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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2017, 03:42:59 AM »
Tom, I'll take you up on your challenge. 
I'll gather some distance data and make a map.
If the Earth truly is flat, my map will be easy to make and come out flat.
If the Earth isn't flat, it will be hard to force onto a flat plane and it will come out some other shape.

Again, I repeat.  A flat world would be easy to map onto a flat piece of paper.  It is a wonder it hasn't been done.

You're going to gather distance data based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices to tell me that those devices show Round Earth distances?

If you ask us to accept the distance result of those Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices without question, you might as well just ask us to assume that the earth is round.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 03:44:41 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2017, 03:53:36 AM »
Tom, I'll take you up on your challenge. 
I'll gather some distance data and make a map.
If the Earth truly is flat, my map will be easy to make and come out flat.
If the Earth isn't flat, it will be hard to force onto a flat plane and it will come out some other shape.

Again, I repeat.  A flat world would be easy to map onto a flat piece of paper.  It is a wonder it hasn't been done.

You're going to gather distance data based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices to tell me that those devices show Round Earth distances?

If you ask us to accept the distance result of those Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices without question, you might as well just ask us to assume that the earth is round.
How would you produce a map?

Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2017, 04:21:42 AM »
Tom, I'll take you up on your challenge. 
I'll gather some distance data and make a map.
If the Earth truly is flat, my map will be easy to make and come out flat.
If the Earth isn't flat, it will be hard to force onto a flat plane and it will come out some other shape.

Again, I repeat.  A flat world would be easy to map onto a flat piece of paper.  It is a wonder it hasn't been done.

You're going to gather distance data based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices to tell me that those devices show Round Earth distances?

If you ask us to accept the distance result of those Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices without question, you might as well just ask us to assume that the earth is round.
How would you produce a map?
Yes Tom, how would you make a map. I've asked you twice about methods I've found, and neither time did I get a clear answer. How can we find distances you would be willing to accept, since apparently a FE mile is wildly different than a RE one. That's the only way the distances calculated could be different enough to merit problems.

Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2017, 04:35:41 AM »
You're going to gather distance data based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices to tell me that those devices show Round Earth distances?

If you ask us to accept the distance result of those Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices without question, you might as well just ask us to assume that the earth is round.

I will not gather distance data based on Round Earth lat/lon.  I will use flight times.  The time it takes from point A to point B doesn't depend on lat/lon or satellites.  It just is what it is.

I will not ask you to accept my result.  I am making this flat map for myself and sharing it with this community.  If you want a map that you will accept, you can make it yourself.

Tom,  I am not motivated to prove to you the shape of the Earth.  Logic tells me that if the world really is flat, then putting it on a flat piece of paper will be an easy exercise.  I'm going to try it.
The hallmark of true science is repeatability to the point of accurate prediction.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2017, 04:57:53 AM »
You're going to gather distance data based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices to tell me that those devices show Round Earth distances?

If you ask us to accept the distance result of those Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices without question, you might as well just ask us to assume that the earth is round.

I will not gather distance data based on Round Earth lat/lon.  I will use flight times.  The time it takes from point A to point B doesn't depend on lat/lon or satellites.  It just is what it is.

I will not ask you to accept my result.  I am making this flat map for myself and sharing it with this community.  If you want a map that you will accept, you can make it yourself.

Tom,  I am not motivated to prove to you the shape of the Earth.  Logic tells me that if the world really is flat, then putting it on a flat piece of paper will be an easy exercise.  I'm going to try it.

What makes you think that the flight times aren't generated based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices?

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Offline AstralSentient

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2017, 05:29:54 AM »
Well, in the model I accept, aether is bent across the Earth, so there is distorted space. 2D maps assume that space is flat, but it isn't, so there is no possible completely accurate map.
Proud advocate of the Relativity Non-Euclidean plane

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Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2017, 05:38:17 AM »
What are you talking about? The monopole model was phased out after the discovery of the South Pole
Please update the wiki then, most of the stuff there assumes the unipolar model.

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2017, 05:41:19 AM »
Well, in the model I accept, aether is bent across the Earth, so there is distorted space. 2D maps assume that space is flat, but it isn't, so there is no possible completely accurate map.
Do you have a description of this model? I suspect that no one here accepts it.

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2017, 06:17:32 AM »
What makes you think that the flight times aren't generated based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices?
I'm pretty sure that flight times are based on dear old watches. And confirmed by millions of passengers every day. Are you going to dispute watches? Or time?

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Offline AstralSentient

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2017, 07:25:07 AM »
Well, in the model I accept, aether is bent across the Earth, so there is distorted space. 2D maps assume that space is flat, but it isn't, so there is no possible completely accurate map.
Do you have a description of this model? I suspect that no one here accepts it.
A source with some description: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Davis+Model
Basically, aether (space-time), bends across the Earth, while clearly maintaining a flat plane due to the fact that it's able to be traversed in a straight line between two spatial coordinates, it is just that space bends rather than the straight line traveled across, so it's flat. From an external frame of reference, it appears as curved since space is curving (aka Ferrari effect). This has been confirmed experimentally and in observations.

Due to this, no accurate map can be made, because maps assume flat space, which isn't so with Earth.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 07:27:16 AM by SuperSentient »
Proud advocate of the Relativity Non-Euclidean plane

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=7191.0

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2017, 07:36:08 AM »
[...] From an external frame of reference, it appears as curved since space is curving (aka Ferrari effect). This has been confirmed experimentally and in observations.[...]
So it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, but it's actually a brontosaurus :p
Thank you! I'll have a look at it :)

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2017, 09:55:27 AM »
Well, in the model I accept, aether is bent across the Earth, so there is distorted space. 2D maps assume that space is flat, but it isn't, so there is no possible completely accurate map.
Do you have a description of this model? I suspect that no one here accepts it.
A source with some description: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Davis+Model
Basically, aether (space-time), bends across the Earth, while clearly maintaining a flat plane due to the fact that it's able to be traversed in a straight line between two spatial coordinates, it is just that space bends rather than the straight line traveled across, so it's flat. From an external frame of reference, it appears as curved since space is curving (aka Ferrari effect). This has been confirmed experimentally and in observations.
Is that link all that there is to it? Because it doesn't make any sense.
He asserts the existence of a "Ferrari effect" without explaining it.
He just "unrolls" two circular paths because so, and doesn't further elaborate... and kinda forget to mention what happens when the satellite is at the end of the path. Does it get magically teleported back at the beginning?

If this is instead supposed to be a sort of representation of space-time, considering that the path of the satellite brings it forward in space AND in time (thus not getting back where he was before) then calling the earth "flat" is just a word game. And the straight lines are entirely arbitrary. He might as well have used spiral paths in a 3d space.

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Due to this, no accurate map can be made, because maps assume flat space, which isn't so with Earth.
EDIT disregard yhe following. Maybe I see what you mean...
what does this even means? Maps and the thing they are representing coexist in the same universe. If the earth is flat, than the map on my table is also flat, if the space curves both (and the table), then both are curved, and the proportional representation should match 1:1.
Or is there a magical distance beyond which space curves more? ???
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 10:44:42 AM by Ga_x2 »

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2017, 10:49:50 AM »
What makes you think that the flight times aren't generated based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices?

Flight TIMES are measured using clocks - those times are verified by the millions of people who fly - and their reliability is backed by multiple watchdog groups who track the percentage of flights that arrive on time.   So times are indisputable...plus or minus a few minutes.

Flight DISTANCES are doubtless measured using RET techniques - which you're entitled to be skeptical about.

Flight SPEEDS are quoted by aircraft manufacturers.  You seem to disagree about how much they can be trusted.

But we know that DISTANCE = SPEED x TIME - so if we can prove the SPEED of airliners (or ships or whatever) - then we can check the RET-assumed DISTANCES to see if they are at least reasonable.

Trouble is - the difference between RET distances and FET distances varies TREMENDOUSLY between ocean and land and between northern and southern hemiplane/spheres.

How come airliner speeds are so variable?

I think this calls for a new thread...starting one now...
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2017, 01:06:54 PM »
You're going to gather distance data based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices to tell me that those devices show Round Earth distances?
...

I will not gather distance data based on Round Earth lat/lon.  I will use flight times.  The time it takes from point A to point B doesn't depend on lat/lon or satellites.  It just is what it is.
...

What makes you think that the flight times aren't generated based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices?

Using calculated distances would be as you say, "based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices".
But using logged flight times is not calculated at all.  It is very simple, historical data.  It isn't based on a compass or a GPS, it isn't round or flat data. It is just how long it takes to get from place to place.

I will be assuming that the airplanes fly at close to the same speed so I won't need to make any calculations.
I'll need to use the logs from each route as if flies in both directions to compensate for jetstream and I may as well average several flights.

I am planning to make card board cut-outs of the continents.  Then cut wires to the length of the flight times.  I will attach the wires to the cities on the continents and allow them to arrange them selves into the space of our world.

It won't be precise, but I will forgive the margin of error in my map.  A little error will cause a warble in my map, but a warped flat map is an acceptable margin of error for me.  Certainly, 10 minutes of error in a flight time can.t bend my flat earth into a globe.

If I get a warped flat map then the world is flat.  If I get a warped globe map, then the world is a globe.
The hallmark of true science is repeatability to the point of accurate prediction.

Offline zp0okii

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2017, 02:13:40 PM »
We look for directions to get somewhere through the air, sea or by land and using the coordinate system of Latitude/Longitude works very well for getting us to our destination.

You need to verify that the distances are accurate, not that you can travel from coordinate A to coordinate B.


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It has worked so reliably that I can do it with a map and compass or a fancy GPS and I will still get to my destination repeatably.  When the distances of the lines of Latitude and Longitude are plotted on a physical piece of media, they naturally curve and bend to form a sphere.  That sphere is the result of generations of empirical testing repeated with ever increasing degrees of sophistication and yet not once has it been wildly off target.

Please show these "generations of empirical testing"

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By comparison, the FE community doesn't have even the most rudimentary map that is capable of being used for navigation over long distance in any southern continent.

Incorrect.

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The FE model can't explain flights in half of the known world without resorting to an explanation of magic to explain why the FE flights break the rules of physics.  I thought that the Zetetic Method was all about observable testable hypothesis, but I've yet to see anyone from the FE community even remotely consider testing their hypothesis against a null.  Unless the FE model is capable of physically measuring and plotting out the distances of the southern hemisphere accurately

What are you talking about? The monopole model was phased out after the discovery of the South Pole.

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So far there is no solid empirical evidence that the earth is flat so I must revert to the null.  That is the scientific method.

Atually the Scientific Method involves experimentation to confirm your hypothesis. You have provided none of your own, and none of others.



That will answer all points raised.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2017, 02:52:44 PM »

That will answer all points raised.

We know how map projections work.

Using calculated distances would be as you say, "based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices".

But using logged flight times is not calculated at all.  It is very simple, historical data.  It isn't based on a compass or a GPS, it isn't round or flat data. It is just how long it takes to get from place to place.

They also need to know the distance between those points in order to compute their average speed.

Airspeed-only instruments are inaccurate and not used in navigation, as it is difficult to measure the speed of fluids traveling within fluids.

Offline zp0okii

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2017, 03:00:15 PM »
Quote
We know how map projections work.

What is your explanation for why they exist? Why would we need projection for mapping if the earth is flat? Wouldn't we be able to just directly transcribe from one plane to another?

Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2017, 03:02:27 PM »
Using calculated distances would be as you say, "based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices".

But using logged flight times is not calculated at all.  It is very simple, historical data.  It isn't based on a compass or a GPS, it isn't round or flat data. It is just how long it takes to get from place to place.

They also need to know the distance between those points in order to compute their average speed.

Airspeed-only instruments are inaccurate and not used in navigation, as it is difficult to measure the speed of fluids traveling within fluids.
He's not using speed at all though. Miles don't enter into the equation. He's going to use the flight times as an impromptu 'unit of measure' for his wires. I would presume something like 1 inch = 1 hour. Distance is removed entirely from the equation, and since one can reasonably assume all planes of the same type fly the same speed, the proportions will all be the same.

On that note JHelzer, make sure you're pulling all flight times from the same airline, preferably doing your best to double check they are all done with the same plane model. I believe Qantas was used before as their entire intercontinental fleet is the same model of plane.

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Offline CriticalThinker

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2017, 03:13:51 PM »
We look for directions to get somewhere through the air, sea or by land and using the coordinate system of Latitude/Longitude works very well for getting us to our destination.

You need to verify that the distances are accurate, not that you can travel from coordinate A to coordinate B.


Quote
It has worked so reliably that I can do it with a map and compass or a fancy GPS and I will still get to my destination repeatably.  When the distances of the lines of Latitude and Longitude are plotted on a physical piece of media, they naturally curve and bend to form a sphere.  That sphere is the result of generations of empirical testing repeated with ever increasing degrees of sophistication and yet not once has it been wildly off target.

Please show these "generations of empirical testing"

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By comparison, the FE community doesn't have even the most rudimentary map that is capable of being used for navigation over long distance in any southern continent.

Incorrect.

Quote
The FE model can't explain flights in half of the known world without resorting to an explanation of magic to explain why the FE flights break the rules of physics.  I thought that the Zetetic Method was all about observable testable hypothesis, but I've yet to see anyone from the FE community even remotely consider testing their hypothesis against a null.  Unless the FE model is capable of physically measuring and plotting out the distances of the southern hemisphere accurately

What are you talking about? The monopole model was phased out after the discovery of the South Pole.

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So far there is no solid empirical evidence that the earth is flat so I must revert to the null.  That is the scientific method.

Atually the Scientific Method involves experimentation to confirm your hypothesis. You have provided none of your own, and none of others.



That will answer all points raised.

Point #1 & 2: Travel between coordinates using a globed earth mapping system has repeatedly worked for all of human travel since the invention of aircraft at the very least.  Despite your insistence that the distances are not accurate, autopilot aircraft have successfully used those distances and vectors to arrive at their destination hundreds of times per day.  Autonomous vehicles use a combination of GPS and Radar to navigate obstacle courses successfully without human interference so the coordinate system must be accurate enough.  Repeat testing for several generations of human travel between 2 points by land sea and air constitute empirical evidence.  If the coordinate systems of Lat/Long were dramatically wrong, planes, cars and boats would routinely end up way off course.  They don't.  Had they been wildly inaccurate in the southern hemiplane, a new system would by necessity have to be developed and tested.  The globed earth coordinate system accurately delivers passengers to their destinations every day.  The FE model doesn't.

Point #3:  If such a map exists with a map legend including a distance scale, please point me to it so that I may attempt a long distance trip in the southern hemiplane using it and a metered wheel on the surface of the flat earth to test its accuracy.  I would think that crossing a single southern hemiplane continent in multiple intersecting directions should be sufficient to assess accuracy.  Again a margin of error of under 5% would be expected if the FE map is accurate.

Point #4: Using the bi-polar model, flights between the southern hemiplane continents are calculated to take longer lengths of time than there is physical fuel to achieve.  The explanation that has been provided thus far is that somehow the effects of Aetheric Wind has made all southern hemiplane flights travel faster than Mach 2 without the accompanying sonic boom associated with breaking the sound barrier.  However, the mechanism of measuring Aether has yet to be provided.

Point #5:  You are mistaken about the scientific method of conducting research.  When you test a hypothesis to prove yourself correct, you introduce confirmation bias.  With confirmation bias, you alter data sets, ignore specific data points and draw erroneous conclusions to support your expected outcome.  When the scientific method of testing is properly applied in a research setting, you collect all data with the intent to prove yourself wrong and only upon failing to do so, do you declare your hypothesis supported.  Never proven, just supported.  In science, only laws of above contestation because laws can be fundamentally expressed through nothing more than mathematics.

The FE community has stated the hypothesis that the FE exists, searched for data to prove itself correct and as a result has introduced confirmation bias.  When data is supplied that casts doubt on your hypothesis, the confirmation bias is magnified by the unilateral dismissal of the data.  This is how confirmation bias leads to erroneous conclusions based on cherrypicked data.  Had you instead attempted to find data to challenge the validity of the hypothesis first, we might not be having this conversation.

By the way, has anyone from the FE community on this forum ever conducted peer reviewed published research before?  Just curious about how technical I should be getting.

Thank You,

CriticalThinker

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Offline CriticalThinker

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Re: Cartography and a flat earth
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2017, 03:18:37 PM »

That will answer all points raised.

We know how map projections work.

Using calculated distances would be as you say, "based on Round Earth lat/lon coordinate devices".

But using logged flight times is not calculated at all.  It is very simple, historical data.  It isn't based on a compass or a GPS, it isn't round or flat data. It is just how long it takes to get from place to place.

They also need to know the distance between those points in order to compute their average speed.

Airspeed-only instruments are inaccurate and not used in navigation, as it is difficult to measure the speed of fluids traveling within fluids.

No they don't Tom as I established in the other thread.  All they need is to be able to measure the Doppler Shift Effect which doesn't rely on a known distance or any globed earth assumption.  It's based on the physics of echolocation.  When combined with a standard timepiece, distance can be calculated algebraically.

Thank you,

CritcalThinker
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