[Yaakov ben Avraham]

This is an interesting question. What do people think would be the ideal State? Please note that this does not ask what exact Government a State should have (ie, should it be monarchical, or a representative democracy, or what-have-you), although some forms of Government work better with certain types of States.

But I should like to see what people think here. Cast your vote, and don't hesitate to comment on why you cast your vote for a certain system if any. I am immensely curious. So fire away!

[The Ellimist]

I like what the Scandinavian countries have going for them right now.

[Pete Svarrior]

There is no such thing as a perfect state. Every setup will have its benefits and downsides.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Allow me to clarify:

What is the ideal State?

Clearly, no State is perfect, but what would be ideal, insofar as humans can get it to that point?

[Pete Svarrior]

I still don't think there is one. I believe there would always be at least one very major faction of dissatisfied citizens.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Ok. I respect that point of view, whilst I disagree with it.

[Benjamin Franklin]

A constitutional Republic based on the United States constitution.

Evidence: Highest GDP baby! GDP! USA! GDP!

[The Ellimist]

A constitutional Republic based on the United States constitution.

Evidence: Highest GDP baby! GDP! USA! GDP!

[Rushy]

Voted other because "There is no perfect State" is not an option.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

A constitutional Republic based on the United States constitution.

Evidence: Highest GDP baby! GDP! USA! GDP!

I'm not so sure. Is the world's highest GDP (citation needed, BTW), necessarily the indicator of a nation's good government? We (the USA), per capita the population, have a higher percentage of our people locked up than any nation in the world, including such luminaries as China, Iran, and N. Korea. The Scandinavian nations are listed as being socially happier than Americans.

I'm not trying to shit on the USA, which is my country too. But we have to be honest with ourselves. IS money the source of all happiness? It would seem not.

[Rushy]

Give us some magical yardstick to measure with, then. What would make a perfect State perfect? GDP? Prison Population? Health? Religion? Technology? Nuclear bombs?

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Give us some magical yardstick to measure with, then. What would make a perfect State perfect? GDP? Prison Population? Health? Religion? Technology? Nuclear bombs?

A legitimate question, & a damned hard 1 to answer! Do note that I revised "the perfect State" to the "ideal State", which is a subtle, but substantial nonethless, difference. What would make for the Ideal State? I was the one who voted for Plato's Republic. I believe that the ruling class should be well trained in Philosophy, Logic, and Law. This background allows them to rule with a firm, wise hand. It has been some time since I read The Republic, but I recall that there were three classes in society, the Rulers, the Guardians, and the Artisans. Obviously, in modern terms, there would be a more complex society than this. But fundamentally, society would be ruled by Philosopher Kings in the line of Platonic Thought.

Of course, this assumes that the society is multi-confessional and multi-racial. In a society dominated by Jews or Muslims or Christians or Hindus, I'm fine with Jewish or Muslim or Christian or Hindu law prevailing, although I still think you can have Philosopher Kings, just geared toward Jewish or Muslim or Christian or Hindu Law. In a case where this occurs, every 50 years it should be determined whether it is socially advisable to continue to rule the State according to religious laws.

[Benjamin Franklin]

I'm not so sure. Is the world's highest GDP (citation needed, BTW), necessarily the indicator of a nation's good government? We (the USA), per capita the population, have a higher percentage of our people locked up than any nation in the world, including such luminaries as China, Iran, and N. Korea. The Scandinavian nations are listed as being socially happier than Americans.

I'm not trying to shit on the USA, which is my country too. But we have to be honest with ourselves. IS money the source of all happiness? It would seem not.

We keep bad people in prison and make mod money? Sounds like the best to me.

Results are all that matter baby. The United States has been the sole hegemonic power of the modern world, and is by, really any measure that makes sense, the most powerful nation ever. Largest military, largest economy, massive cultural influence. If this was Civ, we'd have won a long time ago.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I'm not so sure. Is the world's highest GDP (citation needed, BTW), necessarily the indicator of a nation's good government? We (the USA), per capita the population, have a higher percentage of our people locked up than any nation in the world, including such luminaries as China, Iran, and N. Korea. The Scandinavian nations are listed as being socially happier than Americans.

I'm not trying to shit on the USA, which is my country too. But we have to be honest with ourselves. IS money the source of all happiness? It would seem not.

We keep bad people in prison and make mod money? Sounds like the best to me.

Results are all that matter baby. The United States has been the sole hegemonic power of the modern world, and is by, really any measure that makes sense, the most powerful nation ever. Largest military, largest economy, massive cultural influence. If this was Civ, we'd have won a long time ago.

And our people are fucking socially miserable, suffering from disease and want that is unheard of in other advanced nations, the literacy rate is atrocious compared to Western European States, in education indicators such as science, mathematics, and the like we come in DEAD LAST behind Germany, France, Japan, South Korea, etc, need I go on? How much longer will we be the world's hegemon? Have you not read history? Babylonia, Persia, Rome, Britain, the USA. We can, and will be replaced. Its only a matter of time.

[Rushy]

A legitimate question, & a damned hard 1 to answer! Do note that I revised "the perfect State" to the "ideal State", which is a subtle, but substantial nonethless, difference. What would make for the Ideal State? I was the one who voted for Plato's Republic. I believe that the ruling class should be well trained in Philosophy, Logic, and Law. This background allows them to rule with a firm, wise hand. It has been some time since I read The Republic, but I recall that there were three classes in society, the Rulers, the Guardians, and the Artisans. Obviously, in modern terms, there would be a more complex society than this. But fundamentally, society would be ruled by Philosopher Kings in the line of Platonic Thought.

Of course, this assumes that the society is multi-confessional and multi-racial. In a society dominated by Jews or Muslims or Christians or Hindus, I'm fine with Jewish or Muslim or Christian or Hindu law prevailing, although I still think you can have Philosopher Kings, just geared toward Jewish or Muslim or Christian or Hindu Law. In a case where this occurs, every 50 years it should be determined whether it is socially advisable to continue to rule the State according to religious laws.

You completely and utterly dodged the question. Is it really that hard for you to say "I don't know"?

And our people are fucking socially miserable, suffering from disease and want that is unheard of in other advanced nations, the literacy rate is atrocious compared to Western European States, in education indicators such as science, mathematics, and the like we come in DEAD LAST behind Germany, France, Japan, South Korea, etc, need I go on? How much longer will we be the world's hegemon? Have you not read history? Babylonia, Persia, Rome, Britain, the USA. We can, and will be replaced. Its only a matter of time.

Then an ideal state is measured by its education? You seem to be jumping around pointing out negatives without actually telling us what a positive is.

[Lord Dave]

The ideal state is so subjective that you might as well ask "what is the ideal color"?

The answer then, is simple:

The ideal state is a state in which all of its inhabitants consider it an ideal state.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

A legitimate question, & a damned hard 1 to answer! Do note that I revised "the perfect State" to the "ideal State", which is a subtle, but substantial nonethless, difference. What would make for the Ideal State? I was the one who voted for Plato's Republic. I believe that the ruling class should be well trained in Philosophy, Logic, and Law. This background allows them to rule with a firm, wise hand. It has been some time since I read The Republic, but I recall that there were three classes in society, the Rulers, the Guardians, and the Artisans. Obviously, in modern terms, there would be a more complex society than this. But fundamentally, society would be ruled by Philosopher Kings in the line of Platonic Thought.

Of course, this assumes that the society is multi-confessional and multi-racial. In a society dominated by Jews or Muslims or Christians or Hindus, I'm fine with Jewish or Muslim or Christian or Hindu law prevailing, although I still think you can have Philosopher Kings, just geared toward Jewish or Muslim or Christian or Hindu Law. In a case where this occurs, every 50 years it should be determined whether it is socially advisable to continue to rule the State according to religious laws.

You completely and utterly dodged the question. Is it really that hard for you to say "I don't know"?

And our people are fucking socially miserable, suffering from disease and want that is unheard of in other advanced nations, the literacy rate is atrocious compared to Western European States, in education indicators such as science, mathematics, and the like we come in DEAD LAST behind Germany, France, Japan, South Korea, etc, need I go on? How much longer will we be the world's hegemon? Have you not read history? Babylonia, Persia, Rome, Britain, the USA. We can, and will be replaced. Its only a matter of time.

Then an ideal state is measured by its education? You seem to be jumping around pointing out negatives without actually telling us what a positive is.

Absolutely by its education, yes. Basically, I would take Plato's Republic and not alter too much of it. Those who are best able to comprehend Philosophy, Logic, and Law should rule the State. Those who are best suited to fight should be Guardians. And those who are best suited to work should be what he called Artisans (although that term would be used loosely in the 21st Century).

And social mobility would be determined by the fact that everybody would be educated by the State, and whoever showed their talents early could be placed on a track suitable for their abilities. And those who refused to be obedient to law and order would not just be warehoused in prisons to become better criminals. They would work. They would be trained as Artisans for when they were released. Those who you could not release because of the viciousness of their crimes would become a permanent labour class. And once a prisoner was released, his crime would be FORGOTTEN, and he would be free to pursue that which he was trained to do. If a prisoner's crime needed to be remembered, that means he probably should never be released.

The ideal state is so subjective that you might as well ask "what is the ideal color"?

The answer then, is simple:

The ideal state is a state in which all of its inhabitants consider it an ideal state.

That is an interesting point, of course. But Dave, I think the question is a theoretical. Its not asking "What do Americans think is the Ideal State?", or "What do Frenchmen think is the Ideal State?". The question is more along the lines of what do YOU think is the Ideal State?

[Rushy]

Absolutely by its education, yes. Basically, I would take Plato's Republic and not alter too much of it. Those who are best able to comprehend Philosophy, Logic, and Law should rule the State. Those who are best suited to fight should be Guardians. And those who are best suited to work should be what he called Artisans (although that term would be used loosely in the 21st Century).

And social mobility would be determined by the fact that everybody would be educated by the State, and whoever showed their talents early could be placed on a track suitable for their abilities. And those who refused to be obedient to law and order would not just be warehoused in prisons to become better criminals. They would work. They would be trained as Artisans for when they were released. Those who you could not release because of the viciousness of their crimes would become a permanent labour class. And once a prisoner was released, his crime would be FORGOTTEN, and he would be free to pursue that which he was trained to do. If a prisoner's crime needed to be remembered, that means he probably should never be released.

So the ideal state is South Korea, followed by Finland and the US. Amazing.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Absolutely by its education, yes. Basically, I would take Plato's Republic and not alter too much of it. Those who are best able to comprehend Philosophy, Logic, and Law should rule the State. Those who are best suited to fight should be Guardians. And those who are best suited to work should be what he called Artisans (although that term would be used loosely in the 21st Century).

And social mobility would be determined by the fact that everybody would be educated by the State, and whoever showed their talents early could be placed on a track suitable for their abilities. And those who refused to be obedient to law and order would not just be warehoused in prisons to become better criminals. They would work. They would be trained as Artisans for when they were released. Those who you could not release because of the viciousness of their crimes would become a permanent labour class. And once a prisoner was released, his crime would be FORGOTTEN, and he would be free to pursue that which he was trained to do. If a prisoner's crime needed to be remembered, that means he probably should never be released.

So the ideal state is South Korea, followed by Finland and the US. Amazing.

Oddly, I have heard the first two mentioned before, but why do you mention them in connection with what I wrote? And why the USA? We don't come anywhere close to what I wrote!

[Rushy]

Oddly, I have heard the first two mentioned before, but why do you mention them in connection with what I wrote? And why the USA? We don't come anywhere close to what I wrote!

You mentioned education, so I of course measured the highest form of education (college) and how many obtain that education. I like how you once again complain about something but then don't actually say what's wrong.