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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #140 on: April 28, 2016, 06:51:50 AM »
God made humans have hunger and need food.
God gave humans fear and predators and disease.
God gave us Greed.

We are what God made us to be.  We fight because we fear death.  We steal because we are hungry or greedy. 

Humans, if made by God, are so flawed in design it makes you wonder how an all knowing, perfect creator could fail so hard.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline Round fact

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Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #141 on: April 28, 2016, 10:43:55 AM »
God made humans have hunger and need food.
God gave humans fear and predators and disease.
God gave us Greed.

We are what God made us to be.  We fight because we fear death.  We steal because we are hungry or greedy. 

Humans, if made by God, are so flawed in design it makes you wonder how an all knowing, perfect creator could fail so hard.

God gave is free choice and WE screwed it up.

Rama Set

Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #142 on: April 28, 2016, 11:07:22 AM »
We screwed it up because God created us imperfectly. What an asshole.

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #143 on: April 28, 2016, 11:52:46 AM »
God made humans have hunger and need food.
God gave humans fear and predators and disease.
God gave us Greed.

We are what God made us to be.  We fight because we fear death.  We steal because we are hungry or greedy. 

Humans, if made by God, are so flawed in design it makes you wonder how an all knowing, perfect creator could fail so hard.

God gave is free choice and WE screwed it up.
Nope.  God gave us curiosity.  He also gave us the freedom to chose, but only one choice he allowed.  Tell me, how many choices do you have when one is forbidden and punishable by suffering? 

Humans had only one choice: not change.  Not give into their god given curiosity.  Not seek answers God would not provide.

God made us his way.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #144 on: April 28, 2016, 11:53:29 AM »
We screwed it up because God created us imperfectly. What an asshole.

There is no denying, whichever way you cut the God made us story, he always comes out as an asshole.

Sticks us in a garden, “right this is home, do what you like, except touch the fucking apples”.
After giving us the "ignore all warnings about the apple thingy" gene, and letting a duplicitous snake have free reign.
Knowing this (as he is omniscient) he then gets all righteous and punishes all their descendants too, asshole!
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 08:07:12 PM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #145 on: April 28, 2016, 03:21:58 PM »
God made humans have hunger and need food.
God gave humans fear and predators and disease.
God gave us Greed.

We are what God made us to be.  We fight because we fear death.  We steal because we are hungry or greedy. 

Humans, if made by God, are so flawed in design it makes you wonder how an all knowing, perfect creator could fail so hard.

God gave is free choice and WE screwed it up.
Nope.  God gave us curiosity.  He also gave us the freedom to chose, but only one choice he allowed.  Tell me, how many choices do you have when one is forbidden and punishable by suffering? 

Humans had only one choice: not change.  Not give into their god given curiosity.  Not seek answers God would not provide.

God made us his way.
How convenient.
Ignored by Intikam since 2016.

Saddam Hussein

Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #146 on: April 28, 2016, 03:36:23 PM »
Free will is a myth.  We are all the products of our internal and external influences.

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #147 on: April 28, 2016, 03:43:27 PM »
God made humans have hunger and need food.
God gave humans fear and predators and disease.
God gave us Greed.

We are what God made us to be.  We fight because we fear death.  We steal because we are hungry or greedy. 

Humans, if made by God, are so flawed in design it makes you wonder how an all knowing, perfect creator could fail so hard.

God gave is free choice and WE screwed it up.
Nope.  God gave us curiosity.  He also gave us the freedom to chose, but only one choice he allowed.  Tell me, how many choices do you have when one is forbidden and punishable by suffering? 

Humans had only one choice: not change.  Not give into their god given curiosity.  Not seek answers God would not provide.

God made us his way.
How convenient.
I don't make the mythology, I just repeat it.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #148 on: April 28, 2016, 05:40:03 PM »
Free will is a myth.  We are all the products of our internal and external influences.

Who is writing this post then? Blind causality?

We all experience freedom first hand. But obviously all experience of outside events is already framed in terms of cause and effect, so we don't perceive it in others.

Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #149 on: April 28, 2016, 06:53:37 PM »
How could you ever gauge someone's resilience if they never had to face adversity. Physical existence on Earth isn't supposed to be perfect. Everything decays around us, our body, our world, our relationships. All religions talk about a "heaven" or a "nirvana" state. If life is a test, meant to weed out those who love worldly things and themselves, how could you determine who passes or fails if everyone has everything, and no sacrifices ever have to be made.

The point of the Garden of Eden story is the original intention was to give us everything. At some point our souls existed on a higher plane closer to the Creator. Our love of this world, and pursuit of flesh desires, generation after generation, pulls us away from a higher everlasting metaphysical existence to a  fleeting physical one.

You can't blame God for why humanity is fucked up. We've shown time and again how self-destructive we are as species. Even animals we deem beneath us aren't dumb enough to continuously do things to jeopardize their existence. The answers are here, and there is enough for everyone... it's greed, stupidity, and selfishness that has us in the situation we're in right now. We have the tools and ability to solve our problems, don't blame God for us not using them.

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #150 on: April 28, 2016, 09:19:16 PM »
How could you ever gauge someone's resilience if they never had to face adversity. Physical existence on Earth isn't supposed to be perfect. Everything decays around us, our body, our world, our relationships. All religions talk about a "heaven" or a "nirvana" state. If life is a test, meant to weed out those who love worldly things and themselves, how could you determine who passes or fails if everyone has everything, and no sacrifices ever have to be made.

The point of the Garden of Eden story is the original intention was to give us everything. At some point our souls existed on a higher plane closer to the Creator. Our love of this world, and pursuit of flesh desires, generation after generation, pulls us away from a higher everlasting metaphysical existence to a  fleeting physical one.

You can't blame God for why humanity is fucked up. We've shown time and again how self-destructive we are as species. Even animals we deem beneath us aren't dumb enough to continuously do things to jeopardize their existence. The answers are here, and there is enough for everyone... it's greed, stupidity, and selfishness that has us in the situation we're in right now. We have the tools and ability to solve our problems, don't blame God for us not using them.

Why would God need to test us?  He literally made us.  He also should know what we'll do before we do it.  Thus, the need for testing is irrelevant.  You only need to test something if you aren't perfect or all knowing.

Secondly: If the garden of eden was meant to give us everything, why then:
1. Did we NOT have everything?
2. Why did we NOT have the ability to reproduce?
3. Why did we want more?  What made us want more than "everything"?  I mean, who invented greed, desire, and selfishness?

We can't do more than our creator has deemed us to do.  We can't do less either.  Unless you admit that God created us imperfect which means he did it intentionally or he is imperfect himself.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #151 on: April 29, 2016, 03:17:55 AM »
We were created in the image of God. Do you really believe that phrase means God is some dude, with like a beard, and eyes and a nose and mouth? Our immortal soul itself is what that is referring to. The garden of eden is a metaphor of when our souls were more pure and closer to God.

I believe something went wrong somewhere, obviously. There are different accounts, the fruit from the tree obviously, and I've even read stuff about an actual rebellion led by Satan himself in heaven.
The obvious solution for a merciless God would be outright destruction of all impure souls. But by all accounts the Creator is merciful. Maybe even souls are indestructible, along the lines of matter cannot be created or destroyed. Maybe thanks to His forgiveness we are able to, through physical manifestation, attempt to purify our soul in an attempt to return back to metaphorical garden.

Without temptation, there is no struggle. Without hunger there is no sacrifice. It is your choice to go up or down the ladder, per se, according to your "works" or deeds.

It's not that we were created imperfect, it's that we've become this way. And if we are taught and led to believe that there is no existence beyond what you see, hear, touch, taste and smell, we will continue this downward spiral, and never know our true potential as infinite beings all connected through the Oneness of God.

Saddam Hussein

Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #152 on: April 29, 2016, 04:19:22 AM »
Free will is a myth.  We are all the products of our internal and external influences.

Who is writing this post then? Blind causality?

We all experience freedom first hand. But obviously all experience of outside events is already framed in terms of cause and effect, so we don't perceive it in others.

We experience the illusion of freedom, nothing more.  Your own actions are determined by cause and effect just as much as outside events are.  You might feel like you freely make choices, but you don't decide what your internal influences are.  You don't have any control over how angry you feel, how patient you feel, how happy you feel, etc.

Rama Set

Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #153 on: April 29, 2016, 04:26:48 AM »
We were created in the image of God. Do you really believe that phrase means God is some dude, with like a beard, and eyes and a nose and mouth? Our immortal soul itself is what that is referring to. The garden of eden is a metaphor of when our souls were more pure and closer to God.

I believe something went wrong somewhere, obviously. There are different accounts, the fruit from the tree obviously, and I've even read stuff about an actual rebellion led by Satan himself in heaven.
The obvious solution for a merciless God would be outright destruction of all impure souls. But by all accounts the Creator is merciful. Maybe even souls are indestructible, along the lines of matter cannot be created or destroyed. Maybe thanks to His forgiveness we are able to, through physical manifestation, attempt to purify our soul in an attempt to return back to metaphorical garden.

Without temptation, there is no struggle. Without hunger there is no sacrifice. It is your choice to go up or down the ladder, per se, according to your "works" or deeds.

It's not that we were created imperfect, it's that we've become this way. And if we are taught and led to believe that there is no existence beyond what you see, hear, touch, taste and smell, we will continue this downward spiral, and never know our true potential as infinite beings all connected through the Oneness of God.

All of which is part of God's plan (or he is not omniscient) and superfluous (or he is not omnipotent).  He is either God and an asshole, or not God.

Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #154 on: April 29, 2016, 04:50:05 AM »
We experience the illusion of freedom, nothing more.  Your own actions are determined by cause and effect just as much as outside events are.  You might feel like you freely make choices, but you don't decide what your internal influences are.  You don't have any control over how angry you feel, how patient you feel, how happy you feel, etc.

How do you know it is an illusion? An illusion is an appearance which does not conform to reality. But you don't know the reality. All you have is appearances. Things appear to be determined by cause and effect. But aren't cause and effect the illusion? After all, you cannot observe cause and effect without the principle already formed. You cannot prove it's reality unless you assume it as the premise. It is just as much in your mind as the appearance of freedom. You may be able to say that empirical reality is, by definition, determined by cause and effect. But your own consciousness isn't part of the outside world, and so you cannot know whether it is governed by the same principles.

As to your feelings and outside influences: Who says you cannot decide against them? Who says you cannot influence your feelings? Lot's of people seem to think you can determine how you feel by thinking the right thoughts. Sure, we don't know that we're free, for the same reason we don't know we're unfree. But it is possible. We have the appearance of freedom in our minds. In the absence of evidence of the reality, which can never be obtained, we are allowed to assume our freedom, just as we assume the appearance of the outside world is actual reality.

Re: Separation of Church & Science | Intelligent Design and the Flat Earth
« Reply #155 on: April 29, 2016, 08:08:01 PM »
Free will is a myth.  We are all the products of our internal and external influences.

Who is writing this post then? Blind causality?

We all experience freedom first hand. But obviously all experience of outside events is already framed in terms of cause and effect, so we don't perceive it in others.

We experience the illusion of freedom, nothing more.  Your own actions are determined by cause and effect just as much as outside events are.  You might feel like you freely make choices, but you don't decide what your internal influences are.  You don't have any control over how angry you feel, how patient you feel, how happy you feel, etc.

To a certain extent, freedom is an illusion. Your decisions are obviously based on prior experience, and the people and situations you attract are directly related to the energy you project and the thoughts you have.

But it is entirely possible through conscious effort to alter your mind state. It is in your power to focus your energies to change the way you think, and to change the type of people and situations you attract to yourself.

I don't believe in predetermination for those reasons. I do believe in potentiality and actuality in regards to behavior, however, and I do believe that everyone is predisposed with certain ability that is a sum of their being: ancestral and the degree of which their consciousness (soul) has evolved.

That would explain why some people are seemingly born great musicians or artists etc. The potential and purpose is there in all of us, but it is our decision whether or not to actualize that potential. We can't make a cake without the ingredients. You are born with the right stuff, you obviously just need a recipe, and the right cooks in the kitchen.

Offline Round fact

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First and foremost is the fact that the OP is placing limits on God and His Creation to fit the OP's personal view of what he believes it should be. The OP seems... Strike that. IS convinced that God did not then, nor does now, have the power to create the Big Bang. That God is so puny that a small little FE under a small dome is all He is capable of.

Second, the OP, is like Intikam, though more polite in that he hints, rather than getting in your face, that if you don't take the Creation Account word for word you deny God.

Third, the OP forgets that the Creation Account was told to, and written by, people with a very a limited vocabulary. They had no concept of the vastness of Creation, nor were they capable of understanding what it was God was showing them. God reduced it the understanding of the lowest common denominator.

Keeping on with the above point, all one needs do is read the Revelation of John. John was shown further events and did his best to describe them to his readers. I daresay, his descriptions are still unintelligible to the reader, though many have attempt to guess what was described.

Fourth, the OP like many others, past, present and future, have attempted to make science and God into one Being. Religion, or in the OP's case, God, is WHO did it. Science was, is, and always will be HOW it was done.

Which brings us to the the fifth point. Science is not Anti-God. Not even the Atheist Scientist is anti-God, simply because God not provable. One can observe, but there is no experiment, there is no math to prove Him. There never will be. God is about Faith.

Hebrews 11:1
Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.

It is clear, science has no part in this.

One more point that needs to be understood, thoughI have doubts the OP will seek to understand.

Humans on a Blue Marble orbiting a star orbiting a galaxy orbiting billions of other galaxies are still special to God, because He STILL created us.

It is sad the OP believes he has to limit God's Creation in order see himself as worthy of God and it misses the point of the New Testament completely.

Open your eyes and LOOK at His Creation. ALL of it. AMAZING

I'm assuming I'm OP, even though a lot of that doesn't seem to correlate to my position whatsoever.

First and foremost there is no limit to the Creator. I never implied that. The implication is that evolution and the big bang are not sound logically. Another important thing worth mentioning, and has been mentioned --i forgive you for not reading all 8 or so pages of this-- is evolution excludes God, and is an alternative to Creation. Creation does NOT exclude evolution, though I'm more inclined to believe that it has not been demonstrated how a single cell can turn into a fish into an ape into a man. Another thing that evolution has absolutely no answer for is the Origin of Life. I've been accused of conflating evolution and origin of life, via stupidity and or malicious intent, repeatedly. However we know this basic tenet of existence: Life comes from other life. There is no answer for that first spark of Life within the confines of Godless modern cosmogony. There is no example of an inorganic compound becoming an INFINITELY and INFINITESIMALLY complex living being, even a single celled organism.

You seem to be a believer in Creation, but you must realize you are at odds with even an atheist scientist, who's personal agenda is to remove God from the equation. You can say he can't be anti-god but isn't that what atheism is in the first place? Agnosticism is maybe what you are referring to, someone that admits they can't prove or disprove God's existence. There is, in my opinion, an active malevolent agenda to condition people into believing life is a meaningless, fleeting, material thing. What better way then to remove God from creation, and teach people they are a lucky accident on a speck in the Universe. This is the implication. This is the accepted dogma. I'm not making this up. It is evolution vs creationism education being debated across the country, even though I went to public school in the North East and evolution was completely and totally taught as a fact.

Of course all of Creation would be precious to the Creator. I do agree with that. I don't doubt for a second that there are possibly thousands, or millions of other planets that have life on it like ours. I don't pretend to be special in that sense. I am strictly bringing to light the agenda in which the Creator is being actively removed from the Creation in society. You should be able to tell by the degradation of values and morals and even the family structure itself just how effective this agenda has been.

Perhaps, though, maybe you missed the intent of this post in the first place. I didn't come here to debate creation/evolution/big bang at all. I came here to discuss the inherent error with trying to debate the shape of the Earth within the confines of the scientific community. As you can see I've been staunchly rebuked, and even attacked personally for my belief in God-- of which I'm in the majority of humanity. To try to discuss the Earth possibly being flat in that same arena is a disaster.

I do, however, want to thank you for taking the time to weigh in on the discussion. Discourse and debate are great ways to find the truth of a situation, but not always the best way to come to understand someone. Just because one doesn't believe the same exact things as another, that doesn't make them any less worthy of having a say. If my treatment here is any indication, you can see just how judgemental and close-minded we have become as a society. America in particular was built upon the principle of giving the minority a say in how there life is ran, built upon allowing dissenting voices to be heard, not silencing them.

Of course, I must be trolling if I believed that those principles are dear to our leaders or the general public anymore.

I must apologize for taking so long to reply. I missed the notification sent to me of your response.

Yes you are OP as in Original Poster.

I am a Christian, and I try hard to understand the Bible, I drive my long time friend who is now a Pastor nuts with questions. Questions that even involve this site. Which should point out for the record, that I don't it all. And if I asked my Pastor friend, he would say the same thing.

I do question your 15% of scientist believe in God stat you mentioned in the OP. An admittedly down and dirty internet search indicates the figure ranges from 33% to 41% or  more that twice your figure.

This is a personal observation, and is of course dated. But when I was in school, it was not the Science Teachers that mentioned God or religion. The teachers that went out of their way to slam religion, focusing on Christianity, were Social Studies and Humanities.

Yet in fact, religion and science are two separate studies. As I posted earlier, religion says who and science attempts show how.  There is no reason for either "side" to castigate the other for their views. Science is not evil. It IS just a tool for explaining things. Religion is unprovable, it is faith in things not seen.

You see it though, as do I. Leaving the rainfly off my tent at 10 thousand feet on a clear night and watching the sky... I see God's work. Or watching the sun chase the moon in circles at 3 am in July in a camp west of Nome Alaska. FANTASTIC.

Evolution is a sticking point. But only because each side feel a silly need to prove the other wrong. Science will never find that spark of life. But at the same time  they should never give up the attempt. Leaning is in the journey, not the destination. Religion should not attempt prove science wrong. Science is a faith, it is only an explanation and in my opinion, with evolution a poor one at that. Too many missing parts and far too long a timespan between them.

I am not saying evolution is Biblical. But there are some interesting parallels  between the two. The Bible says life started in the sea. So does evolution. Both agree in as to what life appeared in what order. 

I think the sticking point is WHO started it, not how He did it, and that means digging in our heels and not listening to what is really being explained, for BOTH sides.

The Big Bang does not belittle God. That it was some 14 billion years ago does not take anything away from God's word. What does take away God's word is our foolish need to place limits on what God did and why He did it.

The Big Bang is awesome. Black Holes, Super Novas, Comets, ALL of it, AWESOME. That we were created with stuff of stars, SUPPER AWESOME.

A limitless God. I got nothing I say to describe that.

And I appreciate that unlike another you don't call others Satanist because we believe in a globe and a vast universe. I think that if you can come to understand the different functions of religion and science, you will come to see that, the political rhetoric aside Science is not against you or me or anyone else.  It is like the gun issue. Guns don't kill. PEOPLE do. Science is not anti-God, some of the PEOPLE who happen to be Scientist are.









https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/may/23/new-fossil-find-points-to-rapid-evolution-of-marine-reptiles-after-mass-extinction

I wonder how this rapid evolution model reconciles with the generally accepted slow, unmethodical, lucky singular beneficial mutation at a time over millions of years.