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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Police Body Cameras
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2015, 04:47:43 PM »
The primary use of police is to hold people accountable. Let's step out of imagination land and realize that holding the people accountable who hold the people accountable is redundant.

No, that is not redundant. Why shouldn't police be held accountable for their actions?
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Offline JRowe

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Re: Police Body Cameras
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2015, 04:48:39 PM »
A shift in thinking towards a state that records absolutely everything in order to impose its will. It is the next terrible step in the information age, where bureaucracy finally catches up. Its a step I intend to slow down as much as humanly possible.
That's not even close to what's being proposed. There's an option: ex-police do have a fair few career choices, and police don't need to engage in field-work. Choice is at play: and there's no invasion of privacy given that, when they are wearing cams, they're servants of the public. What they do should be public: it's already legal to film them. Having it so they can't avoid accountability is a good thing.

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Yes, it is well known that the government attempts to coerce countless people into giving plea deals so that they don't get a fair trial judged by their peers. I wouldn't exactly say its a good thing.
People with evidence stacked against them, who are guilty, may confess. That's just how it works. You can't focus on minor cases like they're representative.

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The primary use of police is to hold people accountable. Let's step out of imagination land and realize that holding the people accountable who hold the people accountable is redundant.
It's not redundant when they're getting away with murder. The police only work if people can trust them: the fact is, many don't.

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That footage will magically disappear and nothing will change except where your tax money is going.
My tax money's going no matter what happens. I'd like it to at least be used for something vaguely useful. If the footage magically disappears, especially if it does so regularly, that's corruption plain and simple, and will be dealt with as such.

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"Sorry, we can't pull that footage on account of we deleted it as there was nothing to see" Hah, okay.
Did you even read what I said? Footage of incidents, arrests etc: they'd remain. Deleting that would be an offence. Deleting someone driving along, not so much.

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The UK is not full of sprawling suburbs. It is an urban country with a relatively small police force compared to their population. Hello Apple, meet Orange, the guy we're now comparing you to because you both happen to be fruits, and thus are exactly the same.
Never said exactly: just illustrating that they do indeed work, and that a lot of your objections about how feasible their use is simply don't hold water. Storing footage isn't going to become more or less difficult based on terrain; maybe there's a little more in the US due to the larger police force, but it follows there are more resources to store, for example.
Your only argument can be that they somehow won't serve any useful purpose: and that's only the case if they are willing to be openly corrupt. And, sure, maybe they will: not all of them will so we will still see an improvement, and as for the rest, at least it will be out in the open: and from there, it can be dealt with.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Police Body Cameras
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2015, 07:33:27 PM »
No, that is not redundant. Why shouldn't police be held accountable for their actions?

I think you misunderstand what I said. Police are responsible for keeping police accountable already. Saying body cameras will help that is nonsense. Its just something else that will be used to film the public and not actually help police brutality cases at all, which there are already very few of regardless.

That's not even close to what's being proposed. There's an option: ex-police do have a fair few career choices, and police don't need to engage in field-work. Choice is at play: and there's no invasion of privacy given that, when they are wearing cams, they're servants of the public. What they do should be public: it's already legal to film them. Having it so they can't avoid accountability is a good thing.

Actually it is illegal in some states to film police.

People with evidence stacked against them, who are guilty, may confess. That's just how it works. You can't focus on minor cases like they're representative.

Plea deals are used against the impoverished because they can't afford good representation, not because evidence is stacked against them. The system tries to convince you it isn't worth trying to 'prove your innocence'. It sounds like you're busy living in a bubble of idealism.

It's not redundant when they're getting away with murder. The police only work if people can trust them: the fact is, many don't.

"I don't trust the police, so I want the police to wear body cameras that the police monitor so the police will report the police more often."

My tax money's going no matter what happens. I'd like it to at least be used for something vaguely useful. If the footage magically disappears, especially if it does so regularly, that's corruption plain and simple, and will be dealt with as such.

If obvious corruption can be dealt with so easily, why do we have this problem in the first place?

Did you even read what I said? Footage of incidents, arrests etc: they'd remain. Deleting that would be an offence. Deleting someone driving along, not so much.

Deleting any part of it opens up just that, deleting any part of it. It will suddenly become even easier to lose footage when you have someone deciding what to keep and what to delete.

Never said exactly: just illustrating that they do indeed work, and that a lot of your objections about how feasible their use is simply don't hold water. Storing footage isn't going to become more or less difficult based on terrain; maybe there's a little more in the US due to the larger police force, but it follows there are more resources to store, for example.
Your only argument can be that they somehow won't serve any useful purpose: and that's only the case if they are willing to be openly corrupt. And, sure, maybe they will: not all of them will so we will still see an improvement, and as for the rest, at least it will be out in the open: and from there, it can be dealt with.

Did you at least wave at the point while it flew past your head?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 07:39:30 PM by Rushy »

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Police Body Cameras
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2015, 08:59:32 PM »
Plea deals are used against the impoverished because they can't afford good representation, not because evidence is stacked against them. The system tries to convince you it isn't worth trying to 'prove your innocence'. It sounds like you're busy living in a bubble of idealism.
No, that's definitely true: body cameras don't impact that either way. The point is, that situation is not universally the case.

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"I don't trust the police, so I want the police to wear body cameras that the police monitor so the police will report the police more often."
Do you understand how the legal system works? It's biased in favor of the police, sure, but not that much: open corruption will be investigated and punished. If the police could prevent things going to trial, they would: and while the rate of indictment for cops is awful, that can only improve when body cameras are available: then footage will be provided.

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If obvious corruption can be dealt with so easily, why do we have this problem in the first place?
Because it takes a hell of a lot for people to take notice: look at Ferguson. Whether you agree with what's happening or not, look at the level of protest that was needed to draw any attention.

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Deleting any part of it opens up just that, deleting any part of it. It will suddenly become even easier to lose footage when you have someone deciding what to keep and what to delete.
Except there's a huge difference between footage of the inside of a car, and footage of an armed confrontation.

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Did you at least wave at the point while it flew past your head?
What point? Your point was only partially relevant. The mechanisms of a body camera are not going to alter between continents, only application: and I said as much. The application I'm happy to talk about, but independently of the UK and various other places (including some in the US) where introduction has been applied and proven beneficial, there are no serious negatives, and plenty of positives, if enforced with a modicum of thought.
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Police Body Cameras
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2015, 06:43:58 PM »
I am now in full support of police body cameras. State troopers, sheriffs, k-9 units, the whole deal. I redact my previous statements in this thread.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Police Body Cameras
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2015, 06:46:40 PM »
Cool
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