Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #120 on: July 18, 2019, 09:37:03 PM »
Great on the English lesson. But the problem is without me doing that you still don’t get it. I’m afraid you never will.


Oh no. I understand you. I just disagree. This is where we are different.  You don't understand the point that both Pete and I have made.

Half of me thinks you’re just playing a game. And that’s fine. Carry on.

All of me thinks that you are playing a game. You have done things like demanding arbitrary lines be drawn on static images, looking at an image or map and saying the earth is round based on assumptions, repeated "DOES NOT COUNT" claims,  refusing to answer a simple yes or no question, and making erroneous grammar corrections.

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Offline kopfverderber

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #121 on: July 18, 2019, 10:18:13 PM »
I'm not a native English speaker. English is actually my third language by order of daily usage, so I will not try to correct anyone's grammar. After reading through the post and making several contributions (which btw went largely ignored), I think both of you iamcpc and stack are reasonable persons yet you are not able to reach an agreement on a simple matter.

The thread title is asking how to make a FE map. Iamcpc considers the bing map already a valid FE map, so there's no need to make one. On the other hand, Stack and I do not think the bing map is a FE map.  To me the reason of the mutual misunderstanding is that each of us has a different idea of what "FE Map" means, and this could be a language problem.

FE Map stand for Flat Earth Map. That's an adjective (flat) and two nouns (earth and map). When we say this in English, it's not clear if the adjective Flat is referring to the noun Earth, the noun Map or both. So I'll rephrase it in the hope that it will become clearer:

What is a "FE Map"to you?
a) Flat map of the earth
b) Map of the flat earth
c) Flat map of the flat earth

To me a FE Map is b) Map of the flat earth
The bing map is a) flat map of the earth, and more specifically a "flat map of the round earth".

I also think this confusion would't exists in other languages.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 10:20:43 PM by kopfverderber »
"What giants?" said Sancho Panza.

"Those thou seest there," answered his master, "with the long arms, and some have them nearly two leagues long."

"Look, your worship," said Sancho; "what we see there are not giants but windmills, and what seem to be their arms are the sails that turned by the wind make the millstone go."

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #122 on: July 18, 2019, 10:21:25 PM »
by literal definition they aren't 'flat earth' maps.
That's not true. By definition, they are projections of the Earth. You (and possibly the authors of some maps, notably excluding the "azimuthal equidistant projection") assume that the original shape of the Earth is your favourite shape.

Saying that the Earth is round because it is round is not gonna help us here.

I’m not sure I’m following. Are you saying that google, for example, is assuming that earth is a globe and therefore they use a globe projection for their maps?

If so, which is actually a fair statement, I think that is different than what iam has been trying to convey.

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #123 on: July 18, 2019, 11:59:32 PM »
Great on the English lesson. But the problem is without me doing that you still don’t get it. I’m afraid you never will.

Oh no. I understand you. I just disagree. This is where we are different.  You don't understand the point that both Pete and I have made.

I could be wrong, but I don't think you and Pete are actually saying the same thing. Feel free to correct my thinking.

Half of me thinks you’re just playing a game. And that’s fine. Carry on.

All of me thinks that you are playing a game. You have done things like demanding arbitrary lines be drawn on static images, looking at an image or map and saying the earth is round based on assumptions, repeated "DOES NOT COUNT" claims,  refusing to answer a simple yes or no question, and making erroneous grammar corrections.

No one has demanded anything from you. Unless you possess a distinct absence of free will and self control, it's entirely up to you how you would like to engage and participate.

A yes or no answer sometimes requires that the terms and intent of the question are understood by both parties. For instance:

Have you stopped beating your wife? A simple yes or no is required.


Offline ChrisTP

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #124 on: July 19, 2019, 12:42:11 PM »
by literal definition they aren't 'flat earth' maps.
That's not true. By definition, they are projections of the Earth. You (and possibly the authors of some maps, notably excluding the "azimuthal equidistant projection") assume that the original shape of the Earth is your favourite shape.

Saying that the Earth is round because it is round is not gonna help us here.
For sure they are projections of the earth, but by some strange coincidence it matches a spheroid shape pretty darn well and doesn't match a flat shape very well at all. I'll put my bets on the projections being from some kind of globe rather than some kind of flat shape any day. I'm not simply saying it's round because it's round, I'm saying it's observably not flat if we're basing it on the Bing map. That and the Bing map is well documented as not flat. If the authors of the map got that wrong then why on earth would anyone trust them document or map out a flat earth anyway? If I were mapping out the world under the assumption that it's flat I wouldn't start by using a map that doesn't fit the assumed shape.

You only need to go to Greenland and Africa to know for sure if they're the same size, both places that are perfectly accessible. If anyone can prove they're roughly the same size in real life then I will by all means admit that Bing is plausibly a flat earth map.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #125 on: July 19, 2019, 02:53:29 PM »
This thread has all but derailed to a discussion of semantics.

To get back on track, here's my thought on step one:

Start from scratch.  Don't use any existing map, flat or round, to make a FE map. 

As is stated repeatedly by the FE community, a FE map does not exist.
So, using what you believe is "the most accurate" map won't do you any good.

Obviously, this is something that would need to be done by people with resources at their disposal.  At the very least, I would think you would need:

A camera
Rangefinder
A means of getting really high in the sky to take photos
Software to stitch those photos together
A log book
Quote from: Tom Bishop
...circles do not exist and pi is not 3.14159...

Quote from: totallackey
Do you have any evidence of reality?

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Offline kopfverderber

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #126 on: July 20, 2019, 10:51:04 PM »
I have the impression the FE community is happy with the maps they already have and there is a lack of interest in making new ones. I'll admit the disc map with the north pole in the center looks pretty.



"What giants?" said Sancho Panza.

"Those thou seest there," answered his master, "with the long arms, and some have them nearly two leagues long."

"Look, your worship," said Sancho; "what we see there are not giants but windmills, and what seem to be their arms are the sails that turned by the wind make the millstone go."

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #127 on: July 22, 2019, 05:40:35 AM »
This thread has all but derailed to a discussion of semantics.

To get back on track, here's my thought on step one:

Start from scratch.  Don't use any existing map, flat or round, to make a FE map. 

As is stated repeatedly by the FE community, a FE map does not exist.

Many members of the FE community believe that there is a map. Many claim there is no map but use a map to accurately navigate the earth on a day to day basis.



I have the impression the FE community is happy with the maps they already have and there is a lack of interest in making new ones. I'll admit the disc map with the north pole in the center looks pretty.

I have the impression the FE community largely disagrees on the map.

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #128 on: July 22, 2019, 09:17:26 PM »
This thread has all but derailed to a discussion of semantics.

To get back on track, here's my thought on step one:

Start from scratch.  Don't use any existing map, flat or round, to make a FE map. 

As is stated repeatedly by the FE community, a FE map does not exist.

Many members of the FE community believe that there is a map. Many claim there is no map but use a map to accurately navigate the earth on a day to day basis.



I have the impression the FE community is happy with the maps they already have and there is a lack of interest in making new ones. I'll admit the disc map with the north pole in the center looks pretty.

I have the impression the FE community largely disagrees on the map.

Right, and for all intents and purposes, the point of this thread was to 'maybe' come up with a way to create The Flat Earth map that represents The Flat Earth and also represents reality. And that starting assumption is that there is no The Flat Earth map. Whether true or false, that is the starting assumption. So, given that, how might one start to measure an area of land from a flat earth perspective. Can we use existing spherical measurements from Geodesy and flatten them out? I don't know. Do we have to march across land and physically survey from a flat earth perspective? I don't know. These are the questions. 

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2019, 09:18:58 PM »
Right, and for all intents and purposes, the point of this thread was to 'maybe' come up with a way to create The Flat Earth map that represents The Flat Earth and also represents reality. And that starting assumption is that there is no The Flat Earth map. Whether true or false, that is the starting assumption. So, given that, how might one start to measure an area of land from a flat earth perspective. Can we use existing spherical measurements from Geodesy and flatten them out? I don't know. Do we have to march across land and physically survey from a flat earth perspective? I don't know. These are the questions.


The problem comes with the many different flat earth models. They can't all be right. I still think that a good starting point, before even discussing measurements, is to all unanimously agree on basic things like Mexico sharing a border with the United States and Canada being in North America.

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #130 on: July 24, 2019, 12:40:56 AM »
Right, and for all intents and purposes, the point of this thread was to 'maybe' come up with a way to create The Flat Earth map that represents The Flat Earth and also represents reality. And that starting assumption is that there is no The Flat Earth map. Whether true or false, that is the starting assumption. So, given that, how might one start to measure an area of land from a flat earth perspective. Can we use existing spherical measurements from Geodesy and flatten them out? I don't know. Do we have to march across land and physically survey from a flat earth perspective? I don't know. These are the questions.


The problem comes with the many different flat earth models. They can't all be right. I still think that a good starting point, before even discussing measurements, is to all unanimously agree on basic things like Mexico sharing a border with the United States and Canada being in North America.

Agreed on the problem of the different models. I think there is a general consensus of, let's say, what countries border each other. The problem comes with the models, as in maybe how the continents are laid out. Each FE model solves 1 problem and then creates 5 others in it's wake. It's pretty much why all others have failed in coming up with an FE map. I was checking out some Globebusters stuff last night. A year or two ago they were on about a kind of 3 pole model. Even they abandoned the whole effort. There's the 2 pole Lambert FE model, but that gets ruined by real world observations of the Sun. Then of course we all know the problems with the AE model.

I just don't know how one even begins.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #131 on: July 25, 2019, 04:28:19 PM »
think there is a general consensus of, let's say, what countries border each other.

I disagree. On the other forums someone was making a map of the earth only based on Northern Hemisphere flights. I would not agree with his continental configuration.

There were also several members who adhered to a more biblical flat disk model where Jerusalem was a the center of the flat disk which was at the center of the universe.  I would not agree with their continental configurations.

Furthermore there is this great ice wall thing. Does it exist? In my FE model it does not exist. Some models it does not, and some models the ice wall is an unknown.

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #132 on: July 25, 2019, 05:48:44 PM »
think there is a general consensus of, let's say, what countries border each other.

I disagree. On the other forums someone was making a map of the earth only based on Northern Hemisphere flights. I would not agree with his continental configuration.

There were also several members who adhered to a more biblical flat disk model where Jerusalem was a the center of the flat disk which was at the center of the universe.  I would not agree with their continental configurations.

Furthermore there is this great ice wall thing. Does it exist? In my FE model it does not exist. Some models it does not, and some models the ice wall is an unknown.

Yes, but none of them work, they are not accurate and suffer all the same problems that creating an accurate flat earth map tries to solve.

I'm painfully aware of the flight time map. It's north pole centered. It doesn't account for taxiing or delays. The criteria for a flight to be valid is vague at best. For instance if a flight doesn't fit on the model, no matter the evidence for the flight existing, it is discarded as being fake. Which is, well, backwards at best.

Ice wall doesn't really matter. Other than the fact that in some cases Antarctica exists as we know it and in other cases Antarctica is the icewall. But that's not so much of a burning issue.

I don't know much about the Jerusalem centered map, but I assume it just centers on the city instead of the north pole and runs into all of the same problems as the AE map does.

I say that most have the countries next to the right countries continent-ally speaking because if you lift any of the continents up and off of, let's say the AE map and just laid them down again, their forms are somewhat correct:


Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #133 on: July 26, 2019, 07:44:34 PM »
Yes, but none of them work, they are not accurate and suffer all the same problems that creating an accurate flat earth map tries to solve.

The one that works the best is the bing map model

Ice wall doesn't really matter. Other than the fact that in some cases Antarctica exists as we know it and in other cases Antarctica is the icewall. But that's not so much of a burning issue.

Yes it does. I define south as the direction you must travel to reach the south pole. The ice wall models don't have a South pole therefore don't have South. I can't accept a map which does not have South.
I don't know much about the Jerusalem centered map, but I assume it just centers on the city instead of the north pole and runs into all of the same problems as the AE map does.


I say that most have the countries next to the right countries continent-ally speaking because if you lift any of the continents up and off of, let's say the AE map and just laid them down again, their forms are somewhat correct:



The map must be interactive. It can't be a static image just like a Globe can't be a static image. It MUST be interactive.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #134 on: July 26, 2019, 09:46:08 PM »
Yes, but none of them work, they are not accurate and suffer all the same problems that creating an accurate flat earth map tries to solve.

The one that works the best is the bing map model

Ice wall doesn't really matter. Other than the fact that in some cases Antarctica exists as we know it and in other cases Antarctica is the icewall. But that's not so much of a burning issue.

Yes it does. I define south as the direction you must travel to reach the south pole. The ice wall models don't have a South pole therefore don't have South. I can't accept a map which does not have South.
I don't know much about the Jerusalem centered map, but I assume it just centers on the city instead of the north pole and runs into all of the same problems as the AE map does.


I say that most have the countries next to the right countries continent-ally speaking because if you lift any of the continents up and off of, let's say the AE map and just laid them down again, their forms are somewhat correct:



The map must be interactive. It can't be a static image just like a Globe can't be a static image. It MUST be interactive.
No, one way to look at this is we have physical globes in classrooms that are not interactive and the image on those spheroids does not change. Can you have a physical flat map that is unchanging and accurate? If your answer is no (which it seemingly is) then obviously your flat map is not physically, accurately matching the real world.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #135 on: July 26, 2019, 09:47:55 PM »
Yes, but none of them work, they are not accurate and suffer all the same problems that creating an accurate flat earth map tries to solve.

The one that works the best is the bing map model

So from way, way up in space, theoretically, would the Bing flat earth look like this:


Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #136 on: July 27, 2019, 08:31:58 AM »

So from way, way up in space, theoretically, would the Bing flat earth look like this:



No. That is a static interactive image which is not representative of how, I believe, our Earth functions. Our Earth is interactive and therefore can only be mapped using some sort of interactive map.

In the RE model it's called a globe which is interactive and spins.

In this specific FE model the map is very similar to Bing maps.

In addition I would stop focusing so much on what image we think our visual cortex would make in our brains. Our ability to perceive things with our eyes is VERY VERY limited and our visual cortex is easily fooled into creating images that do not match reality whatsoever.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 08:34:17 AM by iamcpc »

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #137 on: July 27, 2019, 09:08:49 AM »

So from way, way up in space, theoretically, would the Bing flat earth look like this:



No. That is a static interactive image which is not representative of how, I believe, our Earth functions. Our Earth is interactive and therefore can only be mapped using some sort of interactive map.

In the RE model it's called a globe which is interactive and spins.

In this specific FE model the map is very similar to Bing maps.

Then see ChrisTP's comment. The rope I've thrown is too short to reach you at the bottom of the hole.

In addition I would stop focusing so much on what image we think our visual cortex would make in our brains. Our ability to perceive things with our eyes is VERY VERY limited and our visual cortex is easily fooled into creating images that do not match reality whatsoever.

That's pretty much all I got; my senses and my brain. And sure, our visual cortex is easily fooled into creating images that do not match reality whatsoever. Yet equally extremely adept at creating images that have pinpoint accuracy when it comes to reality. So don't throw your eyeballs out with the bathwater.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #138 on: July 27, 2019, 07:03:20 PM »
Then see ChrisTP's comment. The rope I've thrown is too short to reach you at the bottom of the hole.

ok





No, one way to look at this is we have physical globes in classrooms that are not interactive and the image on those spheroids does not change. Can you have a physical flat map that is unchanging and accurate? If your answer is no (which it seemingly is) then obviously your flat map is not physically, accurately matching the real world.

Globes are interactive. I look at one and I see one side of the globe. Then I can interact with the globe to see the other side of it.

You can't have a physical globe that is unchanging and accurate. In the RE model a globe becomes accurate because you can interact with it.

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #139 on: July 27, 2019, 11:43:34 PM »
Then see ChrisTP's comment. The rope I've thrown is too short to reach you at the bottom of the hole.

ok

No, one way to look at this is we have physical globes in classrooms that are not interactive and the image on those spheroids does not change. Can you have a physical flat map that is unchanging and accurate? If your answer is no (which it seemingly is) then obviously your flat map is not physically, accurately matching the real world.

Globes are interactive. I look at one and I see one side of the globe. Then I can interact with the globe to see the other side of it.

You can't have a physical globe that is unchanging and accurate. In the RE model a globe becomes accurate because you can interact with it.

Sure, globes are 'interactive', but they are kind of cumbersome, hard to draw on when plotting a course and just don't have the portability that a 2D map has. That's why "projections" from a globe on to a 2D surface were created. Mercator came up with his method by lighting the inside of a globe and projecting the landmasses out onto a roll of paper.



The Bing map is a simply a Mercator projection from a globe, regardless of whether it's 'interactive' by zooming and such. It was still born of a globe, right or wrongly so assuming a globe, but decidedly not from a Flat Earth.