[SteelyBob]

You're missing the point, which is that exploration of the Arctic (Sea) is not allowed. Why? All expeditions to the Arctic (Sea) are small expeditions to specific points through predetermined routes, which are all approved by government beforehand. Meaning that there is no actual exploration of that area. I want to know what's here:

Supposedly it's just a bunch of ice there and water below the ice, but I don't buy it. Why has the ice been replaced with CGI water on Google Earth?

Whilst I entirely agree with Duncan, I don’t suppose we’re ever going to persuade you that people can and do visit the arctic, and it’s nothing like the mystery you are suggesting.

That’s why I’m sticking to basic stuff - I am genuinely interested in your views, hence asking whether you think the geographic and magnetic poles are colocated, which seems to be what you are saying.

I would also challenge you to look at openly available, widely corroborated data and see if it aligns with your views. You could start by choosing some points at the northern edges of countries in the far north. Check and see what the current magnetic declination is for those places, and use it to work out which way a compass would say is north at those places. Now plot that direction on a monopole FET map and ask if it makes more sense for the magnetic North Pole to be where I claimed it was, or where you are claiming it to be.

Now do the same in the south but look at which way magnetic south is - choose some places towards the southern end of countries in the southern hemisphere. The southern end of Argentina, for example, and South Africa. Do the same for south west and south east Australia, and also New Zealand.

Plot those arrows on your map and again, ask yourself if it makes more sense for there to be a continuous magnetic south all the way around the edge of the FE, or for the South Pole to in fact be where I suggested it was - ie just north of the Antarctic coast to the south of Australia. Try plotting the same arrows on a screenshot of Google earth, looking down on Antarctica and see what you think.

That’s easy, interesting research you could do if you are genuinely interested in conducting your own exploration into the truth.

[Dual1ty]

The expeditions are small because of the dangers from extreme weather, difficult (ice) terrain and presence of predators (unless that is also denied).  These expeditions are closely controlled so that visitors don't fall through the ice, get eaten by polar bears or succumb to the weather

How nice of them to care if a flat-earther gets eaten by a polar bear. The government really has our best interest at heart. It's... it's beautiful. :'(

Why is any of this a problem for a modern army in 2023 again? The armies are at the Arctic because of Putin or Trump or the Arctic Boogeyman, so they are not there to explore anything. When are they going to explore? Especially that area I highlighted? Below the ice?

Or just take a flight from Helsinki to Tokyo, and look out the window.

Nice coping mechanism.

[Dual1ty]

I would also challenge you to look at openly available, widely corroborated data and see if it aligns with your views. You could start by choosing some points at the northern edges of countries in the far north. Check and see what the current magnetic declination is for those places, and use it to work out which way a compass would say is north at those places. Now plot that direction on a monopole FET map and ask if it makes more sense for the magnetic North Pole to be where I claimed it was, or where you are claiming it to be.

Now do the same in the south but look at which way magnetic south is - choose some places towards the southern end of countries in the southern hemisphere. The southern end of Argentina, for example, and South Africa. Do the same for south west and south east Australia, and also New Zealand.

Plot those arrows on your map and again, ask yourself if it makes more sense for there to be a continuous magnetic south all the way around the edge of the FE, or for the South Pole to in fact be where I suggested it was - ie just north of the Antarctic coast to the south of Australia. Try plotting the same arrows on a screenshot of Google earth, looking down on Antarctica and see what you think.

That’s easy, interesting research you could do if you are genuinely interested in conducting your own exploration into the truth.

There's no point to any of that if you're only ever measuring a local magnetic flux, like you admitted. In order to know the origin of the field you need to go to the Arctic to check and you're not allowed, supposedly because the government is really concerned about polar bears and weather. You just have to believe that the magnetic poles are where they tell you (which again, they never tell you their exact current locations) and never question the mainstream magnetic field model of the globe Earth.

[SteelyBob]

There's no point to any of that if you're only ever measuring a local magnetic flux, like you admitted. In order to know the origin of the field you need to go to the Arctic to check and you're not allowed, supposedly because the government is really concerned about polar bears and weather. You just have to believe that the magnetic poles are where they tell you and never question the mainstream magnetic field model.

This is all kinds of muddled. The magnetic North Pole is in Canadian territory (although it won't be for long, as it's heading to Russia). There is nothing legislating against you going there yourself, although it's not for the faint-hearted...unless you take a cruise ship. Heck, this one even takes in both poles, ice permitting. https://uk.ponant.com/the-arctic-transarctic-the-quest-for-the-two-north-poles-cc060924-11

But you don't even have to do that - the simple desktop exercise I proposed would give you a very strong clue that the poles are indeed where they are claimed to be. Yes, you are only assessing the local flux lines and so, yes, I suppose it could take a massive turn somewhere between the locations in question and the pole, but that is highly unlikely, and if you draw the extended flux lines from each position you'll see that for the pole to not be where it is claimed to be there would have to be a very improbably change in direction for all of the flux lines. Just try it, and you'll see what I mean. Moreover, it wouldn't even fit the described patterns in the video that you yourself cited.

Likewise, in the Southern Hemisphere, you'll see that it simply doesn't add up for there to be a ring shaped, uniform South Pole - why aren't the various flux lines all heading that way then? Why are they all pointing to the point I described when you plot them on a globe?

[Dual1ty]

This is all kinds of muddled. The magnetic North Pole is in Canadian territory (although it won't be for long, as it's heading to Russia). There is nothing legislating against you going there yourself, although it's not for the faint-hearted...unless you take a cruise ship. Heck, this one even takes in both poles, ice permitting. https://uk.ponant.com/the-arctic-transarctic-the-quest-for-the-two-north-poles-cc060924-11

Another big joke...



If the magnetic NP is in Canadian territory as you believe, what is it doing there??

Why do you not bother reading/looking at the things you link??

Likewise, in the Southern Hemisphere, you'll see that it simply doesn't add up for there to be a ring shaped, uniform South Pole - why aren't the various flux lines all heading that way then? Why are they all pointing to the point I described when you plot them on a globe?

Pretty obvious that is BS. All modeled from the assumption that Earth is a globe. Calculated from other data and modeled in a computer. It is not reality. More cartoon nonsense from the globe cult.

[SteelyBob]

Another big joke...



If the magnetic NP is in Canadian teritory as you believe, what is it doing there??

A fair question - that's further over that most other sources I've seen - I was under the impression it was still in Canadian territory, but I could be out of date. It's a really interesting subject - the pace of movement in recent years is unusually high.

Why do you not bother reading/looking at the things you link??

Likewise, in the Southern Hemisphere, you'll see that it simply doesn't add up for there to be a ring shaped, uniform South Pole - why aren't the various flux lines all heading that way then? Why are they all pointing to the point I described when you plot them on a globe?

Pretty obvious that is BS. All modeled from the assumption that Earth is a globe. Calculated from other data and modeled in a computer. It is not reality. More cartoon nonsense from the globe cult.

But that's my point - if you don't trust the data, why not do some research yourself with much more verifiable information? The declination is a widely used parameter - it's still essential for safe navigation, and is published for all airports, for example. Here's Invercargill, in southerly New Zealand, with an approach chart showing a declination of 26 degrees East in June 2021 (see the top left), which is entirely in agreement with the global map shown in wikipedia, for example. https://www.aip.net.nz/assets/AIP/Aerodrome-Charts/Invercargill-NZNV/NZNV_32.1_33.1.pdf

Why so much declination in New Zealand? Why wouldn't a compass needle just point true south, towards the ring-shaped magnet that you propose? Try the same exercise in South Western Australia and it's the other direction - why? Funny how they both point at the same place that is generally agreed to be the magnetic South Pole.

You're immediately rejecting stuff as 'obviously BS', but you haven't done basic stuff that you could easily do with reliable, verifiable open source data. Data that clearly shows that the situation is not as your man in the videos portrays it to be. That should at least get you thinking that maybe things aren't as you thought they might be.

[DuncanDoenitz]

How nice of them to care if a flat-earther gets eaten by a polar bear. The government really has our best interest at heart. It's... it's beautiful. :'(

Why is any of this a problem for a modern army in 2023 again? The armies are at the Arctic because of Putin or Trump or the Arctic Boogeyman, so they are not there to explore anything. When are they going to explore? Especially that area I highlighted? Below the ice?

Or just take a flight from Helsinki to Tokyo, and look out the window.

Nice coping mechanism.

I'm sorry, I should have been clearer.  Tours, anywhere, are supervised by tour guides.  Been to Israel?  Or Whalewatching?  Or Yosemite?  Or Chornobyl?  Tour guides gather together a group of tourist, make sure they are suitably attired, equipped and have appropriate mobility and fitness.  They count the tourists, shove them on suitable transport, explain what they are looking at, and try to stop them wandering off into the West Bank, over a cliff, fall out of the boat or whatever.  Then they take the tourists back to the hotel and count them again.  In the arctic they make sure you don't freeze to death, fall down a crevace, or suffer the polar bear thing.  Tour guides. 

Not "the government".  Not an army. 

Tour guides. 

And I'm sorry, I don't see your problem with aircraft windows. 

[DuncanDoenitz]

That's an interesting map of the Magnetic Pole btw.  Seems to be illustrating a journey across the arctic via Seattle, Nome, Spitzbergen and Paris.  Do you have a source? 

You may also find this interesting;

The first team of novices to reach the magnetic north pole did so in 1996, led by David Hempleman-Adams. It included the first British woman Sue Stockdale and first Swedish woman to reach the Pole.[20][21][22] The team also successfully tracked the location of the Magnetic North Pole on behalf of the University of Ottawa, and certified its location by magnetometer and theodolite at 78°35′42″N 104°11′54″W.[23][24]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_magnetic_pole#:~:text=The%20north%20magnetic%20pole%20moves,N%20110%C2%B048%E2%80%B2W.

Does that count as exploration?  That was on behalf of the University of Ottawa.  Not the "government".  Ottawa. 

[SteelyBob]

That's an interesting map of the Magnetic Pole btw.  Seems to be illustrating a journey across the arctic via Seattle, Nome, Spitzbergen and Paris.  Do you have a source? 

You may also find this interesting;

The first team of novices to reach the magnetic north pole did so in 1996, led by David Hempleman-Adams. It included the first British woman Sue Stockdale and first Swedish woman to reach the Pole.[20][21][22] The team also successfully tracked the location of the Magnetic North Pole on behalf of the University of Ottawa, and certified its location by magnetometer and theodolite at 78°35′42″N 104°11′54″W.[23][24]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_magnetic_pole#:~:text=The%20north%20magnetic%20pole%20moves,N%20110%C2%B048%E2%80%B2W.

Does that count as exploration?  That was on behalf of the University of Ottawa.  Not the "government".  Ottawa.

I tried that angle earlier in this thread (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=20105.msg281834#msg281834) - all dismissed and baked into the conspiracy.

I think I worked out why the mag pole is shown where it is on that tour map - it’s because the cruise is set for September next year, so that’s a forecast position.

[Dual1ty]

I think I worked out why the mag pole is shown where it is on that tour map - it’s because the cruise is set for September next year, so that’s a forecast position.

It's only 60k USD for a ticket. And probably zero chance to conduct magnetic research. They could even have a magnet submerged at that spot for all anyone knows.

What a bargain for a flat-earther like me.

[SteelyBob]

It's only 60k USD for a ticket. And probably zero chance to conduct magnetic research. They could even have a magnet submerged at that spot for all anyone knows.

What a bargain for a flat-earther like me.

If you don’t want to go, then I refer you to my previous post - there’s plenty you could do at home that would further your knowledge on this, instead of just rejecting stuff as ‘BS’ because you don’t understand it / it disagrees with your views.

[Dual1ty]

It's only 60k USD for a ticket. And probably zero chance to conduct magnetic research. They could even have a magnet submerged at that spot for all anyone knows.

What a bargain for a flat-earther like me.

If you don’t want to go, then I refer you to my previous post - there’s plenty you could do at home that would further your knowledge on this, instead of just rejecting stuff as ‘BS’ because you don’t understand it / it disagrees with your views.

If that's what you're supposed to be doing, how come you thought that the current magnetic declination/inclination agreed with your Canadian magnetic NP? This means that you just assumed it was so.

And now you're making it up saying that the magnetic NP is going to be at that spot in September while citing exactly zero sources or research.

[SteelyBob]

If that's what you're supposed to be doing, how come you thought that the current magnetic declination/inclination agreed with your Canadian magnetic NP? This means that you just assumed it was so.

And now you're making it up saying that the magnetic NP is going to be at that spot in September while citing exactly zero sources or research.

If you aren’t interested, that’s fine. You claimed to have done a lot of research, so I thought you might be open minded enough to try something new. You aren’t, and that’s ok with me. Shame though.

[Dual1ty]

If that's what you're supposed to be doing, how come you thought that the current magnetic declination/inclination agreed with your Canadian magnetic NP? This means that you just assumed it was so.

And now you're making it up saying that the magnetic NP is going to be at that spot in September while citing exactly zero sources or research.

If you aren’t interested, that’s fine. You claimed to have done a lot of research, so I thought you might be open minded enough to try something new. You aren’t, and that’s ok with me. Shame though.

Quote me saying that I have done "a lot of research" about this particular subject. Lie.

I have done enough research to know that it's not a globe, though. And I am 100% certain that it's not a globe - precisely because I was open minded enough to do the research.

[SteelyBob]

Quote me saying that I have done "a lot of research" about this particular subject. Lie.

I have done enough research to know that it's not a globe, though. And I am 100% certain that it's not a globe - precisely because I was open minded enough to do the research.

Very happy to agree that you haven’t done a lot of research, if you’d prefer?

[Dual1ty]

Quote me saying that I have done "a lot of research" about this particular subject. Lie.

I have done enough research to know that it's not a globe, though. And I am 100% certain that it's not a globe - precisely because I was open minded enough to do the research.

Very happy to agree that you haven’t done a lot of research, if you’d prefer?

There's a lot of stuff I haven't done a lot of research into - I'm always learning new things about our amazing reality. But like I said, I have done enough research to know that it's not a globe, which was the important thing for me (knowing for sure). Which is also why I don't really do much research anymore. Now I focus mainly on money, exercise and life goals.

I can only have dreams now of full exploration of our realm, which would reveal a lot. Meanwhile, people like you think it's all figured out and there's nothing to explore except the depths of oceans and imaginary space balls, and maybe a couple of islands. It's very uninspiring (except the oceans part, which is still pretty cool).

[SteelyBob]

I'm always learning new things about our amazing reality.

So why the complete failure to engage on any of my suggestions or questions? Wouldn’t you like to learn more? Are you open or closed minded?

[Dual1ty]

I'm always learning new things about our amazing reality.

So why the complete failure to engage on any of my suggestions or questions? Wouldn’t you like to learn more? Are you open or closed minded?

My friend, you look at a .gov graph that shows you some plotted data that agrees with the globe model and you take it as 100% truth... I have nothing to say to you about being open-minded. You obviously have no clue what that is.

[SteelyBob]

I'm always learning new things about our amazing reality.

So why the complete failure to engage on any of my suggestions or questions? Wouldn’t you like to learn more? Are you open or closed minded?

My friend, you look at a .gov graph that shows you some plotted data that agrees with the globe model and you take it as 100% truth... I have nothing to say to you about being open-minded. You obviously have no clue what that is.

No. I’ve offered you data that is far more verifiable than just .gov stuff, such as mag declination data from an active airfield - you’ve completely ignored it.

[Dual1ty]

I'm always learning new things about our amazing reality.

So why the complete failure to engage on any of my suggestions or questions? Wouldn’t you like to learn more? Are you open or closed minded?

My friend, you look at a .gov graph that shows you some plotted data that agrees with the globe model and you take it as 100% truth... I have nothing to say to you about being open-minded. You obviously have no clue what that is.

No. I’ve offered you data that is far more verifiable than just .gov stuff, such as mag declination data from an active airfield - you’ve completely ignored it.

Yeah, but I don't have a model to defend unlike you.

It's very funny that you said white board dude is "my man", when I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw him. I only posted that for discussion, but instead you attack some white board descriptions. Whatever makes you happy.