[AATW]

now you're asking me to produce a FE map because if there's no FE map apparently the Earth must be a globe - said the globe cult member.

The earth must be a globe because of geometry. If the earth were flat then it wouldn’t be that difficult to create an accurate map of the whole earth which correctly shows the distances between landmasses and between cities on landmasses. Maps are flat, if the earth is flat too then the only issue is scale. Why does no such map exist? I’d suggest the answer is that it’s not possible to make one. And the reason it’s not possible is that maps are flat but the earth isn’t. So any map of the whole earth has to use some kind of projection which distorts things. Because of geometry.

[Pete Svarrior]

Maps are flat, if the earth is flat too then the only issue is scale.

Incorrect.

[SteelyBob]

Incorrect.

Unsubstantiated.

[AATW]

Maps are flat, if the earth is flat too then the only issue is scale.

Incorrect.

How so?

[Pete Svarrior]

How so?

You assume our universe is Euclidean. If it is, both RE and FE are fundamental impossibilities.

[Action80]

I believe the problem is people look at a flat map of the earth, such as Gleason's, believing the lines of longitude to be representative of a spherical earth feature, whereas I believe it to be the lines of longitude as projected from Polaris within the celestial sphere above onto the flat surface below.

[bindardundat]

As always, all the globe-earther has are assumptions that the Earth is a globe. And no tangible measurements of this whatsoever. Just fallacy after fallacy.

Hello again. On page 1 I asked you about this, but I haven't seen an answer. Here's my question:

Can I ask you about the bolded statement? When you say 'measurements', are you including surveys? AFAIK, every inch of the earth has been surveyed such that the size and shape of every land mass is known. Do you agree?

[Dual1ty]

I believe the problem is people look at a flat map of the earth, such as Gleason's, believing the lines of longitude to be representative of a spherical earth feature, whereas I believe it to be the lines of longitude as projected from Polaris within the celestial sphere above onto the flat surface below.

Of course - that is why I said that a globe map works when applied to celestial navigation, most of the time. With magnetism they need their declination construct to make it work. I now know that.

As you can see, the best the globe cult member has is to lie and claim that I said the opposite.

Globe is dead, now it's all about figuring out specifics and exploration. We already know that globe Earth = land plotted on the celestial sphere because celestial sphere dimensions = globe Earth dimensions, which was known (the dimensions of the celestial sphere) since at least ancient Egypt but is now hidden knowledge (if you say this on YouTube, YouTube deletes your comment, by the way). The globe is purely mathematical, it does not exist in reality other than in people's imagination and fake images.

It is so sad that we live in Dark Ages 2.0. But hey, it's all due to people's ignorance, stupidity and zealotry, so they deserve their imaginary globe Earth prison in my opinion.

[SteelyBob]

[
Of course - that is why I said that a globe map works when applied to celestial navigation, most of the time. With magnetism they need their declination construct to make it work. I now know that.

As you can see, the best the globe cult member has is to lie and claim that I said the opposite.

So now you’re saying (a) - the ship would get to its destination?

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=20105.msg281901#msg281901

[RonJ]

After being a trained navigator on both ships and aircraft, I have a few opinions to share.  Navigators always go according to true North.  This means relative to the geographic North Pole.  If you have a 15 degree magnetic declination (East or West) this just provides a correction factor so you can correct your true heading if you are going exclusively by your compass.  If you don't make a correction (East is least and West is best) you won't arrive at your intended destination.  I suppose you could jump thru a lot of hoops and figure out your course and just steer with your compass.  That could be difficult in rough weather because your compass will jump around and could easily swing back & forth 10 degrees or more.  You could be stuck trying to take a mental average that could be off by many degrees.  It's a lot easier to just use your gyro-compass.  Of course back in the sailing ship days they didn't have a gyro-compass but a lot of those ships ended up on the reef. 

[Dual1ty]

After being a trained navigator on both ships and aircraft, I have a few opinions to share.  Navigators always go according to true North.  This means relative to the geographic North Pole.  If you have a 15 degree magnetic declination (East or West) this just provides a correction factor so you can correct your true heading if you are going exclusively by your compass.  If you don't make a correction (East is least and West is best) you won't arrive at your intended destination.  I suppose you could jump thru a lot of hoops and figure out your course and just steer with your compass.  That could be difficult in rough weather because your compass will jump around and could easily swing back & forth 10 degrees or more.  You could be stuck trying to take a mental average that could be off by many degrees.  It's a lot easier to just use your gyro-compass.  Of course back in the sailing ship days they didn't have a gyro-compass but a lot of those ships ended up on the reef.

Is "gyrocompasses work due to Earth's rotation" your favorite assumption?

Unfortunately (for you), there is no proof of this, which is why it will forever remain an assumption that comes from further assuming that we live on a spinning ball (and again, no proof of this).

The claim is that gyrocompasses don't get affected by magnetism, but obviously that is not the case because gyrocompasses don't exist outside the magnetic field, and the current globe Earth's magnetic model comes from our beloved and trusted government institutions such as NASA (yes, you should absolutely trust them just like you were supposed to trust the Church back in the day).

[SteelyBob]

[
Is "gyrocompasses work due to Earth's rotation" your favorite assumption?

Unfortunately (for you), there is no proof of this, which is why it will forever remain an assumption that comes from further assuming that we live on a spinning ball (and again, no proof of this).

The claim is that gyrocompasses don't get affected by magnetism, but obviously that is not the case because gyrocompasses don't exist outside the magnetic field, and the current globe Earth's magnetic model comes from our beloved and trusted government institutions such as NASA (yes, you should absolutely trust them just like you were supposed to trust the Church back in the day).

If gyrocompasses secretly work via magnetism, how do they know how to point to true north instead of magnetic north?

[Dual1ty]

If gyrocompasses secretly work via magnetism, how do they know how to point to true north instead of magnetic north?

They don't, which is one of the (main) reasons that the Arctic is one of the most restricted areas on Earth.

[SteelyBob]

If gyrocompasses secretly work via magnetism, how do they know how to point to true north instead of magnetic north?

They don't, which is one of the (main) reasons that the Arctic is one of the most restricted areas on Earth.

That doesn’t follow. A gyrocompass indicates bearing with respect to true north. People who make and use gyrocompasses claim that they work by using the earth’s rotation to induce precession of the gyro inside the instrument, causing it to remain aligned with the earth’s axis of rotation, ie true north. You are claiming that something else, involving the earth’s magnetic field, is in fact at work.

But you also seem to be claiming that gyrocompasses don’t point to true north. You are invoking arctic secrecy to support that claim. That is, however, absurd. That gyrocompasses are based on true north is easily verified - ships navigators the world over know that headings from gyrocompasses are true, whereas as traditional compasses are magnetic. There is an obvious, verifiable difference, just like the difference between magnetic north where’ve you are and the heading to the North Star (if you’re in the northern hemisphere). That’s another one of those experiments you could do if you were really, genuinely curious about this stuff.

By the way, was it (a) or (b)? You don’t seem to have clarified your answer yet.

[Dual1ty]

If gyrocompasses secretly work via magnetism, how do they know how to point to true north instead of magnetic north?

They don't, which is one of the (main) reasons that the Arctic is one of the most restricted areas on Earth.

That doesn’t follow. A gyrocompass indicates bearing with respect to true north. People who make and use gyrocompasses claim that they work by using the earth’s rotation to induce precession of the gyro inside the instrument, causing it to remain aligned with the earth’s axis of rotation, ie true north. You are claiming that something else, involving the earth’s magnetic field, is in fact at work.

But you also seem to be claiming that gyrocompasses don’t point to true north. You are invoking arctic secrecy to support that claim. That is, however, absurd. That gyrocompasses are based on true north is easily verified - ships navigators the world over know that headings from gyrocompasses are true, whereas as traditional compasses are magnetic. There is an obvious, verifiable difference, just like the difference between magnetic north where’ve you are and the heading to the North Star (if you’re in the northern hemisphere). That’s another one of those experiments you could do if you were really, genuinely curious about this stuff.

By the way, was it (a) or (b)? You don’t seem to have clarified your answer yet.

Where's your experiment navigating from below the Arctic Circle to the North Pole using a gyrocompass only, friendo?

[DuncanDoenitz]

.......which is one of the (main) reasons that the Arctic is one of the most restricted areas on Earth.

You keep throwing this out there and expecting people to believe that it's true.  Can you provide any evidence whatever of some World-army or Secret Service keeping people out?  Under who's jurisdiction?  The (unspecified) "government"? 

Alternatively, I contend that "The Islet of Rockall is the Northern True Pole".  Its surrounded by ocean, there are no tourist visits, and I don't know anyone who's been there or even seen it.  Prove me wrong. 

[SteelyBob]

Where's your experiment navigating from below the Arctic Circle to the North Pole using a gyrocompass only, friendo?

You’re still afraid of publicly committing to either (a) or (b), aren’t you?

You’ll just keep throwing around irrelevant points that aren’t germane to the discussion. Let’s imaging, just for the sake of argument, that it was actually the case that it was impossible to go to the arctic -
there was a ring of tight security all around the 80th parallel and nobody could venture north.

You could still look at the pole star and compare its bearing with mag north. You could still sail on a ship with a gyrocompass and compare the headings with the locally published mag declination. You don’t need to go to the North Pole to verify any of this stuff - it’s much easier than that. You just need some curiosity.

[Dual1ty]

Where's your experiment navigating from below the Arctic Circle to the North Pole using a gyrocompass only, friendo?

You’re still afraid of publicly committing to either (a) or (b), aren’t you?

You’ll just keep throwing around irrelevant points that aren’t germane to the discussion. Let’s imaging, just for the sake of argument, that it was actually the case that it was impossible to go to the arctic -
there was a ring of tight security all around the 80th parallel and nobody could venture north.

You could still look at the pole star and compare its bearing with mag north. You could still sail on a ship with a gyrocompass and compare the headings with the locally published mag declination. You don’t need to go to the North Pole to verify any of this stuff - it’s much easier than that. You just need some curiosity.

WHERE'S YOUR GLOBE CULT'S EXPERIMENT NAVIGATING FROM BELOW THE ARCTIC CIRCLE TO THE NORTH POLE USING A GYROCOMPASS ONLY, I ASKED.

You will dance when and as I tell you.

[SteelyBob]

Where's your experiment navigating from below the Arctic Circle to the North Pole using a gyrocompass only, friendo?

You’re still afraid of publicly committing to either (a) or (b), aren’t you?

You’ll just keep throwing around irrelevant points that aren’t germane to the discussion. Let’s imaging, just for the sake of argument, that it was actually the case that it was impossible to go to the arctic -
there was a ring of tight security all around the 80th parallel and nobody could venture north.

You could still look at the pole star and compare its bearing with mag north. You could still sail on a ship with a gyrocompass and compare the headings with the locally published mag declination. You don’t need to go to the North Pole to verify any of this stuff - it’s much easier than that. You just need some curiosity.

WHERE'S YOUR GLOBE CULT'S EXPERIMENT NAVIGATING FROM BELOW THE ARCTIC CIRCLE TO THE NORTH POLE USING A GYROCOMPASS ONLY, I ASKED.

You will dance when and as I tell you.

What a strange thing to say.

There’s lots of accounts of ships sailing to the North Pole, and many will have used gyrocompasses to do so. I’ve already shown you examples of people getting to the magnetic North Pole, and you’ve ignored them or baked them into your conspiracy. The same will doubtless occur if I dig out examples of people travelling to the true North Pole.

You aren’t interested in anything I or anybody else says, and you have shown yourself to be incapable or unwilling to answer simple questions about your claims. It’s somewhat pointless continuing a discussion.

Although if you could confirm (a) or (b) that would be great. 

[Dual1ty]

What a strange thing to say.

There’s lots of accounts of ships sailing to the North Pole, and many will have used gyrocompasses to do so. I’ve already shown you examples of people getting to the magnetic North Pole, and you’ve ignored them or baked them into your conspiracy. The same will doubtless occur if I dig out examples of people travelling to the true North Pole.

You aren’t interested in anything I or anybody else says, and you have shown yourself to be incapable or unwilling to answer simple questions about your claims. It’s somewhat pointless continuing a discussion.

Although if you could confirm (a) or (b) that would be great. 

Nothing but the "politician approach". Rhetorical lying and the appearance of truthful statements while staying calm, when you're just spewing garbage left, right and center.