[iamcpc]

I'm not following. It's lame for Microsoft to state that their Bing Map system is based upon a spherical Earth; with a spherical Earth coordinate system and spherical Earth measurements/distances?

Stack,

you refused to answer a simple yes or no question. so I will refuse to answer your question.

iamcpc stop focusing on people telling you globe maps don't count as flat earth maps

It's hard to do when that has literally been 90% of this thread

and concentrate on why people are telling you globe maps don't count as flat earth maps. you can disagree all you want but they're still globe maps, so by literal definition they aren't 'flat earth' maps.

so stop focusing on why other people say "DOES NOT COUNT" and start focusing on why it "DOES NOT COUNT"

The whole premise of "DOES NOT COUNT" is super lame when used in a discussion. I can claim that about anything for literally any reason

but you propose an alternative flat earth model where you can travel in a straight line and arrive at the starting point. In your model the earth is on an finite plane with no borders.  So we humans are confined to this finite plane that we cannot leave. Is that correct?

no. I believe that we can and have left this planet and that we have landed on the moon.

If we would be able to fly high enough would we also reach what is under our feet?

I don't think so.

[stack]

I'm not following. It's lame for Microsoft to state that their Bing Map system is based upon a spherical Earth; with a spherical Earth coordinate system and spherical Earth measurements/distances?

Stack,

you refused to answer a simple yes or no question. so I will refuse to answer your question.

How very adult of you.

It's not a yes or no question. Here's a dialogue I made up as an example:

Question, it appears that according to many in the FE community there isn't an accurate, usable FE map. How should we go about actually making one?

Flat Earther: There is an FE map. It's called Bing Map. It's flat and I can zoom in and out of it.

Globe Earther: Actually, according to Microsoft and their documentation their Bing Map system is based upon a spherical Earth; with a spherical Earth coordinate system and spherical Earth measurements/distances.

Flat Earther: What are you saying, that the Bing Map DOES NOT COUNT as an FE map?!?!

Globe Earther: I'm just saying that it would be weird and ironic for an FEr to say that Bing is an FE map when clearly Microsoft says it is not. I mean it is a 'flat' Earth map, as opposed to the 3D Globe it represents in 2D, but it's not a map of The Flat Earth. You know, that thing where people believe the earth is actually flat and not spherical...

Flat Earther: Well that's lame, you could say DOES NOT COUNT about anything!

Globe Earther: Well I suppose you could, but I'm not saying it, Microsoft is, about their own map system. And the entire purpose of the question, "How should we go about actually making one? (an FE Map)" is because apparently there is no Flat Earth map that anyone seems to know of that is either not at all accurate with reality or is not based upon a Globe Earth. If you know of a map that is both accurate with reality and is not based upon a Globe Earth, lay it on us. Job done.

[iamcpc]

How very adult of you.

About as adult as ignoring a simple yes or no question.

It's not a yes or no question.

This is, very clearly, a yes or no question:

Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because the map website says they are based on a globe projection?


Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

[stack]

How very adult of you.

About as adult as ignoring a simple yes or no question.

It's not a yes or no question.

This is, very clearly, a yes or no question:

Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because the map website says they are based on a globe projection?

Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

I want to be crystal clear here.
When you use 'FE', do you mean the royal FE? As in The Flat Earth, the belief that the earth is actually flat and not spherical?

Ex., Yes = Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps as they do not represent The Flat Earth, aka 'FE', which is defined as the earth being actually flat and not spherical.

[Bad Puppy]

How very adult of you.

About as adult as ignoring a simple yes or no question.

It's not a yes or no question.

This is, very clearly, a yes or no question:

Do the Bing maps, which represent the earth as a flat plane, not count as FE maps because the map website says they are based on a globe projection?


Yes =Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps
No = Bing maps do count as FE maps

Bing maps does NOT represent the earth as a flat plane.  It represents a globe that is projected onto a flat plane.  Do you see and understand the difference?

And, as stack said. In one word.  Yes.

[Bikini Polaris]

Before even starting to discuss distances which will be heavily disputed (with each individual accepting the distances which support their own model while rejecting distances which weaken their own model) why don't we just start with the continents and their locations. For example North America is North of South America. China and Russia are in Asia. Etc.

I do like iamcpc's approach. Maybe a more fruitful topic would be "How to make FEs come together and agree on some point of references for a map"? But for that I'd hope that FEs would really like to be a united community, even though I often find they prefer to point fingers at each other and split at atomic levels.

[kopfverderber]

@iamcpc

I understand you are providing a 2D map of earth with accurate distances, but your map has some glaring issues. Stack and other posters are pointing at these issues and it looks to me you are not providing valid explanations.

If the earth is flat we should be able draw a 2D map of the earth with a constant scale. However the scale of the Bing map you provided varies with latitude. For that reason it's difficult for other people to see how can  that map possibly represent a flat surface.

It's a question of basic geometry.

Let's try an experiment:

I will make the following three assumptions, please let me know if you agree with them:
1. A square is flat shape with four straight sides of equal length where every interior angle is a right angle. Would you agree to that definition?
2. The surface of the earth is flat or nearly flat. Would you agree to that?
3. If you travel describing a square on a flat surface you will end up arriving at the point from where you started after completing the square. Would you agree to that?

Now the experiment. I will travel a square with 7.000 km sides using real world distances and city positions:

1. I start at Belem (Brasil) and travel 7.000 km East, I arrive to Kinshasha (roughly).
2. Now I turn 90 degrees left and travel another 7.000 km, I arrive roughly to Stockolm
3. I turn left 90 degrees and travel 7.000 km, I arrive 500 km west of Anchorage in Alaska
4. I turn left 90 degrees  for the last time and travel another 7000 km, I'm now standing in the middle of the pacific ocean,  somewhere in Micronesia.

Do you agree that my route follows a square? If so could you please explain why my trip can't close the square at Belem?

[iamcpc]

I want to be crystal clear here.
When you use 'FE', do you mean the royal FE? As in The Flat Earth, the belief that the earth is actually flat and not spherical?

Ex., Yes = Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps as they do not represent The Flat Earth, aka 'FE', which is defined as the earth being actually flat and not spherical.

I'm so sorry. I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm just trying to figure out if you answer is a yes or a no?

Bing maps does NOT represent the earth as a flat plane.  It represents a globe that is projected onto a flat plane.  Do you see and understand the difference?

And, as stack said. In one word.  Yes.

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map then that flat plane map represents the earth as a flat plane. Isn't that the whole point?

[stack]

I want to be crystal clear here.
When you use 'FE', do you mean the royal FE? As in The Flat Earth, the belief that the earth is actually flat and not spherical?

Ex., Yes = Bing maps DO NOT COUNT as FE maps as they do not represent The Flat Earth, aka 'FE', which is defined as the earth being actually flat and not spherical.

I'm so sorry. I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm just trying to figure out if you answer is a yes or a no?

I can't answer your question without you answering my question first.

Bing maps does NOT represent the earth as a flat plane.  It represents a globe that is projected onto a flat plane.  Do you see and understand the difference?

And, as stack said. In one word.  Yes.

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map then that flat plane map represents the earth as a flat plane. Isn't that the whole point?

You're still shaving around the edges. The correct phrasing of the statement should be:

"If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the Globe earth as a flat map, maintaining a Globe Earth coordinate system and Globe Earth measurements/distances. It is not a map of The Flat Earth, the earth shape where some believe the physical shape of the Earth is flat, not spherical. It is a map of the Globe/Spherical earth that has been projected on to a flattened surface for ease of use and transport."

[iamcpc]

I can't answer your question without you answering my question first.

yes you can.

You're still shaving around the edges. The correct phrasing of the statement should be:

"If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the Globe earth as a flat map, maintaining a Globe Earth coordinate system and Globe Earth measurements/distances. It is not a map of The Flat Earth, the earth shape where some believe the physical shape of the Earth is flat, not spherical. It is a map of the Globe/Spherical earth that has been projected on to a flattened surface for ease of use and transport."

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the Globe earth as a flat map
If you project a sphere map Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the sphere map earth as a flat map
If you project a oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the oblate spheroid earth as a flat map
If you project a flat disk Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the flat disk earth as a flat map
If you project a egg Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the egg earth as a flat map
If you project a flat disk Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the flat disk earth as a flat map
If you project a convexly curved disk Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the convexly curved disk earth as a flat map

If you notice the shape of the earth does not matter. project the earth, of any shape, onto a flat map then the flat map represents the earth.

[kopfverderber]

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map then that flat plane map represents the earth as a flat plane. Isn't that the whole point?

Yes you can represent a sphere on a plane using different techniques, but the fact that an object is represented on a plane, doesn't make it a representation of a plane.

The map is a plane, that much is clear. But the map can't be representing a plane and a sphere at the same time. I think you are confusing two things: what the map IS geometrically (a plane) and what the map REPRESENTS (a sphere).

Let's go step by step:
1. IF you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map THEN the Flat plane map is  projection of a globe. Correct?
2. IF a flat plane map is a projection of a globe, THEN the flat plane map represents a globe in a plane. Correct?
3. IF the flat plane map represents a globe THEN the flat plane map does not represent a plane. Correct?

[iamcpc]

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map then that flat plane map represents the earth as a flat plane. Isn't that the whole point?

Yes you can represent a sphere on a plane using different techniques, but the fact that an object is represented on a plane, doesn't make it a representation of a plane.

The map is a plane, that much is clear. But the map can't be representing a plane and a sphere at the same time. I think you are confusing two things: what the map IS geometrically (a plane) and what the map REPRESENTS (a sphere).

Let's go step by step:
1. IF you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map THEN the Flat plane map is  projection of a globe. Correct?
2. IF a flat plane map is a projection of a globe, THEN the flat plane map represents a globe in a plane. Correct?
3. IF the flat plane map represents a globe THEN the flat plane map does not represent a plane. Correct?

If you project the Earth of any shape onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth (regardless of it's shape) as a flat plane. It's shape agnostic. Let me give you some examples:


If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.

[stack]

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map then that flat plane map represents the earth as a flat plane. Isn't that the whole point?

Yes you can represent a sphere on a plane using different techniques, but the fact that an object is represented on a plane, doesn't make it a representation of a plane.

The map is a plane, that much is clear. But the map can't be representing a plane and a sphere at the same time. I think you are confusing two things: what the map IS geometrically (a plane) and what the map REPRESENTS (a sphere).

Let's go step by step:
1. IF you project a Globe Earth onto a flat plane map THEN the Flat plane map is  projection of a globe. Correct?
2. IF a flat plane map is a projection of a globe, THEN the flat plane map represents a globe in a plane. Correct?
3. IF the flat plane map represents a globe THEN the flat plane map does not represent a plane. Correct?

If you project the Earth of any shape onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth (regardless of it's shape) as a flat plane. It's shape agnostic.

Incorrect and you are entirely, after all this time, completely missing the core of what a cartographic 'projection' is. Gerardus Mercator is spinning in his grave right now.

Let me give you some examples:

If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.

Fixed it for you:

If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Sphere Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the globe Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the spheroid Earth on a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the oblate spheroid Earth on a flat plane.

[kopfverderber]

If you project the Earth of any shape onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth (regardless of it's shape) as a flat plane. It's shape agnostic. Let me give you some examples:

If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Earth as a flat plane.

The point is not HOW you represent a figure: ''as a flat plane'' as you say
The point is WHAT does your map represent: a sphere, a globe, a spheroid, an oblate

Because the point is not HOW am I representing an object, the point WHAT is the object.

What does the Bing map represent? It represents a globe earth
How does the Bing map represent the earth? As a projection of a sphere on a plane

You seem to think (please correct if wrong) that a FE map is a map that represents the earth as a flat plane. That definition is not correct. A FE map is a map that represents an earth that is flat.  The Bing map is not representing an earth that is flat.

[Pete Svarrior]

by literal definition they aren't 'flat earth' maps.

That's not true. By definition, they are projections of the Earth. You (and possibly the authors of some maps, notably excluding the "azimuthal equidistant projection") assume that the original shape of the Earth is your favourite shape.

Saying that the Earth is round because it is round is not gonna help us here.

[iamcpc]

That's not true. By definition, they are projections of the Earth. You (and possibly the authors of some maps, notably excluding the "azimuthal equidistant projection") assume that the original shape of the Earth is your favourite shape.

Saying that the Earth is round because it is round is not gonna help us here.

I agree and this is the same point that i'm making. Even in the RE model there are like multiple shapes the earth could be such as a sphere, spheroid, oblate spheroid, globe etc.


People constantly look at something, such as a 2d map which is widely accepted as a map of the earth, and proudly proclaim EARTH IS A SPHERE! What about a spheroid? What about an oblate spheroid? What about some other shape?

Fixed it for you:

If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Sphere Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the globe Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the spheroid Earth on a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the oblate spheroid Earth on a flat plane.

You didn't fix anything. I had basically said the exact same thing here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15083.msg196532#msg196532

The shape of the earth is still moot.

If you project the earth (of any shape) onto a flat plane map then the flat plane map represents the earth (of any shape).

[inquisitive]

That's not true. By definition, they are projections of the Earth. You (and possibly the authors of some maps, notably excluding the "azimuthal equidistant projection") assume that the original shape of the Earth is your favourite shape.

Saying that the Earth is round because it is round is not gonna help us here.

I agree and this is the same point that i'm making. Even in the RE model there are like multiple shapes the earth could be such as a sphere, spheroid, oblate spheroid, globe etc.


People constantly look at something, such as a 2d map which is widely accepted as a map of the earth, and proudly proclaim EARTH IS A SPHERE! What about a spheroid? What about an oblate spheroid? What about some other shape?

Fixed it for you:

If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Sphere Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the globe Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the spheroid Earth on a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the oblate spheroid Earth on a flat plane.

You didn't fix anything. I had basically said the exact same thing here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15083.msg196532#msg196532

The shape of the earth is still moot.

If you project the earth (of any shape) onto a flat plane map then the flat plane map represents the earth (of any shape).

Do you consider the WGS-84 model to be incorrect?

[stack]

That's not true. By definition, they are projections of the Earth. You (and possibly the authors of some maps, notably excluding the "azimuthal equidistant projection") assume that the original shape of the Earth is your favourite shape.

Saying that the Earth is round because it is round is not gonna help us here.

I agree and this is the same point that i'm making. Even in the RE model there are like multiple shapes the earth could be such as a sphere, spheroid, oblate spheroid, globe etc.


People constantly look at something, such as a 2d map which is widely accepted as a map of the earth, and proudly proclaim EARTH IS A SPHERE! What about a spheroid? What about an oblate spheroid? What about some other shape?

Fixed it for you:

If you project a Sphere Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the Sphere Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a globe Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the globe Earth on a flat plane.
If you project a spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the spheroid Earth on a flat plane.
If you project an oblate spheroid Earth onto a flat plane map then the flat plane represents the oblate spheroid Earth on a flat plane.

You didn't fix anything. I had basically said the exact same thing here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=15083.msg196532#msg196532

The shape of the earth is still moot.

If you project the earth (of any shape) onto a flat plane map then the flat plane map represents the earth (of any shape).

Maybe this is a semantics thing, idk. But the sentence to me should read:

If you project the earth (of a specific shape) onto a flat plane map then the flat plane map represents the earth (of that specific shape).

[iamcpc]

Do you consider the WGS-84 model to be incorrect?

I've read about that model. Here's the problem. In college the highest math I took was calc 2.

The math behind this more of of topology which is something that you would take after calc 3.

I would have to be a math major to have a good idea if the WGS-84 model is correct or not.


Even taking calc 2 this image below might as well have been written in french.

Maybe this is a semantics thing, idk. But the sentence to me should read:
If you project the earth (of a specific shape) onto a flat plane map then the flat plane map represents the earth (of that specific shape).

I had my friend's sister who is an English major look at this sentence:


If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the Globe earth as a flat map


She said that saying globe and flat multiple times is repetitive and should not be done.

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that map represents the earth.

[stack]

Maybe this is a semantics thing, idk. But the sentence to me should read:
If you project the earth (of a specific shape) onto a flat plane map then the flat plane map represents the earth (of that specific shape).

I had my friend's sister who is an English major look at this sentence:


If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that flat map represents the Globe earth as a flat map


She said that saying globe and flat multiple times is repetitive and should not be done.

If you project a Globe Earth onto a flat map then that map represents the earth.

Great on the English lesson. But the problem is without me doing that you still don’t get it. I’m afraid you never will. Half of me thinks you’re just playing a game. And that’s fine. Carry on.