse-the-blog-thats-ground-zero-for-insane-trump-sht), and of course Martin Gugino wasn't somehow "hacking" the cop with his phone.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 10, 2020, 05:23:54 AM
Another thread should/could be started titled "Are the American protesters out of control?"

Good Luck with that.

I look forward to it with keen anticipation. Let's see all those videos of protestors in full riot gear, with an array of military-grade weapons jumping on the oh-so poorly-defended police officers.....

Look up Camden, New Jersey. 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2020, 05:36:45 AM
The subject may have moved on by now, but for the benefit of everyone who isn't Tom, The Conservative Treehouse is a nutty fringe website (https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-the-conservative-treehouse-the-blog-thats-ground-zero-for-insane-trump-sht), and of course Martin Gugino wasn't somehow "hacking" the cop with his phone.

What do you mean by fringe website? Did they doctor his blog and twitter posts that they link to, and the video of him approaching an officer and passing a device over the equipment on his body?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 10, 2020, 05:59:23 AM
... the video of him approaching an officer and passing a device over the equipment on his body?

You admitted the video you posted was slowed down, and it also shows a small part of the interaction, not the whole thing.

I see a man with a helmet in left hand, phone in right, merely gesticulating with the phone hand as he makes his point.

Seen this trick before with YouTube ISS disbelievers - they post a slowed-down snippet of one hand gesture by a weightless astronaut, and dress it up to be "Astronaut passes invisible object from one hand to the other" when, if you look at the full thing, it's simply him reaching for a hand-hold to steady himself.

I see Trump has been drinking of the same conspiracy well as you have ....
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 10, 2020, 06:01:39 AM
Here's how some protestors in LA were treated;

https://imgur.com/gallery/b3TXIt2

and another take on it;

https://imgur.com/gallery/VUoTkgJ

... but, by all means, let's have another thread started on how the protesters have been mistreating the police that were in their custody....

Portland Police now trying to get revenge on journalists who tweeted about the protests...

https://imgur.com/gallery/n3kDwbm

...and the wave builds, until it becomes a Tsunami; in February, New Mexico officer announces to suspect that “I’m going to f*** choke you out, bro.”, before... choking him to death.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/officer-video-saying-he-ll-choke-you-out-man-dies-n1228886

LAPD officer charged with assault today, having punched and beaten, in April, a homeless man who was already handcuffed. In the cellphone video, you can see he's so far out of control that his colleague has to dodge at least one of his punches, and struggles to get near....

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/lapd-officer-charged-with-assault-after-video-shows-him-beating-man/2377468/
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on June 10, 2020, 01:33:02 PM

... but, by all means, let's have another thread started on how the protesters have been mistreating the police that were in their custody....


If this was in response to my comment, that's not what I meant....

I mean that just as there is a portion of police who are clearly bad actors - and we have video evidence of it - there is a portion of the protesters who are clearly bad actors - and we also have video evidence of that. 

Have you not seen any videos in the past week of arson, looting, and beating up other folks (not cops, just other civilians) ?  If you really actually have seen none of this, and you've only seen videos and news about cops being ruthless and brutal, then I would first say you have quite a limited range of news sources and you need to read more. 

All the cops who are committing actual crimes (especially against innocent folks) should be condemned.  And all the protesters who are committing actual crimes (especially against innocent folks) should be condemned as well.  I think this is very reasonable.

Here's a particularly heartbreaking story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Milw6_UBc0A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Milw6_UBc0A)







 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 10, 2020, 01:43:34 PM
The subject may have moved on by now, but for the benefit of everyone who isn't Tom, The Conservative Treehouse is a nutty fringe website (https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-the-conservative-treehouse-the-blog-thats-ground-zero-for-insane-trump-sht), and of course Martin Gugino wasn't somehow "hacking" the cop with his phone.

What do you mean by fringe website? Did they doctor his blog and twitter posts that they link to, and the video of him approaching an officer and passing a device over the equipment on his body?

Why are you still dodging the question about whether what he did was illegal?
If it was illegal then why didn't they arrest him. If it wasn't then while he might well have been provoking them, dealing with that sort of thing is literally part of their job. If they can't do that without shoving a 75 year old man to the ground so hard that he needs hospital treatment then maybe they're not well suited to that role.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on June 10, 2020, 01:55:34 PM
The subject may have moved on by now, but for the benefit of everyone who isn't Tom, The Conservative Treehouse is a nutty fringe website (https://www.thedailybeast.com/meet-the-conservative-treehouse-the-blog-thats-ground-zero-for-insane-trump-sht), and of course Martin Gugino wasn't somehow "hacking" the cop with his phone.

What do you mean by fringe website? Did they doctor his blog and twitter posts that they link to, and the video of him approaching an officer and passing a device over the equipment on his body?

Why are you still dodging the question about whether what he did was illegal?
If it was illegal then why didn't they arrest him. If it wasn't then while he might well have been provoking them, dealing with that sort of thing is literally part of their job. If they can't do that without shoving a 75 year old man to the ground so hard that he needs hospital treatment then maybe they're not well suited to that role.

To be fair, it's possible what he did was illegal and they didn't arrest him because they have to triage things - if they are going towards more rowdy folks elsewhere they could be calculating that they need to deal with more critical offenses from others elsewhere and don't have time to deal with him.

That said, I think whether what the old man did was strictly illegal or not is moot and immaterial. These cops acted brutally, neglectfully, and shamefully. And that's what matters here.  The right move for them should have been to just walk around him, I'd think.


Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 10, 2020, 02:25:32 PM
The whole issue of this 75 year old guy is an instance of begging the question.

There is no doubt as I have written earlier, the way the police conduct their business and affairs in the US changed the moment departments eliminated the "walking beat," in urban neighborhoods and migrated toward daily rounds in the armored squad cars.

The 75 year old guy doesn't go up to random strangers performing his phony, "lemme scan you," act with his cell phone. He only does this to police, specifically to gain this type of reaction.

The white man, Catholic version of Nathan Phillips.

He knows the circumstances, lived through it, watched how the department transformed, and instead of peacefully seeking redress, has shitbaggedly acted this way ever since.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on June 10, 2020, 02:27:15 PM
... the video of him approaching an officer and passing a device over the equipment on his body?

You admitted the video you posted was slowed down, and it also shows a small part of the interaction, not the whole thing.

I see a man with a helmet in left hand, phone in right, merely gesticulating with the phone hand as he makes his point.

Seen this trick before with YouTube ISS disbelievers - they post a slowed-down snippet of one hand gesture by a weightless astronaut, and dress it up to be "Astronaut passes invisible object from one hand to the other" when, if you look at the full thing, it's simply him reaching for a hand-hold to steady himself.

This is standard arguing technique for Tom. It's not that different from his threads asking "What's a squirrel doing on Mars?" because a collection of rocks captured from a certain angle looks vaguely like a squirrel.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 10, 2020, 02:31:33 PM
I mean that just as there is a portion of police who are clearly bad actors - and we have video evidence of it - there is a portion of the protesters who are clearly bad actors - and we also have video evidence of that.

Not relevant to the topic, though. The question was "Are the police out of control?", because the police are taxpayer-funded, should answer to the people, but are routinely mistreating the people, apparently just because they feel they can. 

The core point is that most of the instances referred to go far beyond the realm of reasonable action, when the general public are being casually brutalised and attacked, simply because the police fear no repercussions.

The journalist is on his knees, and is ordered to lie flat on his stomach by police. While in this position, he holds his press card, and announces his credentials as a number of police pass by. Most ignore him, but the last, almost casually, with no reason beyond the fact that he can, gives the journalist a squirt of pepper spray in his face. This is not legitimate crowd control, this is not reasonable force, this is plain and simple malice, just for the sake of it.

There's almost 500 examples in the links I posted above.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 10, 2020, 02:32:07 PM
Quote
Innocent old man

(https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/martin-gugino-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 10, 2020, 02:34:43 PM
I mean that just as there is a portion of police who are clearly bad actors - and we have video evidence of it - there is a portion of the protesters who are clearly bad actors - and we also have video evidence of that.

Not relevant to the topic, though. The question was "Are the police out of control?", because the police are taxpayer-funded, should answer to the people, but are routinely mistreating the people, apparently just because they feel they can.
Tumeni, it is relevant to the topic.

The police can and must be worse actors toward those bad actors and that is the concept you are missing.

Rioters and looters start to do their thing in the neighborhood of my family and the police fail to act with appropriate physical force in order to stop it, then I will.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 10, 2020, 02:45:54 PM
Rioters and looters start to do their thing in the neighborhood of my family and the police fail to act with appropriate physical force in order to stop it, then I will.

You're missing the point. They're out of control and are being casually brutal to anyone, because they think they can. That includes peaceful protestors, passers-by, and regular folks who just happen to be in the area, as well as journalists and other observers.

 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 10, 2020, 02:50:56 PM
Rioters and looters start to do their thing in the neighborhood of my family and the police fail to act with appropriate physical force in order to stop it, then I will.

You're missing the point. They're out of control and are being casually brutal to anyone, because they think they can. That includes peaceful protestors, passers-by, and regular folks who just happen to be in the area, as well as journalists and other observers.
And I am sure all of this well documented, including perhaps a "LEAVE THE AREA," warning issued prior to said instances of "brutality."

A vast majority of the instances are simply shitbags getting their just due.

Always has been and nothing to see here...

When you want to come up with real solutions to the issue (which you don't, cause you could honestly give two shakes about the issue), let somebody know.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 10, 2020, 03:13:56 PM
And I am sure all of this well documented (LINKS ABOVE - approaching 500 cases)

A vast majority of the instances are simply shitbags getting their just due.

Hogwash.

https://imgur.com/gallery/t5pdE3Q

If you want to pick a particular instance for discussion, either from the links above or from this one, then go right ahead. But at the moment it doesn't seem like you're looking at them in any depth at all.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on June 10, 2020, 03:26:28 PM
I mean that just as there is a portion of police who are clearly bad actors - and we have video evidence of it - there is a portion of the protesters who are clearly bad actors - and we also have video evidence of that.

Not relevant to the topic, though. The question was "Are the police out of control?", because the police are taxpayer-funded, should answer to the people, but are routinely mistreating the people, apparently just because they feel they can. 

The core point is that most of the instances referred to go far beyond the realm of reasonable action, when the general public are being casually brutalised and attacked, simply because the police fear no repercussions.

The journalist is on his knees, and is ordered to lie flat on his stomach by police. While in this position, he holds his press card, and announces his credentials as a number of police pass by. Most ignore him, but the last, almost casually, with no reason beyond the fact that he can, gives the journalist a squirt of pepper spray in his face. This is not legitimate crowd control, this is not reasonable force, this is plain and simple malice, just for the sake of it.

There's almost 500 examples in the links I posted above.

I totally agree with you about these cops.

But my comments are super relevant.

Reread the first post I put in this thread.

My point is that while some cops are certainly evil, we should retain policing as an institution in society because without it things break down and get worse.

 I posted evidence from Chicago of an exceptionally high murder rate in a weekend because criminals were specifically taking advantage of the fact that there were no police there to stop them because they were dealing with the riots.

My point continues to be relevant in that while we should completely condemn and put on trial any cops who do bad things, we still need to retain law enforcement as an institution in society

And I had to argue that point because it has been brought up in this thread that perhaps we should just do away with police. Terrible idea.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 10, 2020, 04:24:07 PM
The 75 year old guy doesn't go up to random strangers performing his phony, "lemme scan you," act with his cell phone. He only does this to police, specifically to gain this type of reaction.
Right. No dispute there. But "this type of reaction" isn't really acceptable from people whose pledge is "to protect and serve".
I get it, the guy is a troll, maybe he was trying to provoke a reaction, but their job is in part to deal with people like that, and not by shoving them to the ground with such force that they require hospital treatment.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on June 10, 2020, 04:42:10 PM
Quote
Innocent old man

(https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/martin-gugino-1.jpg)

Yes, innocent.  It is 100% not a crime to say this.    And making it a crime to say something like this would take our institutions back more than 200 years.   

In fact, ensuring that this sort of statement is not a crime was so important to the founding fathers of America that it was the first amendment to the constitution that guarantees that it's a perfectly fine thing to do. This is middle school level civics.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 10, 2020, 05:43:59 PM
Has anyone here heard of the "Stanford Prison Experiment"?

It was a study done in the 70s in which psychologists/sociologists were attempting to discover what effects "perceived power" would have on the actions of regular, good-will, people.

Basically, they took regular people and divided them into two groups: some acted as prisoners, others acted as guards. Then they assumed their role and 'acted' out a prison scenario.

It didn't take long before the "guards" became brutal and abused the prisoners.

The study was discontinued because violence quickly escalated, and laws were implemented to prevent this sort of study from happening again.

Although the study was never replicated, and did not complete, it was an eye-opener for many sociologists when trying to determine whether or not complaints of brutality were legitimate.

It was clear that giving someone a position of power was strongly correlated to an attitude of dominance. Those in positions of power were extremely likely to internalize that feeling of power, and act it out - it is important to note that "acting it out" was almost always associated with violence.

I think we see this over, and over, and over in the American executive system. Guards over-stepping their limits in prisons, police officers playing militant roles, abuse, corruption, etc.... we see this time and time again here in the states.

I am not in favor of disbanding, dismanteling, or de-funding/abolishing our police system, but I am in favor of rethinking our approach on justice, and police presents/actions. Even simply wearing a uniform creates a sense of power for some people - these are subtleties that need to be addressed.

This idea of us vs them mentally needs to be addressed.




Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: honk on June 10, 2020, 06:18:53 PM
Has anyone here heard of the "Stanford Prison Experiment"?

(https://i.imgur.com/zjZc66H.png)

Seriously, that experiment was bad science and shouldn't be cited as anything other than an example of very bad science.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 10, 2020, 06:29:44 PM
Has anyone here heard of the "Stanford Prison Experiment"?

(https://i.imgur.com/zjZc66H.png)

Seriously, that experiment was bad science and shouldn't be cited as anything other than an example of very bad science.

Ok, well have you ever been to a prison?

My personal experience with prison/jail guards is pretty much inline with the Stanford Prison Experiment. You can also see this play out in reality - heard of #metoo?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 11, 2020, 11:48:56 AM
And I am sure all of this well documented (LINKS ABOVE - approaching 500 cases)

A vast majority of the instances are simply shitbags getting their just due.

Hogwash.

https://imgur.com/gallery/t5pdE3Q

If you want to pick a particular instance for discussion, either from the links above or from this one, then go right ahead. But at the moment it doesn't seem like you're looking at them in any depth at all.
There is nothing to look at in depth.

Provide some depth.

You are the OP.

So far you have provided exactly what I labeled it.

Lack of fully documented instances.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 11, 2020, 02:25:16 PM
(Tumeni said  -  "If you want to pick a particular instance for discussion, either from the links above or from this one, then go right ahead. But at the moment it doesn't seem like you're looking at them in any depth at all.")

There is nothing to look at in depth. Provide some depth. You are the OP. So far you have provided exactly what I labeled it.

Lack of fully documented instances.

I'm not going to go through every last one of 450+ cases and re-write the details of them here, just to please you.

The documentation is in the civil defence lawyer's twitter threads and in the spreadsheet collating them. This is how citations of evidence work. To provide documentation on point X, the writer refers to a book dealing with point X, and summarises it. The writer does not copy/paste the whole of point X into their book or article.

I've linked you to it. Go looksee.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 11, 2020, 04:05:03 PM
It's not the police-individual that is the problem. It is the police institution and union that are the problem. It's the corporate interest that is the problem.

Police institutions are backed by corporate investments - corporations that also have strong investments in prison systems and judicial law.

There are corporate interests at every level of government, writing laws, and enacting bullshit policies that help their pocket books.

Police, "law and order", brutality, and prisons are center to this and tantamount to slavery.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 11, 2020, 07:00:05 PM
You have police who are told that if they rush up at someone start yelling and don't receive compliance within less than two seconds while feeling the remotest amount of fear that they are fully justified in taking a life and legally protected from repercussions of that killing.  That is an institutional and legal framework that will inevitably lead to unnecessary acts of violence.  It's pretty obvious right now that this situation is taking place in far too many places across the country.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 11, 2020, 10:45:41 PM
You have police who are told that if they rush up at someone start yelling and don't receive compliance within less than two seconds while feeling the remotest amount of fear that they are fully justified in taking a life and legally protected from repercussions of that killing.  That is an institutional and legal framework that will inevitably lead to unnecessary acts of violence.  It's pretty obvious right now that this situation is taking place in far too many places across the country.

Exactly.

84-year olds who don't have a full grasp of the local lingo don't stand a chance.

"claim was filed against the NYPD and the city of New York .. alleges that officers pushed the 84-year-old against a wall, beat him and threw him to the ground, causing him to lose consciousness. Wong was hospitalized for his injuries and was bleeding from the head."

For jaywalking. For fecking jaywalking.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/jaywalking-elderly-man-assaulted-police-lawsuit-nypd/2015850/

58-year old didn't fare much better

"lawsuit alleges that the 58-year-old's constitutional rights were violated when then officer Eric Parker, who was responding to a report of a suspicious man, stopped Patel on the street, searched him for weapons, and allegedly slammed him to the ground using a leg sweep.  Police dashcam video captured the Feb. 6 incident last year. Patel, who was later handcuffed, suffered injury to his spinal cord and “immediately became paralyzed in his arms and legs,” though he has improved substantially after a long period of rehabilitation, according to his lawsuit."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/indian-man-partially-paralyzed-after-police-encounter-refiles-suit-against-n639351

What was his heinous crime? He was walking.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: rooster on June 12, 2020, 07:27:05 PM
I doubt that any of the critics here have actually performed police work. The police act inappropriately at times, but if you are a police officer and must assume that everyone has a gun or knife and is ready to use it on you at moment's notice, because the people you interact with fear arrest or are otherwise unstable, you can see why they behave as they do. And here is Tumeni wondering why they aren't going out of their way to help a guy laying down on the street, whether he was pushed or not.

Late to this, but nervous police officers (and racists) are exactly the problem. My dad was a cop and was scolded by his superior for not searching for a B&E suspect through a warehouse with his gun drawn. That is definitely not a scenario where you need your gun drawn unless there is clear and immediate danger. He eventually left the force because he had so many arguments with his superior, but it was for stupid shit like that.

I've also been on a ride-along with metro police. The officer I rode along with was actually pretty fantastic at putting people at ease (he was Latino fwiw). All you have to do is chat with people and keep the mood calm. But I also noticed that many of the calls we went to would have been better suited for people with more specific training such as homelessness support and domestic violence support. Cops are not trained enough or provide suitable solutions to these problems. They show up, take statements, maybe relocate an unstable homeless person, but nothing of any real use is done. Defunding the police for other more specialized support systems would be a much more effective solution to most of their daily calls.

There is just not enough police accountability and honestly, they don't really help much.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 13, 2020, 04:21:40 PM
Most police officers are probably pretty sound. That's really the problem, they should all be sound. You can't deny there's something wrong going on with the recruitment when morons, racists or generally nervous people become officers.

When like in the video below you have police start threatening to shoot students outside their dorm who are very clearly just going about their business cleaning up, calling for backup with comments like "has some kind of a blunt object in his hands" which is very clearly a way for the officer to sound 'in trouble' over the radio out of context to the situation he was in(because unless the officer is an absolute moron he knew what the object was and why the student has it). While I do think this student could have handled the situation better, I still think the officer was just trying to wave his dick about trying to show his authority, the officer escalated this situation way more than needed. And on top of that it took some random old man to come along and simply say his title and the officer was like 'ok cool I believe you'.

https://youtu.be/Q9SZlypyK-4?t=18

There's so many videos of this kind of behaviour from police. It's quite clear that some officers are problematic. UK officers seem more grounded than this but I guess america is a big place.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 13, 2020, 04:45:24 PM
In today's news, Atlanta police have summarily executed yet another unarmed coloured man, for the heinous crimes of A - falling asleep in his car, B - failing a "field sobriety test" and C - running away.

Shot in the back up to three times as he ran. Multiple witnesses, multiple cellphone videos from different angles

https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/13/atlanta-police-fatally-shoot-black-man-wendys/
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 13, 2020, 05:21:03 PM
In today's news, Atlanta police have summarily executed yet another unarmed coloured man, for the heinous crimes of A - falling asleep in his car, B - failing a "field sobriety test" and C - running away.

Shot in the back up to three times as he ran. Multiple witnesses, multiple cellphone videos from different angles

https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/13/atlanta-police-fatally-shoot-black-man-wendys/

He shouldn't have resisted, but he also shouldn't have been shot. He didn't have a weapon, wasn't threatening the police; just trying to get away. I'm sorry the officers have to deal with the unknown in often dangerous situations, but if you can't handle a little skirmish without drawing your pistol as a first reaction, you shouldn't be exposing yourself to violent situations - I think a desk job is more right for you.

Edit:

The mentality of, "do what I say or I'll shoot you", is the problem here.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: rooster on June 13, 2020, 09:24:53 PM
Bottom line is that cops should not resort to killing someone in MOST situations and they should be given the same punishments as ordinary citizens when they do unnecessarily murder/assault someone. But we have shitty cops and shitty cop unionization that gets them out of almost everything. The whole system needs to be radically readjusted.

They're straight up doing illegal shit and it needs to be treated as the crime that it is.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: honk on June 14, 2020, 12:39:34 AM
Sorry, I meant to reply to this, even if it is somewhat tangential:

My personal experience with prison/jail guards is pretty much inline with the Stanford Prison Experiment. You can also see this play out in reality - heard of #metoo?

The whole point of the experiment was that they weren't real guards or real prisoners, so how could your experience in a real prison back it up? I don't doubt that the guards were cruel and the prisoners were desperate, but there's nothing connecting that to the experiment's supposed conclusion of how having power turns you bad and deep down everyone is like that beyond the experiment itself. It might be true, but the experiment that supposedly proved it was bullshit. I regret only posting that comic in response to you, because it's really only the tip of the iceberg. Here's a more in-depth breakdown:

https://gen.medium.com/the-lifespan-of-a-lie-d869212b1f62

If Zimbardo had been sincere from the start, the experiment would still be worthless. But he wasn't even sincere. He was looking for attention and fame the whole time, and that's how he approached the "experiment." It has no scientific value whatsoever, and people need to stop citing it uncritically.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 14, 2020, 02:49:15 AM
He shouldn't have resisted...

I don’t think this is even relevant. Resisting arrest isn’t a capital crime and unless there is a genuine threat to the life of the officers, there is no justification for killing someone resisting arrest. It shouldn’t really be brought up because it can only help to reinforce the police mindset that precedents like Graham have helped to make prevalent.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 14, 2020, 09:01:46 AM
Update; it appears that the fleeing man mentioned two posts above had managed to flee with one of the officer's tasers, which sorta makes it worse. If two of them can't handle a sleepy drunk, without him disarming you, maybe they should volunteer for some retraining ...

Further issues emerge from them firing live rounds at him with queuing traffic for the drive-thru in the firing line; why they needed to chase him on foot anyway, they had his car, and (apparently) his wife in the car, so he's got nowhere to go except home, so why not pick him up there later?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 14, 2020, 10:13:55 AM
In the midst of a peaceful walk, police officer engineers a scenario where a protester walks into him, and uses this as an excuse for half a dozen others to leap on him and wrestle him to the ground.... and eyewitnesses say "they kneeled on his neck"

https://imgur.com/gallery/L9Hijyi

Honestly, it's as though they just want to rub their power trip into the world's face.... "Think Floyd was bad? Just look at what we can do next ...."

and ...

https://imgur.com/gallery/kdusmpd
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 14, 2020, 02:57:00 PM
Fox News just using Minneapolis photos in an article about Seattle and photoshopping armed guards in to photos where none exist... nothing to see here.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/13/media/seattle-fox-news-autonomous-zone-protest/index.html
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 14, 2020, 04:56:30 PM
Quite a night in Atlanta;

Driver is spotted sleeping in his car in the queue for a Wendy's drive-thru
Police are called
Driver is woken, taken out of his car and given "field sobriety test", which it seems he failed
A struggle ensues, and despite there being two police vehicles and at least two officers, the drunk person manages to evade all officers, and makes off with one of their tasers
They chase on foot, and one officer shoots the victim at least three times, causing his death

In the aftermath;

The officer who fatally shot him has been fired, second officer involved has been placed on administrative duty
The local police chief has resigned
The drive-thru has been set alight, and is now a burnt-out shell.

Is there a lesson here for the local police?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 14, 2020, 05:58:01 PM
Is there a lesson here for the local police?
Yes, don't give a drunken guy your taser then shoot to kill him as he runs away. I mean for starters how tf does a drunken guy get hold of an officers weapon and why was his first instinct to shoot guy a few times for running in the opposite direction? They had all the information they needed to apprehend him eventually without a need to even chase him let alone kill him. The problem is the officer was stressed from losing control of the situation, he absolutely did not need to use his gun and even then fuck, shoot the guy in the legs?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: honk on June 14, 2020, 06:27:53 PM
Deliberately shooting someone in the legs, or any limbs at all, is very difficult and not a thing that police are ever trained to do. A gun is a lethal weapon and shouldn't be fired unless you're prepared to kill.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 14, 2020, 07:37:45 PM
Deliberately shooting someone in the legs, or any limbs at all, is very difficult and not a thing that police are ever trained to do. A gun is a lethal weapon and shouldn't be fired unless you're prepared to kill.
While I've never shot a moving target (with a real gun) I wouldn't have thought it to be difficult but I suppose in the moment it's a quick reaction and the officer would aim to hit regardless of where on the target, so I guess it's not a plausible solution. Though I would still question that officers reasons for pulling a gun on a person running away regardless.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: maxtormaxtor1 on June 15, 2020, 02:50:02 AM
Are the police out of control?  There are some 18,000 police agencies in the USA employing some 1,100,000 officers.  Those 1 million officers would collectively work some 2 Billion hours a year.  I suppose a better question might be what would be a reasonable expectation of a performance that would be expected from a workforce of composed of human beings over 2 billion hours of work?  Another way to look at it would be how many poor decisions-bad days etc. might you have in a 1 million year career as a police officer while being continually recorded by video cameras!
This is the verdict, the population of the united states doesn't have the right to a level of police conduct that exceeds a human beings ability to deliver it.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 15, 2020, 04:39:15 AM
Sorry, I meant to reply to this, even if it is somewhat tangential:

My personal experience with prison/jail guards is pretty much inline with the Stanford Prison Experiment. You can also see this play out in reality - heard of #metoo?

The whole point of the experiment was that they weren't real guards or real prisoners, so how could your experience in a real prison back it up? I don't doubt that the guards were cruel and the prisoners were desperate, but there's nothing connecting that to the experiment's supposed conclusion of how having power turns you bad and deep down everyone is like that beyond the experiment itself. It might be true, but the experiment that supposedly proved it was bullshit. I regret only posting that comic in response to you, because it's really only the tip of the iceberg. Here's a more in-depth breakdown:

https://gen.medium.com/the-lifespan-of-a-lie-d869212b1f62

If Zimbardo had been sincere from the start, the experiment would still be worthless. But he wasn't even sincere. He was looking for attention and fame the whole time, and that's how he approached the "experiment." It has no scientific value whatsoever, and people need to stop citing it uncritically.

Thank you for the article, I want to read it all, and I will when I have more time. I did want to at least respond by saying I do understand that this experiment was not good science, and you're right, it really can't be used for any good defense. Regardless I do feel, in some ways, that power corrupts people, and it is easy for people with power to abuse it. Anecdotally as it may be, I don't think I feel this way due to the zimbardo experiment. I think it's more likely I feel this way due to the societal class with which I associate, and my personal experiences.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 15, 2020, 04:48:23 AM
He shouldn't have resisted...

I don’t think this is even relevant. Resisting arrest isn’t a capital crime and unless there is a genuine threat to the life of the officers, there is no justification for killing someone resisting arrest. It shouldn’t really be brought up because it can only help to reinforce the police mindset that precedents like Graham have helped to make prevalent.

I didn't say any of this was justified period, let alone because he was "resisting". Please don't think that I meant otherwise. I was simply saying there wasn't any reason to resist - why do it? Perhaps I don't understand because I'm a privileged white guy. I don't know what someone goes through who is constantly profiled, and worse - American media makes black people out to be violent criminals. It's really messed up.

Resisting or not, the fact that the officer shot him in the back completely nullifies any defense for the x-officer. There was absolutely no cause for that.

Edit:

hmmmmm.... And it suddenly becomes clear why you say it isn't relevant.... I get it...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 15, 2020, 09:24:26 AM
I was simply saying there wasn't any reason to resist - why do it?

.. because, as we have seen over the last few weeks, there's a very real possibility that the victim will be physically harmed in the process of being taken into custody, and a real possibility they may die in the process.

Survival instinct leads the victim to try and escape this.

Nobody, especially the coloured and ethnic population, wants to go with the police willingly, because, as my title suggests, the police are out of control. The more the victim tries to get away, the more hyped-up and adrenalin-fuelled the officers become, until they snap, and lose their self-control, along with clear sight of what their purpose was in the first place.

They'll shoot someone for "resisting arrest" even when they haven't told the victim that they're under arrest in the first place. How can you be "resisting arrest" when all that's happened is that an officer has grabbed you by the arm, and tried to twist it?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 15, 2020, 11:52:26 AM
In response to the whole Atlanta issue, the shooting was justified.

Period.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: honk on June 15, 2020, 01:06:00 PM
Wow, what a compelling argument. I'm convinced!
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 15, 2020, 01:15:03 PM
Wow, what a compelling argument. I'm convinced!
When you take control of a lethal weapon from law enforcement, the use of deadly force is authorized.

And it should be.

I know there are like-minded criminally inclined thinkers who wish to sympathize with the poor shitbags who think they can just be non-cooperative with legitimate inquiries from the police during calls, but these asshats are still few and far between and will be dealt with appropriately.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 15, 2020, 02:28:36 PM
When you take control of a lethal weapon from law enforcement, the use of deadly force is authorized.

If properly used, a taser is not a lethal weapon. The police routinely use it as, and call it, non-lethal. A misused one is a different matter.

Besides which, there's no indication that the victim showed intent to use it against anyone, UNTIL HE WAS PURSUED ON FOOT BY THE POLICE. He then appeared to use it to aid his escape by firingit while running and turning back toward them, but clearly missed.

New York Times

"“During the chase, Mr. Brooks turned and pointed the Taser at the officer,” the bureau said, adding that “the officer fired his weapon, striking Brooks.”

Mr. Brooks was taken to a hospital, where he died after surgery, the authorities said. One officer was treated at a hospital for an injury and was later released.

L. Chris Stewart, a lawyer who was hired by the Brooks family, said repeatedly at a news conference Saturday night that a Taser was not considered a deadly weapon, and that there was no justification for the police to shoot Mr. Brooks just because he had one in his hands.

He also said that the police could have instead cornered Mr. Brooks and arrested him, instead of chasing him and shooting him. “His life was not in immediate harm when he fired that shot,” Mr. Stewart said of the officer.

He said the officers put on plastic gloves and picked up shell casings before rendering first aid to Mr. Brooks, and also did not check his pulse for more than two minutes after he was shot."


Per the last sentence, it's this kind of callous indifference to the victims that makes the case against the police. They really don't give a damn for the people they're supposed to serve. "He's been shot, we'll just let him bleed out and not bother to help him now" ....
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 15, 2020, 02:48:44 PM
When you take control of a lethal weapon from law enforcement, the use of deadly force is authorized.

If properly used, a taser is not a lethal weapon. The police routinely use it as, and call it, non-lethal. A misused one is a different matter.
That is correct.

Misuse of taser in the hands of a suspect, who could then use it against police or other bystanders.
Besides which, there's no indication that the victim showed intent to use it against anyone, UNTIL HE WAS PURSUED ON FOOT BY THE POLICE.

BWAHAHAHA!!!!

Larry David is now writing for the defense!!!
He then appeared to use it to aid his escape by firingit while running and turning back toward them, but clearly missed.

New York Times

"“During the chase, Mr. Brooks turned and pointed the Taser at the officer,” the bureau said, adding that “the officer fired his weapon, striking Brooks.”

Mr. Brooks was taken to a hospital, where he died after surgery, the authorities said. One officer was treated at a hospital for an injury and was later released.

L. Chris Stewart, a lawyer who was hired by the Brooks family, said repeatedly at a news conference Saturday night that a Taser was not considered a deadly weapon, and that there was no justification for the police to shoot Mr. Brooks just because he had one in his hands.

He also said that the police could have instead cornered Mr. Brooks and arrested him, instead of chasing him and shooting him. “His life was not in immediate harm when he fired that shot,” Mr. Stewart said of the officer.

He said the officers put on plastic gloves and picked up shell casings before rendering first aid to Mr. Brooks, and also did not check his pulse for more than two minutes after he was shot."


Per the last sentence, it's this kind of callous indifference to the victims that makes the case against the police. They really don't give a damn for the people they're supposed to serve. "He's been shot, we'll just let him bleed out and not bother to help him now" ....
"The police could have done this...or the police could have done that..."

All uttered by apologists who have zero clue about police.

Bottom line.

Guy doesn't block a Wendy's drive thru lane...no cops...guy cooperates with police when they do arrive....goes home safe and sound.

Stop justifying the actions of these asshats...

Police do not serve known shitbags.

They stop them, as they're supposed to do.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 15, 2020, 02:58:53 PM
Misuse of taser in the hands of a suspect, who could then use it against police or other bystanders.

Nonsense, there's no indication of any intended or likely use against bystanders. The victim was being questioned because he was ASLEEP IN HIS CAR, not because he had shown ANY malicious intent AT ALL, toward ANYONE.

In any civilised country, the operators of the drive-thru, or other customers, would have knocked on his window to wake him up. It's not really a matter for the police, is it?

Police do not serve known shitbags.

Why has he suddenly become "known" as a "shitbag", other than you wanting to call him names?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 15, 2020, 03:04:40 PM
Misuse of taser in the hands of a suspect, who could then use it against police or other bystanders.

Nonsense, there's no indication of any intended or likely use against bystanders.
Nonsense, taking a taser from a police officer is misuse and pointing it at the police is just stupid.

Darwin at work!
In any civilised country, the operators of the drive-thru, or other customers, would have knocked on his window to wake him up. It's not really a matter for the police, is it?
Police get called, then they have an obligation to respond.

The US is a civilised country.

It is shitbags trying to make it uncivilized...that's our current problem.

Don't worry though...we will get them.
Police do not serve known shitbags.

Why has he suddenly become "known" as a "shitbag", other than you wanting to call him names?
Shitbags do what shitbags do.

Taking a taser from a police officer is a shitbag thing to do.

That makes him a shitbag.

Fortunately, a dead shitbag.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 15, 2020, 03:29:28 PM
Gotta say, I'm pretty much with lackey on this one.
You take a taser off a policeman and then point it at him as you're running away, you're kinda asking to be shot.
Which isn't to say that there isn't a problem with police brutality in the US, there is, but this isn't really an example of it, IMO.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 15, 2020, 03:29:40 PM
Nonsense, taking a taser from a police officer is misuse and pointing it at the police is just stupid.

Neither merit a summary execution without due process.  Especially when the officers had just given the victim a "field sobriety test", which he failed. So they already KNEW he wasn't at his best.

EDIT The officer who shot the victim has been fired, his partner reduced to admin, and the police chief has resigned. 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 16, 2020, 11:18:52 AM
Nonsense, taking a taser from a police officer is misuse and pointing it at the police is just stupid.

Neither merit a summary execution without due process.  Especially when the officers had just given the victim a "field sobriety test", which he failed. So they already KNEW he wasn't at his best.

EDIT The officer who shot the victim has been fired, his partner reduced to admin, and the police chief has resigned.
Summary execution my ass.

You steal a taser from a cop, you are going to get shot at.

No jury necessary to rule if it was okay or not.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 16, 2020, 11:54:35 AM
Summary execution my ass.

You steal a taser from a cop, you are going to get shot at.

No jury necessary to rule if it was okay or not.

Because fuck the constitution, right?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 16, 2020, 11:59:41 AM
Summary execution my ass.

You steal a taser from a cop, you are going to get shot at.

No jury necessary to rule if it was okay or not.

Because fuck the constitution, right?
The only fucking of the US Constitution in this case was performed by:

A. The guy who was driving under the influence;

II. Decided to sleep it off in the drive thru lane of a popular local eatery;

3. Stole a taser from a cop;

d. Fled from the police and then pointed said taser at the police.

Further fucking of the Constitution is, of course, being attempted by people of your ilk, but it will not be successful.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 16, 2020, 07:54:42 PM

The only fucking of the US Constitution in this case was performed by:

A. The guy who was driving under the influence;

II. Decided to sleep it off in the drive thru lane of a popular local eatery;

3. Stole a taser from a cop;

d. Fled from the police and then pointed said taser at the police.

Further fucking of the Constitution is, of course, being attempted by people of your ilk, but it will not be successful.

Because fuck due process right? Just kill criminals!  That's totally entrenched in the constitution  ::)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 16, 2020, 09:18:22 PM
The officer should not have discharged his weapon. This was a situation where officers are trained NOT to shoot.

Edit:

And I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the mentality should NOT be, “do as I say, or I’ll shoot”.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: rooster on June 16, 2020, 11:04:43 PM
Some of y'all really don't value human life, huh? Even if a cop was tasered, it's not a reason to murder someone ffs
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 16, 2020, 11:13:37 PM
Summary execution my ass. You steal a taser from a cop, you are going to get shot at. No jury necessary to rule if it was okay or not.

Do I need to restate that the shooting officer has been fired, and the chief of police resigned?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 17, 2020, 10:05:37 AM
The officer should not have discharged his weapon. This was a situation where officers are trained NOT to shoot.

Edit:

And I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the mentality should NOT be, “do as I say, or I’ll shoot”.
I doubt you have any clue as to what situations an officer is trained to shoot.

Nor the mentality it takes to be a police officer.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 17, 2020, 10:06:19 AM
Some of y'all really don't value human life, huh? Even if a cop was tasered, it's not a reason to murder someone ffs
Good thing no one was murdered.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 17, 2020, 10:25:25 AM
I'm not all that shocked that Totallackey would be in the mindset that it was all well and good to kill someone for running away with your non-lethal weapon. Yes the drunk guy who managed to take the taser and get away from two officers was stupid for doing that but the situation didn't call for an execution.

Quote
I doubt you have any clue as to what situations an officer is trained to shoot.

Nor the mentality it takes to be a police officer.
Part of the problem is probably how they were trained and what mentality they have... There are a lot of clear cut cases of officers being on power trips and having egos that when bruised result in unlawful action from said officers. Every single officer absolutely cannot have these problems. No one should be able to become an officer of the law if that is how they think and act. IMO in the situation above, the officer shot the guy because the officer was losing control of the situation, not because he felt like he was in mortal danger.

With that said if you're stupid enough to take an officers weapon and run after being drunk driving then I'm not going to get bent of shape when you get yourself killed. Both the officer and the drunken guy were acting stupidly in the moment.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 17, 2020, 12:13:31 PM
I'm not all that shocked that Totallackey would be in the mindset that it was all well and good to kill someone for running away with your non-lethal weapon. Yes the drunk guy who managed to take the taser and get away from two officers was stupid for doing that but the situation didn't call for an execution.
And I am not shocked you find it okay to claim I said it was okay to kill anyone.

I stated it was okay for the cop to shoot the shitbag.

It just so happens that if you get shot, you have a chance of dying.

I am also not shocked you would be okay with a drunk guy running around with a taser.

I am also not surprised at your inability to ask yourself, "What happens if the fine young, intelligent, reasoned individual, who was already drunk, already illegally driving under the influence, already illegally sleeping it off in a fast-food restaurant drive-thru, already non-cooperative, already trying to decide what is right while drunk, takes the taser, incapacitates one or more officers with the taser and then takes control of the service revolver or Remington 870 shotgun located in the vehicle?"

Maybe it is not an inability on your part to ask such a question...perhaps it is just you thinking everything is just hunky dory with shitbags such as these... 
Quote
I doubt you have any clue as to what situations an officer is trained to shoot.

Nor the mentality it takes to be a police officer.
Part of the problem is probably how they were trained and what mentality they have... There are a lot of clear cut cases of officers being on power trips and having egos that when bruised result in unlawful action from said officers. Every single officer absolutely cannot have these problems. No one should be able to become an officer of the law if that is how they think and act. IMO in the situation above, the officer shot the guy because the officer was losing control of the situation, not because he felt like he was in mortal danger.
Once a suspect is able to gain control over a piece of equipment, then yes...not only was the officer's life in danger but so were the lives of many other people.

But it is okay...driving under the influence doesn't count as endangering lives in your book either...
With that said if you're stupid enough to take an officers weapon and run after being drunk driving then I'm not going to get bent of shape when you get yourself killed. Both the officer and the drunken guy were acting stupidly in the moment.
I struck out the only part of your last point that made no sense whatsoever.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 17, 2020, 12:18:31 PM

The only fucking of the US Constitution in this case was performed by:

A. The guy who was driving under the influence;

II. Decided to sleep it off in the drive thru lane of a popular local eatery;

3. Stole a taser from a cop;

d. Fled from the police and then pointed said taser at the police.

Further fucking of the Constitution is, of course, being attempted by people of your ilk, but it will not be successful.

Because fuck due process right? Just kill criminals!  That's totally entrenched in the constitution  ::)
Due process is the part that involves a court.

Lemme know when you want to talk about a court case and we will discuss it further.

Right now, this is about a shitbag who thought it was fine to take a taser from a cop and, according to Darwin, got his due as part of the entire process.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 17, 2020, 12:34:00 PM
Quote
But it is okay...driving under the influence doesn't count as endangering lives in your book either...
It's obvious that it is endangering lives to drive under the influence, I never said it wasn't. Don't put words in my mouth. Even so, he wasn't shot for drink driving, was he? What's that got to do with anything.

Ok so your argument here is he had the potential to take more lethal weapons from the officers and so it was justified to shoot him? Minority Report is a fine movie for sure but in reality if he hasn't taken your shotgun you can't shoot him for taking your shotgun.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 17, 2020, 12:43:03 PM
Quote
But it is okay...driving under the influence doesn't count as endangering lives in your book either...
It's obvious that it is endangering lives to drive under the influence, I never said it wasn't. Don't put words in my mouth. Even so, he wasn't shot for drink driving, was he? What's that got to do with anything.

Ok so your argument here is he had the potential to take more lethal weapons from the officers and so it was justified to shoot him? Minority Report is a fine movie for sure but in reality if he hasn't taken your shotgun you can't shoot him for taking your shotgun.
No.

He wasn't shot for drinking and driving.

You can shoot him if he poses a risk to the lives of yourself and others.

A person who has stolen a tactical stun device from a police officer and subsequently flees from custody while attempting to use it on the police falls into that category whether you like it or not and you do not need a "Minority Report," movie to get a clue as to whether or not that is true.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 17, 2020, 02:56:43 PM
The officer should not have discharged his weapon. This was a situation where officers are trained NOT to shoot.

Edit:

And I've said it before and I'll say it again, the mentality should NOT be, "do as I say, or I'll shoot".
I doubt you have any clue as to what situations an officer is trained to shoot.

Nor the mentality it takes to be a police officer.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/15/cops-bullet-hit-familys-car-inside-in-rayshard-brooks-shooting-lawyer/

One of the bullets fired by the officer hit Rayshard's wife's car where there were children in the car. Tell me this is a situation where the cop is trained to shoot - when a family is immediately in line of fire? The officer not only killed Rayshard, he could have easily injured or killed Rayshard's wife or one of his four children. Police officers ARE TRAINED to NOT do this!

Furthermore, the officer had been previously disciplined for discharging his weapon when he should not have - further evidence that this officer was not trained properly.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 17, 2020, 03:35:06 PM
"What happens if the fine young, intelligent, reasoned individual, who was already drunk, already illegally driving under the influence, already illegally sleeping it off in a fast-food restaurant drive-thru, already non-cooperative, already trying to decide what is right while drunk, takes the taser, incapacitates one or more officers with the taser and then takes control of the service revolver or Remington 870 shotgun located in the vehicle?"

Did you miss the part where the victim was seen to be running AWAY from the police, and from their vehicles? Strikes me that the more distance there is between him and the vehicles, the harder it is to get something from the vehicles. And if you're running away from the officers, there is also difficulty in grabbing anything from their person.

He clearly wanted to simply get away from the police. That's it. No apparent harmful intent toward others, no apparent harmful intent toward the police, until they escalated the situation. Just wanted to get away. Can't say I blame him, given the amount of harm that they are causing to the citizens of the USA at the moment....
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 17, 2020, 03:43:10 PM
He clearly wanted to simply get away from the police. That's it. No apparent harmful intent toward others, no apparent harmful intent toward the police, until they escalated the situation. Just wanted to get away. Can't say I blame him, given the amount of harm that they are causing to the citizens of the USA at the moment....

I don't want to give justification for the actions of anyone here, but if you really empathize with the black community, it isn't hard to imagine that Rayshard turned around and pointed the taser at the officer because he actually felt HIS life was in danger - as such, the turning around with the taser was in self-defense (in his head).
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 17, 2020, 06:49:53 PM

Due process is the part that involves a court.

No shit.

Quote
Lemme know when you want to talk about a court case and we will discuss it further.

Well, he is dead.  The police deprived him of due process by killing him.

Quote
And I am not shocked you find it okay to claim I said it was okay to kill anyone.

Quote
Right now, this is about a shitbag who thought it was fine to take a taser from a cop and, according to Darwin, got his due as part of the entire process.

You certainly seem ok with this guy being killed.  But hey maybe you totally meant something else.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 17, 2020, 07:41:12 PM
Watching the live hearing from the prosecutor right now, and it comes out that for roughly 45 minutes the officers questioned Rayshard and for 45 minutes he was compliant and respectful. After this time, the officer proceeded to arrest Rayshard - however, the officer failed to read Rayshard his rights and inform him that he was under arrest.

The taser Rayshard took had already been discharged, so it was NOT a lethal weapon and they knew this.

Then the officer also kicked Rayshard while he was on the ground after being shot - wth? Just doing his job, then? The officer is also on camera shown STANDING ON RAYSHARD!

Seems telling to me that there is more to this story.


Edit:

@totallackey

With regards to police training - since you are so keen on it - let's not forget that it is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away - don't you think that would apply to a gun as well? Police officers are also trained to give medical assistance to someone they have just shot - this officer just stood on him.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: honk on June 17, 2020, 08:08:04 PM
however, the officer failed to read Rayshard his rights and inform him that he was under arrest

Reading someone their rights is not and has never been a requirement of arresting someone, and any reasonable adult should understand if a uniformed police officer tells them to put their hands behind their back and begins handcuffing them, they're obviously under arrest. I'm not saying it was okay to shoot this guy, but the implication that things might have gone differently if the cops had made a point of spelling out that he was being arrested and reading him his rights like it was a movie is an incredibly weak argument.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 17, 2020, 09:14:41 PM
however, the officer failed to read Rayshard his rights and inform him that he was under arrest

Reading someone their rights is not and has never been a requirement of arresting someone, and any reasonable adult should understand if an uniformed police officer tells them to put their hands behind their back and begins handcuffing them, they're obviously under arrest. I'm not saying it was okay to shoot this guy, but the implication that things might have gone differently if the cops had made a point of spelling out that he was being arrested and reading him his rights like it was a movie is an incredibly weak argument.

OK - so maybe you don't have to spell out people's rights to arrest them, but there are procedures in place to arrest someone. You don't just grab their arm and twist them around (especially not someone who has shown nothing but compliance). You say something like, "I'm going to put you under arrest now, and take you to detox/jail, or wherever they're taking you. "Please turn around and put your hands behind your back". Then they slap the cuffs on you - no reason to force it the way he did.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: rooster on June 18, 2020, 01:52:35 AM
Some of y'all really don't value human life, huh? Even if a cop was tasered, it's not a reason to murder someone ffs
Good thing no one was murdered.
Weird, I wonder why they're charging the cop with murder then? The other cops don't even want to defend this asshole. This is definitely not a situation where you're allowed to end a human life.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox5atlanta.com/news/fulton-county-da-charges-officers-involved-in-deadly-shooting-of-rayshard-brooks.amp
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: rooster on June 18, 2020, 02:03:34 AM
And IF Rayshard had managed to disable the officer and steal his pistol, then I'm sure one of the other cops would have been happy to kill him. But that's a big "if". Maybe cops shouldn't be cowards or try to predict the future.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 18, 2020, 10:00:17 AM
Here we can see what the motivation for prosecution is:

1. Not based on current Georgia Law;
2. A satisfaction of a mindless mob;
The prosecutor admitting a taser is a deadly weapon according to Georgia Law;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da1ArUdWhyM
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 18, 2020, 10:31:46 AM
Here we can see what the motivation for prosecution is:

1. Not based on current Georgia Law;
2. A satisfaction of a mindless mob;
The prosecutor admitting a taser is a deadly weapon according to Georgia Law;

VID

You're citing Fox as a source? The network that in the last day or so has been caught falsifying photos of the CHAZ zone in Seattle, who pasted the same armed militia man into at least two different photos which purported to be genuine?

And Carlson? Really? He starts out trying to address this shooting, but flip-flops to scaremongering over "what will happen without police on our streets?" Within 10 mins. Do we really need to take the rest of his unfocused piece apart, phrase by phrase .. ?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 18, 2020, 11:04:06 AM
Here we can see what the motivation for prosecution is:

1. Not based on current Georgia Law;
2. A satisfaction of a mindless mob;
The prosecutor admitting a taser is a deadly weapon according to Georgia Law;

VID

You're citing Fox as a source? The network that in the last day or so has been caught falsifying photos of the CHAZ zone in Seattle, who pasted the same armed militia man into at least two different photos which purported to be genuine?

And Carlson? Really? He starts out trying to address this shooting, but flip-flops to scaremongering over "what will happen without police on our streets?" Within 10 mins. Do we really need to take the rest of his unfocused piece apart, phrase by phrase .. ?
Yes.

You should.

You stated nothing in response to the video.

He has pointed out very serious issues with the filing of this charge.

As usual, you try to attack the messenger for nothing he has done.

I know why you took this approach, but I will just allow you to admit it by your continued silence toward the actual points raised.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 18, 2020, 11:15:22 AM
@totallackey

With regards to police training - since you are so keen on it - let's not forget that it is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away - don't you think that would apply to a gun as well? Police officers are also trained to give medical assistance to someone they have just shot - this officer just stood on him.
I have no clue where you got the idea that it is against Atlanta Police Department procedures to shoot someone who has a taser.

Because you are just flat out wrong:
https://www.atlantapd.org/Home/ShowDocument?id=3273
 (https://www.atlantapd.org/Home/ShowDocument?id=3273)
4.2 Use of Deadly Force
(CALEA 6th ed. Standard 4.2.1)
An employee may use deadly force to apprehend a suspected felon only when:
1. He or she reasonably believes that the suspect possesses a deadly weapon or any object,
device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually
does result in serious bodily injury and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect
poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others; or
2. When there is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving
the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm (O.C.G.A. Section 17-4-20) and
the employee reasonably believes that the suspect’s escape would create a continuing
danger of serious physical harm to any person.

Anyone who doesn't think a person who has wrestled with police and successfully stolen a taser from the police during that wrestling does not pose a threat of serious bodily injury to others is either purposefully obtuse or just plain ignorant.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 18, 2020, 11:26:49 AM
Some of y'all really don't value human life, huh? Even if a cop was tasered, it's not a reason to murder someone ffs
Good thing no one was murdered.
Weird, I wonder why they're charging the cop with murder then? The other cops don't even want to defend this asshole. This is definitely not a situation where you're allowed to end a human life.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox5atlanta.com/news/fulton-county-da-charges-officers-involved-in-deadly-shooting-of-rayshard-brooks.amp
It is a situation where you are allowed to shoot.

Rest assured, those charges will not stand under scrutiny.
https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/ex-atlanta-officer-charged-with-murder-aggravated-assault-rayshard-brooks-shooting/XBWB3OZTM5D7ZCGSNWT6X2RPI4/ (https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/ex-atlanta-officer-charged-with-murder-aggravated-assault-rayshard-brooks-shooting/XBWB3OZTM5D7ZCGSNWT6X2RPI4/)

"However, Brosnan’s attorney said after Howard’s news conference that while his client is cooperating with the district attorney, he has not agreed to be a state witness or testify, WSB reported."
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 18, 2020, 12:06:20 PM
The taser had been discharged and could not be used to cause bodily harm as was pointed out by the prosecution.
That is correct.

The taser had been discharged.

Was it one of these?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser

"On July 27, 2009 TASER International released a new type of TASER device called the X3, which can fire three shots before reloading."

It appears the taser can be fired more than once before reloading.

As a matter of fact, the prosecution appears to be clearly contradicting itself when they claim:

"He (Howard) said that before shooting Brooks, Rolfe fired his stun gun twice at the fleeing man in another violation of department rules."

When you try to pull up APD. SOP. 3.042  the website has taken that link down.

I think I will file an FOIA for that one.

This is looking more and more like a straw stirred by people that want this country in a civil war.

Not to mention the lack of news regarding the fact that George Floyd and the cop knew each other...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 18, 2020, 12:09:36 PM
The taser had been discharged and could not be used to cause bodily harm as was pointed out by the prosecution.
That is correct.

The taser had been discharged.

Was it one of these?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser

"On July 27, 2009 TASER International released a new type of TASER device called the X3, which can fire three shots before reloading."

It appears the taser can be fired more than once before reloading.

As a matter of fact, the prosecution appears to be clearly contradicting itself when they claim:

"He (Howard) said that before shooting Brooks, Rolfe fired his stun gun twice at the fleeing man in another violation of department rules."

When you try to pull up APD. SOP. 3.042  the website has taken that link down.

I think I will file an FOIA for that one.

Fair enough. Thanks for pointing that out.

Quote
This is looking more and more like a straw stirred by people that want this country in a civil war.

Not to mention the lack of news regarding the fact that George Floyd and the cop knew each other...

Does them knowing each other mitigate the killing of George Floyd?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 18, 2020, 12:16:47 PM
Does them knowing each other mitigate the killing of George Floyd?
Of course not; however, it does throw water on the idea the killing had anything to do with race.

 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 18, 2020, 12:27:26 PM
Does them knowing each other mitigate the killing of George Floyd?
Of course not; however, it does throw water on the idea the killing had anything to do with race.

That doesn’t follow at all. You can know someone and still be racist towards them.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 18, 2020, 12:28:59 PM
I know why you took this approach, but I will just allow you to admit it by your continued silence toward the actual points raised.

How can an exchange of TWO posts, one from you posting the video, one from me in response, regarding the video, be interpreted as "continued silence" ... ?

Have to go, discussion of Tucker's text to follow ...

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 18, 2020, 12:42:47 PM
Does them knowing each other mitigate the killing of George Floyd?
Of course not; however, it does throw water on the idea the killing had anything to do with race.

That doesn’t follow at all. You can know someone and still be racist towards them.
It kinda does...had there been any indication of racism on the part Chauvin prior to this, especially with the way the media is right now, that most certainly would have been plastered all over the headlines.

No hate crime charges either...unless you want to write the DA and suggest that...let us know when you got that accomplished.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 18, 2020, 12:46:40 PM
I know why you took this approach, but I will just allow you to admit it by your continued silence toward the actual points raised.

How can an exchange of TWO posts, one from you posting the video, one from me in response, regarding the video, be interpreted as "continued silence" ... ?

Have to go, discussion of Tucker's text to follow ...
Your initial silence was taken as the indicator of continued silence regarding the actual points, based on prior behavior demonstrated by you when it comes to your attacking the messenger style.

If you want to discuss the actual points raised by Tucker, by all means, go ahead.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 18, 2020, 02:40:49 PM
Does them knowing each other mitigate the killing of George Floyd?
Of course not; however, it does throw water on the idea the killing had anything to do with race.

That doesn’t follow at all. You can know someone and still be racist towards them.
It kinda does...had there been any indication of racism on the part Chauvin prior to this, especially with the way the media is right now, that most certainly would have been plastered all over the headlines.

No hate crime charges either...unless you want to write the DA and suggest that...let us know when you got that accomplished.

I should be clearer, I am not sure if there is racism involved here, and neither are you.  I understand that in a court if there was a more likely motivation for Floyd's killing, then that would cast doubt on racism being a motivator.  Ultimately, this event was a flashpoint for the events that followed.  Another black man was unnecessarily killed by the police and the black people of the USA were fed up and for good reasons.  Black people, when you control for other factors, are over-represented to a suspicious degree and it's been going on for decades.  It isn't surprising that this happened, in the context of a tanking economy and people having nothing to distract them.  I am not saying I agree with the violence that has broken out, I don't but the peaceful protests are a positive and necessary force for change in the US.  Police need to be trained to a higher standard so they can be held to a higher standard, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 18, 2020, 03:08:42 PM
@totallackey

With regards to police training - since you are so keen on it - let's not forget that it is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away - don't you think that would apply to a gun as well? Police officers are also trained to give medical assistance to someone they have just shot - this officer just stood on him.
I have no clue where you got the idea that it is against Atlanta Police Department procedures to shoot someone who has a taser.

You conveniently ignored the latter part of the statement, so I'll restate it for you, only bolded this time:

"it is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away.

The man was shot in the back.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 18, 2020, 03:39:27 PM
4.2 Use of Deadly Force
(CALEA 6th ed. Standard 4.2.1)
An employee may use deadly force to apprehend a suspected felon only when:
1. He or she reasonably believes that the suspect possesses a deadly weapon or any object,
device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually
does result in serious bodily injury and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect
poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others; or
2. When there is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving
the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm (O.C.G.A. Section 17-4-20) and
the employee reasonably believes that the suspect’s escape would create a continuing
danger of serious physical harm to any person.

Anyone who doesn't think a person who has wrestled with police and successfully stolen a taser from the police during that wrestling does not pose a threat of serious bodily injury to others is either purposefully obtuse or just plain ignorant.

No. 2 is totally non-applicable to the Brooks case. No probable cause to suspect a prior crime, so first clause fails

No. 1 must satisfy both clauses, and whilst the first clause is clear, he was in possession of a taser, the second is not, as there had been no indication prior to him running away that he had any intent to cause harm, either to the public or to the officers. All that you can take from his actions is that he wanted to get away.

"... and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others"   
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: rooster on June 18, 2020, 04:04:01 PM
What benefit do any of us have from a police force that kills far too many people without cause and without repercussions?

Shooting people in the back while the victim is running away, shooting people in their own homes after they burst into the wrong house, shooting children with toys, suffocating people for suspicion of petty crimes, etc. No one benefits from this aside from the police and racists. But even racists should be scared of a police force that has no accountability. It will only grow worse if it continues unchecked and end up affecting them too. Unfortunately, some people are devoid of empathy and forethought and can't see that.

Like I said in my initial post, cops are largely ineffective in most situations. There's no point in them having this much money, power, and authority when it fails to serve the public. There are officers that also believe it's a problem. Politicians give them power to do too much, spreading their workforce too thin for stupid things they're not adequately trained for like dog-catching. Our country has many deep problems not only with systematic racism, but underfunded schools leading to shit education, underfunded resources for drug addiction, underfunded resources for homelessness, etc. And we ask the under-trained and often cowardly/racist police to deal with any problems that arise from these failings.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 18, 2020, 04:32:16 PM
In my own life, I have encountered police discrimination, specifically against black people, more than once:

1. My step father (a black man) was pulled over in Memphis, TN while driving my mother (a white woman) in her car. Upon coming up to the window, the officer looked at my mom and asked, "Is everything ok?". When my mom said, "yes!" the officer, pauses for a few moments, and says something like, "OK, just wanted to make sure." and sent them on their way. Clearly he was pulled over for "driving while black" AND suspicion of coercing/kidnapping a white woman.

2. My step father told me of a story in which he was stopped by two officers, I can't remember all the details, but they "arrested" him and drove him out to a lake outside of town where they proceeded to beat the living daylight out of him and left him for dead.

3. I was driving a friend of mine (a black man) to the hospital because he was having a major asthma attack and could not breathe. The hospital was 20 minutes away, so I was going about 90 MPH when I came upon a state trooper who was radaring. I see the officer, and immediately slow down and pull over because I assumed he would give us an escort of some kind once we realized my friend was minutes from dying. He did not. He looked at my friend, who is gasping for air and can barely mutter the words, "I can't breathe". The officer says, you need to go the speed limit, and he lets us go, but then proceeds to follow us down the highway (not lead, follows) to make sure I will not continue to speed. SeriouslY????? So f'd up. If my friend would have died that night, I would have held that officer personally responsible for failing to respond to an emergency and failing to help someone who was clearly in bad shape. Had my friend been white, I have no doubt he would have escorted us to the hospital.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 19, 2020, 08:07:37 AM
"Four months before he was killed, Rayshard Brooks opened up about his life and the US justice system. In the interview, Brooks says that the justice system treats people like 'animals'."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/jun/18/rayshard-brooks-says-us-justice-system-treats-people-like-animals-in-interview-before-his-death
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 19, 2020, 10:15:50 AM
Does them knowing each other mitigate the killing of George Floyd?
Of course not; however, it does throw water on the idea the killing had anything to do with race.

That doesn’t follow at all. You can know someone and still be racist towards them.
It kinda does...had there been any indication of racism on the part Chauvin prior to this, especially with the way the media is right now, that most certainly would have been plastered all over the headlines.

No hate crime charges either...unless you want to write the DA and suggest that...let us know when you got that accomplished.

I should be clearer, I am not sure if there is racism involved here, and neither are you.
Yeah, I am sure there isn't.
I understand that in a court if there was a more likely motivation for Floyd's killing, then that would cast doubt on racism being a motivator.  Ultimately, this event was a flashpoint for the events that followed.  Another black man was unnecessarily killed by the police and the black people of the USA were fed up and for good reasons.  Black people, when you control for other factors, are over-represented to a suspicious degree and it's been going on for decades.
Just good ole horse hockey.

Black people are not over represented.

When you commit more crime, you are going to encounter the police more often.

This goes for everyone.
It isn't surprising that this happened, in the context of a tanking economy and people having nothing to distract them.  I am not saying I agree with the violence that has broken out, I don't but the peaceful protests are a positive and necessary force for change in the US.
If you think anything is gonna change for the good out of this, you are blind.
Police need to be trained to a higher standard so they can be held to a higher standard, in my opinion.
An opinion is always a lovely thing.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 19, 2020, 10:19:33 AM
@totallackey

With regards to police training - since you are so keen on it - let's not forget that it is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away - don't you think that would apply to a gun as well? Police officers are also trained to give medical assistance to someone they have just shot - this officer just stood on him.
I have no clue where you got the idea that it is against Atlanta Police Department procedures to shoot someone who has a taser.

You conveniently ignored the latter part of the statement, so I'll restate it for you, only bolded this time:

"it is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away.

The man was shot in the back.
Really quite the chuckle from this...

Kindly post the policy...directly and put your own emphasis on those exact words as written in policy.

You know..."It is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away..."...that portion.

I will let you know right now I am sending you on a snipe hunt, as you will not find that in the Atlanta Police Department Policy Manual or SOP manual.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 19, 2020, 10:23:06 AM
4.2 Use of Deadly Force
(CALEA 6th ed. Standard 4.2.1)
An employee may use deadly force to apprehend a suspected felon only when:
1. He or she reasonably believes that the suspect possesses a deadly weapon or any object,
device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually
does result in serious bodily injury and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect
poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others; or
2. When there is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving
the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm (O.C.G.A. Section 17-4-20) and
the employee reasonably believes that the suspect’s escape would create a continuing
danger of serious physical harm to any person.

Anyone who doesn't think a person who has wrestled with police and successfully stolen a taser from the police during that wrestling does not pose a threat of serious bodily injury to others is either purposefully obtuse or just plain ignorant.

No. 2 is totally non-applicable to the Brooks case. No probable cause to suspect a prior crime, so first clause fails.
Bull cookies.

Rayshard Brooks already committed felony assault on a police officer prior to being shot.

That is more than probable cause.
No. 1 must satisfy both clauses, and whilst the first clause is clear, he was in possession of a taser, the second is not, as there had been no indication prior to him running away that he had any intent to cause harm, either to the public or to the officers. All that you can take from his actions is that he wanted to get away.

"... and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others"
Yeah, it was reasonable to assume Rayshard Brooks posed an immediate threat because he already committed the assault.

Please stop with the total BS.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 19, 2020, 10:31:30 AM
"Four months before he was killed, Rayshard Brooks opened up about his life and the US justice system. In the interview, Brooks says that the justice system treats people like 'animals'."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/jun/18/rayshard-brooks-says-us-justice-system-treats-people-like-animals-in-interview-before-his-death
Rayshard Brooks treated his children like animals.

Rayshard Brooks was a domestic abuser who treated his wife like an animal.

Thank God he cannot do that anymore.

Thank God this animal is gone.

He has no claim to being some sort of victim or saint.

At least one third of his life was dedicated toward victimizing others.

Definitely the last three minutes of his life were dedicated to victimize the police officer who justifiably shot that scumbag.

"Brooks was convicted of several crimes — including obstructing an officer, family battery violence, possessing weapons during a crime, receiving stolen property, felony cruelty to children, interfering with custody, false imprisonment, snatching his children without permission from the mother, and battery."

https://www.yc.news/2020/06/15/rayshard-brooks-own-family-accused-him-of-cruelty-to-children-family-battery-beatings/ (https://www.yc.news/2020/06/15/rayshard-brooks-own-family-accused-him-of-cruelty-to-children-family-battery-beatings/)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 19, 2020, 10:50:33 AM
What benefit do any of us have from a police force that kills far too many people without cause and without repercussions?
We all get more benefit from even imperfect police than from shitbag criminals who roam the streets with impunity and kill far more people.

As a matter of fact, even if the police in the US killed 1000 a year more of the people they deal with on a day to day basis, I would perceive police in the US as being of more benefit to society as a whole than those who died could ever hope to contribute.

Nice try though...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 19, 2020, 11:36:14 AM
Rayshard Brooks already committed felony assault on a police officer prior to being shot.

Does not satisfy clause 2, which states;

"probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm"

What "serious physical harm" to the officers?

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/13/us/atlanta-police-shooting-wendys/index.html

"Brooks was taken to a hospital, where he died, the statement said. One officer was treated for an injury and released, the GBI said." - Doesn't sound serious.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 19, 2020, 11:50:30 AM
Rayshard Brooks already committed felony assault on a police officer prior to being shot.

Does not satisfy clause 2, which states;

"probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm"

What "serious physical harm" to the officers?
Holy crap...

He had a taser, which he took from the officer, which he fired at the officer, and had already physically overcame the officer once in order to do that.

Probable cause was already established.

Firing a taser at someone threatens them with serious physical harm.

Rayshard Brooks did that.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/13/us/atlanta-police-shooting-wendys/index.html

"Brooks was taken to a hospital, where he died, the statement said. One officer was treated for an injury and released, the GBI said." - Doesn't sound serious.
Doesn't even matter if it was serious or not.

What matters is that Rayshard Brooks committed felony assault on a police officer, and threatened to inflict serious physical harm on the officer when he fired the taser at the police officer.

Probable cause was satisfied at that point.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible as you lack the ability to even satisfactorily interpret what you read in the procedure.

The case of Rayshard Brooks satisfied BOTH clauses and it only needed to satisfy ONE of the clauses.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: rooster on June 19, 2020, 03:16:54 PM
As a matter of fact, even if the police in the US killed 1000 a year more of the people they deal with on a day to day basis, I would perceive police in the US as being of more benefit to society as a whole than those who died could ever hope to contribute.
Literally what?

Alright, lol there's just no point. You clearly just hate people unless they put on a cop uniform. There's no reasonable way to think like this - wanting to uphold the useless and ineffective murder force over actually trying to fix shitty systems in place that create petty criminals and continues to push down petty criminals. Rich white dudes don't have to worry about the police or any crimes they commit.

Since you hate "criminals" so much, I'd think you'd be very interested in programs that help communities and children succeed which would ACTUALLY cut down on crime rates. Cops are just there so that people with blinders on can look the other way and be glad that the drunk black man is gone.

Your theoretical life of criminal "shitbags" roaming the streets is just your fantasy but cops murdering people is real and a huge fucking problem. But I'm done. You're clearly just a weird fascist troll or something.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 19, 2020, 03:53:35 PM
Firing a taser at someone threatens them with serious physical harm.

A taser has a limited range. Brooks was running away from the police officers. They should know the range in which it operates, and it stands to reason that the further he runs, the less likely or outright impossible it becomes that they will be in danger from it, in the hands of an untrained operator, as he moves farther and out of range.

They have the whole resources of their dept behind them, they've taken details of his car and his ID, and again, there's no indication Brooks meant any harm to any member of the public, so all they had to do was tail him at a distance

Doesn't even matter if it was serious or not.  The case of Rayshard Brooks satisfied BOTH clauses and it only needed to satisfy ONE of the clauses.

It does matter, because the use of force regs specify it. There are four clauses, in the form

1. (Clause 1) and (Clause 2); or
2. (Clause 3) and (Clause 4)

So either para 1 OR para 2 can justify use of force, but if applying one of these paras, then BOTH clauses in the numbered para MUST be satisfied. They are not.

Clause 1 fails because the taser is a temporary incapacitation device, not "likely to cause serious bodily injury"
Clause 2 fails due to lack of indicated intent to use the taser toward others, and by the holder of the taser running AWAY from the officers.

Clause 3 fails due to lack of "serious physical harm", and clause 4 fails because there cannot be a "continuing" threat of something that was lacking in the first place. 

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 19, 2020, 03:58:44 PM
In other news, police are now arresting, and threatening with arrest, pro-bono attorneys and public defenders, denying them access to their clients.

Police in Richmond are using snipers to shoot at the phones of protesters who attempt to document their experiences.

In another instance, police at ground level fired at the second floor of an apartment building, at someone who was videoing from within their own home.

Police in Bethel, Ohio, watched an assault on a BLM protester take place right in front of them, and did nothing to apprehend the assaulter.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 19, 2020, 08:34:37 PM
I wonder how much more this has to escalate before americans form a militia against the government just like their amendment allows for
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: garygreen on June 19, 2020, 08:57:26 PM
all i heard from the gop during the kavanaugh hearings was how outrageous it would be to deny someone a supreme court seat over a crime they were never convicted of.

but publicly executing black folks for crimes they were never convicted of is totally cool.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rushy on June 19, 2020, 09:37:28 PM
It's usually not Yale graduates with long histories of reputable employment and a complete lack of criminal records getting killed by cops. It's funny that this usually devolves into "his only crime was being black!" when the person in question usually has a long history of armed robbery, assault, and other combined factors that make their untimely demise at the hand of law enforcement seem less a case of racism and more a case of inevitability.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on June 19, 2020, 09:50:00 PM
It's usually not Yale graduates with long histories of reputable employment and a complete lack of criminal records getting killed by cops.

Rushy's right guys, these people tend to be lowlifes, why should they deserve special treatment like not being killed by cops?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rushy on June 19, 2020, 09:57:26 PM
It's usually not Yale graduates with long histories of reputable employment and a complete lack of criminal records getting killed by cops.

Rushy's right guys, these people tend to be lowlifes, why should they deserve special treatment like not being killed by cops?

It's usually what leads up to the killings. I'm not saying all of them are justifiable, but generally speaking, the people getting killed by cops are getting killed because they were/are violent people who resisted arrest in some form or another and warranted an escalated response. It is incredibly rare for a killing to involve someone who has no violent past and did nothing at all to cause a lethal reaction from law enforcement. It does happen, but not at such a rate that could be considered inherent to the system and not outliers.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on June 19, 2020, 10:02:11 PM
It's usually not Yale graduates with long histories of reputable employment and a complete lack of criminal records getting killed by cops.

Rushy's right guys, these people tend to be lowlifes, why should they deserve special treatment like not being killed by cops?

It's usually what leads up to the killings. I'm not saying all of them are justifiable, but generally speaking, the people getting killed by cops are getting killed because they were/are violent people who resisted arrest in some form or another and warranted an escalated response.

I mean, I don't know why you framed that like I was arguing, I agree with you. They should have known better than to be born in a disadvantaged position, if they were smart they would have been born to parents rich enough to send them to Yale. Those people aren't murdered by the cops when they're arrested for the crimes they commit like embezzling billions of dollars or whatnot. They get a nice cushy sentence in a country club.

But steal a pack of cigarettes and you're just asking to be murdered.

Shoulda known better.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rushy on June 19, 2020, 10:04:07 PM
I mean, I don't know why you framed that like I was arguing, I agree with you. They should have known better than to be born in a disadvantaged position, if they were smart they would have been born to parents rich enough to send them to Yale. Those people aren't murdered by the cops when they're arrested for the crimes they commit like embezzling billions of dollars or whatnot. They get a nice cushy sentence in a country club.

But steal a pack of cigarettes and you're just asking to be murdered.

Ah yes, armed robbery is the same as stealing a pack of cigarettes. Here's another show-stopper: crime rates don't correlate to poverty rates. Being born poor doesn't magically make you run around pointing guns at people and demanding their money.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on June 19, 2020, 10:06:58 PM
I mean, I don't know why you framed that like I was arguing, I agree with you. They should have known better than to be born in a disadvantaged position, if they were smart they would have been born to parents rich enough to send them to Yale. Those people aren't murdered by the cops when they're arrested for the crimes they commit like embezzling billions of dollars or whatnot. They get a nice cushy sentence in a country club.

But steal a pack of cigarettes and you're just asking to be murdered.

Ah yes, armed robbery is the same as stealing a pack of cigarettes.

No, it isn't. If the cops were just killing armed robbers we wouldn't be having a conversation about the cops killing unarmed black people, so strawman much?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rushy on June 19, 2020, 10:09:18 PM
I mean, I don't know why you framed that like I was arguing, I agree with you. They should have known better than to be born in a disadvantaged position, if they were smart they would have been born to parents rich enough to send them to Yale. Those people aren't murdered by the cops when they're arrested for the crimes they commit like embezzling billions of dollars or whatnot. They get a nice cushy sentence in a country club.

But steal a pack of cigarettes and you're just asking to be murdered.

Ah yes, armed robbery is the same as stealing a pack of cigarettes.

No, it isn't. If the cops were just killing armed robbers we wouldn't be having a conversation about the cops killing unarmed black people, so strawman much?

Sounds like you're the one making straw men here, because I didn't saying anything about whether it's okay to kill unarmed men (regardless of whether they're black or not). I suggest actually reading my posts in the future instead of making pointless "oh no no no I agree with you" charade posts.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on June 19, 2020, 10:13:38 PM
I mean, I don't know why you framed that like I was arguing, I agree with you. They should have known better than to be born in a disadvantaged position, if they were smart they would have been born to parents rich enough to send them to Yale. Those people aren't murdered by the cops when they're arrested for the crimes they commit like embezzling billions of dollars or whatnot. They get a nice cushy sentence in a country club.

But steal a pack of cigarettes and you're just asking to be murdered.

Ah yes, armed robbery is the same as stealing a pack of cigarettes.

No, it isn't. If the cops were just killing armed robbers we wouldn't be having a conversation about the cops killing unarmed black people, so strawman much?

Sounds like you're the one making straw men here, because I didn't saying anything about whether it's okay to kill unarmed men (regardless of whether they're black or not). I suggest actually reading my posts in the future instead of making pointless "oh no no no I agree with you" charade posts.

Well if your only point is that it's sometimes justified for the cops to kill somebody who's just committed armed robbery I don't think anybody here really disagrees with you, but I'm having trouble seeing why you felt it necessary to make that point since nobody was ever arguing against it.

So what was your point?   ???
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 19, 2020, 10:16:29 PM
It's usually what leads up to the killings.

... based on what metric, data or statistics?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 19, 2020, 10:20:48 PM
I was reading a paper (ironically from Yale) on racial bias in police interactions. Interestingly, police shootings were the one interaction they couldn’t find a statistically significant racial bias.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rushy on June 19, 2020, 10:27:17 PM
It's usually what leads up to the killings.

... based on what metric, data or statistics?

If that question were asked more often, BLM would currently not exist.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 19, 2020, 11:41:58 PM
It's usually what leads up to the killings.

... based on what metric, data or statistics?

If that question were asked more often, BLM would currently not exist.

There is data to show that black people are over represented in police violence when you control for a variety of factors. This isn’t all tilting at windmills.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 20, 2020, 12:09:05 AM
I mean, I don't know why you framed that like I was arguing, I agree with you. They should have known better than to be born in a disadvantaged position, if they were smart they would have been born to parents rich enough to send them to Yale. Those people aren't murdered by the cops when they're arrested for the crimes they commit like embezzling billions of dollars or whatnot. They get a nice cushy sentence in a country club.

But steal a pack of cigarettes and you're just asking to be murdered.

Ah yes, armed robbery is the same as stealing a pack of cigarettes. Here's another show-stopper: crime rates don't correlate to poverty rates. Being born poor doesn't magically make you run around pointing guns at people and demanding their money.
I partly don't disagree with what you've been saying in that people who get in trouble with police have tended to be the kind of person that would indeed get into trouble with the police. If you are a low life criminal that beats his girlfriends and neglects his kids, who steals and does drugs then sure, you are more likely to be involved in implications with the police. Though I guess part of the problem is if you grow up with all the people around you assuming you're going to be like that, you're going to end up like it. This is where the problem with racism kind of comes in because no one is born a criminal, they are raised into that life. They're discriminated against and treated differently, raised by parents who were also discriminated against and treated differently. It's entirely environmental and obviously if you treat white people that way they end up the same way too. The problem is when people by default treat black people with suspicion it ends up a self fulfilling prophecy.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 20, 2020, 01:33:07 AM
Inner-city marginalization accounts for a large percentage of criminal activity. Impoverished communities without resources for schools, community centers, and stable infrastructure.

As we have established, criminals aren't born, they are made. Poor communities without means for education, nor the resources to provide blue-collar jobs for those who cannot get educated leads to a cycle of crime, drug dealing, prostitution and violence. It turns out that poor communities can feed their children with money made from dealing drugs.

Society allows for a situation to exist that reinforces and legitimizes the underground criminal activity, and then it blames them for being violent drug dealing criminals.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 20, 2020, 02:07:54 AM
@totallackey

With regards to police training - since you are so keen on it - let's not forget that it is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away - don't you think that would apply to a gun as well? Police officers are also trained to give medical assistance to someone they have just shot - this officer just stood on him.
I have no clue where you got the idea that it is against Atlanta Police Department procedures to shoot someone who has a taser.

You conveniently ignored the latter part of the statement, so I'll restate it for you, only bolded this time:

"it is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away.

The man was shot in the back.
Really quite the chuckle from this...

Kindly post the policy...directly and put your own emphasis on those exact words as written in policy.

You know..."It is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away..."...that portion.

I will let you know right now I am sending you on a snipe hunt, as you will not find that in the Atlanta Police Department Policy Manual or SOP manual.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/atlanta-police-force-policy-violated-multiple-times-fatal/story?id=71295429

From the words of the district attorney:

"The Atlanta policy says you cannot fire a Taser at someone who is running away. So you certainly can't fire a handgun at someone who is running away," Howard said.

I guess he is just the attorney who represents the state of Georgia, so what does he know?

You're also just ignoring the rest of the facts.

1. The officer never informed Rayshard he was under arrest.

2. The police officer kicked Rayshard AFTER he shot him.

3. The police officer stood on Rayshard AFTER he shot him.

If the officer shot him solely because he felt he was a threat, why did he also feel the need to kick and stand on him afterwards rather than give him medical attention?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 20, 2020, 02:28:47 AM
I wonder how much more this has to escalate before americans form a militia against the government just like their amendment allows for

It's already happened:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/inside-seattles-autonomous-zone-residents-enact-change/story?id=71295394

Protestors have taken over a 6-block radius which also contains a police department. They are going all out 2nd amendment style.

Edit:

After some further reading, it seems clear there is a ton of misinformation about the so-called "autonomous zone".... here's an article that seems to be less-biased....

https://slate.com/technology/2020/06/seattle-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone-occupied-protest.html

and another...

https://grist.org/ask-umbra/what-is-seattles-autonomous-zone-trying-to-do/

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 20, 2020, 10:28:38 AM
NYPD EA openly accuses Shake Shack of poisoning their officers, walks back the accusation barely 12 hours later, but their website, days afterward, STILL has the accusation posted, and they've made no apology to Shake Shack for their false allegation and public smearing.

Their summary includes weasel words to distance themselves from the fact that THEY accused, using "It was reported ..." as opposed to 'fessing up with "We falsely accused someone of ...."

Am I the only one thinking that they're trying to get payback at someone who won't pay their protection racket?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 20, 2020, 02:44:46 PM
This comes at a pretty bad time

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/19/los-angeles-county-deputy-kills-man-allegedly-carrying-gun/
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 22, 2020, 07:48:41 AM
Columbus, Ohio - police have pepper-sprayed a double amputee, and then removed both his prosthetic legs. He had to crawl on his hands to get help, and a group of protestors had to rush the police line to grab them back.

T. Greg Doucette's Twitter thread of documented police brutality is now at almost 600 instances. As he says; "I did not have "stealing an amputee's prosthetics" on my Depraved Cop Sh*t bingo card"

In other news in Columbus, the Mayor announced that the police would no longer be using tear gas; in a polite and "respectful" letter, the Fraternal Order of Police, Capital City Lodge #9 has basically told the Mayor to take his "unilateral decision" and go f*ck himself, and they'll carry on doing what they did in training ....



 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 22, 2020, 08:16:49 AM
Inner-city marginalization accounts for a large percentage of criminal activity. Impoverished communities without resources for schools, community centers, and stable infrastructure.
Right. And people in such areas are disproportionately black and that's because of historic racist laws which prevented black people buying property in certain areas and stopped them getting mortgages on property in other areas. And that's why black people get profiled, not because of rampant racism, but because of crime statistics.
Which isn't to say racism isn't a thing, racism is an issue, police brutality is an issue - but let's get away from this myth that police in the US are running around indiscriminately gunning down black people. That just isn't true, it's something like 14 black people and 25 white who were unarmed and killed by police in 2019. And many of those were when the people were fleeing the scene.
This idea that a black person needs to fear for their life because of a systematically racist police force just isn't true if you look at the numbers.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 22, 2020, 09:50:42 AM
As a matter of fact, even if the police in the US killed 1000 a year more of the people they deal with on a day to day basis, I would perceive police in the US as being of more benefit to society as a whole than those who died could ever hope to contribute.
Literally what?

Alright, lol there's just no point. You clearly just hate people unless they put on a cop uniform. There's no reasonable way to think like this - wanting to uphold the useless and ineffective murder force over actually trying to fix shitty systems in place that create petty criminals and continues to push down petty criminals. Rich white dudes don't have to worry about the police or any crimes they commit.
LOL!
Since you hate "criminals" so much, I'd think you'd be very interested in programs that help communities and children succeed which would ACTUALLY cut down on crime rates. Cops are just there so that people with blinders on can look the other way and be glad that the drunk black man is gone.
Yeah, there are no programs in place...totally non-existent.
Your theoretical life of criminal "shitbags" roaming the streets is just your fantasy but cops murdering people is real and a huge fucking problem. But I'm done. You're clearly just a weird fascist troll or something.
Yep, there is nothing to these reports coming from Chicago or other urban areas...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 22, 2020, 09:56:24 AM
@totallackey

With regards to police training - since you are so keen on it - let's not forget that it is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away - don't you think that would apply to a gun as well? Police officers are also trained to give medical assistance to someone they have just shot - this officer just stood on him.
I have no clue where you got the idea that it is against Atlanta Police Department procedures to shoot someone who has a taser.

You conveniently ignored the latter part of the statement, so I'll restate it for you, only bolded this time:

"it is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away.

The man was shot in the back.
Really quite the chuckle from this...

Kindly post the policy...directly and put your own emphasis on those exact words as written in policy.

You know..."It is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away..."...that portion.

I will let you know right now I am sending you on a snipe hunt, as you will not find that in the Atlanta Police Department Policy Manual or SOP manual.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/atlanta-police-force-policy-violated-multiple-times-fatal/story?id=71295429

From the words of the district attorney:

"The Atlanta policy says you cannot fire a Taser at someone who is running away. So you certainly can't fire a handgun at someone who is running away," Howard said.
He is a liar.

No thing like that written in the SOP.
I guess he is just the attorney who represents the state of Georgia, so what does he know?
Not fucking much.
You're also just ignoring the rest of the facts.

1. The officer never informed Rayshard he was under arrest.
Yeah, he did.

2. The police officer kicked Rayshard AFTER he shot him.
No, he didn't.
3. The police officer stood on Rayshard AFTER he shot him.
Why?
If the officer shot him solely because he felt he was a threat, why did he also feel the need to kick and stand on him afterwards rather than give him medical attention?
Never kicked him, stop lying.

They performed CPR and called paramedics.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 22, 2020, 10:34:21 AM
From the words of the district attorney:

"The Atlanta policy says you cannot fire a Taser at someone who is running away. So you certainly can't fire a handgun at someone who is running away," Howard said.

He is a liar.

I guess he is just the attorney who represents the state of Georgia, so what does he know?

Not fucking much.

USA Today spoke with four law professors on the Brooks case

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/17/rayshard-brooks-video-legal-experts-analyze-key-moments-shooting/3202332001/

Are there any Law Professors here?

From the USA Today article

"At one point, about 38 minutes into the encounter, Brooks asks if he can lock his car and walk to his sister’s house a short distance away.  ...  Up to that point, police had not administered a breathalyzer test. "

Can there be any valid reason for the officers to spend almost 40 minutes with this man PRIOR TO conducting the breath test?

Think about it. Forty minutes. Why would they do that?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 22, 2020, 11:51:52 AM
From the words of the district attorney:

"The Atlanta policy says you cannot fire a Taser at someone who is running away. So you certainly can't fire a handgun at someone who is running away," Howard said.

He is a liar.

I guess he is just the attorney who represents the state of Georgia, so what does he know?

Not fucking much.

USA Today spoke with four law professors on the Brooks case

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/17/rayshard-brooks-video-legal-experts-analyze-key-moments-shooting/3202332001/

Are there any Law Professors here?

From the USA Today article

"At one point, about 38 minutes into the encounter, Brooks asks if he can lock his car and walk to his sister’s house a short distance away.  ...  Up to that point, police had not administered a breathalyzer test. "

Can there be any valid reason for the officers to spend almost 40 minutes with this man PRIOR TO conducting the breath test?

Think about it. Forty minutes. Why would they do that?
Have you seen the 40 minutes?

Watch the entire tape.

Get back with us.

Further, reading just the first few paragraphs of that BS article reveals your legal experts to be frauds.

Searches do not totally remove the possibility of a suspect being armed and police are trained to treat everyone as being armed during apprehension.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 22, 2020, 12:06:28 PM
Can there be any valid reason for the officers to spend almost 40 minutes with this man PRIOR TO conducting the breath test?
Think about it. Forty minutes. Why would they do that?

Have you seen the 40 minutes?

Watch the entire tape.

Are you saying there was a valid reason to talk for almost 40 minutes before performing the breath test?

What would that reason be?

EDIT - Regardless of what was said to him, this is a process that could and should be wrapped up within minutes. The officers should know within that time if they're going to do a breath test or not. Once that's decided, they should go ahead and do it. 5 mins? 10?

Maybe half an hour to do the paperwork AFTER the breath test is done, but what reason is there to gossip for almost 40 minutes before?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 22, 2020, 12:14:06 PM
Can there be any valid reason for the officers to spend almost 40 minutes with this man PRIOR TO conducting the breath test?
Think about it. Forty minutes. Why would they do that?

Have you seen the 40 minutes?

Watch the entire tape.

Are you saying there was a valid reason to talk for almost 40 minutes before performing the breath test?

What would that reason be?
I am asking you to watch the encounter for 38 minutes leading up to the breath test.

Let us know what you come up with.

Given the rest of the information we have available from the news on this matter, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out this too is a bunch of BS.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 22, 2020, 01:59:11 PM
I am asking you to watch the encounter for 38 minutes leading up to the breath test.  Let us know what you come up with.

So you haven't come up with a good reason, then?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 22, 2020, 02:09:20 PM
I am asking you to watch the encounter for 38 minutes leading up to the breath test.  Let us know what you come up with.

So you haven't come up with a good reason, then?
Actually, I am trying to come up with a good reason for Rayshard to abuse his kids, commit battery on his wife, drink and drive and put other peoples lives at risk by doing so...once I come up with a good reason for that, then I will move on to the issue of the police having a conversation with the scumbag.

Join me, will you?

I am sure you can come up with excellent reasons why Rayshard did all these things.

Maybe you should start up some sort of advocacy group for people who want to do these things without social consequence.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 22, 2020, 02:30:42 PM
I am asking you to watch the encounter for 38 minutes leading up to the breath test.  Let us know what you come up with.

So you haven't come up with a good reason, then?
Actually, I am trying to come up with a good reason for Rayshard to abuse his kids, commit battery on his wife, drink and drive and put other peoples lives at risk by doing so...once I come up with a good reason for that, then I will move on to the issue of the police having a conversation with the scumbag.

Join me, will you?

I am sure you can come up with excellent reasons why Rayshard did all these things.

Maybe you should start up some sort of advocacy group for people who want to do these things without social consequence.

Someone being a shitbag doesn’t entitle the government to summary execution of this person. How can you deal with the issue at hand if you bring in irrelevant moral issues?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 22, 2020, 02:42:22 PM
I am asking you to watch the encounter for 38 minutes leading up to the breath test.  Let us know what you come up with.

So you haven't come up with a good reason, then?
Actually, I am trying to come up with a good reason for Rayshard to abuse his kids, commit battery on his wife, drink and drive and put other peoples lives at risk by doing so...once I come up with a good reason for that, then I will move on to the issue of the police having a conversation with the scumbag.

Join me, will you?

I am sure you can come up with excellent reasons why Rayshard did all these things.

Maybe you should start up some sort of advocacy group for people who want to do these things without social consequence.

Someone being a shitbag doesn’t entitle the government to summary execution of this person. How can you deal with the issue at hand if you bring in irrelevant moral issues?
I can deal with the issue at hand because I am not bringing up "irrelevant moral issues."

Yeah, it was totally relevant that Rayshard was the one drinking and driving that night and thinking it would be a good thing to sleep it off in the drive thru lane at a Wendy's because that was the type of shitbag he was...what he wanted was fine and as long as everyone went along with that notion then Rayshard was cool.

If they kill a 1000 more Rayshards, I'm all for it.

Better than them killing me or one of my family.

He wasn't executed.

Execution is reserved for a court to decide.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 22, 2020, 02:50:36 PM
I can deal with the issue at hand because I am not bringing up "irrelevant moral issues."

Yeah, it was totally relevant that Rayshard was the one drinking and driving that night and thinking it would be a good thing to sleep it off in the drive thru lane at a Wendy's because that was the type of shitbag he was...what he wanted was fine and as long as everyone went along with that notion then Rayshard was cool.

Yeah he was DUI. That’s fine. His past was irrelevant to this police stop.

Quote
If they kill a 1000 more Rayshards, I'm all for it.

Better than them killing me or one of my family.

There are your true colours.

Quote
He wasn't executed.

Execution is reserved for a court to decide.

Fair enough. They willfully took his life while depriving him of due process. It’s sad that word games make you feel better about this.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 22, 2020, 02:57:53 PM
I can deal with the issue at hand because I am not bringing up "irrelevant moral issues."

Yeah, it was totally relevant that Rayshard was the one drinking and driving that night and thinking it would be a good thing to sleep it off in the drive thru lane at a Wendy's because that was the type of shitbag he was...what he wanted was fine and as long as everyone went along with that notion then Rayshard was cool.

Yeah he was DUI. That’s fine. His past was irrelevant to this police stop.
It's all relevant.

Past behavior is the best predictor for future behavior.

One more incident in a long line of incidents demonstrating that Rayshard believed himself to be better than everyone else.. "I'm gonna drive drunk...I'll park where I want...Fuck you, you don't count...You better lemme do this or else!!!"
Quote
If they kill a 1000 more Rayshards, I'm all for it.

Better than them killing me or one of my family.

There are your true colours.
Flying them proudly too...no bones about it...
Quote
He wasn't executed.

Execution is reserved for a court to decide.

Fair enough. They willfully took his life while depriving him of due process. It’s sad that word games make you feel better about this.
You stop playing word games.

The police didn't willfully take his life.

Denied due process my ass.

Rayshard didn't even understand the words, "due process."

Had he, he would have cooperated with police and accepted the responsibility he had to do so once he was told to place his hands behind his back and cuff up.

Stop lying.

I don't need to rely on word games to feel good about this.

The more Rayshards that die, the better off everyone will be.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 22, 2020, 03:37:15 PM
I can deal with the issue at hand because I am not bringing up "irrelevant moral issues."

Yeah, it was totally relevant that Rayshard was the one drinking and driving that night and thinking it would be a good thing to sleep it off in the drive thru lane at a Wendy's because that was the type of shitbag he was...what he wanted was fine and as long as everyone went along with that notion then Rayshard was cool.

Yeah he was DUI. That’s fine. His past was irrelevant to this police stop.
It's all relevant.

Past behavior is the best predictor for future behavior.

One more incident in a long line of incidents demonstrating that Rayshard believed himself to be better than everyone else.. "I'm gonna drive drunk...I'll park where I want...Fuck you, you don't count...You better lemme do this or else!!!"

I’m waiting for the part where it justifies his killing.


Quote
Quote
If they kill a 1000 more Rayshards, I'm all for it.

Better than them killing me or one of my family.

There are your true colours.
Flying them proudly too...no bones about it...

So you believe vigilante justice is better than a system of law and order?

Quote
Quote
He wasn't executed.

Execution is reserved for a court to decide.

Fair enough. They willfully took his life while depriving him of due process. It’s sad that word games make you feel better about this.
You stop playing word games.

The police didn't willfully take his life.

Stop lying.

I don't need to rely on word games to feel good about this.

The police put two rounds in his back on purpose. You can delude yourself in to thinking they didn’t intend to kill him, but that won’t make it true.

Quote
The more Rayshards that die, the better off everyone will be.

So revenge is the government’s job in your opinion?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 22, 2020, 03:47:45 PM
I can deal with the issue at hand because I am not bringing up "irrelevant moral issues."

Yeah, it was totally relevant that Rayshard was the one drinking and driving that night and thinking it would be a good thing to sleep it off in the drive thru lane at a Wendy's because that was the type of shitbag he was...what he wanted was fine and as long as everyone went along with that notion then Rayshard was cool.

Yeah he was DUI. That’s fine. His past was irrelevant to this police stop.
It's all relevant.

Past behavior is the best predictor for future behavior.

One more incident in a long line of incidents demonstrating that Rayshard believed himself to be better than everyone else.. "I'm gonna drive drunk...I'll park where I want...Fuck you, you don't count...You better lemme do this or else!!!"

I’m waiting for the part where it justifies his killing.
When you fight with police, cause one of them a concussion, steal their equipment, and fire at them, then you are going to get shot.

End of story.

You can cry about it all you want.
So you believe vigilante justice is better than a system of law and order?
Last time I checked, these guys were sworn police officers who did the right thing.

There were no vigilantes.

They justifiably shot a fleeing suspect who had committed assault on police.

The suspect died as a result of the shooting.
The police put two rounds in his back on purpose. You can delude yourself in to thinking they didn’t intend to kill him, but that won’t make it true.
They intended to shoot him.

You pretending to know more than that doesn't make it true.

It makes your view on this fraudulent.
Quote
The more Rayshards that die, the better off everyone will be.

So revenge is the government’s job in your opinion?
Revenge for what?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 22, 2020, 03:59:57 PM
When you fight with police, cause one of them a concussion, steal their equipment, and fire at them, then you are going to get shot.

End of story.

You can cry about it all you want.

He didn't fire the taser.  Why are you making shit up?

Quote
Last time I checked, these guys were sworn police officers who did the right thing.

They justifiably shot a fleeing suspect who had committed assault on police.

That is for the courts to decide isn't it?  Regardless you are hoping for police to kill more people you don't like simply because you don't like them.  That isn't how the justice system works in your country, it's just you want to satisfy a weird feeling of vengeance you have.

Quote
The suspect died as a result of the shooting.

Yes, everyone knows that.

Quote
They intended to shoot him.

You pretending to know more than that doesn't make it true.

Fortunately the legal standard doesn't require anyone to know more than the facts of the case and judge what a reasonable police officer would do.

Quote
Revenge for what?

For being someone who did something you didn't like.  You want agents of the government to go around killing people who have committed crimes for which they have already been convicted of, that aren't even capital crimes.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 22, 2020, 04:03:16 PM
When you fight with police, cause one of them a concussion, steal their equipment, and fire at them, then you are going to get shot.

End of story.

You can cry about it all you want.

He didn't fire the taser.  Why are you making shit up?
He did fire the taser.
Quote
Last time I checked, these guys were sworn police officers who did the right thing.

They justifiably shot a fleeing suspect who had committed assault on police.

That is for the courts to decide isn't it?  Regardless you are hoping for police to kill more people you don't like simply because you don't like them.  That isn't how the justice system works in your country, it's just you want to satisfy a weird feeling of vengeance you have.
I never stated I wanted police to do more killing.

Stop lying.
Quote
The suspect died as a result of the shooting.

Yes, everyone knows that.
Evidently you do not.

They intended to shoot him.

You pretending to know more than that doesn't make it true.
Fortunately the legal standard doesn't require anyone to know more than the facts of the case and judge what a reasonable police officer would do.
Then stop writing things that are nowhere near the facts of the case.
Quote
Revenge for what?

For being someone who did something you didn't like.  You want agents of the government to go around killing people who have committed crimes for which they have already been convicted of, that aren't even capital crimes.
Who wrote that?

I never wrote that.

Stop lying.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 22, 2020, 04:16:18 PM
Quote
I never stated I wanted police to do more killing.

Stop lying.

sigh


If they kill a 1000 more Rayshards, I'm all for it.


Quote
Then stop writing things that are nowhere near the facts of the case.

I'm not.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Revenge for what?

For being someone who did something you didn't like.  You want agents of the government to go around killing people who have committed crimes for which they have already been convicted of, that aren't even capital crimes.
Who wrote that?

I never wrote that.

Stop lying.

I quoted you above expressing a desire to have the police kill people like Rayshard Brooks in the hundreds.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 22, 2020, 04:38:16 PM
Quote
I never stated I wanted police to do more killing.

Stop lying.

sigh


If they kill a 1000 more Rayshards, I'm all for it.


Quote
Then stop writing things that are nowhere near the facts of the case.

I'm not.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Revenge for what?

For being someone who did something you didn't like.  You want agents of the government to go around killing people who have committed crimes for which they have already been convicted of, that aren't even capital crimes.
Who wrote that?

I never wrote that.

Stop lying.

I quoted you above expressing a desire to have the police kill people like Rayshard Brooks in the hundreds.
I wrote exactly what I wrote.

Naturally, you find a way for that to equal a hope on my part for it to happen.

Which is obviously not true.

Thankfully, most people understand to let due process play out and go with police when busted.

Which you miss...

Just another disingenuous characterization of my position on your part.

But by all means, I suggest you take your message of "due process," to the streets of Buffalo and Chicago, where the scum like Rayshard could use it in their practice of peaceful coexistence.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 23, 2020, 12:53:34 PM
Are the NYPD out of control?

750 complaints about NYPD abuse in 2 weeks, with 129 separate incidents reported

The Civilian Complaint Review Board has a backlog of almost 3000 cases

https://www.propublica.org/article/my-family-saw-a-police-car-hit-a-kid-on-halloween-then-i-learned-how-nypd-impunity-works

EDIT for speeling
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on June 24, 2020, 04:50:33 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/22/seattle-dismantle-chaz-protest-zone

Well, it was a nice experiment. If nothing else it demonstrated the importance of having police around, I mean who could have ever predicted that a lack of police presence would lead to increased crime?    ::)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 25, 2020, 11:23:29 AM
Pre-protest, but; four deputies beat the sh*t out of a handcuffed Reg Arrington Jr. with their riot batons, for the heinous crime of ... walking on the wrong side of the road.

Charges against him have now been dropped, and an excessive force lawsuit has been filed.

https://www.wrcbtv.com/story/42280266/watch-sheriff-responds-to-hamilton-co-das-release-of-video-at-center-of-excessive-force-investigation
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 25, 2020, 11:30:20 AM
Pre-protest, but; four deputies beat the sh*t out of a handcuffed Reg Arrington Jr. with their riot batons, for the heinous crime of ... walking on the wrong side of the road.

Charges against him have now been dropped, and an excessive force lawsuit has been filed.

https://www.wrcbtv.com/story/42280266/watch-sheriff-responds-to-hamilton-co-das-release-of-video-at-center-of-excessive-force-investigation
Looks like they beat the shit out of him for failing to cooperate.

Once he was in cuffs, all he had to do was keep walking to the police car and get in.

Seems he didn't want to.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 25, 2020, 11:37:10 AM
Looks like they beat the shit out of him for failing to cooperate.

Looks like excessive force, then. The job of the police is not to "beat the shit" out of someone for trivial matters such as this. He was handcuffed. They should be able to control someone in handcuffs, I've seen British police do this with ease. If they cannot control someone already in handcuffs, they are remarkably poor at the business of police work. 

Why can't four deputies manage to get one person under control without it turning into a disaster area where they lose control, lose self-control, and over-escalate to the point where even their own chief is disgusted at them? Don't they get trained in this stuff? 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 25, 2020, 11:47:42 AM
Looks like they beat the shit out of him for failing to cooperate.

Looks like excessive force, then. The job of the police is not to "beat the shit" out of someone for trivial matters such as this. He was handcuffed. They should be able to control someone in handcuffs, I've seen British police do this with ease. If they cannot control someone already in handcuffs, they are remarkably poor at the business of police work. 

Why can't four deputies manage to get one person under control without it turning into a disaster area where they lose control, lose self-control, and over-escalate to the point where even their own chief is disgusted at them? Don't they get trained in this stuff?
Yes.

They do get trained in this stuff.

Just like minorities get trained to pull the race card every time they want to do what they want to do without logical consequence.

Nice broad brush you are using.

And police in England have probably had difficulty handling people already in handcuffs, whether you want to admit it or not.

You are acting like Manchester U or Liverpool is unavailable to us yanks.

I've seen those crowds...

Keep up the rhetoric!

You will get what you want eventually!

Whatever that is....
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on June 25, 2020, 04:02:15 PM
Looks like they beat the shit out of him for failing to cooperate.

Looks like excessive force, then. The job of the police is not to "beat the shit" out of someone for trivial matters such as this. He was handcuffed. They should be able to control someone in handcuffs, I've seen British police do this with ease. If they cannot control someone already in handcuffs, they are remarkably poor at the business of police work. 

Why can't four deputies manage to get one person under control without it turning into a disaster area where they lose control, lose self-control, and over-escalate to the point where even their own chief is disgusted at them? Don't they get trained in this stuff?
Yes.

They do get trained in this stuff.

Just like minorities get trained to pull the race card every time they want to do what they want to do without logical consequence.

Nice broad brush you are using.

And police in England have probably had difficulty handling people already in handcuffs, whether you want to admit it or not.

You are acting like Manchester U or Liverpool is unavailable to us yanks.

I've seen those crowds...

Keep up the rhetoric!

You will get what you want eventually!

Whatever that is....

Either the police were racist or incompetent in this case. The later is probably more likely.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on June 25, 2020, 08:04:07 PM
Just like minorities get trained to pull the race card every time they want to do what they want to do without logical consequence.

Now that's an interesting claim.

Let's say this is true.... who's training them to pull the race card?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on June 25, 2020, 08:05:37 PM
Just like minorities get trained to pull the race card every time they want to do what they want to do without logical consequence.

Now that's an interesting claim.

Let's say this is true.... who's training them to pull the race card?

The liberal media, of course.   ::)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 26, 2020, 09:59:33 AM
Again, pre-protests, but footage has emerged of a Miami Gardens officer tasing a pregnant woman in the stomach while he has her pinned on the ground with his knee on her neck. According to some reporting, she later lost the baby. Over a minor argument in a night club.

He was fired, and has now been charged with battery. Apparently, the officer was working "off-duty security" at the time... 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on June 26, 2020, 10:06:08 AM
Police, not protesters, are overwhelmingly responsible for attacks on journalists

See pressfredomtracker.us

440+ reported aggressions against the press during BLM protests
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 26, 2020, 10:12:10 AM
Just like minorities get trained to pull the race card every time they want to do what they want to do without logical consequence.

Now that's an interesting claim.

Let's say this is true.... who's training them to pull the race card?
Life.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 26, 2020, 10:36:15 AM
Just like minorities get trained to pull the race card every time they want to do what they want to do without logical consequence.

Now that's an interesting claim.

Let's say this is true.... who's training them to pull the race card?
Life.
Yes I imagine a life full of racism would train them to point out racism toward them.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 26, 2020, 10:47:56 AM
Just like minorities get trained to pull the race card every time they want to do what they want to do without logical consequence.

Now that's an interesting claim.

Let's say this is true.... who's training them to pull the race card?
Life.
Yes I imagine a life full of racism would train them to point out racism toward them.
Why do you have such an easy time ignoring the injustice of others directed at you?

I know why I do.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 26, 2020, 12:31:07 PM
Just like minorities get trained to pull the race card every time they want to do what they want to do without logical consequence.

Now that's an interesting claim.

Let's say this is true.... who's training them to pull the race card?
Life.
Yes I imagine a life full of racism would train them to point out racism toward them.
Why do you have such an easy time ignoring the injustice of others directed at you?

I know why I do.
I'm not sure I fully understand your question, can you explain? I don't think I'm ignoring any injustice and I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'injustice of others directed at me'. Which injustice, at who others and how is any of that directed at me?

You say people are trained by life to pull the race card, I agree with you, a lifetime full of racism toward a person would make them quicker to point out racism toward them. I'm fully acknowledging the injustice of racial discrimination.

If you know why you have an easy time ignoring racial discrimination and injustice by all means tell us.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 29, 2020, 11:58:10 AM
Just like minorities get trained to pull the race card every time they want to do what they want to do without logical consequence.

Now that's an interesting claim.

Let's say this is true.... who's training them to pull the race card?
Life.
Yes I imagine a life full of racism would train them to point out racism toward them.
Why do you have such an easy time ignoring the injustice of others directed at you?

I know why I do.
I'm not sure I fully understand your question, can you explain? I don't think I'm ignoring any injustice and I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'injustice of others directed at me'. Which injustice, at who others and how is any of that directed at me?
Injustice occurs toward you each day, does it not?
You say people are trained by life to pull the race card, I agree with you, a lifetime full of racism toward a person would make them quicker to point out racism toward them. I'm fully acknowledging the injustice of racial discrimination.
I find it hard to believe you are so quick to accept the word of another regarding racial injustice, having experienced none yourself.

How do you know it is real?
If you know why you have an easy time ignoring racial discrimination and injustice by all means tell us.
I do not try and guess the motivation of others when they commit acts of injustice.

I simply realize it is an unjust act, call it such, and realize life is not fair and never was and never will be.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 29, 2020, 04:23:32 PM
Quote
I find it hard to believe you are so quick to accept the word of another regarding racial injustice, having experienced none yourself.
What makes you say that? What a strange stance since you've seen literally 0% of my life experiences and you've no idea what I look like or what my background is. I've certainly had people discriminate me based on race and gender (in fact it's the trendy thing to do at universities by 'woke' students at the moment). I've experienced injustice, even if it's not to the degree of getting shot at by police. Regardless, it's pretty obvious based on the vast amounts of evidence that racism exists and it goes both ways, but one way has been more extreme. Hell I've had people pull the race card on me even though I'd consider myself rather of accepting (or rather I don't give a shit) of peoples race so it's not to say people don't randomly pull the race card at every chance because some do. If racism didn't exist people wouldn't think to pull a race card though.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: TomInAustin on June 29, 2020, 04:24:23 PM
https://imgur.com/gallery/qnpKl0j

Defence lawyer's Twitter thread of instances of unprovoked, almost casual brutality from the police has reached over 300 entries now.

In the instance above, elderly man pushed over by police, cracks head on concrete, and they casually walk past him like he's a piece of trash

Wheelchair-bound homeless guy in LA shot and blinded in one eye

Journalist ordered to lie face down, while waving his press credentials and pleading to be let up, a group of cops walk past, and one of them casually pepper sprays him, apparently out of spite.

Numerous cases of people blinded or injured from close-quarters hits from rubber bullets and such

Utah police rush up to clearly fragile older man WITH A WALKING STICK and jostle him along the road until he falls.

Woman is sitting on ground, face covered, apparently from effects of pepper spray, and cop walks up and casually kicks her over.

etc

etc

@greg_doucette



This is a 2 sided problem when it comes to inner cities and poor people.   

1.  The Police are undertrained, underpaid, and under-educated.    They developed an "us against them" mentality and it shows.
2.  You have vast areas of people that have lived with poverty for generations.  Except for a few outliers, no one succeeds and those few have left.   The young people have no one to look up to besides the criminals that have money, nice cars, clothes, guns, etc.


Now put these 2 groups together and it's no surprise that shit hits the fan.



Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 30, 2020, 10:06:02 AM
Quote
I find it hard to believe you are so quick to accept the word of another regarding racial injustice, having experienced none yourself.
What makes you say that? What a strange stance since you've seen literally 0% of my life experiences and you've no idea what I look like or what my background is. I've certainly had people discriminate me based on race and gender (in fact it's the trendy thing to do at universities by 'woke' students at the moment). I've experienced injustice, even if it's not to the degree of getting shot at by police. Regardless, it's pretty obvious based on the vast amounts of evidence that racism exists and it goes both ways, but one way has been more extreme. Hell I've had people pull the race card on me even though I'd consider myself rather of accepting (or rather I don't give a shit) of peoples race so it's not to say people don't randomly pull the race card at every chance because some do. If racism didn't exist people wouldn't think to pull a race card though.
This is laughable.

In the very first question I asked you about injustices and you provided no background whatsoever, demonstrating you are not even interested in a serious discussion, further evidenced by ignoring the actual question.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 30, 2020, 11:33:37 AM
Quote
I find it hard to believe you are so quick to accept the word of another regarding racial injustice, having experienced none yourself.
What makes you say that? What a strange stance since you've seen literally 0% of my life experiences and you've no idea what I look like or what my background is. I've certainly had people discriminate me based on race and gender (in fact it's the trendy thing to do at universities by 'woke' students at the moment). I've experienced injustice, even if it's not to the degree of getting shot at by police. Regardless, it's pretty obvious based on the vast amounts of evidence that racism exists and it goes both ways, but one way has been more extreme. Hell I've had people pull the race card on me even though I'd consider myself rather of accepting (or rather I don't give a shit) of peoples race so it's not to say people don't randomly pull the race card at every chance because some do. If racism didn't exist people wouldn't think to pull a race card though.
This is laughable.

In the very first question I asked you about injustices and you provided no background whatsoever, demonstrating you are not even interested in a serious discussion, further evidenced by ignoring the actual question.
Because we aren't here to discuss my personal injustices, we're here to talk about whether or not the US police force are competent. This has nothing to do with my life here in the UK. I'm not going to tell you my life story when it has no relevance to the topic (and is really my business whether I share information about my life).
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 30, 2020, 11:40:30 AM
Quote
I find it hard to believe you are so quick to accept the word of another regarding racial injustice, having experienced none yourself.
What makes you say that? What a strange stance since you've seen literally 0% of my life experiences and you've no idea what I look like or what my background is. I've certainly had people discriminate me based on race and gender (in fact it's the trendy thing to do at universities by 'woke' students at the moment). I've experienced injustice, even if it's not to the degree of getting shot at by police. Regardless, it's pretty obvious based on the vast amounts of evidence that racism exists and it goes both ways, but one way has been more extreme. Hell I've had people pull the race card on me even though I'd consider myself rather of accepting (or rather I don't give a shit) of peoples race so it's not to say people don't randomly pull the race card at every chance because some do. If racism didn't exist people wouldn't think to pull a race card though.
This is laughable.

In the very first question I asked you about injustices and you provided no background whatsoever, demonstrating you are not even interested in a serious discussion, further evidenced by ignoring the actual question.
Because we aren't here to discuss my personal injustices, we're here to talk about whether or not the US police force are competent. This has nothing to do with my life here in the UK. I'm not going to tell you my life story when it has no relevance to the topic (and is really my business whether I share information about my life).
If you have no experience with the American police or forms of injustice then you really have no worthwhile insight in the topic at all.

Neither does Tumeni.

You are incapable of even drawing correlation between any of your experiences and that of persons involved with the American system.

Even offering you the benefit of doubt when it comes to such a function, you do not want to discuss it within this most worthwhile framework due to its exposition demonstrating the bankruptcy of your overall message.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 30, 2020, 12:11:10 PM
Quote
I find it hard to believe you are so quick to accept the word of another regarding racial injustice, having experienced none yourself.
What makes you say that? What a strange stance since you've seen literally 0% of my life experiences and you've no idea what I look like or what my background is. I've certainly had people discriminate me based on race and gender (in fact it's the trendy thing to do at universities by 'woke' students at the moment). I've experienced injustice, even if it's not to the degree of getting shot at by police. Regardless, it's pretty obvious based on the vast amounts of evidence that racism exists and it goes both ways, but one way has been more extreme. Hell I've had people pull the race card on me even though I'd consider myself rather of accepting (or rather I don't give a shit) of peoples race so it's not to say people don't randomly pull the race card at every chance because some do. If racism didn't exist people wouldn't think to pull a race card though.
This is laughable.

In the very first question I asked you about injustices and you provided no background whatsoever, demonstrating you are not even interested in a serious discussion, further evidenced by ignoring the actual question.
Because we aren't here to discuss my personal injustices, we're here to talk about whether or not the US police force are competent. This has nothing to do with my life here in the UK. I'm not going to tell you my life story when it has no relevance to the topic (and is really my business whether I share information about my life).
If you have no experience with the American police or forms of injustice then you really have no worthwhile insight in the topic at all.

Neither does Tumeni.

You are incapable of even drawing correlation between any of your experiences and that of persons involved with the American system.

Even offering you the benefit of doubt when it comes to such a function, you do not want to discuss it within this most worthwhile framework due to its exposition demonstrating the bankruptcy of your overall message.
Lol... Just because I don't live in america doesn't mean I've never been to america or seen anything to do with american law enforcement. This a really strange opinion for you to have, given that it would mean you can't have an opinion on literally anything unless it's something related directly to yourself.

Just the other day you used LiverpoolFC as an example for how English people and the English police force act. I guess that point of yours is void? Since you don't live in the UK and aren't a footballer or a UK police officer or football hooligan in Liverpool? Of course not, you can still have an outside view of something. You can still see stuff happening via media or first hand experience when going on holidays. I don't have to be living in the US to see that some US officers are breaking the law or discriminating against race. I don't need to have been there at the time of an incident to see that there was an incident when there's video footage of an incident. There's documented evidence of that stuff for me to see. Just like everyone else in this thread that isn't from the US, I can have a viewpoint of the US. In fact people all around the globe has an opinion about the US.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 30, 2020, 12:19:35 PM
Lol... Just because I don't live in america doesn't mean I've never been to america or seen anything to do with american law enforcement. This a really strange opinion for you to have, given that it would mean you can't have an opinion on literally anything unless it's something related directly to yourself.
I didn't write you couldn't have an opinion.

I wrote your opinion is worth no consideration by others unless presented within a framework.
Just the other day you used LiverpoolFC as an example for how English people and the English police force act. I guess that point of yours is void? Since you don't live in the UK and aren't a footballer or a UK police officer or football hooligan in Liverpool? Of course not, you can still have an outside view of something.
All correct.
You can still see stuff happening via media or first hand experience when going on holidays. I don't have to be living in the US to see that some US officers are breaking the law or discriminating against race. I don't need to have been there at the time of an incident to see that there was an incident when there's video footage of an incident. There's documented evidence of that stuff for me to see. Just like everyone else in this thread that isn't from the US, I can have a viewpoint of the US. In fact people all around the globe has an opinion about the US.
All worthless, unless discussed within the framework of experience and correlation.

And like I wrote earlier, that type of discussion would bankrupt your position.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 30, 2020, 12:50:44 PM
Lol... Just because I don't live in america doesn't mean I've never been to america or seen anything to do with american law enforcement. This a really strange opinion for you to have, given that it would mean you can't have an opinion on literally anything unless it's something related directly to yourself.
I didn't write you couldn't have an opinion.

I wrote your opinion is worth no consideration by others unless presented within a framework.
Just the other day you used LiverpoolFC as an example for how English people and the English police force act. I guess that point of yours is void? Since you don't live in the UK and aren't a footballer or a UK police officer or football hooligan in Liverpool? Of course not, you can still have an outside view of something.
All correct.
You can still see stuff happening via media or first hand experience when going on holidays. I don't have to be living in the US to see that some US officers are breaking the law or discriminating against race. I don't need to have been there at the time of an incident to see that there was an incident when there's video footage of an incident. There's documented evidence of that stuff for me to see. Just like everyone else in this thread that isn't from the US, I can have a viewpoint of the US. In fact people all around the globe has an opinion about the US.
All worthless, unless discussed within the framework of experience and correlation.

And like I wrote earlier, that type of discussion would bankrupt your position.
Yea sorry this isn't how it works. You don't know what experiences I've had, you've no idea what I've learned through life. not being in the US doesn't "bankrupt" my position. Which btw, is that most officers are sound and only a few bad apples that get a lot of media coverage ruin it for the rest. but IMO Those bad apples shouldn't have made it to their position. So I guess I'd question the education system of the US and the training that police officers receive. when I've seen evidence of those bad apples existing, my point still stands I believe. I don't have an extreme position which I get the feeling you think I do. I just think potential officers should go through more of a trial and better training. I think anyone showing red flags of having a massive ego shouldn't be an officer. I think any officer shown to be abusing their position or breaking the law themselves should be stripped of their position.

Not everyone is cut out to be a law enforcement officer, I know I wouldn't be, so I have nothing against people that do that stuff for a living but I can visibly see some of them aren't capable and shouldn't be an officer. There are cultural differences that make the US and UK police really quite different for sure, but that doesn't mean I don't have any insight into the US police force, especially since the US is under a microscope most of the time.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on June 30, 2020, 02:35:40 PM
Lol... Just because I don't live in america doesn't mean I've never been to america or seen anything to do with american law enforcement. This a really strange opinion for you to have, given that it would mean you can't have an opinion on literally anything unless it's something related directly to yourself.
I didn't write you couldn't have an opinion.

I wrote your opinion is worth no consideration by others unless presented within a framework.
Just the other day you used LiverpoolFC as an example for how English people and the English police force act. I guess that point of yours is void? Since you don't live in the UK and aren't a footballer or a UK police officer or football hooligan in Liverpool? Of course not, you can still have an outside view of something.
All correct.
You can still see stuff happening via media or first hand experience when going on holidays. I don't have to be living in the US to see that some US officers are breaking the law or discriminating against race. I don't need to have been there at the time of an incident to see that there was an incident when there's video footage of an incident. There's documented evidence of that stuff for me to see. Just like everyone else in this thread that isn't from the US, I can have a viewpoint of the US. In fact people all around the globe has an opinion about the US.
All worthless, unless discussed within the framework of experience and correlation.

And like I wrote earlier, that type of discussion would bankrupt your position.
Yea sorry this isn't how it works.
That is exactly how it works.
You don't know what experiences I've had, you've no idea what I've learned through life. not being in the US doesn't "bankrupt" my position.
You are correct.

I do not know your experience.

I didn't write what you have stated I wrote.

It is not the idea of you having never been or even being in the US which bankrupts your position.

It is your lack of framework provided for interpretation of whatever experience you have had, applied to the subject matter at hand, which bankrupts your position.

That, and of course which you so clearly demonstrate here, a decided lack of understanding.
Which btw, is that most officers are sound and only a few bad apples that get a lot of media coverage ruin it for the rest.
There is some semblance of a framework offered here, but it certainly isn't your entire position.

And I agree with what you wrote, except it doesn't ruin it for the rest.

Too broad a brush.

The people chosen for the police come from society, just like every other occupation.

As far as the rest of it, discipline has and is being taken.

You act like it hasn't.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 30, 2020, 07:47:45 PM
Lol... Just because I don't live in america doesn't mean I've never been to america or seen anything to do with american law enforcement. This a really strange opinion for you to have, given that it would mean you can't have an opinion on literally anything unless it's something related directly to yourself.
I didn't write you couldn't have an opinion.

I wrote your opinion is worth no consideration by others unless presented within a framework.
Just the other day you used LiverpoolFC as an example for how English people and the English police force act. I guess that point of yours is void? Since you don't live in the UK and aren't a footballer or a UK police officer or football hooligan in Liverpool? Of course not, you can still have an outside view of something.
All correct.
You can still see stuff happening via media or first hand experience when going on holidays. I don't have to be living in the US to see that some US officers are breaking the law or discriminating against race. I don't need to have been there at the time of an incident to see that there was an incident when there's video footage of an incident. There's documented evidence of that stuff for me to see. Just like everyone else in this thread that isn't from the US, I can have a viewpoint of the US. In fact people all around the globe has an opinion about the US.
All worthless, unless discussed within the framework of experience and correlation.

And like I wrote earlier, that type of discussion would bankrupt your position.
Yea sorry this isn't how it works.
That is exactly how it works.
You don't know what experiences I've had, you've no idea what I've learned through life. not being in the US doesn't "bankrupt" my position.
You are correct.

I do not know your experience.

I didn't write what you have stated I wrote.

It is not the idea of you having never been or even having been to the US which bankrupts your position.

It is your lack of framework provided for interpretation of whatever experience you have had. applied to the subject matter at hand, which bankrupts your position.

That, and of course which you so clearly demonstrate here, a decided lack of understanding.
Which btw, is that most officers are sound and only a few bad apples that get a lot of media coverage ruin it for the rest.
There is some semblance of a framework offered here, but it certainly isn't your entire position.

And I agree with what you wrote, except it doesn't ruin it for the rest.

Too broad a brush.

The people chosen for the police come from society, just like every other occupation.

As far as the rest of it, discipline has and is being taken.

You act like it hasn't.
Ok well I'll remember this the next time you chime in to a topic about rockets with your absolute lack of experience in rocket science or engineering. Worthless indeed.

Yes what I wrote is a broad description. I guess you can round it down to the fact that there are any bad apples at all should not be possible. Police enforcing the law should be lawful. Some aren't and that is not acceptable. Some get found out and disciplined sure, but

A) Why were they able to become an officer in the first place and
B) What about all the ones that haven't been found out yet?

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect every officer to have gone through law school and be the perfect specimen of human, no one is perfect, but you can find footage of some absolute moronic police officers and that shouldn't be possible. You don't need to have experienced it for yourself to see that. How can someone uphold the law while not being lawful? Why were they given such a position? How were they able to keep that position for years? How can I expect the police to protect and serve citizens if there's potentially morons with big egos in the force? These are questions I think desperately need to be answered and corrected in future. It should be progress at least ie; something needs to change.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on July 03, 2020, 06:57:41 AM
black man was arrested for dancing in the street... Wut. Why would it escalate to that point? Police are supposed to be trained to deescalate. I understand they have to investigate when someone calls them but... Cops arrive, ask the guy if everything is all good, guy says year just doing my morning routine. Cops at that point should have just stopped bothering him but instead went into restraining him, which is ridiculous. And having to have neighbours come out and vouch for you to the police is also ridiculous because he was doing nothing wrong... It's a completely bizarre exchange between the police and the guy.
 
https://youtu.be/ugaGlOc87TU
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 03, 2020, 12:18:13 PM
If you have no experience with the American police or forms of injustice then you really have no worthwhile insight in the topic at all. Neither does Tumeni.

I refer you back to my OP, and to the catalogue of instances of American police brutality toward the citizens who were A - peacefully protesting, and B - are the citizens who the police are supposed to serve, a catalogue which was compiled by an American Civil Defence Attorney. 

Does not matter whether I not I or others have any of the experience you cite, I defer to his experience, and his judgement on whether or not what he posted would stand up in court. He wouldn't post them without considering them valid.

In the space of one month, this catalogue accumulated over 700 instances of police brutality.

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1278930262169137152


In other news;

A National Park Services ranger summarily executed an unarmed man for speeding.  Magically, portions of the ranger's bodycam footage disappeared.  You also see him handcuff a dead body

https://t.co/CO99Wnu7RI?amp=1
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 06, 2020, 12:45:40 PM
Ok well I'll remember this the next time you chime in to a topic about rockets with your absolute lack of experience in rocket science or engineering. Worthless indeed.
Science is science.

Don't need experience to quote facts.
Yes what I wrote is a broad description. I guess you can round it down to the fact that there are any bad apples at all should not be possible. Police enforcing the law should be lawful. Some aren't and that is not acceptable. Some get found out and disciplined sure, but

A) Why were they able to become an officer in the first place and
B) What about all the ones that haven't been found out yet?
Policing is a human function filled by imperfect humans.

Your solution is, I suppose, take a freaking guess at just WHO might be the next bad guy in uniform and shoot him (something you are here whining about, claiming that the US police are doing).

Just totally hilarious!
Don't get me wrong, I don't expect every officer to have gone through law school and be the perfect specimen of human, no one is perfect, but you can find footage of some absolute moronic police officers and that shouldn't be possible. You don't need to have experienced it for yourself to see that. How can someone uphold the law while not being lawful? Why were they given such a position? How were they able to keep that position for years? How can I expect the police to protect and serve citizens if there's potentially morons with big egos in the force? These are questions I think desperately need to be answered and corrected in future. It should be progress at least ie; something needs to change.
Yeah, you want it both ways and that demonstrates you're bankrupt in this position, much worse than I previously thought.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 06, 2020, 02:13:46 PM
black man was arrested for dancing in the street... Wut. Why would it escalate to that point? Police are supposed to be trained to deescalate. I understand they have to investigate when someone calls them but... Cops arrive, ask the guy if everything is all good, guy says year just doing my morning routine. Cops at that point should have just stopped bothering him but instead went into restraining him, which is ridiculous. And having to have neighbours come out and vouch for you to the police is also ridiculous because he was doing nothing wrong... It's a completely bizarre exchange between the police and the guy.
 
https://youtu.be/ugaGlOc87TU

This is absurd. Props to the dancing guy - I wouldn't have been able to keep my cool as well as he did in that situation. I would be looking to sue the police department if they did that to me. On top of humiliating the guy, they had audacity to give him a resting arrest ticket. Couldn't get him on anything else because he wasn't doing ANYTHING wrong, but because the man tried to preserve a little dignity he was guilty of resisting arrest. Surprising he didn't get shot when he reached for his car keys.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 06, 2020, 02:29:18 PM
black man was arrested for dancing in the street... Wut. Why would it escalate to that point? Police are supposed to be trained to deescalate. I understand they have to investigate when someone calls them but... Cops arrive, ask the guy if everything is all good, guy says year just doing my morning routine. Cops at that point should have just stopped bothering him but instead went into restraining him, which is ridiculous. And having to have neighbours come out and vouch for you to the police is also ridiculous because he was doing nothing wrong... It's a completely bizarre exchange between the police and the guy.
 
https://youtu.be/ugaGlOc87TU
See, you don't even understand the principles of lawful detention for the purposes of investigation and lawful arrest.

Just terrible.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 06, 2020, 02:51:38 PM
black man was arrested for dancing in the street... Wut. Why would it escalate to that point? Police are supposed to be trained to deescalate. I understand they have to investigate when someone calls them but... Cops arrive, ask the guy if everything is all good, guy says year just doing my morning routine. Cops at that point should have just stopped bothering him but instead went into restraining him, which is ridiculous. And having to have neighbours come out and vouch for you to the police is also ridiculous because he was doing nothing wrong... It's a completely bizarre exchange between the police and the guy.
 
https://youtu.be/ugaGlOc87TU
See, you don't even understand the principles of lawful detention for the purposes of investigation and lawful arrest.

Just terrible.

Being questioned by police and detained by police are two different things. It went from questioning to detaining in a split second for virtually no reason.

It seems like the only course of action the man could have taken was to apologize to the officers for dancing in the street and say he was going to go home. This however would have been to accept that you do not have the freedom to dance in the street - which we do. In a residential area, it is perfectly legal to dance or do many many many other things on the street - none of which warranty a call to the police, or to be forcefully arrested and placed into a squad car.

This wasn't just a case of police "doing their jobs". They put their hands on him, when there was no sign of danger, no sign of threat. And the man didn't even try to resist by any means other than words.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 06, 2020, 03:05:19 PM
Being questioned by police and detained by police are two different things. It went from questioning to detaining in a split second for virtually no reason.
LOL!!!

First, you are not required to answer any questions offered by anyone, even the police.

If the police are conducting an investigation, they can lawfully detain you in order to question you in concert with the investigation.

Prior to that questioning, you MAKE them arrest you and then you should receive what is called the Miranda Warning:

"You have the right to REMAIN silent. If you GIVE UP the right to remain silent, anything you say CAN AND WILL be held against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford...etc."
It seems like the only course of action the man could have taken was to apologize to the officers for dancing in the street and say he was going to go home. This however would have been to accept that you do not have the freedom to dance in the street - which we do. In a residential area, it is perfectly legal to dance or do many many many other things on the street - none of which warranty a call to the police, or to be forcefully arrested and placed into a squad car.
The police are called to a scene, having received a report.

They are required to report to that scene.

I know you want a world where the police just ignore all that, but that really isn't how it works.

You have an idea of what does and what doesn't warrant police investigation and/or intervention and I'm sure you realize others have their views about it also.
This wasn't just a case of police "doing their jobs". They put their hands on him, when there was no sign of danger, no sign of threat. And the man didn't even try to resist by any means other than words.
The police can put their hands on you or anyone else.

So can I or anyone else.

There are consequences to that action.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 06, 2020, 03:27:02 PM
It seems like the only course of action the man could have taken was to apologize to the officers for dancing in the street and say he was going to go home. This however would have been to accept that you do not have the freedom to dance in the street - which we do. In a residential area, it is perfectly legal to dance or do many many many other things on the street - none of which warranty a call to the police, or to be forcefully arrested and placed into a squad car.
The police are called to a scene, having received a report.

They are required to report to that scene.

I know you want a world where the police just ignore all that, but that really isn't how it works.

You have an idea of what does and what doesn't warrant police investigation and/or intervention and I'm sure you realize others have their views about it also.

Yes, they are required to report to the scene. They are not required to detain you.

This wasn't just a case of police "doing their jobs". They put their hands on him, when there was no sign of danger, no sign of threat. And the man didn't even try to resist by any means other than words.
The police can put their hands on you or anyone else.

So can I or anyone else.

There are consequences to that action.

Let's not get distracted by pedantry.

Police are not just allowed to touch someone, and you are not just allowed to touch someone.

Police officers must have a reason to arrest you before they touch you in any way. Any other reason to touch someone can be considered harassment. This man displayed no aggression when they grabbed his hands. Any normal person would feel violated at that point.

If you touch someone, you are more likely to be charged with harassment because you do not get the same benefit of doubt that police officers are awarded.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 06, 2020, 03:37:08 PM
It seems like the only course of action the man could have taken was to apologize to the officers for dancing in the street and say he was going to go home. This however would have been to accept that you do not have the freedom to dance in the street - which we do. In a residential area, it is perfectly legal to dance or do many many many other things on the street - none of which warranty a call to the police, or to be forcefully arrested and placed into a squad car.
The police are called to a scene, having received a report.

They are required to report to that scene.

I know you want a world where the police just ignore all that, but that really isn't how it works.

You have an idea of what does and what doesn't warrant police investigation and/or intervention and I'm sure you realize others have their views about it also.

Yes, they are required to report to the scene. They are not required to detain you.
They are if they believe there is something to detain you for.

And that is their call.

Not yours.
This wasn't just a case of police "doing their jobs". They put their hands on him, when there was no sign of danger, no sign of threat. And the man didn't even try to resist by any means other than words.
The police can put their hands on you or anyone else.

So can I or anyone else.

There are consequences to that action.

Let's not get distracted by pedantry.
Funny, I am not the one getting distracted by pedantry, you are.

I am stating facts, you are not.
Police are not just allowed to touch someone, and you are not just allowed to touch someone.
Good thing I never wrote this.

What is bad, however, is your ability to interpret simple English and relatively straightforward language.
Police officers must have a reason to arrest you before they touch you in any way.
Horse hockey.
 
Any other reason to touch someone can be considered harassment. This man displayed no aggression when they grabbed his hands. Any normal person would feel violated at that point.
Any normal person wouldn't be dancing in the street.
If you touch someone, you are more likely to be charged with harassment because you do not get the same benefit of doubt that police officers are awarded.
It is good you can post a likelihood.

Now if we can just proceed to reality.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 06, 2020, 03:51:46 PM
Don't need experience to quote facts.

Don't need experience of US policing to quote videos which show them brutalising the citizens they are supposed to protect and serve.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 06, 2020, 04:00:02 PM
It seems like the only course of action the man could have taken was to apologize to the officers for dancing in the street and say he was going to go home. This however would have been to accept that you do not have the freedom to dance in the street - which we do. In a residential area, it is perfectly legal to dance or do many many many other things on the street - none of which warranty a call to the police, or to be forcefully arrested and placed into a squad car.
The police are called to a scene, having received a report.

They are required to report to that scene.

I know you want a world where the police just ignore all that, but that really isn't how it works.

You have an idea of what does and what doesn't warrant police investigation and/or intervention and I'm sure you realize others have their views about it also.

Yes, they are required to report to the scene. They are not required to detain you.
They are if they believe there is something to detain you for.

And that is their call.

Not yours.


Right, and this is exactly why it is being called into question. Did the police officers make the right decision? Was there any 'real' reason to detain him? What if he were white?

The fact that you ignore these questions might explain why you see things in binary.

This wasn't just a case of police "doing their jobs". They put their hands on him, when there was no sign of danger, no sign of threat. And the man didn't even try to resist by any means other than words.
The police can put their hands on you or anyone else.

So can I or anyone else.

There are consequences to that action.

Let's not get distracted by pedantry.
Funny, I am not the one getting distracted by pedantry, you are.

I am stating facts, you are not.

Your pedantic facts are deliberately misleading and taking away from the point I was making. And you even acknowledge this when you state the next post of

Quote
Good thing I never wrote this.

What was the point in stating a fact that has literally nothing to do with the argument? Glad you are able to touch someone.... your hands work, good job. Now let's get back to the point.

Police are not just allowed to touch someone, and you are not just allowed to touch someone.
What is bad, however, is your ability to interpret simple English and relatively straightforward language.

You seem to have the inability to interpret simple logic, so there's that.

Police officers must have a reason to arrest you before they touch you in any way.
Horse hockey.
 
Any other reason to touch someone can be considered harassment. This man displayed no aggression when they grabbed his hands. Any normal person would feel violated at that point.
Any normal person wouldn't be dancing in the street.

Really? That sounds like a pretty rigid view on life - I feel sorry for you.

If you touch someone, you are more likely to be charged with harassment because you do not get the same benefit of doubt that police officers are awarded.
It is good you can post a likelihood.

Now if we can just proceed to reality.

I cringe at the thought of what you consider reality.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 06, 2020, 04:06:58 PM
Don't need experience to quote facts.

Don't need experience of US policing to quote videos which show them brutalising the citizens they are supposed to protect and serve.
Yeah, it happens.

Yeah, I will still take these instances, knowing that justice will ultimately be served in the long run for all concerned.

One thing clearly demonstrated by this thread is that you would have no clue about policing anywhere, let alone the US.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 06, 2020, 04:11:39 PM
It seems like the only course of action the man could have taken was to apologize to the officers for dancing in the street and say he was going to go home. This however would have been to accept that you do not have the freedom to dance in the street - which we do. In a residential area, it is perfectly legal to dance or do many many many other things on the street - none of which warranty a call to the police, or to be forcefully arrested and placed into a squad car.
The police are called to a scene, having received a report.

They are required to report to that scene.

I know you want a world where the police just ignore all that, but that really isn't how it works.

You have an idea of what does and what doesn't warrant police investigation and/or intervention and I'm sure you realize others have their views about it also.

Yes, they are required to report to the scene. They are not required to detain you.
They are if they believe there is something to detain you for.

And that is their call.

Not yours.


Right, and this is exactly why it is being called into question. Did the police officers make the right decision? Was there any 'real' reason to detain him? What if he were white?
They did make the right decision until someone in authority says otherwise.
The fact that you ignore these questions might explain why you see things in binary.
Nice try.
This wasn't just a case of police "doing their jobs". They put their hands on him, when there was no sign of danger, no sign of threat. And the man didn't even try to resist by any means other than words.
The police can put their hands on you or anyone else.

So can I or anyone else.

There are consequences to that action.

Let's not get distracted by pedantry.
Funny, I am not the one getting distracted by pedantry, you are.

I am stating facts, you are not.

Your pedantic facts are deliberately misleading and taking away from the point I was making. And you even acknowledge this when you state the next post of

Quote
Good thing I never wrote this.

What was the point in stating a fact that has literally nothing to do with the argument? Glad you are able to touch someone.... your hands work, good job. Now let's get back to the point.
If you had a point, it would be there.

I demolished it, using simple language, which you, naturally do not like because your supposed point relies on fluff and Ala Kazaam for effect.
Police are not just allowed to touch someone, and you are not just allowed to touch someone.
What is bad, however, is your ability to interpret simple English and relatively straightforward language.

You seem to have the inability to interpret simple logic, so there's that.
Logic requires reality.

Absent in your interpretation.
Police officers must have a reason to arrest you before they touch you in any way.
Horse hockey.
 
Any other reason to touch someone can be considered harassment. This man displayed no aggression when they grabbed his hands. Any normal person would feel violated at that point.
Any normal person wouldn't be dancing in the street.

Really? That sounds like a pretty rigid view on life - I feel sorry for you.
LOL!
If you touch someone, you are more likely to be charged with harassment because you do not get the same benefit of doubt that police officers are awarded.
It is good you can post a likelihood.

Now if we can just proceed to reality.

I cringe at the thought of what you consider reality.
Yeah.

No doubt.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 06, 2020, 04:16:36 PM
Don't need experience to quote facts.

Don't need experience of US policing to quote videos which show them brutalising the citizens they are supposed to protect and serve.
Yeah, it happens.

Yeah, I will still take these instances, knowing that justice will ultimately be served in the long run for all concerned.

One thing clearly demonstrated by this thread is that you would have no clue about policing anywhere, let alone the US.

One thing clearly demonstrated by this thread is that your reality exists in-so-far-as your nose goes.

You really should stop posting.... on the other hand, the entertainment level is clearly up because of you - good job.... I guess?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 06, 2020, 04:19:59 PM
One thing clearly demonstrated by this thread is that you would have no clue about policing anywhere, let alone the US.

Even if you're right about this, so what?

 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 06, 2020, 04:21:18 PM
Even if you're right about this, so what?
Well, it would be a good idea to figure out how it works before declaring it to not be working. Your strategy of just rapid-firing criticisms and hoping that some of them won't be completely ludicrous is not a persuasive one.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 06, 2020, 04:34:52 PM
...and after umpteen pages, I refer you back to Tom's assertion, similar to yours and TL's, which he made at Reply #6, and to my response to his at #8.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 07, 2020, 10:16:17 AM
Don't need experience to quote facts.

Don't need experience of US policing to quote videos which show them brutalising the citizens they are supposed to protect and serve.
Yeah, it happens.

Yeah, I will still take these instances, knowing that justice will ultimately be served in the long run for all concerned.

One thing clearly demonstrated by this thread is that you would have no clue about policing anywhere, let alone the US.

One thing clearly demonstrated by this thread is that your reality exists in-so-far-as your nose goes.

You really should stop posting.... on the other hand, the entertainment level is clearly up because of you - good job.... I guess?
People generally tend to find the posting of facts and science to be informative and entertaining.

Here is another series of facts.

In areas like Chicago, Seattle, New York, and DC, where the protests and calls for defunding the police are loudest, they are experiencing the largest rates of gun violence and murders, predominately committed by otherwise peaceful black citizens upon other peaceful black citizens.

Not surprisingly, these areas also have the most strict gun control laws in the country.

I am happy to be able to provide these facts on the forum, in order to fill the void as it were.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 07, 2020, 04:17:34 PM
In areas like Chicago, Seattle, New York, and DC, where the protests and calls for defunding the police are loudest, they are experiencing the largest rates of gun violence and murders, predominately committed by otherwise peaceful black citizens upon other peaceful black citizens.

Since no defunding has taken place, does that not suggest to you that overfunded police forces aren't actually successful?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 07, 2020, 05:09:01 PM
Don't need experience to quote facts.

Don't need experience of US policing to quote videos which show them brutalising the citizens they are supposed to protect and serve.
Yeah, it happens.

Yeah, I will still take these instances, knowing that justice will ultimately be served in the long run for all concerned.

One thing clearly demonstrated by this thread is that you would have no clue about policing anywhere, let alone the US.

One thing clearly demonstrated by this thread is that your reality exists in-so-far-as your nose goes.

You really should stop posting.... on the other hand, the entertainment level is clearly up because of you - good job.... I guess?
People generally tend to find the posting of facts and science to be informative and entertaining.
That's true, you should try it sometime.


Here is another series of facts.

In areas like Chicago, Seattle, New York, and DC, where the protests and calls for defunding the police are loudest, they are experiencing the largest rates of gun violence and murders, predominately committed by otherwise peaceful black citizens upon other peaceful black citizens.

Not surprisingly, these areas also have the most strict gun control laws in the country.

I am happy to be able to provide these facts on the forum, in order to fill the void as it were.

Again, supposed "facts" that you do not back up with any supporting evidence. And you say I'm blowing, what was it you said, "fluff and ala kazaam"?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 07, 2020, 07:16:50 PM
Don't need experience to quote facts.

Don't need experience of US policing to quote videos which show them brutalising the citizens they are supposed to protect and serve.
Yeah, it happens.

Yeah, I will still take these instances, knowing that justice will ultimately be served in the long run for all concerned.

One thing clearly demonstrated by this thread is that you would have no clue about policing anywhere, let alone the US.

One thing clearly demonstrated by this thread is that your reality exists in-so-far-as your nose goes.

You really should stop posting.... on the other hand, the entertainment level is clearly up because of you - good job.... I guess?
People generally tend to find the posting of facts and science to be informative and entertaining.
That's true, you should try it sometime.
On a steady and consistent basis, intending to continue as long as I have the strength.

Here is another series of facts.

In areas like Chicago, Seattle, New York, and DC, where the protests and calls for defunding the police are loudest, they are experiencing the largest rates of gun violence and murders, predominately committed by otherwise peaceful black citizens upon other peaceful black citizens.

Not surprisingly, these areas also have the most strict gun control laws in the country.

I am happy to be able to provide these facts on the forum, in order to fill the void as it were.

Again, supposed "facts" that you do not back up with any supporting evidence. And you say I'm blowing, what was it you said, "fluff and ala kazaam"?
Yep.

Try the internet. It is wonderful.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 08, 2020, 02:22:18 AM
Again, supposed "facts" that you do not back up with any supporting evidence. And you say I'm blowing, what was it you said, "fluff and ala kazaam"?
Yep.

Try the internet. It is wonderful.

You have attempted to discredit any and all references that have been provided to you from the grand interwebs, and yet here you are, pronouncing with such confidence, "Check my facts with the internet." ... surely you won't find any fluff and ala-kazaam there now will you....
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 08, 2020, 09:02:31 AM
...and after umpteen pages, I refer you back to Tom's assertion, similar to yours and TL's, which he made at Reply #6, and to my response to his at #8.
You can "refer" me to anything you want. It doesn't particularly change the fact that you're just airing your cluelessness here. Especially when the response you "referred" me to is just you repeatedly expressing your outrage.

Outrage is not a substitute for a counter-argument. You are welcome to be angry with those who point out your lack of understanding, but your anger does not affect the merit of your position (or at least does not affect it positively).

So: if you show yourself to be clueless, it will probably be pointed out. If you ask why being clueless is significant, it will probably be explained to you. If your only response to that is "OHMIGOSH SHAAAAAME ON YOU", then you might as well not say anything.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 08, 2020, 10:15:42 AM
Again, supposed "facts" that you do not back up with any supporting evidence. And you say I'm blowing, what was it you said, "fluff and ala kazaam"?
Yep.

Try the internet. It is wonderful.

You have attempted to discredit any and all references that have been provided to you from the grand interwebs, and yet here you are, pronouncing with such confidence, "Check my facts with the internet." ... surely you won't find any fluff and ala-kazaam there now will you....
What I have written is facts.

Throughout this thread.

There is no fluff or ala kazaam when it comes to black people being murdered in the street in the very areas where the protests crying out for DEFUND THE POLICE are loudest.

A black person has more to fear from another black person than he does from a police officer.

Throughout history, all people have had more to fear from terrorists and criminal thugs than from any police force.

Sorry you cannot deal with these facts.

I hope you can someday learn to do so, before it is too late.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 08, 2020, 10:23:59 AM
There is no fluff or ala kazaam when it comes black people being murdered in the street in the very areas where the protests crying out for DEFUND THE POLICE are loudest.

They've not been defunded yet.

So the adequately or over-funded police are ineffective in stopping crime? Why bother with them, then?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 08, 2020, 10:29:36 AM
There is no fluff or ala kazaam when it comes black people being murdered in the street in the very areas where the protests crying out for DEFUND THE POLICE are loudest.

They've not been defunded yet.

So the adequately or over-funded police are ineffective in stopping crime? Why bother with them, then?
They haven't been defunded?

What about New York?

If you go bandying about a 1 billion USD cut from the police and expect to receive any assistance from the police, then you have another thing coming.

Crime prevention is more to do with consistent presence and as I stated in my first post in this thread, there does need to be a move toward more walking beats and less armored vehicle patrolling in areas where it would be most beneficial.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 08, 2020, 10:55:01 AM
They haven't been defunded?  What about New York? 

What about them? Has the NYPD had monies taken away from it since the protests began?

LA's Mayor is proposing that over half the city budget for next year goes on the police. At the expense of Fire, Library, Parks and Rec, and a host of others, who get the scraps from the table...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 08, 2020, 10:56:39 AM
They haven't been defunded?  What about New York? 

What about them? Has the NYPD had monies taken away from it since the protests began?
Yes.
LA's Mayor is proposing that over half the city budget for next year goes on the police. At the expense of Fire, Library, Parks and Rec, and a host of others, who get the scraps from the table...
Yeah, right.

https://abc7.com/defund-the-police-lapd-los-angeles-mayor-eric-garcetti/6289037/

Just terrible.

Crime prevention is more to do with consistent presence and as I stated in my first post in this thread, there does need to be a move toward more walking beats and less armored vehicle patrolling in areas where it would be most beneficial.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on July 09, 2020, 05:05:45 PM
Quote
Any normal person wouldn't be dancing in the street.
Well first off this is obviously not true since the guy the police detained was seemingly normal when the police approached him and most of his neighbours seemed to think it was his normal routine. But lets brush aside that you think being abnormal is somehow suspicious for a moment.

Why would you detain someone for dancing? Why is it ok to dance for exercise in a gym or at home but not outside in public? What about street parties where people are dancing? Why were the police, who are trained to deescalate, escalate the situation to the point of detaining someone for dancing? They arrived on the scene, could see the guy was clearly in workout clothing, his neighbours even came out to say it's all cool and it's normal and they know him, he's not doing any harm but they carried on? Totallackey, if you were an officer in that situation how would it go down? Would you overreact to someone dancing? Because it seems since you're defending their actions that you too would have acted the same way. If so, why would you take offense or feel threatened, or why would you think dancing is going to be cause for harm or lead to any crime? Or would you act on impulse at your hurt feelings that the guy is just different to you and there's nothing you could do about it?

You would not be fun at parties. Imagine trying to defend the police officers pinning people down for dancing... At this point you have to be trolling yet again.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 09, 2020, 10:23:46 PM
Quote
Any normal person wouldn't be dancing in the street.
Well first off this is obviously not true since the guy the police detained was seemingly normal when the police approached him and most of his neighbours seemed to think it was his normal routine.
It isn't normal to dance in the street.
 
But let's brush aside you think being abnormal is somehow suspicious for a moment.
Witnessing abnormality raises many thoughts and feelings, including suspicion.

That's a statement of fact.
Why would you detain someone for dancing?
To find out what is going on.
Why is it ok to dance for exercise in a gym or at home but not outside in public?
Who said it wasn't okay?
What about street parties where people are dancing?
LOL!
Why were the police, who are trained to deescalate, escalate the situation to the point of detaining someone for dancing? They arrived on the scene, could see the guy was clearly in workout clothing, his neighbours even came out to say it's all cool and it's normal and they know him, he's not doing any harm but they carried on?
To find out what was going on.
Totallackey, if you were an officer in that situation how would it go down? Would you overreact to someone dancing?
Police are allowed to investigate and respond to calls.
Because it seems since you're defending their actions that you too would have acted the same way. If so, why would you take offense or feel threatened, or why would you think dancing is going to be cause for harm or lead to any crime? Or would you act on impulse at your hurt feelings that the guy is just different to you and there's nothing you could do about it?

You would not be fun at parties. Imagine trying to defend the police officers pinning people down for dancing... At this point you have to be trolling yet again.
Happy to get your shots in I see.

Have a great day!
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 10, 2020, 01:21:30 AM
Dancing is not really indicative of criminality unless we have time warped back to Cromwell’s England. “To find out what was going on” is a fucking terrible rationale for escalating a stop to violence. Horrible take.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 10, 2020, 01:56:41 AM
Why would you detain someone for dancing?
To find out what is going on.

This is appalling.

Let's set aside, for a moment, that fact that you think dancing in the street is in some way abnormal, and focus on the fact that you would detain someone for the simple pleasure of "finding out what's going on".

That is not only 'un-american', that is a violation of civil rights. Also have a look at the 4th amendment - refresh yourself of your own civil liberties, it might be good for you.

The police must have probable cause to detain someone for any reason. Dancing in the street is not probable cause of anything.

Here's an i.e. -

How often does it happen that a case has to be legally dismissed because evidence was obtained unlawfully? I don't know the answer to this, but I'll guarantee it's happened more than once.

If someone's rights are violated while obtaining evidence of a crime, if they are detained unlawfully for instance, the judge may very well throw out the evidence.


Now, let's address the issue of you thinking dancing in the street is abnormal. So abnormal, that you would violate someone's civil liberties to "find out what is going on". What gives? Were you made fun of as a child for dancing around in the street? Is there some trauma that you have experienced related to dancing? I only ask because it is quite possible that it is more abnormal to 'think' there is anything wrong with dancing in the street. Seriously.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: honk on July 10, 2020, 02:52:02 AM
I don't know where all the people here live who are talking about how it's perfectly normal and not at all unusual for people to be dancing in the street. I've never seen that happen outside of a musical. I also question how confidently it's been asserted that it's entirely legal to dance in the streets. Really? The government doesn't have anything to say about people dancing on a public road that's regularly traversed by cars? I doubt there's any statute specifically about dancing, but there's a very strong argument to be made that it could constitute reckless behavior, or cause accidents. Also, the police don't need probable cause to detain someone, just reasonable suspicion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion), and while I personally wouldn't go calling the cops over someone dancing in the street, that's absolutely enough to detain someone for the course of an investigation. To keep boiling it down to "arrested for dancing," as if literally the first thing the police did is snap on the handcuffs, is disingenuous. I can't read the police's minds, and I can't say for a certainty that if this dude had cooperated that everything would have been fine, but as it stands, the video shows someone who has been clearly informed that he's being detained trying to leave, and so he's arrested. The police need to have the power to enforce laws, even laws against minor infractions, or we might as well not have these laws at all.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on July 10, 2020, 10:07:40 AM
I don't know where all the people here live who are talking about how it's perfectly normal and not at all unusual for people to be dancing in the street. I've never seen that happen outside of a musical. I also question how confidently it's been asserted that it's entirely legal to dance in the streets. Really? The government doesn't have anything to say about people dancing on a public road that's regularly traversed by cars? I doubt there's any statute specifically about dancing, but there's a very strong argument to be made that it could constitute reckless behavior, or cause accidents. Also, the police don't need probable cause to detain someone, just reasonable suspicion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion), and while I personally wouldn't go calling the cops over someone dancing in the street, that's absolutely enough to detain someone for the course of an investigation. To keep boiling it down to "arrested for dancing," as if literally the first thing the police did is snap on the handcuffs, is disingenuous. I can't read the police's minds, and I can't say for a certainty that if this dude had cooperated that everything would have been fine, but as it stands, the video shows someone who has been clearly informed that he's being detained trying to leave, and so he's arrested. The police need to have the power to enforce laws, even laws against minor infractions, or we might as well not have these laws at all.
I'd say it's no more dangerous than kids playing in the street which happens on a daily basis, or people going for a jog will sometimes jog on the road in a place where there is not much traffic, which seems to be the case here.

I'm just wondering at what point people realise that "being different" in harmless ways is considered worthy of calling the cops in for an investigation. Had the person been say, a white blond female of the same age dancing in the street do you think the police would have been called? And more so do you think she'd have been pinned to the ground for not taking her non-existent crime seriously? And again, police who are trained to deescalate somehow escalated the situation of a guy dancing to detaining him which is fucking stupid. You show up, see the guy is just excising in unusual ways and some moron overreacted by calling the police, you move on. There was no reason for that situation to get out of hand especially when neighbours were chiming in to say they know him and it's what he does regularly. It's like they had no common sense to go "ah ok sorry we fucked up" at any point. They instead doubled down at every turn.

People are weird. I see weird people doing weird shit in the streets all the time. Kids play in the street, joggers jog in the street... No problem. Middle aged man dancing in the street is not worthy of calling the police let alone how badly that situation was handled by trained officers.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 10, 2020, 10:19:41 AM
Dancing is not really indicative of criminality unless we have time warped back to Cromwell’s England. “To find out what was going on” is a fucking terrible rationale for escalating a stop to violence. Horrible take.
It would be a horrible take if that is what I wrote.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 10, 2020, 10:28:22 AM
Why would you detain someone for dancing?
To find out what is going on.

This is appalling.

Let's set aside, for a moment, that fact that you think dancing in the street is in some way abnormal,
Why should we do that?

It is abnormal to be dancing in the street.

You cannot possibly claim that is a normal activity.
...and focus on the fact that you would detain someone for the simple pleasure of "finding out what's going on".
Police are frequently called to residences and other places to determine exactly that.

"Find out what is going on."

Do you want police to act on a situation without finding out what is going on?
That is not only 'un-american', that is a violation of civil rights. Also have a look at the 4th amendment - refresh yourself of your own civil liberties, it might be good for you.
I know my civil liberties and it is not a violation of my civil rights or liberties to be investigated by police in a situation that I might be involved in.

I am not required to cooperate with said investigation.

Nobody is.
The police must have probable cause to detain someone for any reason. Dancing in the street is not probable cause of anything.
Reasonable suspicion something might be amiss is certainly cause for an investigation and for the rest of the follow up, you can refer above to the rest of my reply.
Here's an i.e. -

How often does it happen that a case has to be legally dismissed because evidence was obtained unlawfully? I don't know the answer to this, but I'll guarantee it's happened more than once.
Relevance?
If someone's rights are violated while obtaining evidence of a crime, if they are detained unlawfully for instance, the judge may very well throw out the evidence.
Relevance?
Now, let's address the issue of you thinking dancing in the street is abnormal. So abnormal, that you would violate someone's civil liberties to "find out what is going on". What gives? Were you made fun of as a child for dancing around in the street? Is there some trauma that you have experienced related to dancing? I only ask because it is quite possible that it is more abnormal to 'think' there is anything wrong with dancing in the street. Seriously.
No, it isn't.

Dancing in the street is not a normal activity performed by anyone and everyone.

The antonym of normal is abnormal.

I am correct.

Period.

End of argument.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 10, 2020, 10:41:45 AM
I don't know where all the people here live who are talking about how it's perfectly normal and not at all unusual for people to be dancing in the street. I've never seen that happen outside of a musical. I also question how confidently it's been asserted that it's entirely legal to dance in the streets. Really? The government doesn't have anything to say about people dancing on a public road that's regularly traversed by cars? I doubt there's any statute specifically about dancing, but there's a very strong argument to be made that it could constitute reckless behavior, or cause accidents. Also, the police don't need probable cause to detain someone, just reasonable suspicion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion), and while I personally wouldn't go calling the cops over someone dancing in the street, that's absolutely enough to detain someone for the course of an investigation. To keep boiling it down to "arrested for dancing," as if literally the first thing the police did is snap on the handcuffs, is disingenuous. I can't read the police's minds, and I can't say for a certainty that if this dude had cooperated that everything would have been fine, but as it stands, the video shows someone who has been clearly informed that he's being detained trying to leave, and so he's arrested. The police need to have the power to enforce laws, even laws against minor infractions, or we might as well not have these laws at all.
I'd say it's no more dangerous than kids playing in the street which happens on a daily basis, or people going for a jog will sometimes jog on the road in a place where there is not much traffic, which seems to be the case here.

I'm just wondering at what point people realise that "being different" in harmless ways is considered worthy of calling the cops in for an investigation. Had the person been say, a white blond female of the same age dancing in the street do you think the police would have been called? And more so do you think she'd have been pinned to the ground for not taking her non-existent crime seriously? And again, police who are trained to deescalate somehow escalated the situation of a guy dancing to detaining him which is fucking stupid. You show up, see the guy is just excising in unusual ways and some moron overreacted by calling the police, you move on. There was no reason for that situation to get out of hand especially when neighbours were chiming in to say they know him and it's what he does regularly. It's like they had no common sense to go "ah ok sorry we fucked up" at any point. They instead doubled down at every turn.

People are weird. I see weird people doing weird shit in the streets all the time. Kids play in the street, joggers jog in the street... No problem. Middle aged man dancing in the street is not worthy of calling the police let alone how badly that situation was handled by trained officers.
Your response to honk is to identify perfectly normal activities as weird and you are here questioning how the police reacted in this situation?

That seems weird.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on July 10, 2020, 12:41:05 PM
That seems weird.
Weird enough to detain me?

Anyway my response wasn't to say normal things aren't normal. I said weird things happen. My response which you seem to be missing the point of is that I bring into question why a weird but harmless and legal activity are cause for phoning the police which ya know, lets assume the person who called the police was actually calling for a legit concern, the police who arrived should have been able to sus out what was going on pretty much in seconds. You seem to be having an equally hard time with this as the police seemed to... You don't detain people for dancing. That's moronic. You also glossed over my question regarding gender/race reversal. Would the situation have been the same if it were a blond white female acting the same way? You don't have to answer here but if your answer is no and you still can't see the problem then you are also the problem.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 10, 2020, 12:52:13 PM
That seems weird.
Weird enough to detain me?
When somebody reports your posts to the police, rather than the moderators, I guess we will be able to answer that question then.
Anyway my response wasn't to say normal things aren't normal. I said weird things happen.
Correct. In fact you wrote: "People are weird. I see weird people doing weird shit in the streets all the time. Kids play in the street, joggers jog in the street...'

I take that as you describing kids playing in the street and joggers jogging in the street (both normal activities) as doing "weird shit."
My response which you seem to be missing the point of is that I bring into question why a weird but harmless and legal activity are cause for phoning the police.
Because it is weird.
which ya know, lets assume the person who called the police was actually calling for a legit concern, the police who arrived should have been able to sus out what was going on pretty much in seconds.
You are perfectly allowed to disagree over what constitutes legitimacy and an adequate amount of time it takes to sort things out. 
You seem to be having an equally hard time with this as the police seemed to... You don't detain people for dancing. That's moronic. You also glossed over my question regarding gender/race reversal. Would the situation have been the same if it were a blond white female acting the same way? You don't have to answer here but if your answer is no and you still can't see the problem then you are also the problem.
I am not the one having a difficult time here.

You think it is moronic for them to do so and I don't.

There is no difficulty ascertaining that.

Why would you feel the need to introduce arbitrary standards of enforcement dependent on circumstances as a counter argument when that is your exact position?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 10, 2020, 02:00:15 PM
Why would you detain someone for dancing?
To find out what is going on.

This is appalling.

Let's set aside, for a moment, that fact that you think dancing in the street is in some way abnormal,
Why should we do that?

It is abnormal to be dancing in the street.

You cannot possibly claim that is a normal activity.


It seems apparent, after reading other's replies, that some people consider it normal activity, and some do not - this is understandable since we live in different parts of the country/world and have grown up with varying cultures.

Where I am from, dancing in the street for fun would be completely normal.

There's also a big difference between dancing in a non-busy residential street in your own neighborhood, and dancing down Broadway in New York City.

...and focus on the fact that you would detain someone for the simple pleasure of "finding out what's going on".
Police are frequently called to residences and other places to determine exactly that.

"Find out what is going on."

Do you want police to act on a situation without finding out what is going on?

OK - I get it, sure if a police officer is called to investigate suspicious activity, the officer must go and that is their job. The problem I have with this is first off, what is considered suspicious activity looks a lot like racial profiling in this case. And this isn't the officers fault initially, and I think more attention should be focused on why someone thought enough to call the police in the first place.

The second problem I have is that the officer escalated the situation far beyond what is reasonable for someone minding their own business in their own neighborhood.

I get emotional over this because I can see myself in this situation. I am someone who would dance in the street - you can say I'm weird for it, but it doesn't give the police any rights to detain me for it - matter of fact, if I was grabbed by officers the way this man was, I'd be just as livid. Only I'd probably be worse because I have 'white privilege' and wouldn't fear for my life.

If I were blocking traffic or putting myself or others in danger, well that's another story altogether, and that isn't the case here.

The police must have probable cause to detain someone for any reason. Dancing in the street is not probable cause of anything.
Reasonable suspicion something might be amiss is certainly cause for an investigation and for the rest of the follow up, you can refer above to the rest of my reply.

I still fail to see what the reasonable suspicion is in this case??? I think this is at the forefront of the problem, with police overstepping their authority and use of "reasonable suspicion".

What did the police officer 'reasonably suspect' the man for? Wasn't it the person calling the police who suspected the man in the first place. Once the police got there, how did they go from "why are you dancing in the street?" to "you are a threat to <something>, and we're going to arrest you."?

Here's an i.e. -

How often does it happen that a case has to be legally dismissed because evidence was obtained unlawfully? I don't know the answer to this, but I'll guarantee it's happened more than once.
Relevance?
If someone's rights are violated while obtaining evidence of a crime, if they are detained unlawfully for instance, the judge may very well throw out the evidence.
Relevance?

OK - so I'm stretching a bit on this, I'll give you that.

Now, let's address the issue of you thinking dancing in the street is abnormal. So abnormal, that you would violate someone's civil liberties to "find out what is going on". What gives? Were you made fun of as a child for dancing around in the street? Is there some trauma that you have experienced related to dancing? I only ask because it is quite possible that it is more abnormal to 'think' there is anything wrong with dancing in the street. Seriously.
No, it isn't.

Dancing in the street is not a normal activity performed by anyone and everyone.

The antonym of normal is abnormal.

I am correct.

Period.

End of argument.

You would be correct that dancing in the street is not normal for EVERYONE, but to say it isn't normal for ANYONE is not reality.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 10, 2020, 02:42:04 PM
Why would you detain someone for dancing?
To find out what is going on.

This is appalling.

Let's set aside, for a moment, that fact that you think dancing in the street is in some way abnormal,
Why should we do that?

It is abnormal to be dancing in the street.

You cannot possibly claim that is a normal activity.


It seems apparent, after reading other's replies, that some people consider it normal activity, and some do not - this is understandable since we live in different parts of the country/world and have grown up with varying cultures.
Opinions do not count as to the requirements of determining normalcy.

Dancing in the street is not normal behavior, anywhere in the world, period...
Where I am from, dancing in the street for fun would be completely normal.
No, it wouldn't.

Because dancing in the street is not a normal activity.

It is an abnormal activity.
There's also a big difference between dancing in a non-busy residential street in your own neighborhood, and dancing down Broadway in New York City.
On a rare occasion or two, I am sure someone or someones have actually literally danced on the paved thoroughfare known as Broadway in New York City.

But that was abnormal also, as it is not a normal occurrence.

Just as dancing in the middle of quiet street in a suburban or rural area is abnormal.
...and focus on the fact that you would detain someone for the simple pleasure of "finding out what's going on".
Police are frequently called to residences and other places to determine exactly that.

"Find out what is going on."

Do you want police to act on a situation without finding out what is going on?

OK - I get it, sure if a police officer is called to investigate suspicious activity, the officer must go and that is their job. The problem I have with this is first off, what is considered suspicious activity looks a lot like racial profiling in this case. And this isn't the officers fault initially, and I think more attention should be focused on why someone thought enough to call the police in the first place.
Okay.
The second problem I have is that the officer escalated the situation far beyond what is reasonable for someone minding their own business in their own neighborhood.
Dancing in the street is not indicative of a person solely looking to mind their own business.
I get emotional over this because I can see myself in this situation. I am someone who would dance in the street - you can say I'm weird for it, but it doesn't give the police any rights to detain me for it - matter of fact, if I was grabbed by officers the way this man was, I'd be just as livid. Only I'd probably be worse because I have 'white privilege' and wouldn't fear for my life.

If I were blocking traffic or putting myself or others in danger, well that's another story altogether, and that isn't the case here.
This might shock you, but I too have danced in the street.

At a block party, where there was a lot of other people dancing in the street.

I got real lucky that night.

They were able to hide the fact that I was doing something abnormal.

Block parties are abnormal.

They do not normally occur.
The police must have probable cause to detain someone for any reason. Dancing in the street is not probable cause of anything.
Reasonable suspicion something might be amiss is certainly cause for an investigation and for the rest of the follow up, you can refer above to the rest of my reply.
I still fail to see what the reasonable suspicion is in this case??? I think this is at the forefront of the problem, with police overstepping their authority and use of "reasonable suspicion".
Reasonable suspicion that something might be amiss is established whenever a request via 911 is made.
What did the police officer 'reasonably suspect' the man for?
I don't know.
Wasn't it the person calling the police who suspected the man in the first place.
Yes.
Once the police got there, how did they go from "why are you dancing in the street?" to "you are a threat to <something>, and we're going to arrest you."?
They didn't.
Now, let's address the issue of you thinking dancing in the street is abnormal. So abnormal, that you would violate someone's civil liberties to "find out what is going on". What gives? Were you made fun of as a child for dancing around in the street? Is there some trauma that you have experienced related to dancing? I only ask because it is quite possible that it is more abnormal to 'think' there is anything wrong with dancing in the street. Seriously.
No, it isn't.

Dancing in the street is not a normal activity performed by anyone and everyone.

The antonym of normal is abnormal.

I am correct.

Period.

End of argument.

You would be correct that dancing in the street is not normal for EVERYONE, but to say it isn't normal for ANYONE is not reality.
Dancing in the street is not normal for anyone.

I am fairly confident I am correct in writing this, but if you can find otherwise, that's cool.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 10, 2020, 03:19:17 PM
Dancing in the street is not normal for anyone.

I am fairly confident I am correct in writing this, but if you can find otherwise, that's cool.

I think this calls to question the definition of "normal".

It seems that your definition of normal is that normal is broadly shared by all, for all, with regards to any and all 'norms'. If so, I would ask you to demonstrate this.

I'm afraid you might be falling victim to ethnocentrism in your claim of normalcy.

What is normal for someone in the USA to do, might not be normal for someone in Asia to do - for instance - and vice versa. Before you go calling me racist again, take the example of chopsticks. It is normal for people to use chopsticks in Asian cultures much more so than it is for someone like myself to use chopsticks when I eat.

Similarly, it is normal for Indian cuisine to use curry. It is not normal for my diet to include curry.

I can give you more examples if it would be helpful.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: junker on July 10, 2020, 03:38:19 PM
This thread is also devolving. Stop with the gigantic quote pyramids and absurd pedantry. Stick to the topic so I don't have to flex my authority like American police do.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 10, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
This thread is also devolving. Stop with the gigantic quote pyramids and absurd pedantry. Stick to the topic so I don't have to flex my authority like American police do.

I disagree. I think the definition, and implications of what is considered "normal" is the heart of this entire discussion.

People who believe the police to be out of control are observing infringements on society based on opinions of normalcy. Someone can be deemed "suspicious" because they have defied social norms. Is this a cause for police action?

"It isn't 'normal' to be dancing in the street, there must be something devious is happening, so I'm calling the police!"

Far to often peoples misguided sense of normalcy steers them in the direction of discrimination and social profiling. On the other hand, things that are "normal" help us to make quick decisions - like whether or not to shoot someone in the back after they steel your taser. The officer was likely reacting on a sense of "this isn't normal", therefore fear kicks in, the situation escalates, and before you know it someone ends up dead.

Perhaps the solution to "out of control police" is to deconstruct the idea of "normal". Allow people to not be so reactive on subconscious ques, and better equipped to see where the real threats are.

Edit:

I agree the quote pyramids are getting out of control.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: junker on July 10, 2020, 04:06:00 PM
I disagree. I think the definition, and implications of what is considered "normal" is the heart of this entire discussion.

The only person you are engaging with isn't going to budge on the topic of normalcy. Maybe if Saddam (honk) wanted to join in you could convince him or have a discussion, but that likely won't happen because Saddam isn't going to reply to 100 posts back and forth about people's opinions of normalcy.

And the discussion doesn't need to relate to "normalcy" at all. Stick to the idea of police escalating things for no reason based on legality. Even if it were literally illegal to "dance in the street" it would be the equivalent of jaywalking. If the cop were a normal human (I have yet to see an overlap in that Venn diagram), he would tell the person to move along or that they cannot do that. If they wanted to be real pricks, issue a citation (assuming it is breaking any law). If it is not breaking any law, then mind your business. If it is not against the law, but is possibly creating a hazard, give a lawful order to move  along based on that risk. Escalate as needed if the person refuses to comply with a lawful order. No one needs to be detained or "investigated" for this shit, and we don't need comparisons to curry as a bad analogy to why this is "normal." It just muddies the discussion and derails the thread.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 10, 2020, 04:09:39 PM
Dancing in the street is not normal for anyone.

I am fairly confident I am correct in writing this, but if you can find otherwise, that's cool.

I think this calls to question the definition of "normal".

It seems that your definition of normal is that normal is broadly shared by all, for all, with regards to any and all 'norms'. If so, I would ask you to demonstrate this.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/normal
I'm afraid you might be falling victim to ethnocentrism in your claim of normalcy.
I am not.
What is normal for someone in the USA to do, might not be normal for someone in Asia to do - for instance - and vice versa. Before you go calling me racist again, take the example of chopsticks. It is normal for people to use chopsticks in Asian cultures much more so than it is for someone like myself to use chopsticks when I eat.
Of course it is normal to use chopsticks in Asia.
Similarly, it is normal for Indian cuisine to use curry. It is not normal for my diet to include curry.

I can give you more examples if it would be helpful.
I do not think that is necessary.

The act of dancing in the street is not normal.

Anywhere.

It is not a normal occurrence anywhere.

Abnormal is not a negative word.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 10, 2020, 04:12:46 PM
I disagree. I think the definition, and implications of what is considered "normal" is the heart of this entire discussion.

The only person you are engaging with isn't going to budge on the topic of normalcy. Maybe if Saddam (honk) wanted to join in you could convince him or have a discussion, but that likely won't happen because Saddam isn't going to reply to 100 posts back and forth about people's opinions of normalcy.

And the discussion doesn't need to relate to "normalcy" at all. Stick to the idea of police escalating things for no reason based on legality. Even if it were literally illegal to "dance in the street" it would be the equivalent of jaywalking. If the cop were a normal human (I have yet to see an overlap in that Venn diagram), he would tell the person to move along or that they cannot do that. If they wanted to be real pricks, issue a citation (assuming it is breaking any law). If it is not breaking any law, then mind your business. If it is not against the law, but is possibly creating a hazard, give a lawful order to move  along based on that risk. Escalate as needed if the person refuses to comply with a lawful order. No one needs to be detained or "investigated" for this shit, and we don't need comparisons to curry as a bad analogy to why this is "normal." It just muddies the discussion and derails the thread.
I totally agree with your statement as to how any police officer should have addressed this situation.

I also agree that any police officer should respond to all calls and find out what the issue and then act on it appropriately.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 11, 2020, 01:02:15 PM
I also agree that any police officer should respond to all calls and find out what the issue and then act on it appropriately.

Firstly, the calls should be getting filtered so that officers are not being sent on spurious calls.

Second, surely one of the core takeaways from the database of recent police brutality is that they are NOT acting appropriately...

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 11, 2020, 03:54:04 PM
I also agree that any police officer should respond to all calls and find out what the issue and then act on it appropriately.

Firstly, the calls should be getting filtered so that officers are not being sent on spurious calls.

I think that idea could be a slippery slope. Who’s going to make that determination and what if they get it wrong?

Police should respond if they are called.

However if someone has made a spurious call, like some we’ve seen in the news lately, there should be strict penalties for it.

Also, I think we are mostly in agreement in this thread that police need to be better trained all around. This requires more funds, and/or redistribution of funds (not defunding) - supporting programs meant for education on different cultures, bias awareness, and deescalation tactics.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 11, 2020, 04:17:38 PM
I also agree that any police officer should respond to all calls and find out what the issue and then act on it appropriately.

Firstly, the calls should be getting filtered so that officers are not being sent on spurious calls.

I think that idea could be a slippery slope. Who’s going to make that determination and what if they get it wrong?

Police should respond if they are called.

However if someone has made a spurious call, like some we’ve seen in the news lately, there should be strict penalties for it.

Also, I think we are mostly in agreement in this thread that police need to be better trained all around. This requires more funds, and/or redistribution of funds (not defunding) - supporting programs meant for education on different cultures, bias awareness, and deescalation tactics.

If the report is that someone is dancing in the street, you don't need to send armed officers, you need to send someone who has training in mental health and conflict deescalation.  You can always have armed officers on standby as well in case the situation is more dangerous than it seems.  You not need to send armed officers in to every situation.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2020, 05:46:15 PM
A world without police looks like "a suburb" according to liberal dem leadership.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APBBksMgOtI&feature=emb_title
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 14, 2020, 08:11:01 PM
A world without police looks like "a suburb" according to liberal dem leadership.

Why is he "imagining" this?

Defunding the police is not the same as total removal of police. Defunding means reallocating budgets so that (for instance) the police spend what they do get on things which work for the community, as opposed to acquisition of military-grade hardware to be used against citizens exercising their first amendment right to free speech and assembly.

The suggestion is that, for instance, schools police should not be investing in grenade launchers.

Defunding is suggested in order to balance up the budget in some cities, where it can be seen that the police budget is greater than the amount spent on EVERYTHING else by the city. The police force is getting over half the budget. The city budget is effectively the police budget, with all others fighting for the scraps.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 14, 2020, 09:18:52 PM
Defunding the police is not the same as total removal of police. Defunding means reallocating budgets so that (for instance) the police spend what they do get on things which work for the community, as opposed to acquisition of military-grade hardware to be used against citizens exercising their first amendment right to free speech and assembly.
Right. Exactly this.

This is where the level of debate in the public arena is so depressingly low and polarised.
Tucker deliberately conflates defunding the police with the removal of police when that just isn't what defunding the police means.
So he builds the strawman and knocks it down.

"Maybe we should have some restriction on the more powerful guns.
"THEY WANT TO TAKE ALL OUR GUNS AWAY!"

"Maybe we should spend less of our budget on police and more on some community programmes intended to reduce criminal behaviour"
"THEY WANT TO REMOVE ALL THE POLICE!"

*sigh*...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2020, 09:43:56 PM
Defunding the police is not the same as total removal of police. Defunding means reallocating budgets so that (for instance) the police spend what they do get on things which work for the community, as opposed to acquisition of military-grade hardware to be used against citizens exercising their first amendment right to free speech and assembly.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Tucker deliberately conflates defunding the police with the removal of police when that just isn't what defunding the police means.

Incorrect. They are demanding reduced police presence.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/505307-ocasio-cortez-dismisses-proposed-1b-cut-defunding-police-means-defunding

Quote
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) said New York City's proposed $1 billion cut from the police department budget tiptoes around demands from activists who are asking for a reduced police presence.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on July 14, 2020, 09:45:21 PM
A world without police looks like "a suburb" according to liberal dem leadership.

Why is he "imagining" this?

Because he's trying to scare people. It's what he does. It's what most of them do at Fox News. Amplification and distortion for the purposes of sowing fear is basically all the conservatives have left anymore. At least it seems that way when you listen to their loudest voices.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2020, 10:58:23 PM
Incorrect again. The movement is about diminishing the police.

https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/505885-former-nypd-commissioner-slams-de-blasio

Quote
Kelly said de Blasio’s proposed $1 billion cut from the police department’s $6 billion budget, which progressive activists have argued tiptoes around their demands for a reduced police presence, was an example of him caving under pressure.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/what-is-defund-police-trnd/index.html

Quote
There's a growing call to defund the police. Here's what it means

(CNN) There's a growing group of dissenters who believe Americans can survive without law enforcement as we know it. And Americans, those dissenters believe, may even be better off without it.

The solution to police brutality and racial inequalities in policing is simple, supporters say: Just defund police.
It's as straightforward as it sounds: Instead of funding a police department, a sizable chunk of a city's budget is invested in communities, especially marginalized ones where much of the policing occurs.

The concept's been a murmur for years, particularly following the protests against police brutality in Ferguson, Missouri, though it seemed improbable in 2014.

But it's becoming a shout. With the deaths of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor at the hands of police and nationwide protests demanding reform, Minneapolis officials announced their intent to defund and disband the city's police force altogether.

https://www.thecut.com/2020/06/what-does-defund-the-police-mean-the-phrase-explained.html

Quote
As of now, the Minneapolis City Council has not released any specifics regarding its approach to defunding the city’s $193.3 million police budget, though some members have offered general ideas. “We can invest in cultural competency and mental health training, de-escalation and conflict resolution … We can resolve confusion over a $20 grocery transaction without drawing a weapon or pulling out handcuffs,” wrote Councilman Steve Fletcher in an op-ed for Time. “The whole world is watching. We can declare policing as we know it a thing of the past, and create a compassionate, non-violent future.”

It says nothing like the zero-source explanations here that were made up on the spot.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: garygreen on July 14, 2020, 11:28:18 PM
there's less crime in the suburbs because all the people living in the suburbs have all the shit they need to get by. they have access to employment and housing and high-quality city services. those are the things that actually reduce violence and property crimes.

it doesn't have shit to do with police presence.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 15, 2020, 06:00:46 AM
Incorrect again. The movement is about diminishing the police.

Yes. And instead doing things which mean such a large police presence isn’t necessary.
All the articles you quote explain this but as usual you bold the parts which you think back up your point and ignore the rest.
Now all you need to do is explain why this is a bad thing. The straw man people like you create around this is that defunding the police means you call 911 and no one is there. It doesn’t mean that. It means you spend money on programs intended to deal with the root causes in areas of high crime - those causes usually to do with poverty and the breakdown of families. Again, why is that a bad thing?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 15, 2020, 09:21:16 AM
Tom, it's clear that many police forces up and down your country have spent an absolute sh*tload of money on equipment which has NO PURPOSE other than to brutalise the citizens who actually fund the police.

The American taxpayer has given some city police forces a budget of greater than HALF the entire city budget; more than 50%; the majority of the budget.

We can see what they spent it on; seemingly endless supplies of -  plexiglass shields; batons and other hand weapons; helmets; body armour; gas masks; plastic zip-tie cuffs; baton rounds, and launchers; rubber bullets & launchers; pepper balls & launchers; tear gas & launchers; flash-bang grenades & launchers, etc, etc. This stuff has NO PURPOSE other than to cause pain and suffering.

Tell us truthfully - wouldn't you prefer that your money went on something other than this in your community?

EDIT - add to the above list, camouflage outfits. For what possible reason would the police want camouflage gear? On the streets of a city? (End edit)


When teachers are dipping into their own pockets to provide educational supplies for their students, wouldn't you agree with at least some money being taken away from the police budget to better educate the children? These are the children of the taxpayers whose money is being spent by the police...

When citizens in your country are queuing up for food banks, wouldn't you prefer that some of that police budget goes on food to feed the taxpayer? 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 15, 2020, 10:48:13 AM
There's a video doing the rounds on social media at the moment, showing the New Jersey police citing a citizen for carrying an open beer in public. There's around half a dozen of them pushing him over a park bench, pinning him to the ground, cuffing him, and leading him away.

In another instance, in Portland, a group of around 15 officers swarm someone for chalking on the pavement. later charging them with "destruction of government property". This video is notable for the concerted efforts of around a dozen of these fiften to merely get in the way of the camera, and prevent filming of the three or four who are dogpiling the victim.

Looks like some defunding would help here.

Is there anyone on this forum who thinks that this is a worthwhile use of police time or resources? Is there anyone here who would consider this the result of having too many police standing around, looking for something to do?


In other news, nineteen LAPD officers stand accused of falsification of incident reports, and conspiracy to do so. The criminal complaint against the first three of those officers includes 59 counts of wrongdoing.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2020, 03:42:52 PM
Tom, it's clear that many police forces up and down your country have spent an absolute sh*tload of money on equipment which has NO PURPOSE other than to brutalise the citizens who actually fund the police.

That's not what the movement is about, and is your own imagination. See the above quotes. They want fewer or no police.

CNN Video: Could a School Shooting Really Be Handled Without Police? (1m30s)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/videos/us/2020/06/15/school-shooting-police-reform-defund-vf-js-orig.cnn

A couple of guys in the interview clips concede that maybe we do need police, while the BLM co-founder lady says that she wants unarmed people responding to a school shooting. lol

More interviews:

Community leaders discuss what a world without police would look like?

https://youtu.be/RlQGU-hR4d8 (https://youtu.be/RlQGU-hR4d8)

"I'm also down with a team of grandmothers showing up to the scene. No one is going to hurt someone's grandma."

Clearly, there are some well thought out plans here by community leadership.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 15, 2020, 03:49:38 PM
*sigh*

Nice cherrys you're picking, as always.
Obviously there will be a range of opinions on any topic and some people's views will be "out there" and not viable. You always present the most extreme views on any topic, or ones which back up your point, and ignore the rest.

It would be nice if we could get to a society where police aren't actually needed, I think almost everyone would agree we probably can't get there. But if some areas are so rough that a heavy police presence is required then surely it is worth exploring whether things can be done about the root causes of that, fix those and maybe you will end up with communities which are less lawless and don't need such a big police presence. I'd suggest that's a good thing and worth considering.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 15, 2020, 03:51:16 PM
Tom, please respond to what I actually say, rather than telling me what I'm saying is inconsistent with a "movement" that you refer to...

EDIT - the New York Times has compiled a series of NYPD brutalities toward protesters; there's a lot of them, for what is routinely explained away as a "few bad apples" ...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/14/nyregion/nypd-george-floyd-protests.html?smid=tw-share
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on July 15, 2020, 05:17:44 PM
Tom, please respond to what I actually say, rather than telling me what I'm saying is inconsistent with a "movement" that you refer to...

It looks like you're trying to have a legitimate debate with a notorious troll.

Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2020, 06:17:00 PM
*sigh*

Nice cherrys you're picking, as always.
Obviously there will be a range of opinions on any topic and some people's views will be "out there" and not viable.

How is it cherry picking to post the anti-police demands of the Patrisse Cullors, Co-Founder of Black Lives Matter, and the the statements of the leaders of similar activist movements?

(https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/2013_Black-Lives-Matter-Founders.jpg?w=1061&quality=85)

"Patrisse Cullors, Alicia Garza, and Opal Tometi - The Founders of Black Lives Matter"

"Cherry picking"  ::)

The other source is credited as the professor who started the post-George Floyd call of eliminating police:

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/breaking-the-news/imagine-a-world-without-police/89-c0ce0e9f-a5be-499f-9671-4a0cd8b7d2aa

Quote
"Envision a world where we don't have police. Like really think about that," he said. "What would a world without police look like? We have to create that."

Instead of wondering what if, Jason Sole is mentally designing a blueprint for a world without police. Sole is a criminal justice professor at Hamline University and founder of Humanize My Hoodie.

...

Sole hosted a Zoom call the day after George Floyd died in police custody for people to share their feelings and plan for the future. On that call, Sole raised the question: Why do we need police?

...

Eleven days later after Sole challenged others to reimagine, Minneapolis City Council asked a similar question.

A plan to replace the Minneapolis Police Department is not yet laid out, but council member Ellison says some actions will happen within "the next couple of weeks."

Quote from: Tumeni
Tom, please respond to what I actually say,

I don't see a need. That's not what they are demanding. I would learning about these subjects before making statements of what you think is occurring.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 15, 2020, 06:49:35 PM
Tom started this conversation talking about Dem Leadership and is now talking about BLM as representing their views.  His argument is about as good as saying that a neo-nazi group represents Republican Leadership views.  It's an argument safely ignored.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: garygreen on July 15, 2020, 07:00:05 PM
tom isn't wrong that the movement is about literally abolishing the police. that's what it's about. police are a net-detriment to the communities they purportedly serve. they are an opportunity-cost to the money we could be spending on public policies that actually reduce crime.

for one thing, police are extremely shitty at clearing violent crimes. the national clearance rate for violent crimes sits at around 20% (https://arresttrends.vera.org/clearance-rates#bar-chart) and has done so for the last 50 years.
(https://i.imgur.com/3opZoF6.png)

of course, this belies the fact that the few felonies police solve tend to be obvious, straight-forward cases. this isn't CSI, where a team of investigators pours over a stone-cold-whodunit for weeks on end until finally cracking the case. tbh if you murder someone who isn't your wife, you will almost certainly get away with it.

only 5% of arrests are related to violent offenses. (https://arresttrends.vera.org/arrests#infographic) put another way: the next cop you see is more likely to be on his way to beat his wife than to solve — or make an arrest on — a felony criminal complaint.

fuck spending money on that.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2020, 08:02:16 PM
Tom started this conversation talking about Dem Leadership and is now talking about BLM as representing their views.  His argument is about as good as saying that a neo-nazi group represents Republican Leadership views.  It's an argument safely ignored.

Very incorrect. The DNC officially endorsed BLM in 2015:

https://madison365.com/dnc-adopts-resolution-supporting-black-lives-matter/

Quote
DNC Adopts Resolution Supporting Black Lives Matter

The Democratic National Committee passed a resolution Friday afternoon supporting the Black Lives Matter movement at the party’s summer meeting in Minneapolis.

Congressional representatives are supporting BLM and its stances:

AOC supports Defund the Police demands in wake of George Floyd's death (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aoc-supports-defund-the-police-demands-george-floyd)

Quote
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez threw her weight behind a growing movement to defund police departments that has become a rallying cry for some protesters in the wake of George Floyd's death.

The progressive firebrand put her stamp of approval on the far-left demand as a policy solution to combat police brutality and racial injustice during a congressional primary debate that aired Friday night on NY1.

https://theliberal.ie/black-lives-matter-to-create-armed-wing-as-democrat-congresswoman-signals-support-for-defunding-police/

Quote
Democrat representatives have actually entertained the idea of de-funding the police with Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib tweeting “Know that it’s still both, but don’t let the “who” overshadow the decades of structural racism that has created the system that allows police officer after police officer off the hook for murder. I just want us to dig deeper so that the #DefundPolice movement isn’t brushed aside.” Expressing such sentiment would have been considered lunacy and political suicide just weeks ago but are now being voiced by key figures in the Democratic Party.

[Congresswoman] Bustos now considers ‘Black Lives Matter’ a movement with ‘credibility’ after saying in 2017, ‘I don’t dwell on them’ (https://www.wcia.com/news/capitol-news/bustos-now-considers-black-lives-matter-a-movement-with-credibility-after-saying-in-2017-i-dont-dwell-on-them/)

As the coronavirus pandemic pummeled both the Bronx and Westchester, the congressman weathered criticism for staying in Washington. Engel returned home to speak in support of the Black Lives Matter movement... (https://www.courthousenews.com/incumbent-democrats-could-face-reckoning-in-new-york-primary/)

Rep. Kirkpatrick Shares Support for Protesters and Black Lives Matter Movement (https://kirkpatrick.house.gov/2020/06/02/rep-kirkpatrick-shares-support-for-protesters-and-black-lives-matter-movement-condemns-the-presidents-response/)

Rep. Ayanna Pressley said on the House floor that the Black Lives Matter movement is a “mandate,” and the time has come for people to “pay us what you owe us.” (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/pressley-black-lives-matter-is-a-mandate-from-the-people-its-time-pay-us-what-you-owe-us)

Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Texas), who supports the movement, said Black Lives Matter activists "can take a great deal of credit for moving the criminal justice agenda forward" (https://www.voanews.com/usa/black-lives-matter-injects-agenda-us-presidential-politics)

Congresswoman Barbara Lee (D-Oakland) is pushing for legislation to unpack and address the deep-rooted history of systemic racism in the United States and sustain the Black Lives Matter movement into the future. (https://www.berkeleyside.com/2020/06/09/rep-barbara-lee-wants-to-form-a-healing-commission-to-reckon-with-400-years-of-systemic-racism)

Sure.. No official support for BLM, just like a neo-nazi group... maybe you should pay more attention to the foreign American news that you feel qualified to comment on.

Wrong and debunked.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 16, 2020, 02:28:48 AM
We were talking about Dem Leadership, no? AOC is about as close to leadership as it gets in that bunch but none of their house majority leaders, whips, speaker of the house, presidential candidates, etc...

There are people within the Democratic Party that hold far left views, yes. They aren’t the leadership and they aren’t a majority.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2020, 05:52:58 AM
Actually, members of congress are among the highest echelons of the Democratic Party. Those are all democrat party leaders.

They are generally pandering for BLM. Even the house majority leader:

Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/nancy-pelosi-protest-george-floyd-black-lives-matter-washington-dc-a9547781.html) - "Speaker Nancy Pelosi joined a protest against the death of George Floyd and police brutality on Wednesday in Washington, DC. The House of Representatives’ leading Democrat was pictured stepping out near the Capitol Building to show support to the Black Lives Matter movement."

Black Lives Matter: Nancy Pelosi pushes Senate to pass George Floyd bill (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12343518)

(https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/06/AFP_Pelosi_Takes-A-Knee.1.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=1236&h=820&crop=1)

"Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and other Democratic lawmakers take a knee to observe a moment of silence on Capitol Hill for George Floyd and other victims of police brutality"

Last month Joe Biden said that he was against defunding police. This month weak Joe Biden is now obviously starting to pander to BLM with vague statements on redirecting funding.

The Epoch Times - Biden Says Some Funding Should Be Redirected From Police Departments (https://www.theepochtimes.com/biden-says-some-funding-should-be-redirected-from-police-departments_3417299.html)

"Presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden said Wednesday that some funding should be redirected from police departments as some activists and Democrats have called to 'defund the police' in the wake of protests and riots across the United States in recent weeks."

You are clearly misinformed that Black Lives Matter is not a supported movement in Congress and among democrat leadership.

I believe you said that BLM were equivalent to an unsupported "neo-nazi group". ::)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 16, 2020, 08:58:02 AM
This month weak Joe Biden is now obviously starting to pander to BLM with vague statements on redirecting funding.

Wouldn't you rather have someone who recognises what's right in the Oval Office, in preference to a third-rate baked beans salesman who panders to the most recent CEO to brown-nose him?

(https://thehill.com/sites/default/files/trump_goya.jpg)

(https://themediabolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Ivanka-Trump-plugs-Goya-beans-on-Instagram-but-may-have.jpg)

Sequence of events;

CEO of Goya says at WH meeting he is "blessed" to have Trump in office
Ivanka poses on Instagram with CEO's product, violating ethics rules
POTUS poses with CEO's product, also violating ethics rules. Who's the weak one here?

Honestly, in the midst of a global pandemic, with Florida reporting 15,000 COVID cases in one day, THIS is the most important thing for the POTUS and advisor/daughter to do? Really?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 16, 2020, 09:07:53 AM
Tom, please respond to what I actually say, rather than telling me what I'm saying is inconsistent with a "movement" that you refer to...

EDIT - the New York Times has compiled a series of NYPD brutalities toward protesters; there's a lot of them, for what is routinely explained away as a "few bad apples" ...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/14/nyregion/nypd-george-floyd-protests.html?smid=tw-share

Greg Doucette's gallery of abuses that I mentioned earlier, compiled since late May/early June, has now reached almost 800 instances, and he still has a backlog. He has stated that the NYT report contains some additional instances that didn't make it onto his gallery....

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 16, 2020, 10:20:32 AM
Tom started this conversation talking about Dem Leadership and is now talking about BLM as representing their views.  His argument is about as good as saying that a neo-nazi group represents Republican Leadership views.  It's an argument safely ignored.
Safely ignored from a distance, somewhere in your Canadian bunker perhaps?

BLM does represent the views of a majority of Democrats in the US.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 16, 2020, 11:42:19 AM
Tom started this conversation talking about Dem Leadership and is now talking about BLM as representing their views.  His argument is about as good as saying that a neo-nazi group represents Republican Leadership views.  It's an argument safely ignored.
Safely ignored from a distance, somewhere in your Canadian bunker perhaps?

BLM does represent the views of a majority of Democrats in the US.

Nice made up stats.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 16, 2020, 12:14:27 PM
Tom started this conversation talking about Dem Leadership and is now talking about BLM as representing their views.  His argument is about as good as saying that a neo-nazi group represents Republican Leadership views.  It's an argument safely ignored.
Safely ignored from a distance, somewhere in your Canadian bunker perhaps?

BLM does represent the views of a majority of Democrats in the US.

Nice made up stats.
Made up stats?

There are no stats necessary about a Marxist organization being openly supported by prominent Democrats in the House, Senate, and other prominent positions in US Government.

But go ahead.

Start your tally of Democrats openly opposing the Marxist Agenda promoted by BLM.

I could list 2 to every 1 you come up with.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 16, 2020, 12:28:20 PM

Nice made up stats.
Made up stats?

There are no stats necessary about a Marxist organization being openly supported by prominent Democrats in the House, Senate, and other prominent positions in US Government.

But go ahead.

Start your tally of Democrats openly opposing the Marxist Agenda promoted by BLM.

I could list 2 to every 1 you come up with.

So you admit you made that up. I will just ignore this then.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 16, 2020, 12:54:01 PM

Nice made up stats.
Made up stats?

There are no stats necessary about a Marxist organization being openly supported by prominent Democrats in the House, Senate, and other prominent positions in US Government.

But go ahead.

Start your tally of Democrats openly opposing the Marxist Agenda promoted by BLM.

I could list 2 to every 1 you come up with.

So you admit you made that up. I will just ignore this then.  Thanks!
I didn't make anything up.

There is documented evidence, some posted by Tom right here, demonstrating what Tom and I have written is absolutely true.

Given you are in Canada, you cannot possibly know anything regarding this topic.

If you have any evidence whatsoever indicating a majority of Democrats do not support BLM Marxist ideology then by all means post it.

I will take evidence of just one Democrat not supporting it.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 16, 2020, 02:51:39 PM
I didn't make anything up.

You sure did.  You have no evidence that the majority of the Democratic party holds these beliefs.  That's over 22M people, in case you were wondering how absurd your claim is.  You probably can't even prove that a majority of Dem congresspeople hold these beliefs.

Quote
There is documented evidence, some posted by Tom right here, demonstrating what Tom and I have written is absolutely true.

A few people does not make up a majority, sorry to break it to you.

Quote
Given you are in Canada, you cannot possibly know anything regarding this topic.

Yawn.  Oh?  Are you still trotting out this irrelevant comment?  Here let me try: given you are in the USA, you can't possibly know what Canadians know.

Quote
If you have any evidence whatsoever indicating a majority of Democrats do not support BLM Marxist ideology then by all means post it.

I will take evidence of just one Democrat not supporting it.

"No, I don't support defunding the police," Biden said on Monday. (https://www.businessinsider.com/democrats-reject-calls-to-defund-the-police-from-blm-protesters-2020-6)

Wow, it's almost like you are just pushing a narrative, not because it's true, but because it suits your feelings.  It was trivially easy to debunk your claim, why don't you do the honest thing and actually try to substantiate your words with facts?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2020, 03:26:32 PM
Quote from: Rama Set
"No, I don't support defunding the police," Biden said on Monday. (https://www.businessinsider.com/democrats-reject-calls-to-defund-the-police-from-blm-protesters-2020-6)

Wow, it's almost like you are just pushing a narrative, not because it's true, but because it suits your feelings.  It was trivially easy to debunk your claim, why don't you do the honest thing and actually try to substantiate your words with facts?

That's not a statement from Joe Biden on BLM. Joe Biden does not say that he disavows BLM or does not support BLM.

That comment was from last month. This month he is pandering to BLM:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Last month Joe Biden said that he was against defunding police. This month weak Joe Biden is now obviously starting to pander to BLM with vague statements on redirecting funding.

The Epoch Times - Biden Says Some Funding Should Be Redirected From Police Departments (https://www.theepochtimes.com/biden-says-some-funding-should-be-redirected-from-police-departments_3417299.html)

"Presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden said Wednesday that some funding should be redirected from police departments as some activists and Democrats have called to 'defund the police' in the wake of protests and riots across the United States in recent weeks."
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 16, 2020, 03:51:19 PM
That comment was from last month. This month he is pandering to BLM:

... and your point is .. what? That Joe Biden is forbidden to change his mind or modify his stance on anything?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2020, 04:21:25 PM
It shows Joe Biden bending the knee to BLM. After Joe Biden made those comments last month his base turned against him:

From last month: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/26/joe-biden-refuses-get-woke-will-the-democratic-base-still-embrace-him-340753

"Joe Biden refuses to get woke, will the democratic base still embrace him" (url title)

"Why Biden Is Rejecting Black Lives Matter's Boldest Proposals"

"Internally, Biden’s campaign is balancing how to best respond to the transformational demands of protesters while maintaining his commanding lead over Trump."

Now this month Joe Biden is starting to "get woke," nullifying Rama Set's example that there is a large base in the Democratic party who disavow or reject BLM.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 16, 2020, 04:30:08 PM
Like I said - are you forbidding him to change his mind or modify his stance on anything? If so, why?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2020, 06:11:08 PM
I don't really care how spineless Joe Biden flip-flops on his policy positions. I already knew that about him.

Even the mere existence of the slogan "Defund the Police" in the Democrat party base points towards a 2020 loss. You guys are clearly shameless and unrepenting extremists, but regular Americans are not. Like regular people are going to actually vote en-mass for GaryGreen's radical ideas for playing games and experimenting with public safety with a police-less society, or for that party sharing those ideas. Joe Biden holding out a hand to these radical positions, "changing his mind" on a whim, and seeking to appease BLM, rather than disavowing them, only gives it legitimacy, advertisement, and therefore fodder, for his loss in November.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 16, 2020, 06:14:18 PM
I don't really care how spineless Joe Biden flip-flops on his policy positions. I already knew that about him.

Imagine thinking that someone is spineless because they changed their mind.  You would have to conclude that Trump is spineless.  Enjoy that.

Quote
Even the mere existence of the slogan "Defund the Police" in the Democrat party base points towards a 2020 loss. You guys are clearly shameless and unrepenting extremists, but regular Americans are not.

Only in an extremists world does "divert funds from the police" become identical to "defund the police".  There is no nuance or rationality in your position, Tom.

Quote
Like regular people are going to actually vote en-mass for GaryGreen's radical ideas for playing games and experimenting with public safety with a police-less society, or for that party sharing those ideas. Joe Biden holding out a hand to these radical positions and seeking to appease them, rather than disavowing them, only gives it legitimacy, advertisement, and therefore fodder, for his loss in November.

Well, as has been pointed out numerous times, the official position of Biden's campaign does not include a policy promise to abolish the police.  Perhaps you should stop the straw man?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2020, 07:22:58 PM
Quote
Only in an extremists world does "divert funds from the police" become identical to "defund the police".  There is no nuance or rationality in your position, Tom.

Biden's team obviously knows that campaigning outright on a platform of defunding or abolishing the police won't work, yet is pandering to BLM instead of disavowing them.

- Big name democrat companies and celebrities supporting BLM
- Big name democrat politicians supporting and pandering for BLM, in public, on the stump, and on the House floor
- Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi pandering for BLM
- No big name democrats have disavowed BLM

The American public equivocates a vote for the Democratic Party to be a vote for BLM. 1 + 1 = 2.

People are not going to justify "well, Joe Biden't didn't say outright that he was going to defund the police..." That's only the type of logic justification you personally perform when you are on the losing side of a debate. Everyone already knows that the democrats support and pander to BLM. That's going to be the highlight, and democrat leaders, including Joe Biden, will refuse to disavow.

Biden doesn't need to claim that he's going to abolish the police. His party does the talking for him. Yet you think that people will vote for his party and hinge everything on your desperate loopy logic. It's already over.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 16, 2020, 07:26:21 PM
My “desperate loopy logic”? How nice. You will forgive me for not taking you seriously. You support a president who called the Charlottesville white supremacists “good people” but think that someone who doesn’t overtly agree but also doesn’t denounce BLM as a far-left extremist. Good talk, Tom. Romney is still winning by a landslide somewhere.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 17, 2020, 02:34:18 AM
I see that you concede the discussion and fail to present any compelling argument for why reasonable people will vote for BLM-pandering Joe Biden or the BLM-pandering Democrat movement, and now want to talk to me about something about Trump.

You have implicitly admitted that the platform message of "Defund the Police" is non-viable. You are foolishly believing that people will choose to vote for Democtrats/BLM instead of not voting or voting for the opposition. See, you actually have to have a working and compelling plan that people like, and are actually motivated to support. Extremist views and "he's not Trump" is a failure of a platform. Even if someone doesn't like Trump, that does not mean that they are going to vote for an extremist party promoting radical views that they don't believe in or are motivated for.

The green/libertarian/I'm not going to vote party also has "he's not Trump." It is a fallacy and demonstration of failure to try to divert the attention to Trump with your false opinion editor rubbish instead of addressing your failing liberal movement. You need to look in the mirror and admit that people aren't going to vote for that ugliness.

Maybe if you understood that you guys won't be so confused when you continue to lose elections and why "bbbbuttt Trumppp" doesn't work. That didn't work in 2016, and won't work now. People have to want what you are selling for that to work.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 17, 2020, 02:37:43 AM
Well that’s a lot of made up shit right there. I can’t force you to be compelled by my arguments just as none of your arguments are compelling for me. Me disagreeing with you doesn’t make me an exemplar of what you despise on the left.

Your utterly hyperbolic pronouncements simply don’t match my observations of the current climate in the USA. I see many cities exploring a new paradigm for government interaction with areas that are in desperate need of help. That’s good in my books. These changes were prompted by a boil over of anti-establishment sentiment that got ugly. That’s sad and frustrating in its discordance, but I’m hopeful that it will produce a net positive change.

Are these changes a result of politicians being pressured by their constituents? Yes! Guess what? They are supposed to be at the service of their constituents. Not paternalistically wagging a finger at them. I will concede that there is real danger of decision makers being a prisoner of the moment, but I’ve long been of the opinion that police and the justice system have been tools of the wealthy and needed to be overhauled. So let’s see it change even though the change is painful because I want something better to replace the stagnant establishment in the US. Biden isn’t it, but it’s really hard to imagine someone being worse than Trump. I still think Trump will win in 2020 because Biden is just the same old corporatist candidate and he will breed complacency and the GOP will so enough in their campaign, ethical and unethical, to win. It won’t matter either way because the president simultaneously has too big a job and not enough influence for it to matter. The post is a distraction from the institutions that prop up corporate money that fucks over everyone, you included.

Anyway, I have way more thought to troll nonsense than I should have. So have at me for being a legit Marxist Nazi Slave OwnerTM or whatever else you dream up.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 17, 2020, 09:31:14 AM
If Biden is "BLM-pandering Biden", then that makes Trump "Goya-pandering Trump" ...

Do you realise, Tom, that simply tacking an adjectival epithet onto the front of the candidate's name is just petty name-calling, and makes no substantive point at all ... ?

See you over on the Trump thread if you want to continue down this road. This thread was started to discuss whether or not the police are out of control. In this regard, they still are. Almost 800 cases of casual and intended brutality since late May/beginning of June, and that's just those collected by ONE civil defence attorney....

In Portland, unidentified folk in camouflage gear have been seen wordlessly grabbing people off the streets, bundling them into unmarked vehicles, and taking them away. No statement they are under arrest, no reading of rights, just wordless grabbing and disappearance .....

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette

Also,

https://projects.propublica.org/protest-police-tactics/

"looked at nearly 400 social media posts showing police responses to protesters and found troubling conduct by officers in at least 184 of them. In 59 videos, pepper spray and tear gas were used improperly; in a dozen others, officers used batons to strike noncombative demonstrators; and in 87 videos, officers punched, pushed and kicked retreating protesters, including a few instances in which they used an arm or knee to exert pressure on a protester’s neck.

While the weapons, tactics and circumstances varied from city to city, what we saw in one instance after another was a willingness by police to escalate confrontations."
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 17, 2020, 03:23:52 PM
There you guys go, talking about Trump again. The argument "He's not trump" DOES NOT WORK. Even if you/the media successfully convince people that Trump is bad, that doesn't mean that they are voting for your side. They may not vote or vote for some other opposition. Trump character assassination was tried all through the last 2016 election cycle, and failed. You need to have a compelling and populist platform that people want and like.

Quickly, what was Hillary Clinton's main platform for presidency? It was "I'm a woman!" and some vague stuff about rising middle class incomes. Nothing compelling or organic that people were really excited about. On the other hand, Trump focused on illegal immigration problems and 'drain the swamp' and the like, and quickly became a populist figure, ultimately elected as President of the United States.

If you can't tell us how and why people are really exited about the Democrat's compelling platform, it's a lost cause. You are just hoping that people 'vote blue no matter who'. Continuing the ol' say-some-stuff-about-Trump-and-hope-people-vote-for-my-side tactic will not work.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on July 17, 2020, 03:35:08 PM
There you guys go, talking about Trump again. The argument "He's not trump" DOES NOT WORK. Even if you/the media successfully convince people that Trump is bad, that doesn't mean that they are voting for your side. They may not vote or vote for some other opposition. Trump character assassination was tried all through the last 2016 election cycle, and failed. You need to have a compelling and populous platform that people want and like.

Quickly, what was Hillary Clinton's main platform for presidency? It was "I'm a woman!" and some vague stuff about rising middle class incomes. Nothing compelling or organic that people were really excited about. On the other hand, Trump focused on illegal immigration problems and 'drain the swamp' and the like, and quickly became a populist figure, ultimately elected as President of the United States.

If you can't tell us how and why people are really exited about the Democrat's compelling platform, it's a lost cause. You are just hoping that people 'vote blue no matter who'. Continuing the ol' say-some-stuff-about-Trump-and-hope-people-vote-for-my-side tactic will not work.
But more importantly, yes, American police are out of control.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 18, 2020, 05:36:10 PM
With events in Portland, perhaps the thread should be retitled...

"Are the American police, DHS, National Guard and other unspecified agencies out of control?"

...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 20, 2020, 10:32:06 AM
I didn't make anything up.

You sure did.  You have no evidence that the majority of the Democratic party holds these beliefs.  That's over 22M people, in case you were wondering how absurd your claim is.  You probably can't even prove that a majority of Dem congresspeople hold these beliefs.
Yeah, like Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer really do not presume to speak for the majority of Democrats.

Funny how the news primarily seeks out their message each and every time.
Quote
There is documented evidence, some posted by Tom right here, demonstrating what Tom and I have written is absolutely true.

A few people does not make up a majority, sorry to break it to you.
Considering the few that are quoted the most do in fact represent the majority, you are breaking nothing.
Quote
Given you are in Canada, you cannot possibly know anything regarding this topic.

Yawn.  Oh?  Are you still trotting out this irrelevant comment?  Here let me try: given you are in the USA, you can't possibly know what Canadians know.
And I don't care to, given the shape of your government.
Quote
If you have any evidence whatsoever indicating a majority of Democrats do not support BLM Marxist ideology then by all means post it.

I will take evidence of just one Democrat not supporting it.

"No, I don't support defunding the police," Biden said on Monday. (https://www.businessinsider.com/democrats-reject-calls-to-defund-the-police-from-blm-protesters-2020-6)

Wow, it's almost like you are just pushing a narrative, not because it's true, but because it suits your feelings.  It was trivially easy to debunk your claim, why don't you do the honest thing and actually try to substantiate your words with facts?
"Published July 8
Biden says some funding should 'absolutely' be redirected from police"

Redirecting = defunding.

Wow.

It is like what I wrote above is actually true.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 20, 2020, 11:45:16 AM
Around 800 cases of casual and intended brutality since late May/beginning of June, and that's just those collected by ONE civil defence attorney....

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette

Latest instance, also found on Instagram, in Loveland, Colorado;

Man walks into store, objects to wearing mask. Some verbal conflict may have been involved. Goes outside, police arrive, and at the point where things are documented on video, three police are holding him on the ground; a fourth joins in and draws a baton, a fifth joins in, repeatedly punches and kicks the victims legs, pins them down, dropping a KNIFE from an ankle holster in the process, a knife which he is seen to replace in its holster.

Is a knife in an ankle holster standard police issue?

Eye witness accounts have the victim being taken away on a stretcher. Eye witness accounts have multiple white people walking around in the store without masks, but - surprise, surprise - the victim was black.

Looks out of control. How do they manage to get from the citizen walking into a store without injury, to the point where he is carried away on a stretcher, simply for verbal objection? Why are the American police so bad at this?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 20, 2020, 12:06:20 PM
Around 800 cases of casual and intended brutality since late May/beginning of June, and that's just those collected by ONE civil defence attorney....

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette

Latest instance, also found on Instagram, in Loveland, Colorado;

Man walks into store, objects to wearing mask. Some verbal conflict may have been involved. Goes outside, police arrive, and at the point where things are documented on video, three police are holding him on the ground; a fourth joins in and draws a baton, a fifth joins in, repeatedly punches and kicks the victims legs, pins them down, dropping a KNIFE from an ankle holster in the process, a knife which he is seen to replace in its holster.

Is a knife in an ankle holster standard police issue?

Eye witness accounts have the victim being taken away on a stretcher. Eye witness accounts have multiple white people walking around in the store without masks, but - surprise, surprise - the victim was black.

Looks out of control. How do they manage to get from the citizen walking into a store without injury, to the point where he is carried away on a stretcher, simply for verbal objection? Why are the American police so bad at this?
"At the point where things are documented on video..."

THE BAD STUFF STARTS...

LOL!!!

Typical post from you Tumeni...

Probably tried to go upside one of the police officer's heads prior to the video...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 20, 2020, 12:23:47 PM
Yeah, like Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer really do not presume to speak for the majority of Democrats.

Funny how the news primarily seeks out their message each and every time.

We can't really talk if you want to keep moving the goal posts.  Presuming to speak for the majority is different than what the majority believes.
Quote
Considering the few that are quoted the most do in fact represent the majority, you are breaking nothing.

See above.

Quote
And I don't care to, given the shape of your government.

You're American, what could you possibly know about the shape of my government?  :-B

Quote
"Published July 8
Biden says some funding should 'absolutely' be redirected from police"

Redirecting = defunding.

Wow.

It is like what I wrote above is actually true.

Totally.  It is totally like it is true if you just interpret words how you want to so that your world view hangs together.  Nevermind that he just released a statement saying that he would increase police funding in some places too.  That doesn't fit the narrative.  Trump tried to pull the exact same trick on Fox News and he turned out to be just as wrong as you are.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 20, 2020, 02:31:59 PM
Probably tried to go upside one of the police officer's heads prior to the video...

He didn't.

Why do American police lack any restraint skills, beyond dog-piling four or five at a time on top of a suspect? Don't they get training?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 20, 2020, 03:22:07 PM
Probably tried to go upside one of the police officer's heads prior to the video...

He didn't.
Source?
Why do SOME American police lack any restraint skills, beyond dog-piling four or five at a time on top of a suspect? Don't they get training?
Given that the word SOME was missing out of your reply, I would state that it is obvious police in the US do receive training.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 20, 2020, 03:26:07 PM
Yeah, like Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer really do not presume to speak for the majority of Democrats.

Funny how the news primarily seeks out their message each and every time.

We can't really talk if you want to keep moving the goal posts.  Presuming to speak for the majority is different than what the majority believes.
There is no moving of the goalposts.

They do speak for the majority of Democrats.
Quote
Considering the few that are quoted the most do in fact represent the majority, you are breaking nothing.

See above.
See above.
Quote
And I don't care to, given the shape of your government.

You're American, what could you possibly know about the shape of my government?  :-B
Given you have been unable to adequately describe it in order to provide any evidence of my lack of knowledge, I think we can safely deduce you too are lacking in this area.
Quote
"Published July 8
Biden says some funding should 'absolutely' be redirected from police"

Redirecting = defunding.

Wow.

It is like what I wrote above is actually true.

Totally.  It is totally like it is true if you just interpret words how you want to so that your world view hangs together.  Nevermind that he just released a statement saying that he would increase police funding in some places too.  That doesn't fit the narrative.  Trump tried to pull the exact same trick on Fox News and he turned out to be just as wrong as you are.
I am not interpreting the words the way I want.

Biden wants to redirect police funding to other programs not covered by the police programs.

If the police are not going to get those funds, that does indeed = defunding.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 20, 2020, 03:46:25 PM
Yes, ignore the part where he wants to increase the funding to police departments.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 20, 2020, 04:35:38 PM
Source?

The police version;

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/07/15/loveland-police-video-arrest-target/

"Police responded to the parking lot on Monday. Target management reported a man “getting into people’s faces: and being “extremely hostile.”

Police tell CBS4 it may have been due to a mask issue. The man reportedly refused to leave, but later walked outside and sat in the middle of the road and blocked traffic.

“All of this is the criminal part that allowed the officer to detain him, until he could confirm the conduct with the store management,” police said.

The video shows the officer get out of his vehicle to approach a man walking away in the store’s parking lot. The officer asks the man multiple times “what’s going on today?”

The man is then seen turning around toward the officer and walking toward him. The officer tells him to “not walk up on me, sir” several times.

The man can be heard saying “you can’t tell me that.”

When the man continues to walk toward the officer, the officer pushes the man away with his hand two separate times. The man stumbled backward after the second push, and fell to the ground. He laid there for a brief moment before the officer tried to handcuff the man.

At that time, two other officers responded and jumped in to help.

The officers appeared to have trouble detaining the man, as he continued to say “you can’t tell me that.”

Officer told the man to stop resisting and to cooperate.

More officers responded. Some were seen hitting the man in an effort to subdue him.

After about three or four minutes of the confrontation, the man was handcuffed.

In a social media post, Loveland police say the man was causing a disturbance inside and outside of the store and refused to leave. They add medical personnel responded to tend to the man.

Police officials say it is not clear if the man was under the influence, and medical personnel said he was okay, so a test was not administered.

A video posted to Instagram shows five officers trying to subdue the man. One officer is seen punching and kneeing the man’s right leg. Another officer is seen taking her baton out, but police say it was used as leverage to help subdue the man.

“It was a very myopic depiction of the event and did not offer any perspective on how or why the officers were arresting him. It is extremely important for the community to know the entire story. It might look excessive, but consider the alternatives,” official said.

The Loveland Police Department issued the following statements to CBS4 Wednesday night about specifics in the use of force:

The officer used force because the suspect did not cooperate and physically resisted the legal direction given to him.  The baton was not used to strike; it was used as a lever to pry the suspect’s arm out from underneath him when he refused to bring is arm back. The other officer struck the suspect with his fist on the suspect’s calf. This is a trained technique to distract the suspect without causing injury, allowing the other officers to get his arms under control.  In this case, it worked. The suspect did not cooperate with the officer’s direction to maintain a safe distance so low level force was used to bring him into compliance. That is standard operating procedure and happens on a daily basis. Considering the reason the officer was called to the scene, along with the man’s refusal to maintain a safe distance, it escalated the situation to one of a higher level of threat.  When the man went down, the officer was correct in taking that opportunity to handcuff him for everyone’ safety. If he had simply complied, there would not have been a conflict. They also noted officers most often wear masks, but are not required to do so when there’s a potential for conflict because it raises the level of danger toward the officer."

= =

So ... the victim did nothing worse than sit in the road, get a bit mouthy, and walk toward the police officer. No suggestion that he did anything worse than this.

At which point, the officer pushed him to the ground and they dogpiled him.

Note from the video that with three officers on top of him, his legs are not moving. He's not kicking, I can't see any movement at all from him. When the last officer grabs at his legs, that's when they move. No resistance until he is grabbed from behind by someone he cannot see, who then starts kicking and punching  the backs of his legs, and who, once again, is ARMED WITH A KNIFE in an ankle holster, something which I would suggest is not standard police issue. He can be seen replacing this in the holster, since it fell out when he kicked the victim's legs.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 21, 2020, 01:10:43 AM
Good news. Trump to send more federal law enforcement into cities.

https://youtu.be/fdxGifv6a7A
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 21, 2020, 08:34:50 AM
Good news. Trump to send more federal law enforcement into cities.

... for unidentified troops to sweep in, silently gather people off the streets and carry them off in unmarked vehicles, just like Portland?

Is that the kind of America you want, Tom, where citizens can disappear, and witnesses to the disappearance have NO IDEA who has taken them, and where they have been taken? Where the troops making them disappear say nothing, do not tell the citizen WHY they are being taken away, do not charge them with any offence, and do not read them their rights?

Edited for my grammer mistake

Further edit; The ACTING head of DHS says "I don't need invitations by the state, state mayors, or state governors to do our jobs. We're going to do that, whether they like us there or not"

Are they liberators who will be welcomed by the populace, or a hostile occupying force, sent to suppress them?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 21, 2020, 10:05:53 AM
Yes, ignore the part where he wants to increase the funding to police departments.
Describe exactly what form the supposed increase is.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 21, 2020, 10:35:16 AM
Good news. Trump to send more federal law enforcement into cities.

... for unidentified troops to sweep in, silently gather people off the streets and carry them off in unmarked vehicles, just like Portland?

Is that the kind of America you want, Tom, where citizens can disappear, and witnesses to the disappearance have NO IDEA who has taken them, and where they have been taken? Where the troops making them disappear say nothing, do not tell the citizen WHY they are being taken away, do not charge them with any offence, and do not read them their rights?

Edited for my grammer mistake

Further edit; The ACTING head of DHS says "I don't need invitations by the state, state mayors, or state governors to do our jobs. We're going to do that, whether they like us there or not"

Are they liberators who will be welcomed by the populace, or a hostile occupying force, sent to suppress them?
Suppress them from doing what?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 21, 2020, 12:02:17 PM
Yes, ignore the part where he wants to increase the funding to police departments.
Describe exactly what form the supposed increase is.

Funding.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 21, 2020, 12:29:23 PM
Yes, ignore the part where he wants to increase the funding to police departments.
Describe exactly what form the supposed increase is.

Funding.
What form is the supposed funding supplied?

Describe it.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 21, 2020, 01:04:54 PM
Yes, ignore the part where he wants to increase the funding to police departments.
Describe exactly what form the supposed increase is.

Funding.
What form is the supposed funding supplied?

Describe it.

I encourage you to go read instead of playing a clumsy game of 'gotcha!'
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 21, 2020, 03:29:58 PM
Yes, ignore the part where he wants to increase the funding to police departments.
Describe exactly what form the supposed increase is.

Funding.
What form is the supposed funding supplied?

Describe it.

I encourage you to go read instead of playing a clumsy game of 'gotcha!'
I am not playing a clumsy game of "gotcha."

If it is truly there, then you can just as well cite the specific form of the supposed funding.

You cannot.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 21, 2020, 03:33:10 PM
Cool so you won’t even look. Chris Wallace corrected Trump on it in his interview. Joe Biden has made official announcements about it. Be a good skeptic and don’t take my word for it.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 21, 2020, 03:52:49 PM
Cool so you won’t even look. Chris Wallace corrected Trump on it in his interview. Joe Biden has made official announcements about it. Be a good skeptic and don’t take my word for it.
Oh, I looked.

I was wondering if you had looked.

Joe Biden stated clearly he was going to redirect funds from the police to other programs.

No question about that.

The question is, why should I believe Chris Wallace when redirecting funding from the police programs does indeed = defunding police programs.

If you were getting 2 dollars a day from a source and now are getting 1 dollar a day from that same source, you would not consider that defunding?

That's a pretty simple question.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on July 21, 2020, 04:35:53 PM
He also promised to add $300M to reinvigorate community policing.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 21, 2020, 07:05:50 PM
Joe Biden said that funding should be redirected.

The Epoch Times - Biden Says Some Funding Should Be Redirected From Police Departments (https://www.theepochtimes.com/biden-says-some-funding-should-be-redirected-from-police-departments_3417299.html) - "Presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden said Wednesday that some funding should be redirected from police departments as some activists and Democrats have called to 'defund the police' in the wake of protests and riots across the United States in recent weeks."
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on July 21, 2020, 09:10:13 PM
Good news. Trump to send more federal law enforcement into cities.

https://youtu.be/fdxGifv6a7A

Pardon me if I am incorrectly assuming, but it was my impression that you are in favor of less government/federal intervention in the lives of American's, not more???

How is this a good thing?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 22, 2020, 11:27:10 AM
Good news. Trump to send more federal law enforcement into cities.

https://youtu.be/fdxGifv6a7A

Pardon me if I am incorrectly assuming, but it was my impression that you are in favor of less government/federal intervention in the lives of American's, not more???

How is this a good thing?
I am in favor of less government/federal intervention in the lives of law abiding Americans.

So is Tom, I am sure.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 22, 2020, 11:29:48 AM
I am in favor of less government/federal intervention in the lives of law abiding Americans. So is Tom, I am sure.

So you agree that those who are exercising their First Amendment rights to free assembly, petition and protest (I'm paraphrasing 1A) are law-abiding citizens, then?

And that any inhibition of their rights is unwarranted federal intervention?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 22, 2020, 11:35:56 AM
I am in favor of less government/federal intervention in the lives of law abiding Americans. So is Tom, I am sure.

So you agree that those who are exercising their First Amendment rights to free assembly, petition and protest (I'm paraphrasing 1A) are law-abiding citizens, then?

And that any inhibition of their rights is unwarranted federal intervention?
Of course.

People who are engaging in legitimate free assembly and engaging in the filing of legitimate petitions should be protected.

Always should be.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 22, 2020, 01:56:43 PM
People who are engaging in legitimate free assembly and engaging in the filing of legitimate petitions should be protected.

So, for instance, beating such people with batons would be wrong?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 22, 2020, 03:16:07 PM
People who are engaging in legitimate free assembly and engaging in the filing of legitimate petitions should be protected.

So, for instance, beating such people with batons would be wrong?
I am unsure how you equate the word "be protected," with "beating with batons."
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on July 22, 2020, 03:22:36 PM
Right, In favor of less government/federal intervention in the lives of law abiding Americans, but think it's fine that a guy was pinned to the ground for dancing since dancing is so suspicious and we must be protected against people dancing.

Ok.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 22, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
Right, In favor of less government/federal intervention in the lives of law abiding Americans, but think it's fine that a guy was pinned to the ground for dancing since dancing is so suspicious and we must be protected against people dancing.

Ok.
The guy wasn't pinned down for dancing in the street.

We went over that already.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 22, 2020, 03:49:19 PM
I am unsure how you equate the word "be protected," with "beating with batons."

There are numerous examples of police and other federal troops beating peaceful protesters with batons. I am not "equating" this with protecting their 1A rights, I am suggesting that this behaviour is in direct contradiction of such rights.

The most-covered recent example is the Navy Veteran who stood stock still, and took multiple baton blows from an (out-of-control) militia man until the double dose of pepper spray became too much for him. There's loads more examples to be found. He's not commiting any offence apart from standing there, and he's the focus of malicious beating simply for the sake of it. They're not trying to detain him, charge him with anything, they're just beating on him for sport.

cnn.it/3ju7FEQ (http://cnn.it/3ju7FEQ)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 22, 2020, 03:59:28 PM
I am unsure how you equate the word "be protected," with "beating with batons."

There are numerous examples of police and other federal troops beating peaceful protesters with batons. I am not "equating" this with protecting their 1A rights, I am suggesting that this behaviour is in direct contradiction of such rights.
And I would too if this is what is actually happening.
The most-covered recent example is the Navy Veteran who stood stock still, and took multiple baton blows from an (out-of-control) militia man until the double dose of pepper spray became too much for him. There's loads more examples to be found. He's not commiting any offence apart from standing there, and he's the focus of malicious beating simply for the sake of it. They're not trying to detain him, charge him with anything, they're just beating on him for sport.

cnn.it/3ju7FEQ (http://cnn.it/3ju7FEQ)
Yeah, read the article and then try to make sense out of the complete telling of events.

There can be no slant to the reporting of this story at all! [/sarcasm]

That is an absolutely hilarious article!
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on July 22, 2020, 04:08:29 PM
Right, In favor of less government/federal intervention in the lives of law abiding Americans, but think it's fine that a guy was pinned to the ground for dancing since dancing is so suspicious and we must be protected against people dancing.

Ok.
The guy wasn't pinned down for dancing in the street.

We went over that already.
What was he pinned down for then? Because as it happens they didn't have reason to do so and they're now receiving training after being placed on administrative leave and being investigated for their actions. Almost like they weren't trained well enough for the situation. It's a pretty clear cut case, he was detained for no real reason. the officers escalated a non-situation for no reason and for what? Because they had someone call the police about him dancing. Seems pretty clear cut to me, the officers were so far in the wrong that actions were taken against them. Strange that. Not sure why you're still defending officers for doing something stupid and clearly wrong. while claiming you think there should be less of that.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 22, 2020, 06:34:28 PM
Yeah, read the article and then try to make sense out the complete telling of events.
There can be no slant to the reporting of this story at all! [/sarcasm]
That is an absolutely hilarious article!

I've seen it from two different angles, and it's a clear sequence of events; he stands there; one militia man pushes him; this has no effect, so militia man takes his baton IN BOTH HANDS and delivers around half a dozen blows, which have little to no effect, and another militian man taps baton man on the shoulder to stop, at which point tap man and one another blast two loads of pepper spray at the vet's face at point-blank range, and he has to turn away.

I have no difficulty making sense of it. Why do you find it hilarious?

Why are you trying to distract from the clear use of excessive force without probable cause, i.e. infringement of 1A rights?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 23, 2020, 10:33:36 AM
Right, In favor of less government/federal intervention in the lives of law abiding Americans, but think it's fine that a guy was pinned to the ground for dancing since dancing is so suspicious and we must be protected against people dancing.

Ok.
The guy wasn't pinned down for dancing in the street.

We went over that already.
What was he pinned down for then? Because as it happens they didn't have reason to do so and they're now receiving training after being placed on administrative leave and being investigated for their actions. Almost like they weren't trained well enough for the situation. It's a pretty clear cut case, he was detained for no real reason. the officers escalated a non-situation for no reason and for what? Because they had someone call the police about him dancing. Seems pretty clear cut to me, the officers were so far in the wrong that actions were taken against them. Strange that. Not sure why you're still defending officers for doing something stupid and clearly wrong. while claiming you think there should be less of that.
I am not going to repeat myself as I already wrote those reasons earlier.

Feel free to go review the, as can everyone else.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on July 23, 2020, 10:38:31 AM
Yeah, read the article and then try to make sense out the complete telling of events.
There can be no slant to the reporting of this story at all! [/sarcasm]
That is an absolutely hilarious article!

I've seen it from two different angles, and it's a clear sequence of events; he stands there; one militia man pushes him; this has no effect, so militia man takes his baton IN BOTH HANDS and delivers around half a dozen blows, which have little to no effect, and another militian man taps baton man on the shoulder to stop, at which point tap man and one another blast two loads of pepper spray at the vet's face at point-blank range, and he has to turn away.

I have no difficulty making sense of it. Why do you find it hilarious?

Why are you trying to distract from the clear use of excessive force without probable cause, i.e. infringement of 1A rights?
You have seen the video which picks up events when the people pushing a specific narrative, which is truly contrary to actual support of free speech, peaceful protests, and free assembly.

Even your description "one militia man pushes him; this has no effect," is ridiculous and false.

The article I read from the NY Times states the supposedly "peaceful protesters," were engaged in removing lawfully erected barricades.

That is not peaceful protesters.

The Navy veteran was there and actually should have tried to stop the "peaceful protesters,' or at least moved away from the scene.

Wouldn't surprise me if he was actually aiding and abetting.

He certainly looks like he simply asked them a question.

Total lie from this shitbag calling himself a Navy veteran.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 31, 2020, 09:07:14 AM
You have seen the video (T - I've seen two, actually - I thought that was made clear above) which picks up events when the people pushing a specific narrative, which is truly contrary to actual support of free speech, peaceful protests, and free assembly.

Sorry, but this is ungrammatical gibberish

Even your description "one militia man pushes him; this has no effect," is ridiculous and false.

Clear from one or both videos. Vet standing still, short-arse camo guy pushes him, which fails to move him back to any significant degree. That's "no effect")

The article I read from the NY Times states the supposedly "peaceful protesters," were engaged in removing lawfully erected barricades.

So what? The vet was not involved in this. Besides which, you're taking issue with my two videos of the actual interaction, but citing WHAT YOU READ from the NYT ...?)

That is not peaceful protesters.

Again, so what?

The Navy veteran was there and actually should have tried to stop the "peaceful protesters,' or at least moved away from the scene.  Wouldn't surprise me if he was actually aiding and abetting.

So you have no evidence that he was aiding and abetting, and all you can do is suppose that he did ...)

Total lie from this shitbag calling himself a Navy veteran.

Would love to witness the scene where you tell him this to his face...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 31, 2020, 09:10:53 AM
In other news;

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/07/29/us/nevada-douglas-county-library-sheriff-trnd/index.html

Librarians express support of BLM.

Sheriff responds by appearing to claim he and his officers will henceforth not respond to any 911 call from the library, appearing to selectively choose which citizens he and they serve according to whether or not he or they agree with their views.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 31, 2020, 09:27:14 AM
Police and/or Feds in Portland have been seen to launch tear-gas canisters not along the ground, but almost vertically, so that they take a ballistic trajectory, and land in the groups of protesters from above. Given the size, material and weight of these canisters, they could cause considerable harm to those below, should they hit them from above.

There is no reason to do this, other than spite, malice, and the wish to actually cause harm to the protesters.

The American taxpayer is not paying police or Feds to exact harm upon their citizens for no reason other than spite and malice.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on July 31, 2020, 11:24:14 PM
Last night in Portland, control ceded to local police, Feds went away, and - Hey, Presto! - a night of reasonably peaceful protests.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 02, 2020, 07:37:15 AM
NYPD tramples protesters, the constitution, legal statutes, and their own rule book ...

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/video-police-abuses-nypd-trampling-constitution-reveal-inefficacy-reform-ncna1235333

"Earlier in July, The New York Times released its analysis of dozens of brutal videos depicting NYPD’s policing in the first 10 days of recent protests. As public defenders and attorneys specializing in criminal and civil law, The Times asked us and others, like the NYPD, which declined, to review this video and assess the NYPD’s behavior against department guidelines, civil rights protections of the U.S. Constitution and criminal legal statutes.

What we found was highly disturbing, but likely obvious to even the casual observer. Officers used banned chokeholds, violence and abuse that the NYPD has explicitly prohibited. Officers used cars, chemicals, bicycles and batons as weapons, all against protocol. They engaged in widespread excessive force and civil rights violations. They repeatedly committed conduct that, if perpetrated by anyone but police, would lead to prosecutions for violent felonies that carry serious prison time.

And as the nation has witnessed this week, the brazen violence against protestors during those first 10 days was not an aberration."

"In every encounter we analyzed, officers violated at least two specific prohibitions laid out in the Patrol Guide. The most common violations we saw were refusals to provide names and badge numbers, excessive force, unlawful arrests, improper use of pepper spray, failure to provide medical care, accosting clearly identified legal observers, and punishing protestors for speech, including with chokeholds. Taken together, we can only conclude that officers feel free to violate the NYPD’s stated mission, vision and values."

"In incident after incident, we saw officers using force without any provocation or justification and needlessly escalating encounters, predictably causing more violence."

"In over half the videos we reviewed, we saw clear-cut evidence of conduct that would surely invite violent felony charges if the perpetrators hadn’t been wearing badges. This included numerous instances of assault in the second degree, a class D violent felony punishable by up to seven years in prison; of robbery or forcible theft of bicycles and backpacks, a class C violent felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison; of rioting in the first degree for repeatedly “engaging in tumultuous and violent conduct” that caused or created "a grave risk of causing public alarm,” criminal use of a chemical weapon, and even attempted murder — one count for each protester in the path of the officers who drove their cars into crowds. "


Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on August 03, 2020, 11:12:51 AM
You have seen the video (T - I've seen two, actually - I thought that was made clear above) which picks up events when the people pushing a specific narrative, which is truly contrary to actual support of free speech, peaceful protests, and free assembly.

Sorry, but this is ungrammatical gibberish
Okay. Let me rephrase it.

Whatever video you have seen picks events after the the "peaceful protestors," removed lawfully erected barricades.

That is not an act of peace, nor is it an exercise of any First Amendment right.
Even your description "one militia man pushes him; this has no effect," is ridiculous and false.

Clear from one or both videos. Vet standing still, short-arse camo guy pushes him, which fails to move him back to any significant degree. That's "no effect")
The guy moves.

Some effect.
The article I read from the NY Times states the supposedly "peaceful protesters," were engaged in removing lawfully erected barricades.

So what? The vet was not involved in this. Besides which, you're taking issue with my two videos of the actual interaction, but citing WHAT YOU READ from the NYT ...?)
Yep.

The NYT states the "peaceful protestors," unlawfully removed lawfully erected barricades.

Not peaceful, not lawful.

It doesn't matter whether or not the vet was one of them who did it or not.

He presented himself as being on the side of those who did do it.
That is not peaceful protesters.

Again, so what?
LOL!!!

Yeah, so what you write...After trying to state it was peaceful protestors as the ones getting beat.

If you are taking up sides with people who have committed unlawful acts, you are not a peaceful protestor.
The Navy veteran was there and actually should have tried to stop the "peaceful protesters,' or at least moved away from the scene.  Wouldn't surprise me if he was actually aiding and abetting.

So you have no evidence that he was aiding and abetting, and all you can do is suppose that he did ...)
No, the evidence is he was there getting beaten and pepper sprayed.
Total lie from this shitbag calling himself a Navy veteran.

Would love to witness the scene where you tell him this to his face...
I am sure you would.

Maybe someday.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: totallackey on August 03, 2020, 11:15:12 AM
In other news;

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/07/29/us/nevada-douglas-county-library-sheriff-trnd/index.html

Librarians express support of BLM.

Sheriff responds by appearing to claim he and his officers will henceforth not respond to any 911 call from the library, appearing to selectively choose which citizens he and they serve according to whether or not he or they agree with their views.
Hey, the librarians can call their nearest BLM rep and I am sure they will respond immediately!
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 03, 2020, 01:33:32 PM
In other news;

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/07/29/us/nevada-douglas-county-library-sheriff-trnd/index.html

Librarians express support of BLM.

Sheriff responds by appearing to claim he and his officers will henceforth not respond to any 911 call from the library, appearing to selectively choose which citizens he and they serve according to whether or not he or they agree with their views.
Hey, the librarians can call their nearest BLM rep and I am sure they will respond immediately!

It’s crazy that you think it’s fine that law enforcement pick and choose when to do their job based on political affiliation.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 03, 2020, 04:17:45 PM
(Tumeni said - "Would love to witness the scene where you tell him this to his face...")

I am sure you would. Maybe someday.

He's on Twitter. Log on there and tell him all that you think about him, then we can all watch.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 04, 2020, 09:54:08 PM
Click for bigger.

(https://i.imgur.com/qkq83xG.jpg)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 04, 2020, 11:04:25 PM
You’ll do anything to keep your framework intact, won’t you?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on August 04, 2020, 11:10:34 PM
Click for bigger.

<image from above>

OK - you're right. Murdering George Floyd was completely justified. While we're at it, why don't we go ahead and eliminate all the scum in the world. Fuck everyone who doesn't walk your straight line and bow down to the man.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 05, 2020, 12:28:26 AM
I don't see a police killing. Floyd is saying that he is not able to breathe long before he is pinned to the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPSwqp5fdIw&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2020, 12:38:24 AM
I don't see a police killing. Floyd is saying that he is not able to breathe long before he is pinned to the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPSwqp5fdIw&feature=youtu.be

So let’s call it gross negligence causing death and maybe you will go away?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on August 05, 2020, 02:06:11 AM
I don't see a police killing. Floyd is saying that he is not able to breathe long before he is pinned to the ground.

<video above>

I can see the officers are clearly frustrated with the situation. George says he wants to comply, but resists all the way saying he's claustrophobic and can't breathe. Who wouldn't want to knock him over the head with a baton right then and there?

That is their job, however, is it not? To deal with this kind of behavior, however irrational, and to do it while PROTECTING the lives of the people they encounter - that is their obligation when they took their oath. To do any less is shameful and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If you can't take it, get the fuck out. We give police officers more power than we give ordinary citizens. This is why we do it - to PROTECT! Knowing that they will be put in situations that challenges their morality, character; their very essence. We expect that in these situations they will uphold the very thing we as a country bled and died for - sovereignty and independence. Police officers and any law enforcement - military included - are expected to be held to a higher standard. Actions like those officers who dealt with George Floyd is a disgrace to this country.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 05, 2020, 09:11:03 AM
I don't see a police killing. Floyd is saying that he is not able to breathe long before he is pinned to the ground.

... but he's saying that to police officers, who you agree "pinned (him) to the ground".

So if the police had never arrived on the scene, would Floyd still be alive today, or not?

Was his lack of breath due to police involvement, or not?

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 05, 2020, 08:36:56 PM
It is clear that Floyd is on drugs. He acts very erratic and complains of breathing distress while standing up in the open air. Autopsy report shows that he had lethal levels of fentanyl in his system.

https://youtu.be/lia-IMDQJU4?t=184
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on August 05, 2020, 08:39:17 PM
It is clear that Floyd is on drugs. He acts very erratic and complains of breasting distress while standing up in the open air. Autopsy report shows that he overdosed on fentanyl.

<video from above>

Again, so right. He's on drugs, let's put em out of his misery. Why should his life matter?

Let's go full commie and kill everyone who does the illegal drugs! Cuz drugs are bad 'mkay
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 05, 2020, 09:00:29 PM
Floyd may have been dying of an overdose. See this comment from reporter and author Paul Sperry:

(https://i.imgur.com/oQu7JLn.png)

Source (https://twitter.com/paulsperry_/status/1268579743399542785?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1268579743399542785%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fthedonald.win%2Fp%2FFysYHFdi%2Fi-had-no-idea-george-floyd-was-o%2Fc%2F)

Reddit is having a crisis over the new George Floyd media:

(https://i.imgur.com/6Wu5wQ6.png)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 05, 2020, 10:41:18 PM
Floyd may have been dying of an overdose.

If this is true, don't you find it totally fecking scandalous that the police sat on him for almost 10 minutes and did not help him?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 05, 2020, 10:47:55 PM
Floyd may have been dying of an overdose.

If this is true, don't you find it totally fecking scandalous that the police sat on him for almost 10 minutes and did not help him?

Actually, they called an ambulance for him.

https://usnewslatest.com/nyt-described-detailed-transcripts-of-george-floyds-last-moments/

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: garygreen on August 05, 2020, 11:21:59 PM
yeah george floyd probably just happened to die at the exact same time as a grown man was kneeling on his neck. total coincidence.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2020, 01:19:53 AM
You seem to believe that police are not trained at all in their use of force on subjects. The Floyd incident happened in Minneapolis on May 25, 2020. The Neck Restraint is, or was, a standard and approved technique by the Minneapolis PD and requires training.

From their procedure manual from a June, 2020 snapshot:

http://archive.vn/gncPE#selection-4953.0-5001.139

Quote
5-311 USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
DEFINITIONS I.

Choke Hold: Deadly force option. Defined as applying direct pressure on a person’s trachea or airway (front of the neck), blocking or obstructing the airway (04/16/12)

Neck Restraint: Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints. The MPD authorizes two types of neck restraints: Conscious Neck Restraint and Unconscious Neck Restraint. (04/16/12)

Conscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious, by only applying light to moderate pressure. (04/16/12)

Unconscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure. (04/16/12)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 06, 2020, 02:53:35 AM
Police do all sorts of stupid shit they are trained not to do. Where is the evidence this technique was used appropriately? The circumstances didn’t call for it since Floyd was already restrained and docile so it seems they were already operating outside their training and policies.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 06, 2020, 05:11:50 AM
Where is the evidence this technique was used appropriately?
Shouldn't this be going the other way around? Shouldn't we have to prove that this technique was the actual cause of death when other (non-murderous) alternatives exist?

Of course, this question is not a hard one to answer. Two autopsies were performed (though only one of them is actually useful here), the medical examiner concluded that the cause of death was the compression applied to his neck.

The super sudden narrative-breaking revelation that he was high as a kite actually comes from the autopsy report (https://web.archive.org/web/20200604001830/https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf). It's something we knew since the beginning. By the way, he was also positive for coronavirus. Maybe it was actually COVID kneeling on his neck?!
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 06, 2020, 09:11:31 AM
Two days ago, from Amnesty International;

Quote
"Amnesty International USA Recorded 125 Separate Incidents of Police Violence Against Protesters, Medics, Journalists and Legal Observers in 40 States and D.C. During May and June Protests

The Report Chronicles the Stories of More Than 50 People Affected by Police Violence "

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/08/usa-law-enforcement-violated-black-lives-matter-protesters-human-rights/
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 06, 2020, 11:37:17 AM
Where is the evidence this technique was used appropriately?
Shouldn't this be going the other way around? Shouldn't we have to prove that this technique was the actual cause of death when other (non-murderous) alternatives exist?

Of course, this question is not a hard one to answer. Two autopsies were performed (though only one of them is actually useful here), the medical examiner concluded that the cause of death was the compression applied to his neck.

The super sudden narrative-breaking revelation that he was high as a kite actually comes from the autopsy report (https://web.archive.org/web/20200604001830/https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf). It's something we knew since the beginning. By the way, he was also positive for coronavirus. Maybe it was actually COVID kneeling on his neck?!

I was addressing Tom’s implication that because they have a technique in their manual and some sort of training that it’s implausible that the technique was use improperly.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 06, 2020, 11:45:00 AM
I was addressing Tom’s implication that because they have a technique in their manual and some sort of training that it’s implausible that the technique was use improperly.
Oh, I know that; but I think you're walking yourself into a trap. All that this line of discussion could lead to is countless accounts of how the police use similar techniques all the time without killing anyone. All medical evidence points towards the fact that (while there have been other factors that made Floyd's death more likely), the actual cause of death was the pressure applied to his neck, so any discussion of the technique's merits is largely out of the question.

There's a reason "Irrelevant." used to be a bit of a catchphrase around here ;)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2020, 02:07:11 PM
Actually....

Thedenverchannel.com - Medical examiner releases autopsy report on George Floyd, differs from family’s independent autopsy (https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/national/george-floyd-autopsy-floyd-died-from-heart-attack-complicated-by-being-restrained-compressed)

"An autopsy released by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner on Wednesday showed that George Floyd officially died from a heart attack."

"The government-released autopsy differs with an autopsy conducted by the Floyd family, which states Floyd died of 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure.'"
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 06, 2020, 02:36:55 PM
Actually....
dis gon' be good

"Medical examiner releases autopsy report on George Floyd, differs from family’s independent autopsy"
As I said - only one autopsy report matters. The medical examiner has to disclose everything he finds, while the private "independent" report can disclose whatever they choose to. There is no need to bring the "independent" report into this.

"An autopsy released by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner on Wednesday showed that George Floyd officially died from a heart attack."
I only just linked you to the original. You could have read it. The cause of death was "CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION". Yes, he died from a cardiopulmonary arrest, but its cause is clearly stated. This is why, even according to your local news source (you could have read it), "The County Medical Examiner said on Monday that the manner of death was a homicide."
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2020, 03:02:28 PM
Homicide could just be a technical ruling. See the bolded below:

www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/05/experts-george-floyds-medical-issues-dont-affect-homicide-ruling/amp/

"George Floyd had drugs in his system and severe heart disease when a Minneapolis police officer put a knee to his neck, but independent experts said the medical problems revealed in the full autopsy report don’t change the conclusion that the handcuffed man’s death was a homicide.

'He has some underlying conditions' that made it more likely he would not fare well under stress, said Dr. Gregory Davis, medical examiner for Jefferson County, Ala., and a pathology professor at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. But the circumstances of Floyd’s May 25 death are not ignored in Wednesday’s report, which said “restraint and neck compression are part of why he died,” Davis said.

Dr. Stephen Nelson, chairman of Florida’s medical examiners commission, agreed. Even if someone with severe heart disease died of a heart attack during a purse-snatching, “we’d still call it a homicide,” he said.

“Is this stress associated with his interaction with law enforcement enough to put him over the edge? Yes, it is,” Nelson said."

-

So they are calling it associated stress, and do not deny that he had other conditions. The first bolded quote from Dr. Nelson implies that they would call it a homicide regardless.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 06, 2020, 03:06:07 PM
Damn, Tom, you're cycling through doctors like there's no tomorrow! It's a shame you once again forgot to read your source and provided us with more evidence against your position.

You see, your new favourite doctor would prefer if we threw your cardiac arrest story out the window entirely, because it just happens to be a technical term:

Quote from: http://www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/05/experts-george-floyds-medical-issues-dont-affect-homicide-ruling/amp/
Cardiopulmonary arrest simply means his heart and breathing stopped, which happens when anyone dies.

“It’s really a meaningless term,” Nelson said. In Florida, directions printed on death certificates tell doctors not to use it and to be more precise and descriptive.

“I would use the word ‘traumatic asphyxia’ due to neck compression and restraint due to law enforcement subdual,” Nelson said. “I don’t think you can discount the video.”
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2020, 03:10:31 PM
The doctor says the technical term used alone doesn't mean much of anything.

But, if we continue reading the article...

HEART DISEASE

Several of Floyd’s key heart arteries were severely narrowed — evidence of serious heart disease. Several were 75 percent blocked and one was 90 percent blocked, and that was made worse by where the clogs occurred in terms of crimping the supply of blood to his heart, Nelson said. Blockages of 70 percent or more usually cause chest pain, he added.

“That degree of narrowing is sufficient to cause death,” Davis said.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 06, 2020, 03:25:16 PM
The doctor says the technical term used alone doesn't mean much of anything.
No, he doesn't, and he proposes a term he'd consider more suitable for this specific case. I already quoted it for you. You could have read it.

Tom, the problem with you quote-mining is that the rest of the article, once again, completely disagrees with you. This is why you need to read the whole thing, not just fish for sentences that you think support your position.

Nobody dismisses his underlying health conditions. Indeed, he had many health issues which could kill him any moment, but didn't. However, all of your sources thus far agree that while his overall health was a contributing factor, the cause was deemed to be homicide.

If you wanna keep doing that, meh, enjoy. But at least try to read the whole article next time. Find a source that doesn't immediately disprove your position. It's silly how much you've slipped recently.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2020, 03:54:10 PM
The fact is that Floyd had pre-existing ailments sufficient to cause death at the time of his arrest. Not only drugs, but severe heart disease as well. The quotes provided above show that they are calling it a stress associated homicide and that the neck restraint was "part of" it.

None of this is clean cut. What percentage did the stress endure on George Floyd that pushed him over the edge?

How were the police to know that a drug induced man had heart disease sufficient to cause death and was too critical to be restrained with an approved police prosecure?

Are the police liable if their methods cause increased stress that pushes a very sickly man "over the edge"?

All of this "they murdered him!!" nonsense is becoming weaker and weaker, and you know it.

It is suggested with the purse-snatcher heart attack analogy that they would have listed it as a homicide regardless. That homicide ruling is not the court ruling. The court case has yet to conclude.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 06, 2020, 04:13:37 PM
Why would the police have a duty not to put pressure on the neck of a docile, handcuffed man who said he couldn’t breathe!?!
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 06, 2020, 04:29:23 PM
Why would the police have a duty not to put pressure on the neck of a docile, handcuffed man who said he couldn’t breathe!?!

I mean, the only reason to be a cop is to be allowed to kill people.  Everyone knows that.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 06, 2020, 09:16:31 PM
Why would the police have a duty not to put pressure on the neck of a docile, handcuffed man who said he couldn’t breathe!?!

The knee was towards the back side of the neck, not blocking the wind pipe or both carotid arteries. The autopsy does not reflect asphyxial injury of the brain.

Recordnet.com - Guest view: Autopsy of George Floyd did not reveal the truth (https://www.recordnet.com/opinion/20200613/guest-view-autopsy-of-george-floyd-did-not-reveal-truth)
by Dr. Bennet Omalu

Quote
An autopsy is a tool and agent of truth. It provides answers where there are questions.

But the autopsy report on the death of George Floyd didn’t ring true and did not provide answers.


The nearly nine-minute video is disturbing. It shows George Floyd prone on the roadway with his hands cuffed behind his back and Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin kneeling on Floyd’s neck.

Floyd was dying.

The human brain survives on oxygen and glucose supplied by blood that comes from the heart, primarily through the internal carotid arteries and the vertebral arteries in the neck. The jugular veins move blood back to the heart from the brain. The brain is only about 2-3% of a person’s body weight but receives more than 15% of the blood that is pumped by the heart.

Brain cells can tolerate low oxygen and blood levels for only a few seconds before suffering cellular injury. Irreversible injury and death can occur in just 3 to 5 minutes. This means that the human brain can suffer hypoxic-ischemic injury (asphyxial injury) with low levels of oxygen. Absolute lack of oxygen is not needed. And the lethal mechanism of injury in compression of the neck is not occlusion (blockage) of the airways but occlusion of the vessels of the neck. This is why a human being can still speak while he is dying from compression of the neck.

It takes only 4.4 pounds of pressure to compress and occlude the jugular veins and only 11 pounds of pressure to compress and occlude the carotid arteries. Compression of the jugular veins and/or carotid arteries alone is sufficient to cause asphyxial injury of the brain and death. In order to compress the trachea or larynx, greater than 33 pounds of pressure is needed, which is about eight times the amount of pressure needed to compress the internal jugular veins.

Compression of the neck also causes compression injury to vital nerves in the neck. When the motor, sympathetic and parasympathetic nerves in the neck undergo compression, there is a combined effect of slowing the heart and lungs, lowering the blood pressure and stopping the heart, which accentuates asphyxial injury. The higher the scale, and the longer the compression, the greater the risk of attaining irreversible asphyxial injury and dying suddenly like we have in the case of George Floyd.

It is therefore very disappointing that in the George Floyd autopsy report, there was no mention whatsoever of asphyxial injury of the brain. Instead the report states: “No life-threatening injuries identified.” I remain puzzled. The autopsy stated that the brain was “unremarkable” and “showed the expected microscopic architecture, without hypoxic-ischemic, reactive, neoplastic, or inflammatory changes.”

Meanwhile the brain was not saved in whole to be examined by a neuropathologist (brain expert) especially in a high-profile case like George Floyd’s.

Substantial parts of the autopsy report focused on diseases and intoxications that may have contributed to Floyd’s death. Let us think about a hypothetical forensic scenario of a 50-year-old man who suffered from end-stage cancer and was expected to die within six months. One day as he was stepping out of his house, intoxicated with opioid drugs, an intruder shot him in the head and killed him. The security camera in front of his house recorded the shooting. His obvious cause of death would be a gunshot wound of the head. The fact that he suffered from terminal cancer and was intoxicated with drugs would not make any difference and would not contribute to his death.

Why did Floyd’s autopsy have a substantial focus on the diseases and intoxications from which he may have suffered? An autopsy should have provided answers. Ironically, this one instead has provided more questions than answers.

Bennet Omalu is a pathologist and former chief medical examiner for San Joaquin County.

See the bolded in the above.

This pathologist who saw the officer on George Floyd's neck on TV is so confused that the autopsy did not reveal asphyxial injury of the brain.

It is "very disappointing" that the autopsy does not reflect the narrative.

Indeed, the autopsy does not list any life threatening injuries to the neck or brain. Read it for yourself:

https://web.archive.org/web/20200604004807/https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf

Quote
III. No life-threatening injuries identified
A. No facial, oral mucosal, or conjunctival petechiae
B. No injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngeal
structures
C. No scalp soft tissue, skull, or brain injuries
D. No chest wall soft tissue injuries, rib fractures (other
than a single rib fracture from CPR), vertebral column
injuries, or visceral injuries
E. Incision and subcutaneous dissection of posterior and
lateral neck, shoulders, back, flanks, and buttocks
negative for occult trauma

...

INTERNAL EXAMINATION:

HEAD: The soft tissues of the scalp are free of injury. The
calvarium is intact, as is the dura mater beneath it. Clear
cerebrospinal fluid surrounds the 1380 g brain, which has
unremarkable gyri and sulci. Coronal sections demonstrate sharp
demarcation between white and gray matter, without hemorrhage or
contusive injury. The ventricles are of normal size. The basal
ganglia, brainstem, cerebellum, and arterial systems are free of
injury or other abnormalities. There are no skull fractures.
The atlanto-occipital joint is stable.

NECK: Layer by layer dissection of the anterior strap muscles of
the neck discloses no areas of contusion or hemorrhage within
the musculature. The thyroid cartilage and hyoid bone are
intact. The larynx is lined by intact mucosa. The thyroid is
symmetric and red-brown, without cystic or nodular change. The
tongue is free of bite marks, hemorrhage, or other injuries.
The cervical spinal column is palpably stable and free of
hemorrhage.

...

MICROSCOPIC EXAMINATION

BRAIN (10-12): Sections of hippocampus, cerebellum, cerebral cortex, and midbrain show the expected microscopic architecture, without hypoxicischemic, reactive, neoplastic, or inflammatory changes.

...

SPECIAL PROCEDURES:

An incision from the back of the head to the lower back,
extending onto both buttocks, is dissected subcutaneously to the
lateral aspects of the neck, the shoulders, and flanks. No
areas of subcutaneous hemorrhage, soft tissue contusion, or
other occult injury are found in the posterior neck, right and
left lateral neck, shoulders, back, flanks, or buttocks.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on August 07, 2020, 02:20:00 AM
An interesting find, Floyd had tested positive for the novel coronavirus.

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/04/869278494/medical-examiners-autopsy-reveals-george-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus

Are we going to blame cause of death on COVID too?


The following article seems to be a bit bias, but it also counters the point Tom is trying to make, which (biases aside) is still evidence that there are multiple sides to this story. It doesn't seem all that impossible that an organization (or even a mortuary) would lean toward a specific narrative in order to avoid backlash from public pressures. It happens all the time in politics - and this is a VERY political topic.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/george-floyds-autopsy-and-the-structural-gaslighting-of-america/

"...millions of people who had seen nine agonizing minutes of murder were told by an autopsy report that they hadn’t."
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 07, 2020, 02:27:44 AM
"...millions of people who had seen nine agonizing minutes of murder were told by an autopsy report that they hadn’t."

When you watch wrestling do you scream "Stop, you're hurting him!!!" too?

It certainly is possible that the police are appropriately trained to apprehend and detain subjects, like those wrestlers are trained to wrestle each other.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 07, 2020, 08:44:42 AM
"...millions of people who had seen nine agonizing minutes of murder were told by an autopsy report that they hadn’t."

When you watch wrestling do you scream "Stop, you're hurting him!!!" too?

It certainly is possible that the police are appropriately trained to apprehend and detain subjects, like those wrestlers are trained to wrestle each other.

No, for the same reason I don't jump when the bogeyman emerges in the horror film. I know what is staged and what is not. There's nothing to suggest Floyd's death was staged. 

The police may well be trained, but the core of this thread is "are they out of control?".

There are over 800 examples collected by one attorney which show this. There are numerous other examples outwith this. There are specific instances where mayor/governor of a city or state has said "DO NOT USE (selected police training tactic/equipment)", but the police have then ignored the directive, in some cases explicitly stating on social media that they are not going to obey.

Defying their chain of command.
Disobeying their commanders.
Out of control. 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 07, 2020, 02:09:07 PM
"...millions of people who had seen nine agonizing minutes of murder were told by an autopsy report that they hadn’t."

When you watch wrestling do you scream "Stop, you're hurting him!!!" too?

It certainly is possible that the police are appropriately trained to apprehend and detain subjects, like those wrestlers are trained to wrestle each other.

And yet Floyd was unnecessarily restrained and despite protests that he could not breathe there was no effort made to check on his health until the paramedic arrived. Imagine restraining a corpse and thinking “another text book arrest”.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on August 07, 2020, 02:55:53 PM
"...millions of people who had seen nine agonizing minutes of murder were told by an autopsy report that they hadn’t."

When you watch wrestling do you scream "Stop, you're hurting him!!!" too?

It certainly is possible that the police are appropriately trained to apprehend and detain subjects, like those wrestlers are trained to wrestle each other.

If one wrestler begins choking and obviously can't breathe, do you think the match would continue as the wrestler goes limp and passes out?

There is also a stark difference between two trained wrestlers who have an agreed upon contract for what is going to happen, and a police officer pinning someone with dire health conditions against their will.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 09, 2020, 07:13:12 PM
...yet more out-of-control-ness;

Dallas officer shoots female protester three times at point-blank range with pepper-ball gun....

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investigations/2020/08/09/i-felt-like-my-chest-was-on-fire-photo-shows-cop-blasting-a-peaceful-protester-with-a-pepper-ball-gun-at-close-range/
 
The officer has faced a departmental investigation almost annually, over his 20+ years of service (19 investigations), and almost one-quarter of these investigations have resulted in disciplinary action for him.

In what other profession would this level of investigation and disciplinary action be tolerated, with the person under investigation still retaining their job?

I worked for my main employer for 27 years, and wasn't investigated for misconduct even once. If I had been subject to investigation almost once per year, I seriously doubt I would have remained in employment for that length of time.... why do American police get away with this?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 22, 2020, 08:03:58 AM
Detroit officer and his K-9 both out of control.

Officer and K-9 walk along sidewalk outside private dog-owner's home, separated from sidewalk by chain-link fence.

Home-owner's dog barks at K-9 and officer, officer loses control of K-9, the two dogs snarl at each other at or close to the fence, officer shoots the home-owner's dog. All captured on surveillance video. Will hit the mainstream news soon, circulating on twitter at the moment. Will try to link to video and include here.

As someone says in the thread comments on twitter, it seems to be getting to the point where the police consider they have carte blanche to shoot at anything or anyone that impedes their progress, even to the slightest, insignificant degree.   
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on August 22, 2020, 12:03:10 PM
Detroit officer and his K-9 both out of control.

Officer and K-9 walk along sidewalk outside private dog-owner's home, separated from sidewalk by chain-link fence.

Home-owner's dog barks at K-9 and officer, officer loses control of K-9, the two dogs snarl at each other at or close to the fence, officer shoots the home-owner's dog. All captured on surveillance video. Will hit the mainstream news soon, circulating on twitter at the moment. Will try to link to video and include here.

As someone says in the thread comments on twitter, it seems to be getting to the point where the police consider they have carte blanche to shoot at anything or anyone that impedes their progress, even to the slightest, insignificant degree.   
I saw that, whats disturbing is how fast the officer decided to shoot the dog... Not pull his dog away harder, not shoot a warning shot to maybe scare it away, not shoot his own k9 for the equally bad behaviour but no, shoot the dog in a secure back garden for his own negligence. There is no defending this officers behaviour. You would have to be a straight up psychopath to consider that a first option before even breaking a sweat. The officer should be arrested.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 22, 2020, 02:46:36 PM
It’s kinda strange that the K-9 unit isn’t docile while on leash too.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 23, 2020, 10:59:27 AM
"Last year, Detroit paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to settle lawsuits brought by dog owners who say cops shot their pets dead "

Detroit Police Commander Darin Szilagyi said it was the owner's responsibility to keep the dog away from the K9.

"Keep your dogs in the backyards and this won’t be an issue." he said.

... but it WAS in the owner's back yard. And the owners had a fence separating the yard from the footpath.

And why did the K-9 handler allow her dog to get so close to the fence? Couldn't she control it?

Or ... are the police out of control? 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 24, 2020, 03:11:32 PM
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

Totally out of control.

Thankfully, victim is still alive, but obviously in a serious state in hospital. According to one report, he was leaving the scene having broken up a fight between two women.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 24, 2020, 04:29:08 PM
Or ... are the police out of control?
Totally out of control.
Detroit officer and his K-9 both out of control.
You know, you've already made your opinion clear in the thread title. You really don't have to include it in every single post you make.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on August 24, 2020, 07:57:05 PM
Or ... are the police out of control?
Totally out of control.
Detroit officer and his K-9 both out of control.
You know, you've already made your opinion clear in the thread title. You really don't have to include it in every single post you make.
I dunno man he seems on the fence to me.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 26, 2020, 09:13:12 AM
Lafayette, Louisiana - half a dozen, at least, officers shoot a coloured man apparently holding a knife, in the back - a man who was walking away from them. Apparently they followed him for half a mile ...

Half a dozen of them, and they cannot A- catch up with him, and B- disarm him without killing him outright with a reported ELEVEN rounds in the back?

There seems to be plenty of extra police when it comes to taking down unarmed protesters. There's plenty of video of single protesters being dogpiled by half a dozen officers at a time. But not here? I really don't see the difficulty. He's walking away, they have more numbers, just run at him from behind and overpower him with a few officers. Can't American police run?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 26, 2020, 04:41:09 PM
Cops admit vandalizing cars of man who filed complaint against them, prosecutor says

Quote
“Spiteful retaliation from law enforcement officers towards a citizen for any reason is an unacceptable option. This is in no way condoned at any level, for any reason,” Gramiccioni said in the statement. “All members of the law enforcement community must maintain the public’s trust by conducting themselves at the highest level of integrity and decency.”

Authorities say the men wore disguises when they rode their bikes to the vehicles in Ocean Grove and Asbury Park, smashed out the windows and slashed all the tires on Sept. 3 between 3 and 4 a.m.

The vehicles belonged to Ernest G. Mignoli, an outspoken Asbury Park resident critical of the city’s police department. Mignoli, 70, had filed an administrative complaint against both officers several days before the incidents. His “jaw dropped” when he learned that the people responsible for damaging his white Jeep Liberty and Toyota Prius were police officers, he said in an interview with NJ Advance Media last year.

https://www.nj.com/monmouth/2020/08/cops-admit-vandalizing-cars-of-man-who-filed-complaint-against-them-prosecutor-says.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on August 27, 2020, 12:38:55 AM
Cops admit vandalizing cars of man who filed complaint against them, prosecutor says

Quote
“Spiteful retaliation from law enforcement officers towards a citizen for any reason is an unacceptable option. This is in no way condoned at any level, for any reason,” Gramiccioni said in the statement. “All members of the law enforcement community must maintain the public’s trust by conducting themselves at the highest level of integrity and decency.”

Authorities say the men wore disguises when they rode their bikes to the vehicles in Ocean Grove and Asbury Park, smashed out the windows and slashed all the tires on Sept. 3 between 3 and 4 a.m.

The vehicles belonged to Ernest G. Mignoli, an outspoken Asbury Park resident critical of the city’s police department. Mignoli, 70, had filed an administrative complaint against both officers several days before the incidents. His “jaw dropped” when he learned that the people responsible for damaging his white Jeep Liberty and Toyota Prius were police officers, he said in an interview with NJ Advance Media last year.

https://www.nj.com/monmouth/2020/08/cops-admit-vandalizing-cars-of-man-who-filed-complaint-against-them-prosecutor-says.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true

September 3rd? Did they mean August 3rd?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 27, 2020, 08:20:31 AM
Sep 3, 2019.

Yes, it HAS taken that long for the story to reach social and mainstream media. I see that reports of the accusation against them were published last year.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 27, 2020, 08:30:38 AM
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

A few days later, a white 17-year old is permitted to mingle with protesters, open-carrying some sort of rifle, and police do nothing to stop him. He manages to shoot two or three people, some of whom are trying to stop him, others who identify him to the police as having shot people, yet the police let him go and he crosses the state line to go home to Illinois, before later being arrested....
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: jimbaker7773 on August 27, 2020, 12:25:31 PM
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

A few days later, a white 17-year old is permitted to mingle with protesters, open-carrying some sort of rifle, and police do nothing to stop him. He manages to shoot two or three people, some of whom are trying to stop him, others who identify him to the police as having shot people, yet the police let him go and he crosses the state line to go home to Illinois, before later being arrested....
Why should the police do something to stop a person who is not breaking any law and what were the people who got shot trying to stop him from doing?

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: ChrisTP on August 27, 2020, 12:31:14 PM
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

A few days later, a white 17-year old is permitted to mingle with protesters, open-carrying some sort of rifle, and police do nothing to stop him. He manages to shoot two or three people, some of whom are trying to stop him, others who identify him to the police as having shot people, yet the police let him go and he crosses the state line to go home to Illinois, before later being arrested....
Why should the police do something to stop a person who is not breaking any law and what were the people who got shot trying to stop him from doing?
The theme of this whole thread is that police seem to like stopping people who arent even breaking the law. And I would imagine the people who got shot were probably trying to stop him from shooting them..
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: jimbaker7773 on August 27, 2020, 12:43:14 PM
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

A few days later, a white 17-year old is permitted to mingle with protesters, open-carrying some sort of rifle, and police do nothing to stop him. He manages to shoot two or three people, some of whom are trying to stop him, others who identify him to the police as having shot people, yet the police let him go and he crosses the state line to go home to Illinois, before later being arrested....
Why should the police do something to stop a person who is not breaking any law and what were the people who got shot trying to stop him from doing?
The theme of this whole thread is that police seem to like stopping people who arent even breaking the law. And I would imagine the people who got shot were probably trying to stop him from shooting them..
Actually, the several instances brought up in this thread of police stopping people seem to be people who deserved to be stopped. George Floyd, seems he couldn't breath well before he was placed in the car. This latest guy in Kenosha had an active felony warrant for violence and was resisting police commands and trying to fight the police. How were these people trying to stop the guy from shooting them?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 27, 2020, 02:39:11 PM
Why should the police do something to stop a person who is not breaking any law and what were the people who got shot trying to stop him from doing?

Multiple bystanders shouted to police "he just shot someone"

That seems reasonable grounds to detain him, since he is open-carrying some kind of rifle. That would suggest to any reasonable officer that he had broke the law...

Some of the people who got shot were apparently trying to disarm him after the first person got shot.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 27, 2020, 03:21:04 PM
Why should the police do something to stop a person who is not breaking any law and what were the people who got shot trying to stop him from doing?

Multiple bystanders shouted to police "he just shot someone"

That seems reasonable grounds to detain him, since he is open-carrying some kind of rifle. That would suggest to any reasonable officer that he had broke the law...

Some of the people who got shot were apparently trying to disarm him after the first person got shot.

You assume the police didn't want protestors to be shot.  My guess is they waited until they had to stop him or lose their job.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rushy on August 27, 2020, 11:41:02 PM
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

A few days later, a white 17-year old is permitted to mingle with protesters, open-carrying some sort of rifle, and police do nothing to stop him. He manages to shoot two or three people, some of whom are trying to stop him, others who identify him to the police as having shot people, yet the police let him go and he crosses the state line to go home to Illinois, before later being arrested....

Videos from multiple angles show that he was being attacked by "protesters" and only shot the ones attempting to chase him down. Every video shows him attempting to flee long before actually shooting anyone, so it's a pretty clear cut case of self-defense. He attempted to flee and people chased him anyway, then he shot them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, don't chase a man carrying a rifle when he's trying to run off.

It's amazing how many people didn't watch the videos from three different angles of this entire ordeal. Trying to stream everything to social media ended up backfiring and just filming a man trying to run away and then people getting shot in the face as they deserved.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 27, 2020, 11:53:40 PM
Self defense laws permit homicide in that case?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rushy on August 27, 2020, 11:59:05 PM
Self defense laws permit homicide in that case?

Self defense laws typically require you exhaust other options (attempting to flee) and respond with reasonable force. Someone chasing after you after you've attempted to flee is a sure sign of aggression and you can't let them get near you, as that could result in harm. I think shooting a man actively trying to chase me down is a completely valid response. Whether or not a court agrees will be decided a year or more from now when everyone has forgotten this even happened.

Had the man not decided to shoot, we could be reading a headline about someone strangled to death rather than about people being shot. Or, possibly, we wouldn't hear about the incident at all. It's easy for another person to end your life in close range. I think it's hard to expect this man to see another man chasing after him and think "ah well I hope he doesn't kill me" and refuse to shoot him.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 28, 2020, 08:18:15 AM
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

A few days later, a white 17-year old is permitted to mingle with protesters, open-carrying some sort of rifle, and police do nothing to stop him. He manages to shoot two or three people, some of whom are trying to stop him, others who identify him to the police as having shot people, yet the police let him go and he crosses the state line to go home to Illinois, before later being arrested....

Videos from multiple angles show that he was being attacked by "protesters" and only shot the ones attempting to chase him down. Every video shows him attempting to flee long before actually shooting anyone, so it's a pretty clear cut case of self-defense. He attempted to flee and people chased him anyway, then he shot them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, don't chase a man carrying a rifle when he's trying to run off.

It's amazing how many people didn't watch the videos from three different angles of this entire ordeal. Trying to stream everything to social media ended up backfiring and just filming a man trying to run away and then people getting shot in the face as they deserved.

Yes.  He was being chased after killing someone.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 28, 2020, 08:55:28 AM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, don't chase a man carrying a rifle when he's trying to run off.

... before events even got that far;

Don't travel to a neighbouring state in an attempt to police activities over which you have no jurisdiction.

Don't take a weapon into a crowded scene in an attempt to give you authority over people who significantly outnumber you.

Any reasonable adult would conclude that his actions in this regard were reckless and provocative. He wasn't casually open-carrying, he took his weapon to the scene with intent. He could have gone there without it, but did not. (EDIT He could have taken a shield, goggles, other protective gear with which to defend himself, but he did not. He took an offensive weapon, and not much else. Further EDIT - it's a stretch to claim self-defence when you are the one with the offensive weapon, taking up a combative stance toward those who are unarmed...)

The reason he was running from protesters is either the protesters' response to his first shooting, or protesters not wanting to die from his recklessness, and seeking to disarm him.

Of course, events would not have got to this if the country had significant gun control laws ...

Also, the discussion would be moot if the officer involved with Jacob Blake had not shot him in the back seven times. All his fault. If only we could dock his wages and pension to pay for all the damage ....

EDIT - in a cruel twist of fate, it's reported that one of those killed by the armed 17-year old was a friend of Jacob Blake's ...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 28, 2020, 11:00:36 AM
Had the man not decided to shoot, we could be reading a headline about someone strangled to death rather than about people being shot.
No, we'd still be hearing about people being shot. The people who chased him had handguns, and fired "warning shots" before he returned fire.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-us-canada-53934109

Of course, Tumeni was too busy tumbling about and fabricating outrage to check the basic facts of this case - as evidenced by his claim that his pursuers were unarmed. :)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 28, 2020, 01:39:35 PM
No, we'd still be hearing about people being shot. The people who chased him had handguns, and fired "warning shots" before he returned fire.

None of which would have happened had he remained home. We know he was not resident in the state in which the protests took place.
None of which would have happened had he not taken his (illegally-carried) firearm to the protest.
None of which would have happened had he not acted as a self-appointed policeman. Nobody in any position of authority conferred any authority upon him to act as such. 
None of which would have happened if he had acted WITHIN THE LAW with regard to possession and carry of the firearm he used. From the article you quoted; "Under federal - as well as Illinois and Wisconsin state laws - no person under the age of 18 is allowed to own or open carry a gun.". He is 17 years old, and if the reports are correct, HIS MOTHER drove him to and from the protest, thereby making herself an accessory to both the offence of carrying the weapon, and to the murder of his victims. 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 28, 2020, 02:03:22 PM
All sides are in the wrong. He never should have gone. He never should have been chased by a handgun wielding mob.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: timterroo on August 28, 2020, 06:47:34 PM
All sides are in the wrong. He never should have gone. He never should have been chased by a handgun wielding mob.

Bringing a gun to any of these protests is just plain idiotic, and unequivocally foolish - the lack of cognition demonstrated by this country is really astonishing. You can't go into a setting like that yielding a weapon, and not expect something bad to happen.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 28, 2020, 06:58:13 PM
None of which would have happened had he remained home.
In civilised society, we call this "victim blaming".
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 28, 2020, 07:54:54 PM
None of which would have happened had he remained home.
In civilised society, we call this "victim blaming".

Not sure you can call the guy who actually killed someone a victim.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 28, 2020, 08:21:49 PM
None of which would have happened had he remained home.
In civilised society, we call this "victim blaming".

Not sure you can call the guy who actually killed someone a victim.

He was 17 and probably in way over his head. What the fuck was his mother doing driving him there? Why did he have access to a firearm? I can easily imagine a scenario where basically a child had delusions of grandeur and has no fucked their life for good. I feel for him. I feel for all the people who were shot by him too.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 28, 2020, 08:33:27 PM
Not sure you can call the guy who actually killed someone a victim.
He was the victim of an attack, it just so happens that he managed to fend his attackers off. He was also blatantly a victim of ridiculously poor upbringing.

Yes, it's a shame that he ended up killing some people, and it absolutely shouldn't have come to it - but it changes nothing about the fact that he was attacked.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 28, 2020, 09:06:58 PM
Not sure you can call the guy who actually killed someone a victim.
He was the victim of an attack, it just so happens that he managed to fend his attackers off. He was also blatantly a victim of ridiculously poor upbringing.

Yes, it's a shame that he ended up killing some people, and it absolutely shouldn't have come to it - but it changes nothing about the fact that he was attacked.

Wasn't he attacked AFTER he shot and killed someone?  What I read he shot someone (for some reason, I didn't see motive).  He paniced and ran.  Some armed citizens chased after him, he shot at them, hitting two before fleeing across state lines.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rushy on August 28, 2020, 09:29:02 PM
Not sure you can call the guy who actually killed someone a victim.
He was the victim of an attack, it just so happens that he managed to fend his attackers off. He was also blatantly a victim of ridiculously poor upbringing.

Yes, it's a shame that he ended up killing some people, and it absolutely shouldn't have come to it - but it changes nothing about the fact that he was attacked.

Wasn't he attacked AFTER he shot and killed someone?  What I read he shot someone (for some reason, I didn't see motive).  He paniced and ran.  Some armed citizens chased after him, he shot at them, hitting two before fleeing across state lines.

He shot someone chasing him down. After that, two more people began chasing after him, one assaulted him with a skateboard and the other pulled a handgun on him, both were shot as well. All in all, the 17 year old was attacked by three people and all three were shot by the 17 year old after attacking him. The 17 year old also tried to flee multiple times before firing, making it a pretty clear case of self defense. Had he stood his ground and not attempted to flee repeatedly, he'd probably be looking at a life sentence, but being on video trying to run away from all three attackers makes his case for self defense much more solid.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 28, 2020, 09:44:30 PM
You kept repeating “The 17 year old”. Do you think that’s relevant to the acts of the people who chased him?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 28, 2020, 10:56:14 PM
None of which would have happened had he remained home.
In civilised society, we call this "victim blaming".

In civilised society, we don't call someone who takes an illegally-held, offensive weapon into a large group of mainly unarmed people, and who succeeds in killing two and maiming another, the "victim".
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 28, 2020, 11:12:28 PM
None of which would have happened had he remained home.
In civilised society, we call this "victim blaming".

In civilised society, we don't call someone who takes an illegally-held, offensive weapon into a large group of mainly unarmed people, and who succeeds in killing two and maiming another, the "victim".

So you think the crowd knew he was underage? If they didn’t then, in their view there was no illegally held weapon and they harassed him because they weren’t comfortable with the situation despite, on their view, no law being broken.

Regardless, it seems he may not have initiated the conflict and that self defense is a plausible conclusion.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on August 29, 2020, 03:38:22 AM
This is a really good analysis of the Kyle Rittenhouse story posted today by a lawyer.

Based on this, I'd say the 17 yr old kid acted in self-defense, and was far more responsible than those who attacked him. It's a shame they were shot and died. They shouldn't have been the aggressors that they were: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSU9ZvnudFE

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 29, 2020, 08:18:34 AM
None of which would have happened had he remained home.
In civilised society, we call this "victim blaming".

In civilised society, we don't call someone who takes an illegally-held, offensive weapon into a large group of mainly unarmed people, and who succeeds in killing two and maiming another, the "victim".

So you think the crowd knew he was underage? If they didn’t then, in their view there was no illegally held weapon and they harassed him because they weren’t comfortable with the situation despite, on their view, no law being broken.

Regardless, it seems he may not have initiated the conflict and that self defense is a plausible conclusion.

I think the point stands without that

"In civilised society, we don't call someone who takes an offensive weapon into a large group of mainly unarmed people, and who succeeds in killing two and maiming another, the "victim"."

Especially when that person is unappointed to any position of authority, and is not of the local community.

You don't get to breeze in and brandish your firearm at the citizenry, then claim victimhood if the (largely unarmed) citizenry take you as the threat. He was not casually open-carrying his firearm, in a non-confrontational situation, he took it there with intent, to a situation he was untrained for and not appointed to.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 29, 2020, 08:41:55 AM
This is a really good analysis of the Kyle Rittenhouse story posted today by a lawyer.

Based on this, I'd say the 17 yr old kid acted in self-defense, and was far more responsible than those who attacked him. It's a shame they were shot and died. They shouldn't have been the aggressors that they were: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSU9ZvnudFE

I dunno.  I mean, if I saw some kid with a rifle, I'd assume he was gonna go Columbine on us and try to stop him.  Tho not chase him down.  I'd have shot him.  To protect lives. 

And on the OTHER side, if heard three shots, turned, saw a man with a gun over a dead man, I'd assume he was a bad guy and try to stop him.  Its the duty if a 2nd Amendment loving, gun carrying person to protect lives from agressive murderers.  Kyle looked like a god damn murderer. (Because technically he is)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 29, 2020, 11:40:25 AM
I think the point stands without that

"In civilised society, we don't call someone who takes an offensive weapon into a large group of mainly unarmed people, and who succeeds in killing two and maiming another, the "victim"."

Then live in another country because as much as I agree with you, in a large part of the USA, you are dead wrong. Your hyperbole ignores of course all the other people who also had weapons and brandished them at him.

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Especially when that person is unappointed to any position of authority, and is not of the local community.

Irrelevant. Freedom of movement and association are constitutional and plenty of people, who you are not condemning, were also carrying weapons.

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You don't get to breeze in and brandish your firearm at the citizenry, then claim victimhood if the (largely unarmed) citizenry take you as the threat. He was not casually open-carrying his firearm, in a non-confrontational situation, he took it there with intent, to a situation he was untrained for and not appointed to.

It appears he was shot at first. You keep ignoring that. It’s crucial to the assessment of the situation. As a thought exercise, I encourage you to apply the same judgement and hyperbole to the people who attacked him.

I dunno.  I mean, if I saw some kid with a rifle, I'd assume he was gonna go Columbine on us and try to stop him.  Tho not chase him down.  I'd have shot him.  To protect lives. 

Killing someone you think may do something bad is murder and would be utterly indefensible as self-defense.

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And on the OTHER side, if heard three shots, turned, saw a man with a gun over a dead man, I'd assume he was a bad guy and try to stop him. 

That’s a snap judgement and I’m glad you weren’t there because it’s assessments like these that would only escalate a bad situation.

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Its the duty if a 2nd Amendment loving, gun carrying person to protect lives from agressive murderers.  Kyle looked like a god damn murderer. (Because technically he is)

Technically he isn’t a murderer because he hasn’t been convicted of murder and if he is acquitted on the grounds that it was self-defense, then he absolutely is not a murderer.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 29, 2020, 12:01:24 PM
mainly unarmed people
Hey, you're slowly getting there! Now you just need to get rid of the "mainly un", and throw in a little bit of "violent", and you might say something that resembles the actual situation you're describing. Still, a great improvement over your previous attempt!

In civilised society, we don't call someone who takes an illegally-held, offensive weapon into a large group of mainly unarmed people, and who succeeds in killing two and maiming another, the "victim".
So, in your mockery of civilisation, a victim of an attack is only a victim if they fail to defend themselves. Sheesh, I'd be scared to hear your views on how victims of other crimes should be blamed for their circumstances...

Pointing out that he carried a gun before he was attacked is really not far off from the "But what was she wearing?" line of defence. It's not a good look. You should reconsider.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: JSS on August 29, 2020, 12:40:18 PM
1. He was peacefully standing there when he was violently assaulted in an unprovoked attack and defended himself.

2. He was waving a gun around in a crowd and threatening them and they tried to disarm him in fear for their life.

Right now we don't know what really happened. It's going to likely be a mix of those two, somewhere in the messy middle. He's not 100% victim or 100% hero. Until more evidence turns up, we simply don't know exactly what went on.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on August 29, 2020, 04:00:48 PM
This is a really good analysis of the Kyle Rittenhouse story posted today by a lawyer.

Based on this, I'd say the 17 yr old kid acted in self-defense, and was far more responsible than those who attacked him. It's a shame they were shot and died. They shouldn't have been the aggressors that they were: 


I dunno.  I mean, if I saw some kid with a rifle, I'd assume he was gonna go Columbine on us and try to stop him.  Tho not chase him down.  I'd have shot him.  To protect lives. 

And on the OTHER side, if heard three shots, turned, saw a man with a gun over a dead man, I'd assume he was a bad guy and try to stop him.  Its the duty if a 2nd Amendment loving, gun carrying person to protect lives from agressive murderers.  Kyle looked like a god damn murderer. (Because technically he is)

Well, except that after he shot Rosenbaum (and the lawyer in the video gave a pretty clear explanation that the fact that HE was running away makes him NOT the aggressor in that moment), the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?  So.....doesn't seem at all like it should have been interpreted by the mob as "going Columbine."  He doesn't run away from them until someone yells "get him."  Re-watch the video, perhaps?


 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 29, 2020, 04:13:54 PM
... the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?

He was seen with a phone to his ear. Have you heard a record of such a call, or a confirmation he actually got through to 911?

Also, having killed two, and maimed one other, if he REALLY wanted to tell the police, why did he get back in his mother's car, go home to the neighbouring state, and still not turn himself in? Why didn't he remain in the vicinity? Why didn't he/they look for a police station in the city?

What kind of monster are we dealing with here?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 29, 2020, 04:49:55 PM
... the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?

He was seen with a phone to his ear. Have you heard a record of such a call, or a confirmation he actually got through to 911?

Also, having killed two, and maimed one other, if he REALLY wanted to tell the police, why did he get back in his mother's car, go home to the neighbouring state, and still not turn himself in? Why didn't he remain in the vicinity? Why didn't he/they look for a police station in the city?

What kind of monster are we dealing with here?

Ok you are making the level of rhetorical, propagandize arguments I expect from Tom now. When people are in crisis and potentially panicking they make choices that seem correct at the time but that from the safety of your keyboard aren’t wholly logical. If you aren’t willing to entertain his mindset at all then you will never buy any argument however plausible defending his actions. Plainly, your bias again him is too strong And you aren’t interested in getting away from it.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 29, 2020, 05:38:10 PM
the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?
I can't say I've heard anything like that before. Do you have a source claiming he called 911?

What kind of monster are we dealing with here?
The kind of monster who just went through what will most likely be the most traumatic experience of his entire life - the kind of monster who might not be thinking rationally given the circumstances.

Christ, Tumeni, you're getting more and more victim blamey with every post. This is a horrible, dehumanising take, and you're only pursuing it because you want to feel comfortable in your convictions.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 29, 2020, 06:34:04 PM
If he has been spending time on Reddit discussing this, I wouldn't be surprised.  Some commenters over there are saying that you can't claim self-defense if you insult someone and they attack you as a result.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on August 29, 2020, 06:36:39 PM
the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?
I can't say I've heard anything like that before. Do you have a source claiming he called 911?


Hmm, maybe I got that wrong. Just rewatched the middle of the video.  Starting at about 7:45 the guy says "after he shoots the guy, he stays by the guy and makes a phone call saying he just killed someone."  So, yeah, I misremembered or just assumed it was to 911.  Could have been to anyone.  I think the substance of my point still stands, though - he shot someone, but then remained there and made a phone call. Not exactly "Columbine" style. Immediately after this, someone yells to get him and he's on the run again, and once more, not the aggressor.

Frankly, I'm impressed by the kid's temperance during all of this. The lawyer in the video even specifically points out later that the kid didn't randomly shoot into the air (or a crowd) after he had fallen, but very directly at the few who were immediately attacking his person.  That's some hard core nerves of steel in my view.

Like I said in my initial post - it's a shame they were killed - but based on this lawyer's video it's very very difficult for me to think he "murdered" anyone.  He killed some men in self-defense. That's not homicide. 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on August 29, 2020, 06:45:29 PM
... the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?

He was seen with a phone to his ear. Have you heard a record of such a call, or a confirmation he actually got through to 911?

Also, having killed two, and maimed one other, if he REALLY wanted to tell the police, why did he get back in his mother's car, go home to the neighbouring state, and still not turn himself in? Why didn't he remain in the vicinity? Why didn't he/they look for a police station in the city?

What kind of monster are we dealing with here?

Yeah, like I responded  to Pete, I assumed or misremembered.  But he did stop and make a phone call to someone.  Not the actions of a "shooter" in any relevant way.  Mass shooters and gunmen do not act as he did immediately after that altercation.  So, even a person who did NOT see Rosenbaum chase him, or even see anything at all of the situation until after Rosenbaum was already shot shouldn't immediately think "let's attack, maim, injure or kill this kid" which is what several people immediately proceeded to do. It got some of them killed. They were thinking too passionately in the moment, unfortunately for them.

There's another video of him walking, with hands raised, towards approaching police vehicles which apparently happened just after all of this. The police just go past him.  After that point, I don't know the full story, but if he simply went home, I'm not really sure what that "shows."  When he was arrested he didn't resist, did he?  He didn't go on the run, did he?  I think you're thinking waaaay too much into his actions right after an incredibly traumatic experience.  Shame on you, frankly.  I suppose you have to criticize his actions after the fact because you really really want him to be wrong in all of this?  I think the lawyer's video is pretty hard to rebut.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 29, 2020, 06:53:49 PM
I dunno.  I mean, if I saw some kid with a rifle, I'd assume he was gonna go Columbine on us and try to stop him.  Tho not chase him down.  I'd have shot him.  To protect lives. 

Killing someone you think may do something bad is murder and would be utterly indefensible as self-defense.
And yet, police do it all the time and get away with it.  Even so, its one of the arguments the gun supporters use: They can protect people and stop a shooter.    And if we all found out that Kyle had posted a bunch of stuff about murdering protesters, we'd all be calling those victims heroes for trying to stop him.  This is why normal people shouldn't have guns while all out and about, acting like police with no actual training.

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And on the OTHER side, if heard three shots, turned, saw a man with a gun over a dead man, I'd assume he was a bad guy and try to stop him. 

That’s a snap judgement and I’m glad you weren’t there because it’s assessments like these that would only escalate a bad situation.
Of course it would.  Yet again, the whole 2nd Amendment guys say that this is good.  That if someone is firing off their gun at someone unarmed, they're probably a bad guy.

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Its the duty if a 2nd Amendment loving, gun carrying person to protect lives from agressive murderers.  Kyle looked like a god damn murderer. (Because technically he is)

Technically he isn’t a murderer because he hasn’t been convicted of murder and if he is acquitted on the grounds that it was self-defense, then he absolutely is not a murderer.
You are correct.  I was wrong on the defintion of Murder.  I assumed it was just any death attributed to a non-accident or negligence.


But like, Kyle probably had good intentions but thought "These people are crazy and violent so I better look like I can kill them so they don't mess with me."
And from the video, the first victim was an agressor and did ask for it.  "What are you gonna do, shoot me?"  To which Kyle probably said something like "If I have to, yeah."  But thats speculation.  Point is, Kyle probalby wouldn't have been harassed if he didn't have a big gun strapped to his shoulder.

And the other two were just responding to a shooter.  Something that, if the kid was black, the cops would have shot him dead in an instant.  And this is literally why the whole thing is happening: Because a 17 year old white kid with a gun gets cheers from cops while any unarmed black man (or even lightly armed) is gunned down or arrested.  Sometimes both. 

If we want to see racism in the police force: we can look no further than this example.





... the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?

He was seen with a phone to his ear. Have you heard a record of such a call, or a confirmation he actually got through to 911?

Also, having killed two, and maimed one other, if he REALLY wanted to tell the police, why did he get back in his mother's car, go home to the neighbouring state, and still not turn himself in? Why didn't he remain in the vicinity? Why didn't he/they look for a police station in the city?

What kind of monster are we dealing with here?

I'm gonna join in with Pete and Existoid here.  This kid probably called his mom because he just killed someone and paniced like crazy.  He looked brave, acted brave, but when his life was actually threatened, he ran scared.  Which is fine and normal.  And his mom was likely the first person he talked to because, lets face it, when you are in panic you don't think rationally.  So I'm not faulting him for running scared or calling whoever.  He's 17 with no real experience and just jumped into what was basically a powder keg of agression.  Arrogant and not smart.  And now his life is ruined.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 29, 2020, 07:19:15 PM
All of the video evidence makes it pretty difficult to paint this kid as the instigator or as doing anything other than defending himself. He was also seen giving first aid to people earlier in the evening.

None of this is a show of support for demonstrably wrong behavior on the part of police and you trying to rationalize it in that way is a sure sign that you aren’t thinking clearly about this. It’s tragic there is injustice but that doesn’t mean you should demonize a 17 year old, especially when it seems likely his biggest offense was the misdemeanor of possessing a firearm illegally.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 29, 2020, 08:15:33 PM
All of the video evidence makes it pretty difficult to paint this kid as the instigator or as doing anything other than defending himself. He was also seen giving first aid to people earlier in the evening.

None of this is a show of support for demonstrably wrong behavior on the part of police and you trying to rationalize it in that way is a sure sign that you aren’t thinking clearly about this. It’s tragic there is injustice but that doesn’t mean you should demonize a 17 year old, especially when it seems likely his biggest offense was the misdemeanor of possessing a firearm illegally.
The police literally cheered that he was there.  Doing their job.  That's a pretty fucked up thing.

Also: Guns are threatening.  Just standing there, with an AR-15 visible, is intimidating as hell.  Especially from someone who isn't wearing any kind of uniform.  I'm sure he had good intentions but he was dumb as fuck. 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 29, 2020, 08:26:05 PM
The police literally cheered that he was there.  Doing their job.  That's a pretty fucked up thing.

Also: Guns are threatening.  Just standing there, with an AR-15 visible, is intimidating as hell.  Especially from someone who isn't wearing any kind of uniform.  I'm sure he had good intentions but he was dumb as fuck.

No one is saying he wasn't but you must appreciate how big a distance lies between being "dumb as fuck" and "being a monster who deserves to be shot" is?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 30, 2020, 04:43:42 AM
The police literally cheered that he was there.  Doing their job.  That's a pretty fucked up thing.

Also: Guns are threatening.  Just standing there, with an AR-15 visible, is intimidating as hell.  Especially from someone who isn't wearing any kind of uniform.  I'm sure he had good intentions but he was dumb as fuck.

No one is saying he wasn't but you must appreciate how big a distance lies between being "dumb as fuck" and "being a monster who deserves to be shot" is?

Its not as big a gap as you'd think. 

Even so, I never called him a monster, just stating how I'd have shot him.  If I had a gun.  Which I never will because I'd end up shooting someome.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 30, 2020, 12:30:44 PM
Dave it’s a giant gap. I meet dumbasses everyday and can honestly never wanted to shoot any of them.

No you didn’t call him a monster, Tumeni did but you are dehumanizing him to the same degree by treating his life like toilet paper because you are mad at police.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on August 31, 2020, 05:23:31 PM
New video from the same lawyer, mostly not about Kyle specifically, just the Kenosha riots, but at about 3:30 it shows (I think) Kyle Rittenhouse putting out a fire in a dumpster:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75uwKcD3dv4

Shortly after it seems Rosenbaum gets in Kyle's face (this is a new angle from the earlier released footage of Rosenbaum yelling at Kyle and others).  Seems that Rosenbaum was super duper pissed that Kyle dared put out a fire in a dumpster.

Obviously even more footage could be forthcoming changing our perceptions of Kyle, Rosenbaum and others in this whole event.  But this second video makes me feel like Kyle's the type of person I'd want to be my neighbor.  He went to a dangerous place to help protect people and private property (look at the insanity of smashing cars and burning a business down). He brought a medikit.  And (apparently) when he actually tried to put out a dumpster fire Rosenbaum got all up in his face.

I wonder how much time lapsed between this altercation at the gas station with all the crowds and when Rosenbaum is chasing Kyle, throwing something and cornering him (per the first video I shared).  A few minutes?  An hour?  Did Rosenbaum follow and harass Kyle for a while, until he eventually was actually chasing Kyle, alone?   

One can argue Kyle was foolish to bother going to Kenosha where it's dangerous.  But one can also argue it was brave and heroic - people and businesses were being attacked, and the police were apparently not doing anything.

It's often argued that the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to individuals, but rather "militia" as a group.  Well, if there's ever a need for militia in certain places, it seems in Kenosha recently there was.  Of course, I don't expect all of those in the US who believe the 2nd amendment to apply only to "militias" to be consistent on this, because I do believe those who oppose the 2nd amendment in that way actually oppose it completely.

I'm strongly in favor of 2A, given that my home in Garland TX was burglarized twice - both during the day time when no one was home, as it happens.  I don't live in TX anymore, but I have weapons to defend myself just in case. Though admittedly, I'd probably be too cowardly to go to Kenosha, if I lived within 30 min, to go defend others.  Fortunately, there have been no riots within several hundred miles of the city I currently live in.   :P







Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: TomInAustin on August 31, 2020, 06:27:31 PM


I cite the two officers who pursued a suspect through a residential neighbourhood, one firing a rifle from the passenger seat at the moving vehicle in front, and with the driver driving one-handed, discharging his pistol THROUGH HIS OWN WINDSCREEN

I saw that video, those 2 should be in prison.  How many of those wild ass shots hit homes or other cars?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on August 31, 2020, 06:29:33 PM


I cite the two officers who pursued a suspect through a residential neighbourhood, one firing a rifle from the passenger seat at the moving vehicle in front, and with the driver driving one-handed, discharging his pistol THROUGH HIS OWN WINDSCREEN

I saw that video, those 2 should be in prison.  How many of those wild ass shots hit homes or other cars?

Crazy!!  Link please?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on August 31, 2020, 06:40:17 PM


I cite the two officers who pursued a suspect through a residential neighbourhood, one firing a rifle from the passenger seat at the moving vehicle in front, and with the driver driving one-handed, discharging his pistol THROUGH HIS OWN WINDSCREEN

I saw that video, those 2 should be in prison.  How many of those wild ass shots hit homes or other cars?

Crazy!!  Link please?

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-anaheim-police-dramatic-video-investigation-shooting-driving-20190508-story.html
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on August 31, 2020, 06:49:06 PM


I cite the two officers who pursued a suspect through a residential neighbourhood, one firing a rifle from the passenger seat at the moving vehicle in front, and with the driver driving one-handed, discharging his pistol THROUGH HIS OWN WINDSCREEN

I saw that video, those 2 should be in prison.  How many of those wild ass shots hit homes or other cars?

Crazy!!  Link please?

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-anaheim-police-dramatic-video-investigation-shooting-driving-20190508-story.html

Yeah, that's very crazy - the officers shooting during a high speed chase is highly problematic.  One of the two was fired, I guess not the other one...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 31, 2020, 07:10:35 PM
Dave it’s a giant gap. I meet dumbasses everyday and can honestly never wanted to shoot any of them.

No you didn’t call him a monster, Tumeni did but you are dehumanizing him to the same degree by treating his life like toilet paper because you are mad at police.
No its not.

Here's a perfectly fine leap.

"Yeah.  I'm here with my rifle and my med kit.  You know, trying to protect folks.  Help the law enforcement.  Make sure those liberal bastards get what's comming to em if they step outta line."

Now, that didn't happen but its certainly not outside the realm of possibilities.   A dumbass is someone who goes to a dangerous, volitile situation with a lot of people without any training on how to handle it but carrying a gun for protection.  That there is a dumbass.  Now sprinkle in some "I hate X and thats why I'm out here." and ya got someone worse than a dumbass.  Again, not a big gap.

And I am not dehumanizing him.  If anything, he's VERY human.  A prime candidate for how teenage humans behave.


However, the more I learn about it, the more I see that he was likely provoked and shot in self defense.  Whether it was because he tried to put out a dumpster fire that Joseph started or because he looked like a crazy gun nut who was gonna kill everyone so he needed to be disarmed, I dunno.  But it happened and he killed someone and he ran because he had 0 authority on his side.  He ran from the angry mob who saw him kill someone.  And that angry group chasing him was 100% justified in chasing him.  Because if ya shoot someone and you aren't wearing a uniform, odds are you're a murderer so best to stop you from killing again.

(Yes, Kyle may not be a murderer.  But thats besides the point.  Bad guys with guns, man.)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on August 31, 2020, 07:57:10 PM

...But it happened and he killed someone and he ran because he had 0 authority on his side.  He ran from the angry mob who saw him kill someone.  And that angry group chasing him was 100% justified in chasing him.  Because if ya shoot someone and you aren't wearing a uniform, odds are you're a murderer so best to stop you from killing again.

(Yes, Kyle may not be a murderer.  But thats besides the point.  Bad guys with guns, man.)

Yeah, based on the currently available facts this seems incredibly wrong to me.

The mob was not at all "100%" justified in chasing him.

First, let's start with the assumption that the lawyer in the video is correct and we're all in agreement with this quote (at about 7:01 in the video) -

"I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that if someone is chasing you and throwing objects at you, and then when you're cornered by them tries to take your gun away from you, at best you're at great risk of bodily injury and at worst, risk of death." And then he goes on to explain that the dynamics of self-defense and who the "aggressor" is in a situation can change moment to moment. Rosenbaum was clearly the aggressor at the moment that he was shot by Kyle.

Just before this quote in the video, the lawyer goes over the court documents that explain that this is exactly what happened. In that moment, doesn't matter why Kyle went to Kenosha. Doesn't matter what transpired before Rosenbaum chased him. In that moment, it was self-defense against what Kyle could rationally perceive as great bodily harm or death against him.

Okay, so, starting with THAT, let's posit three possibilities regarding the person in the mob who shouted "get that MFer" and the others who began chasing Kyle and subsequently attacked him, including one with a handgun:

1. They did NOT see enough of the full altercation between Kyle and Rosenbaum to know whether it appeared to be self-defense to a reasonable onlooker. How can you possibly justify chasing him if you don't know whether the gun shot was self-defense or not?

2. They DID see the full altercation, but were not reasonable enough to see that it looked like self-defense (because of tensions, adrenaline, preconceived notions, or they were just plain irrational, doesn't matter).

3. They DID see the full altercation, recognized it looked like self-defense, but they themselves were violent and murderous criminals who wanted to attack Kyle anyway.

Which of these three possibilities justified them in violently attacking him? 

Is it #1?  Are you suggesting that any time someone is shot we should ALWAYS assume it's NOT self-defense?  Numbers from the CDC itself (Centers for Disease Control), in a study commissioned by President Obama in 2013, it states "almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses [of self-defense with a gun] ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year."  [emphasis added].
Source: https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent (https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent)

The crowd is not at all justified if they merely ASSUME Kyle is the aggressor because he's the one who shot the gun. Possibility #1 can be discarded as providing justification.

And #2 and #3 self-evidently don't provide justification.

I would say, however, that if it's #2, I would ALSO think they should not be found guilty of very much.  A lot of things can happen in the heat of the moment.  For example, if these guys who attacked Kyle in the street were to kill Kyle, I can see them getting avoiding a strict homicide charge because of their frame of mind and other mitigating elements.

EDIT:
If it's #1 or #3, I believe they should be punished to the fullest extent of battery and possibly attempted murder - though some were already killed, so...






Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on August 31, 2020, 08:04:04 PM
Dave you said you would have shot him without even having all the evidence, which now that you have considered the evidence you realize that you may have been wrong. It’s terrible that you jumped to that conclusion and treated him as a person who deserved summary judgement.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 31, 2020, 09:07:18 PM

...But it happened and he killed someone and he ran because he had 0 authority on his side.  He ran from the angry mob who saw him kill someone.  And that angry group chasing him was 100% justified in chasing him.  Because if ya shoot someone and you aren't wearing a uniform, odds are you're a murderer so best to stop you from killing again.

(Yes, Kyle may not be a murderer.  But thats besides the point.  Bad guys with guns, man.)

Yeah, based on the currently available facts this seems incredibly wrong to me.

The mob was not at all "100%" justified in chasing him.

First, let's start with the assumption that the lawyer in the video is correct and we're all in agreement with this quote (at about 7:01 in the video) -

"I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that if someone is chasing you and throwing objects at you, and then when you're cornered by them tries to take your gun away from you, at best you're at great risk of bodily injury and at worst, risk of death." And then he goes on to explain that the dynamics of self-defense and who the "aggressor" is in a situation can change moment to moment. Rosenbaum was clearly the aggressor at the moment that he was shot by Kyle.

Just before this quote in the video, the lawyer goes over the court documents that explain that this is exactly what happened. In that moment, doesn't matter why Kyle went to Kenosha. Doesn't matter what transpired before Rosenbaum chased him. In that moment, it was self-defense against what Kyle could rationally perceive as great bodily harm or death against him.

Okay, so, starting with THAT, let's posit three possibilities regarding the person in the mob who shouted "get that MFer" and the others who began chasing Kyle and subsequently attacked him, including one with a handgun:

1. They did NOT see enough of the full altercation between Kyle and Rosenbaum to know whether it appeared to be self-defense to a reasonable onlooker. How can you possibly justify chasing him if you don't know whether the gun shot was self-defense or not?

2. They DID see the full altercation, but were not reasonable enough to see that it looked like self-defense (because of tensions, adrenaline, preconceived notions, or they were just plain irrational, doesn't matter).

3. They DID see the full altercation, recognized it looked like self-defense, but they themselves were violent and murderous criminals who wanted to attack Kyle anyway.

Which of these three possibilities justified them in violently attacking him? 

Is it #1?  Are you suggesting that any time someone is shot we should ALWAYS assume it's NOT self-defense?  Numbers from the CDC itself (Centers for Disease Control), in a study commissioned by President Obama in 2013, it states "almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses [of self-defense with a gun] ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year."  [emphasis added].
Source: https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent (https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent)

The crowd is not at all justified if they merely ASSUME Kyle is the aggressor because he's the one who shot the gun. Possibility #1 can be discarded as providing justification.

And #2 and #3 self-evidently don't provide justification.

I would say, however, that if it's #2, I would ALSO think they should not be found guilty of very much.  A lot of things can happen in the heat of the moment.  For example, if these guys who attacked Kyle in the street were to kill Kyle, I can see them getting avoiding a strict homicide charge because of their frame of mind and other mitigating elements.

EDIT:
If it's #1 or #3, I believe they should be punished to the fullest extent of battery and possibly attempted murder - though some were already killed, so...

Its #1.
Because most people who shoot someone who didn''t shoot first, are not good people.  And do you want to let a bad guy with a gun escape?  I think not. 


Dave you said you would have shot him without even having all the evidence, which now that you have considered the evidence you realize that you may have been wrong. It’s terrible that you jumped to that conclusion and treated him as a person who deserved summary judgement.
Having all the facts wouldn't change my fact-less actions.  Sorry but if I see someone unarmed get shot, I'm gonna assume the shooter is a bad guy.  Most people with guns do.  Hell, the police manual basically states that everyone is a potential, deadly threat.  So I'm not alone.

This is why I'm against gun ownership: because there are more people like me than not.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on August 31, 2020, 09:30:01 PM

Its #1.
Because most people who shoot someone who didn''t shoot first, are not good people.  And do you want to let a bad guy with a gun escape?  I think not. 


Dave you said you would have shot him without even having all the evidence, which now that you have considered the evidence you realize that you may have been wrong. It’s terrible that you jumped to that conclusion and treated him as a person who deserved summary judgement.
Having all the facts wouldn't change my fact-less actions.  Sorry but if I see someone unarmed get shot, I'm gonna assume the shooter is a bad guy.  Most people with guns do.  Hell, the police manual basically states that everyone is a potential, deadly threat.  So I'm not alone.

This is why I'm against gun ownership: because there are more people like me than not.

That's really your perspective?

If a person shoots another person, and you know you do not have the facts because you don't see the event itself, you believe the "right" thing, and the "justifiable" thing is to immediately and violently attack the person holding the gun?   

That's a seriously messed up mindset.  Attack first, ask questions later, I guess.

EDIT:
Let me add, that it doesn't at all seem like they were being good citizens and "ensuring he didn't escape."  He was NOT running away, but talking on the phone, standing by Rosenbaum.  He didn't run away until someone yelled "get that MFer" and then several men chased and attacked him.

There are ALL sorts of appropriate responses they could have used, instead of to attack him. Since one of them had a handgun, they could have at the minimum, trained it on him and told Kyle to drop his rifle until the police showed up.  They didn't do that or anything similar to it. They attacked him violently.  Why do you keep defending these obviously violent criminals?



Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: TomInAustin on August 31, 2020, 09:36:30 PM

Its #1.
Because most people who shoot someone who didn''t shoot first, are not good people.  And do you want to let a bad guy with a gun escape?  I think not. 


Dave you said you would have shot him without even having all the evidence, which now that you have considered the evidence you realize that you may have been wrong. It’s terrible that you jumped to that conclusion and treated him as a person who deserved summary judgement.
Having all the facts wouldn't change my fact-less actions.  Sorry but if I see someone unarmed get shot, I'm gonna assume the shooter is a bad guy.  Most people with guns do.  Hell, the police manual basically states that everyone is a potential, deadly threat.  So I'm not alone.

This is why I'm against gun ownership: because there are more people like me than not.

That's really your perspective?

If a person shoots another person, and you know you do not have the facts because you don't see the event itself, you believe the "right" thing, and the "justifiable" thing is to immediately and violently attack the person holding the gun?   

That's a seriously messed up mindset.  Attack first, ask questions later, I guess.

EDIT:
Let me add, that it doesn't at all seem like they were being good citizens and "ensuring he didn't escape."  He was NOT running away, but talking on the phone, standing by Rosenbaum.  He didn't run away until someone yelled "get that MFer" and then several men chased and attacked him.

There are ALL sorts of appropriate responses they could have used, instead of to attack him. Since one of them had a handgun, they could have at the minimum, trained it on him and told Kyle to drop his rifle until the police showed up.  They didn't do that or anything similar to it. They attacked him violently.  Why do you keep defending these obviously violent criminals?

Sounds like its best that Dave is anti gun and doesn't get one
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: existoid on August 31, 2020, 09:51:29 PM

Its #1.
Because most people who shoot someone who didn''t shoot first, are not good people.  And do you want to let a bad guy with a gun escape?  I think not. 


Dave you said you would have shot him without even having all the evidence, which now that you have considered the evidence you realize that you may have been wrong. It’s terrible that you jumped to that conclusion and treated him as a person who deserved summary judgement.
Having all the facts wouldn't change my fact-less actions.  Sorry but if I see someone unarmed get shot, I'm gonna assume the shooter is a bad guy.  Most people with guns do.  Hell, the police manual basically states that everyone is a potential, deadly threat.  So I'm not alone.

This is why I'm against gun ownership: because there are more people like me than not.

That's really your perspective?

If a person shoots another person, and you know you do not have the facts because you don't see the event itself, you believe the "right" thing, and the "justifiable" thing is to immediately and violently attack the person holding the gun?   

That's a seriously messed up mindset.  Attack first, ask questions later, I guess.

EDIT:
Let me add, that it doesn't at all seem like they were being good citizens and "ensuring he didn't escape."  He was NOT running away, but talking on the phone, standing by Rosenbaum.  He didn't run away until someone yelled "get that MFer" and then several men chased and attacked him.

There are ALL sorts of appropriate responses they could have used, instead of to attack him. Since one of them had a handgun, they could have at the minimum, trained it on him and told Kyle to drop his rifle until the police showed up.  They didn't do that or anything similar to it. They attacked him violently.  Why do you keep defending these obviously violent criminals?

Sounds like its best that Dave is anti gun and doesn't get one

No kidding.  I've been lucky to own guns for years but never been directly involved in any violent altercations (just had my home burgled when we weren't home).

Not to get into anecdotes too much, but here are two regarding the usefulness of concealed weapons for lawful self-defense:

My uncle (now deceased from cirrhosis), used to play guitar in a band all throughout the Northwest. He kept a concealed handgun (and had a permit for all the states they played in). It has prevented him from muggings behind bars his band played at at 2 or 3am.  The muggers may not have been armed, but if any were foolish enough to have attacked him without a gun and he shot them, you would say because they "didn't shoot first" - because they can't shoot if they don't have a gun - he's the bad guy in those situations?  You don't need a gun to kill someone. What if they had a knife?

What if Rosenbaum had had a knife when he was inches from Kyle after chasing him in between those cars?Did the guys who yelled "get that MFer" even check to see if Rosenbaum had a knife, and that's why Kyle shot first?  (I understand that there's absolutely no evidence Rosenbaum had a knife, I'm just saying that YOUR point that the "person who shoots a gun first" is automatically in the wrong is a super duper bad mindset, because anything could be going on).

Second anecdote:
I have a lawyer friend who studied law at Georgetown U. He never carried a weapon, and he was mugged by several men, on the street where he lived, walking back from classes in open daylight.  If he had had a weapon, perhaps he would not have gotten his laptop and expensive school books taken.

Obviously my two anecdotes are just that - anecdotes - and they are NOT in the context of a riot, either.  But I think they add to this discussion because the mere fact that if ONE person in an altercation has a gun, that THAT person is automatically "the bad guy" or the "aggressor."  Not in any way true. There are many possibilities.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on September 01, 2020, 09:45:52 AM

Its #1.
Because most people who shoot someone who didn''t shoot first, are not good people.  And do you want to let a bad guy with a gun escape?  I think not. 


Dave you said you would have shot him without even having all the evidence, which now that you have considered the evidence you realize that you may have been wrong. It’s terrible that you jumped to that conclusion and treated him as a person who deserved summary judgement.
Having all the facts wouldn't change my fact-less actions.  Sorry but if I see someone unarmed get shot, I'm gonna assume the shooter is a bad guy.  Most people with guns do.  Hell, the police manual basically states that everyone is a potential, deadly threat.  So I'm not alone.

This is why I'm against gun ownership: because there are more people like me than not.

That's really your perspective?

If a person shoots another person, and you know you do not have the facts because you don't see the event itself, you believe the "right" thing, and the "justifiable" thing is to immediately and violently attack the person holding the gun?   

That's a seriously messed up mindset.  Attack first, ask questions later, I guess.

EDIT:
Let me add, that it doesn't at all seem like they were being good citizens and "ensuring he didn't escape."  He was NOT running away, but talking on the phone, standing by Rosenbaum.  He didn't run away until someone yelled "get that MFer" and then several men chased and attacked him.

There are ALL sorts of appropriate responses they could have used, instead of to attack him. Since one of them had a handgun, they could have at the minimum, trained it on him and told Kyle to drop his rifle until the police showed up.  They didn't do that or anything similar to it. They attacked him violently.  Why do you keep defending these obviously violent criminals?

1. That is literally what police do.  This is the whole reason BLM exists!  The only real difference is that if cops were there, he might have been shot.  If Rittenhouse was black, they'd have shot him 20 times.  Watch police go after armed suspects in a homicide.  They are

2. If you honestly think you can be that calm after seeing a comrad get killed (justified or not) then you should become a cop.  Seriously!  Train to be an officer in a big city because that kind of calmness is exactly what we need in police officers.

3. You seem to think humans are robots.  They saw a comrad die.  I'd have chased him too.  Get that Mother Fucker is a very normal response.  Had he not ran, they probably would have pinned him, taken his gun, and beat the shit out of him until he was near dead.  Or maybe dead.  Hard to say.  All perfectly normal emotional response.  And again, if you can be calm in that, be a god damn cop.


4. There are MILLIONS of people who think like me but don't have the wisdom of knowing they'd use their gun poorly.  Some of them are cops.  Keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Toddler Thork on September 01, 2020, 11:11:08 AM
after seeing a comrad get killed ... They saw a comrad die. 

1) It is spelt comrade.
2) How left wing do you need to be when you start using the word comrade when you mean colleague?

Check yourself, you vile communist.  >o<
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on September 02, 2020, 09:58:53 AM
You kept repeating “The 17 year old”. Do you think that’s relevant to the acts of the people who chased him?

I think it's relevant to the cops who spoke with him on multiple occasions and never questioned the legality of his openly carrying a loaded rifle in an area of unrest. It's definitely a debatable point that he acted in self-defense given the footage on the tape, but if the police had done their jobs, rather than actively encouraging him, we wouldn't be talking about two people being dead and one wounded and whether or not it was self-defense. They are really the ones to blame for this. So whatever the case the incident undoubtedly rates as another example of the American police being out of control.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 02, 2020, 11:33:22 AM
I think it's relevant to the cops who spoke with him on multiple occasions and never questioned the legality of his openly carrying a loaded rifle in an area of unrest.
Is it common/expected of American cops to ID people carrying weapons in the middle of a protest (or in any other scenario)? Not trying to call it right or wrong, just curious if it you'd expect it had it not been for hindsight.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Roundy on September 02, 2020, 01:41:07 PM
I think it's relevant to the cops who spoke with him on multiple occasions and never questioned the legality of his openly carrying a loaded rifle in an area of unrest.
Is it common/expected of American cops to ID people carrying weapons in the middle of a protest (or in any other scenario)? Not trying to call it right or wrong, just curious if it you'd expect it had it not been for hindsight.

I don't know if it's common or not, and I'm not saying everybody carrying a weapon should necessarily be ID'd. BUT, we take selling cigarettes to minors very seriously in this country; if you don't look like you're 30 years old, you're carded. I think this is a somewhat more serious situation. If it's not standard practice to make sure someone who looks like he could be a minor is allowed to be carrying his weapon it damn well should be.

Again, the kid is stated to have conversed with the cops on multiple occasions. It would have been nothing for one of them to say, "Oh, yeah, got some ID?"

And honestly the fact that there was rioting is irrelevant. This should be standard practice in this country period.

And in a country where it's honestly argued that racial profiling is good because it lowers crime... is it too much to ask that a white guy openly carrying a loaded gun get the same treatment?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on September 02, 2020, 04:39:52 PM
I think it's relevant to the cops who spoke with him on multiple occasions and never questioned the legality of his openly carrying a loaded rifle in an area of unrest.
Is it common/expected of American cops to ID people carrying weapons in the middle of a protest (or in any other scenario)? Not trying to call it right or wrong, just curious if it you'd expect it had it not been for hindsight.

Only if they are black.
And by ID, I mean after they are arrested or shot.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 04, 2020, 05:27:36 PM
Black USA citizen's car is hit, while driving, by another car. Police determine his car has to be towed away, but his documentation, ID, everything he would need to retrieve his car from the police pound, as well as his shoes, are all still in the car. The police refuse him access to the car to get them back, despite his protests, so he has to leave his car to them, and walk away.

Apparently, while walking away from the scene, one of the officers climbed into his car, and ran this man down as he crossed the street ...

https://medium.com/@lessig/arguing-while-black-86049ac5fd44
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on September 04, 2020, 08:30:50 PM
Black USA citizen's car is hit, while driving, by another car. Police determine his car has to be towed away, but his documentation, ID, everything he would need to retrieve his car from the police pound, as well as his shoes, are all still in the car. The police refuse him access to the car to get them back, despite his protests, so he has to leave his car to them, and walk away.

Apparently, while walking away from the scene, one of the officers climbed into his car, and ran this man down as he crossed the street ...

https://medium.com/@lessig/arguing-while-black-86049ac5fd44

It could all be fake but I'd believe it. 
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rushy on September 05, 2020, 02:10:47 PM
Only if they are black.
And by ID, I mean after they are arrested or shot.

I'm sure Dave is drawing his conclusions from his enormous experience of living in impoverished areas of America and definitely not shouting down from an ivory tower, a tower that isn't even in the US.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on September 05, 2020, 05:54:29 PM
Only if they are black.
And by ID, I mean after they are arrested or shot.

I'm sure Dave is drawing his conclusions from his enormous experience of living in impoverished areas of America and definitely not shouting down from an ivory tower, a tower that isn't even in the US.

Its not Ivory, its wood.

And yes, you are correct, I haven't lived in impoverished areas.  Near, yes, but not in.  And being white, I never had to deal with cops who see me as a threat.

But one does not need to experience it to know it happens.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 06, 2020, 08:15:25 AM
I'm sure Dave is drawing his conclusions from his enormous experience of living in impoverished areas of America and definitely not shouting down from an ivory tower, a tower that isn't even in the US.

Does the tree only fall in the forest when you personally see it fall?

If the lumberjack team returns from the day's work, to announce they felled a dozen that day, do you wander into the forest to check, just in case?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 06, 2020, 10:59:55 AM
If the lumberjack team returns from the day's work, to announce they felled a dozen that day, do you wander into the forest to check, just in case?
If the lumberjacks came back announcing that the trees have become sapient and that an army of angry ents is now marching towards our village, I'd probably be mildly skeptical of the claim.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 07, 2020, 05:38:27 PM
Greenville County, SC around 45 days ago.

At least seven police pursue a man wanted for minor traffic offences. Body cam footage shows a group of them jumping out of a van, with the victim running away from the rear of the vehicle. Around three seconds later, five of the seven officers have opened fire on him, and he collapses on the roadway.

https://eu.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/local/south-carolina/2020/08/25/greenville-county-sheriffs-office-releases-details-deputy-involved-shooting/5615187002/

Looks like some defunding could easily be sustained by that police dept.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 07, 2020, 05:51:09 PM
Reports from Portland that police are heavily teargassing residential streets, and when the non-protesting residents appear out of their homes to bemoan the fact that even in their own homes, they cannot escape it, the police are beating the sh*t out of them.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rushy on September 08, 2020, 01:12:56 AM
I'm sure Dave is drawing his conclusions from his enormous experience of living in impoverished areas of America and definitely not shouting down from an ivory tower, a tower that isn't even in the US.

Does the tree only fall in the forest when you personally see it fall?

If the lumberjack team returns from the day's work, to announce they felled a dozen that day, do you wander into the forest to check, just in case?

If Dave told you he cut down a dozen trees in a single day, would you believe him?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on September 08, 2020, 05:17:25 AM
I'm sure Dave is drawing his conclusions from his enormous experience of living in impoverished areas of America and definitely not shouting down from an ivory tower, a tower that isn't even in the US.

Does the tree only fall in the forest when you personally see it fall?

If the lumberjack team returns from the day's work, to announce they felled a dozen that day, do you wander into the forest to check, just in case?

If Dave told you he cut down a dozen trees in a single day, would you believe him?
If I was a Luberjack instead of an IT guy, would it change the answer?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 08, 2020, 03:14:37 PM
If Dave told you he cut down a dozen trees in a single day, would you believe him?

Yes, unless I have cause to disbelieve him.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on September 08, 2020, 09:58:29 PM
If Dave told you he cut down a dozen trees in a single day, would you believe him?

Yes, unless I have cause to disbelieve him.

I cut down 11 trees in a single day.  3 years ago.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on September 08, 2020, 11:25:47 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/08/linden-cameron-police-shooting-boy-autism-utah

Quote
A 13-year-old boy with autism was shot several times by police officers who responded to his home in Salt Lake City after his mother called for help.

Golda Barton told KUTV she called 911 to request a crisis intervention team because her son, who has Asperger’s syndrome, was having an episode caused by “bad separation anxiety” as his mother went to work for the first time in more than a year.

“I said, ‘He’s unarmed, he doesn’t have anything, he just gets mad and he starts yelling and screaming,’” she said. “He’s a kid, he’s trying to get attention, he doesn’t know how to regulate.”

Are the police out of control?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 10, 2020, 04:19:46 PM
Petty racially-motivated harassment.

https://www.thearknewspaper.com/single-post/2020/08/27/Tiburon-releases-body-cam-footage-of-police-questioning-Black-merchant#click=https://t.co/Pq9dVOQSVV

Ended without escalation this time, but ...
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 10, 2020, 04:38:51 PM
Raleigh detective of 11 years suspended pending investigation of him framing up to 15 (fifteen) people on drugs charges with false evidence ...

https://abc11.com/amp/omar-abdullah-kimberly-muktarian-raleigh-police-department/6416588/?__twitter_impression=true
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 12, 2020, 07:27:28 PM
Clayton County, GA

POlice pull over a Lyft driver for a minor traffic matter. They ask passengers for ID, and when passengers protest that they shouldn't be ID'd for the driver's indiscretion, the police beat one of the passengers to within an inch of his life... one suspended at the moment, Internal Affairs called in before 8am...

https://www.tmz.com/2020/09/12/georgia-cops-beat-smother-black-lyft-passenger-who-did-not-show-id/
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 12, 2020, 07:43:25 PM
NYPD aggressively attacks funeral vigil for a cyclist who was killed in a collision with bus in the city.

Apparently NYPD wouldn't let the folks leave when they wanted to, then attacked them for not leaving....


https://champ.gothamist.com/champ/gothamist/news/nypd-aggressively-disrupts-peaceful-vigil-brooklyn-cyclist-fatally-struck-bus-driver?__twitter_impression=true
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 16, 2020, 10:07:54 AM
On the death of Daniel Prude;

"City records show how officials sought to frame the narrative around Daniel Prude’s death in the hours and days after his encounter with the police."

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/09/15/nyregion/15rochester-document-2/15rochester-document-2-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp)
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 25, 2020, 04:35:11 PM
"... a 39-year-old criminal defense and First Amendment attorney in Durham, North Carolina, named T. Greg Doucette started compiling videos of police brutality in a Twitter thread. Doucette, who describes himself as conservative but not Republican (not anymore), has been sharing videos of police brutality on social media since 2007, but says he was frustrated at how the furor would die down between incidents: “When you’re just doing it once every couple of days, no one really sees that it’s a systemic problem. They say, ‘That’s just one bad apple.’ ”

So when the Floyd protests began, Doucette decided to wait until he had 10 videos before posting them. It only took two days. “I posted those 10 from cities all over the country,” he says. “Then other people started sending me stuff, so I started adding those in as well, and it ended up snowballing into a hot mess.” As of this writing, Doucette’s thread contained at least 775 videos documenting police violence at protests around the country since May 29."

https://www.elle.com/culture/a33591530/tiktok-activism/
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rushy on September 25, 2020, 05:14:10 PM
https://twitter.com/kholmeslive/status/1309355842018238464?s=21

Keep a CCW in your cars, folks.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on September 25, 2020, 06:03:43 PM
https://twitter.com/kholmeslive/status/1309355842018238464?s=21

Keep a CCW in your cars, folks.

And don’t drive your vehicle in to a crowd of people either.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: TomInAustin on September 25, 2020, 07:16:13 PM
https://twitter.com/kholmeslive/status/1309355842018238464?s=21

Keep a CCW in your cars, folks.

And don’t drive your vehicle in to a crowd of people either.

Lot of isntances where crowds surronded a vehicle.  Floria is making it legal to run in these cases even if you run over someone.  Smart move
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 25, 2020, 07:59:49 PM
The car in front of the Prius turned away from the crowd. The Prius drove into it. Were the protesters just supposed to turn the other cheek when the Prius driver attempted to push them out of the way with his ton of metal?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 25, 2020, 08:08:09 PM
Were the protesters just supposed to turn the other cheek when the Prius driver attempted to push them out of the way with his ton of metal?
It's a bit of an unwritten social contract that people try not to be in the way of a moving vehicle. Those who choose not to follow that contract are usually given a very special kind of medical attention.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on September 25, 2020, 08:10:37 PM
https://twitter.com/kholmeslive/status/1309355842018238464?s=21

Keep a CCW in your cars, folks.

And don’t drive your vehicle in to a crowd of people either.

Lot of isntances where crowds surronded a vehicle.  Floria is making it legal to run in these cases even if you run over someone.  Smart move

Smarter move would have been to just go elsewhere.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on September 25, 2020, 08:11:11 PM
Were the protesters just supposed to turn the other cheek when the Prius driver attempted to push them out of the way with his ton of metal?
It's a bit of an unwritten social contract that people try not to be in the way of a moving vehicle. Those who choose not to follow that contract are usually given a very special kind of medical attention.

Except that the street was quite obviously teeming with people.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rushy on September 25, 2020, 08:17:09 PM
https://twitter.com/kholmeslive/status/1309355842018238464?s=21

Keep a CCW in your cars, folks.

And don’t drive your vehicle in to a crowd of people either.

It's unlikely this person drove into the street expecting a crowd of morons to be blocking it, so they just tried to gently drive through and then the crowd of morons started beating on the car. After driving through a crowd with zero injuries, a truck proceeded to try to run the man down anyway. Really great stuff.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 25, 2020, 08:26:58 PM
Except that the street was quite obviously teeming with people.
It is an expressly written and legally enforceable contract that that's not how streets work.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Tumeni on September 25, 2020, 10:36:34 PM
It's a bit of an unwritten social contract that people try not to be in the way of a moving vehicle.

The middle pedal, on a manual transmission car, is the brake pedal. It is used in conjunction with the steering to either stop the car, or steer away, when confronted with an unexpected obstacle or hazard on the road ahead. This could include debris from other vehicles, road accident victims, jaywalkers, someone taken ill, or, as we have here, a spontaneous protest.

The idea is to avoid harm to the car, the occupants, and to whatever or whomever the hazard is.

It's generally accepted that deliberately driving TOWARD the hazard, with the intent of ploughing through it, is the wrong approach, regardless of whether or not the hazard should be there or not.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on September 25, 2020, 11:02:00 PM
Except that the street was quite obviously teeming with people.
It is an expressly written and legally enforceable contract that that's not how streets work.

Someone jay walking is not permission to hit them with a car.  What is this silliness?  The whole situation was all sorts of wrong, but let's not pretend it was a bad idea to try and force your vehicle through a crowd?  The protesters can be wrong as well as the driver being wrong.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 27, 2020, 12:46:44 PM
Someone jay walking is not permission to hit them with a car.
They weren't jaywalking, were they?

let's not pretend it was a bad idea to try and force your vehicle through a crowd?
I know this was a slip of the tongue, but... ;)

The protesters can be wrong as well as the driver being wrong.
Sure, both sides did dumb things, but one side is disproportionately dumber and (rightly, in my view) is thus being held to account. Hopefully cementing this in the law will prevent future incidents.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on September 27, 2020, 01:34:30 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't pedestrians always have the right of way?
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: honk on September 27, 2020, 03:01:04 PM
Pedestrians are people who are actually traveling on foot, not simply standing or protesting in the middle of the street.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on September 27, 2020, 03:56:29 PM
Someone jay walking is not permission to hit them with a car.
They weren't jaywalking, were they?

Whatever misdemeanour you want to accuse them of.

Quote
let's not pretend it was a bad idea to try and force your vehicle through a crowd?
I know this was a slip of the tongue, but... ;)

Clever boy.

Quote
The protesters can be wrong as well as the driver being wrong.
Sure, both sides did dumb things, but one side is disproportionately dumber and (rightly, in my view) is thus being held to account. Hopefully cementing this in the law will prevent future incidents.

Is the side driving a car in to a crowd of people the dumber one?  I don't know where you stand on this.  I don't see one as dumber than the other since the car is much deadlier in that setting.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 27, 2020, 05:11:55 PM
I don't see one as dumber than the other since the car is much deadlier in that setting.
In this particular case, the car was remarkably non-deadly. As in, caused precisely zero deaths, and no bodily harm as far as I'm aware of. It would seem that, under the circumstances, the driver did his utmost to minimise the risk he presented to others. Did he do everything right? Fuck no. Was he "deadlier" than the crowd of madmen that actively tried to harm him? I'd need some convincing.

The crowd went out of their way to chase the car after it cleared the blockade and caused significant damage to property. One of them directly assaulted the driver, trying to rip him out of his car. What do you think would have happened if they successfully extracted him from the car? I don't think they wanted to hug him.

To me, the balance is pretty obvious. The driver is lucky to have got out alive, and the protesters are the ones who intended on causing harm to another person.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Rama Set on September 27, 2020, 06:15:48 PM
I don't see one as dumber than the other since the car is much deadlier in that setting.
In this particular case, the car was remarkably non-deadly. As in, caused precisely zero deaths, and no bodily harm as far as I'm aware of. It would seem that, under the circumstances, the driver did his utmost to minimise the risk he presented to others. Did he do everything right? Fuck no. Was he "deadlier" than the crowd of madmen that actively tried to harm him? I'd need some convincing.

The crowd went out of their way to chase the car after it cleared the blockade and caused significant damage to property. One of them directly assaulted the driver, trying to rip him out of his car. What do you think would have happened if they successfully extracted him from the car? I don't think they wanted to hug him.

To me, the balance is pretty obvious. The driver is lucky to have got out alive, and the protesters are the ones who intended on causing harm to another person.

A car moving at 5mph is incredibly capable of causing bodily harm, so there isn't a standard of care in a non-emergency that mitigates driving in to a crowd in my eyes.  That no one was hurt is irrelevant to the recklessness of the action.  I'm not going to try and justify the mob that went after the driver either.

For me it's just a nice microcosm of American attitudes towards others in their society.  "You're in my way! Fuck you!" "But I believe in something so fuck YOU!"
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 27, 2020, 06:16:43 PM
For me it's just a nice microcosm of American attitudes towards others in their society.  "You're in my way! Fuck you!" "But I believe in something so fuck YOU!"
All things aside, I can definitely agree with that take.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on September 27, 2020, 06:46:21 PM
For me it's just a nice microcosm of American attitudes towards others in their society.  "You're in my way! Fuck you!" "But I believe in something so fuck YOU!"
All things aside, I can definitely agree with that take.
Agreed.  That is oddly accurate.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on September 28, 2020, 11:38:36 AM
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/27/917523942/woman-charged-with-attempted-murder-after-driving-into-pro-trump-protesters

Oh look, Trump supporters blocking the road and being hit by a car.

Like seriously, you can't tell they weren't BLM until you saw the red hat and Trump flags.
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: jack44556677 on September 28, 2020, 11:49:12 AM
No, they are performing the job they are hired for.  They are not "out of control" as much as they are "under control".

The origin of the police in the US is straightforward and unambiguous.  They are private security and militia for the owners. They in no way work for your protection or "the stability of society" (what a moron you'd have to be to swallow that!), nor was there some golden era in which they did (there were pockets, at times).

Stricter laws and enforcement equals more people in prison.  The "deterrent" concept is completely bs with no support whatsoever.  More finable offenses means more revenue, and to a large extent the "butlers in blue" are only meter maids with guns working for the insurance syndicate today.  It's all very sad, but easy to understand.

In regards to running people over - Pete's comments are right.  Learn about the silver shirts, learn about the connection to the other/later "SS" - really dark stuff.  The slaves do not matter at all to the slavers beyond the job they are required to do, and will often be put in prison to be forced to do if they do not comply.

It's important to remember that police are failures, societally, economically, and educationally speaking.  They couldn't get any better job, and had no prospects, so thought a shot at a pension might be a good option.  The stupidest, most aggressive, least capable end up as cops.  And they have a LOT to be angry about, in their own lives and in society at large.  That anger is fostered and encouraged a variety of ways, and the "pigs" have no idea what role they play.  They're still taught they "keep the peace", "hold society together from anarchy", and are "heroes".  They are also taught that there lives are constantly in danger and they are in a hurry to get to pension station, so shoot first and sleep well.  Factor in the thugs (criminals. effectively) that they hire to "fight fire with fire" / "fight junkyard dogs, with junkyard dogs), the ones on the take (most of them, traditionally - see serpico for more info), and the disillusioned and almost universally maligned (also very stupid, poor/alternative-less/desperate) former military service men that already feel alienated and animosity towards general citizens for not "supporting our troops" and respecting them as "heroes" instead of the brainwashed murdering puppets they obviously are.  He's the universal soldier and he really is to blame.  Soldiers and police come from the same candidate pool (the poor with no options/alternatives), and they end up in a "club" together pitted against the citizenry where they can still play with guns, kill people, and relive the "glory days of battle" no doubt.  Heroism and boys with toys.  They are the impoverished, given the tiniest bit of authority which you can be well assured the majority will abuse - see the stanford prison experiment for more info.

There is too much bad to say about them, frankly. I've only paid lip service to a handful of the systemic and designed problems that the police cause and represent. They have never been there when I needed them and have only ever been a negative influence my life and the lives of most all others.  The chances of them being there when you need them, or having adequate response time, are very low and the role they serve is not, and has never been in my lifetime anyhow, your protection.

They are not a part of our society, they are a militant arm of the slavers and that was their original purpose too.  You can learn a thing or two from history, and from paying attention today.

Abolishing the police and prisons will help immensely. but the greedy ignorant slavers don't want that to happen.

Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: honk on September 29, 2020, 12:51:38 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U86UEfo3Dv0

More shocking police brutality. :(
Title: Re: Are the American police out of control?
Post by: Lord Dave on September 16, 2021, 08:40:21 PM
Hey, remember this?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_SRE-DWUAMEI5c.jpg)


Turns out, they stole the kid from the mom's car they were beating the shit out of her.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_SRFKEXEAEcw1o.jpg)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1279134