*

Offline beardo

  • *
  • Posts: 5230
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #800 on: August 07, 2014, 10:32:07 PM »
The wisdom of Vivec.
The Mastery.

*

Offline Particle Person

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2987
  • born 2 b b&
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #801 on: August 07, 2014, 10:34:02 PM »
Morrowind averts almost all of the basic tropes that most fantasy works strive to include, giving the world a wonderfully unique vibe.  The land itself isn't the usual quaint English countryside.  The political system isn't the usual feudal nobility with a hereditary line of monarchs at the top.  The city designs are remarkably creative.  The flora and fauna are utterly zany.  The setting just looks and feels very, very different from the kind of thing you'd see in Tolkien or Warhammer or D&D or Dragonlance or Game of Thrones or whatever, and that can only be a good thing when most fantasy that comes out these days just seems to be more of the same.

Just because Morrowind is a different stereotype doesn't mean it isn't a stereotype.

Can you describe the stereotype?
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

*

Offline beardo

  • *
  • Posts: 5230
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #802 on: August 07, 2014, 11:36:53 PM »
I certainly could not.
The Mastery.

Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #803 on: August 07, 2014, 11:52:26 PM »
It's the "wacky colorful look we're a different kind of setting" stereotype.

*

Offline Particle Person

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2987
  • born 2 b b&
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #804 on: August 07, 2014, 11:58:27 PM »
It's the "wacky colorful look we're a different kind of setting" stereotype.

Wacky and colorful? One of the biggest complaints about Morrowind's aesthetic is that everything is either brown or gray. Even if it were accurate, that seems way too vague to be an actual stereotype. Can you provide some other examples that fit this description?
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #805 on: August 08, 2014, 12:09:16 AM »
It's the "wacky colorful look we're a different kind of setting" stereotype.

Wacky and colorful? One of the biggest complaints about Morrowind's aesthetic is that everything is either brown or gray. Even if it were accurate, that seems way too vague to be an actual stereotype. Can you provide some other examples that fit this description?

Warcraft.

*

Offline Particle Person

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2987
  • born 2 b b&
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #806 on: August 08, 2014, 12:19:51 AM »
It's the "wacky colorful look we're a different kind of setting" stereotype.

Wacky and colorful? One of the biggest complaints about Morrowind's aesthetic is that everything is either brown or gray. Even if it were accurate, that seems way too vague to be an actual stereotype. Can you provide some other examples that fit this description?

Warcraft.

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/warriorshtm/bigdogmetoo.htm

Can you be more specific, though?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 12:27:45 AM by Alexandyr »
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #807 on: August 08, 2014, 12:25:58 AM »
That's a very strange criticism. Warcraft isn't necessarily 'wacky and colourful' either.

Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #808 on: August 08, 2014, 12:49:59 AM »
I'm not even criticizing. I just like watching Alex get all worked up about Morrowind. I've always thought Morrowind was a great game. I like Oblivion better though. Personally opinion so I don't really want to get into a debate about it. The settings in games are not what makes/breaks the game for me, though. I have no issue with Oblivion's more generic presentation.

Burning Crusade WoW is reminiscent of Morrowind though, similar looking flora at least. Although, Morrowind arguably did it first and did it better.

*

Offline Particle Person

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2987
  • born 2 b b&
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #809 on: August 08, 2014, 01:30:51 AM »
Although, Morrowind arguably did it first

I would argue that 2002 was before 2007.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #810 on: August 08, 2014, 01:32:03 AM »
Morrowind was in space?

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #811 on: August 08, 2014, 02:05:13 AM »
Morrowind is a funky game that only true funksters can appreciate.  Oblivion, however, is a white bread game made for conservative congressmen.

*

Online Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8569
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #812 on: August 08, 2014, 02:21:12 AM »
Can you describe the stereotype?

In a word? Mushrooms.

Morrowind is a funky game that only true funksters can appreciate.  Oblivion, however, is a white bread game made for conservative congressmen.

Oh really? Since you've already posted TvTropes as a criticism of Oblivion, then obviously the same must work for Morrowind. Let's take a look: (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardFantasySetting)

 
Quote
   Post-Tolkien, this usually has at least three of the standard Five Races of heroic peoples:
        Dwarves

...Yes.
       
Quote
Elves

...Yes.

       
Quote
Humans

Do  I have to say yes or do you need to think this one out a bit?

           
Quote
As an alternative, Humans can be divided into races. Normally, this is done by using hair color and/or a Fantasy Counterpart Culture.

...Yes.
           
Quote
Any of the above being called by a different name is allowed. That applies to humans, too.

Yes, everything that even remotely looks like an elf should have "mer" in the name, including dwarves!


Quote
    Our Monsters Are Different

Check out how wacky and zany and "different" our monsters are!
 
Quote
   Functional Magic
        Magic A Is Magic A, almost invariably
        Black Magic (Dark Is Not Evil is allowed as an implementation detail)
        Squishy Wizards
        Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards

Yes.
 
 
Quote
At least two of the following:
        The Empire
        The Kingdom
        The Alliance
        The Horde (usually Undead or Orcish, and every so often, Beast Men, when the author wants a little variety or is a fur-fan. For even more variety, all three at once.)
    Standard royal courts

Well, there is an empire, but as for the name itself there is no other entity, so this I can't really say. Though five great houses that you are born into for political power is not really groundbreaking, unless Game of Thrones strikes you as "new and original."

   
Quote
A (usually) European-style Pseudo-Medieval setting.

Check.

Quote
        Generally Medieval Stasis; the general dividing line is that any technology that Leonardo da Vinci wouldn't have drawn renders the setting non-compliant, unless said technology is a Relic Of The Past.

Yes and no. The dwemer built some awesome stuff, but then magically disappeared so that the world could stay in a medieval shit hole. I'm going to give this one a check.

Quote
            Fantasy Gun Control: You'd better learn how to use a bow, Mack, 'cause that gun's just gonna click.

Dwemer: Good enough to make robots, too dumb to make guns. Weird.
 

Quote
        The Sword And Sandal subgenre thrives in a Fantasy Counterpart Culture in the ancient world and — just to make life confusing — can cheerfully co-exist with other portions of the world having a pseudo-medieval setting.

Check.


Quote
            Similarly, technology is often all over the place, with Iron, Bronze, and Stone-age weapons existing alongside actual Middle Age- and early Renaissance-era weapons. Even if there are no guns, for example, you will often easily find rapiers, light blades that only came about in Real Life because guns began making armor less prevalent.

Yes.

Quote
    Fantasy Character Classes, if the work in question is a Roleplaying Game of some kind, though this is not a necessary element. If it's not a game it may still feature some of the character archetypes that inspired the modern classes.

Morrowind is literally D&D when it comes to this.

The lesson here guys is there is no TES game that isn't a generic fantasy game, no matter how much you want to say it is unqiue or original. That goes doubly so for Morrowind, which is on top of being a generic fantasy, also has a pretty generic setting and landscape.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 02:25:20 AM by Irushwithscvs »

*

Offline Vongeo

  • *
  • Posts: 634
  • I don't get it either
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #813 on: August 08, 2014, 02:38:30 AM »


 
Quote
   Post-Tolkien, this usually has at least three of the standard Five Races of heroic peoples:
        Dwarves

There is one dwarf, and he's part robot crab
       
Quote
Elves

...Yes.

       
Quote
Humans

Do  I have to say yes or do you need to think this one out a bit?

           
Quote
As an alternative, Humans can be divided into races. Normally, this is done by using hair color and/or a Fantasy Counterpart Culture.

...Yes.
           
Quote
Any of the above being called by a different name is allowed. That applies to humans, too.

Yes, everything that even remotely looks like an elf should have "mer" in the name, including dwarves!


Quote
    Our Monsters Are Different

Why did you include this but not the beast races which are much more present and there.
 
Quote
   Functional Magic
        Magic A Is Magic A, almost invariably
        Black Magic (Dark Is Not Evil is allowed as an implementation detail)
        Squishy Wizards
        Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards

There ain't no black magic.
 
 
Quote
At least two of the following:
        The Empire
        The Kingdom
        The Alliance
        The Horde (usually Undead or Orcish, and every so often, Beast Men, when the author wants a little variety or is a fur-fan. For even more variety, all three at once.)
    Standard royal courts

Well, there is an empire, but as for the name itself there is no other entity, so this I can't really say. Though five great houses that you are born into for political power is not really groundbreaking, unless Game of Thrones strikes you as "new and original."

   
Quote
A (usually) European-style Pseudo-Medieval setting.

Its mostly weird buildings made of crabs and middle eastern holes.

Quote
        Generally Medieval Stasis; the general dividing line is that any technology that Leonardo da Vinci wouldn't have drawn renders the setting non-compliant, unless said technology is a Relic Of The Past.

At this point we can tell Rushy can't get past the red mountains

Quote
            Fantasy Gun Control: You'd better learn how to use a bow, Mack, 'cause that gun's just gonna click.

They don't have gun powder
 

Quote
        The Sword And Sandal subgenre thrives in a Fantasy Counterpart Culture in the ancient world and — just to make life confusing — can cheerfully co-exist with other portions of the world having a pseudo-medieval setting.

Check.


Quote
            Similarly, technology is often all over the place, with Iron, Bronze, and Stone-age weapons existing alongside actual Middle Age- and early Renaissance-era weapons. Even if there are no guns, for example, you will often easily find rapiers, light blades that only came about in Real Life because guns began making armor less prevalent.

Only 2 sabers in the game and they are pretty thick

Quote
    Fantasy Character Classes, if the work in question is a Roleplaying Game of some kind, though this is not a necessary element. If it's not a game it may still feature some of the character archetypes that inspired the modern classes.

Morrowind you can pick whatever skills you want and are restricted to what particular skills you would be good at dependent on your history as a person.

Rushy is bad at Morrowind.
Maple syrup was a kind of candy, made from the blood of trees.

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #814 on: August 08, 2014, 02:40:54 AM »
#Rushy'd

Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #815 on: August 08, 2014, 02:53:11 AM »
*golf clap*

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #816 on: August 08, 2014, 04:04:55 AM »
If only I weren't confined to my phone and could write out a detailed rebuttal.  Off the top of my head, the Dwemer aren't really dwarves, none of the cultures in these games could really be considered a "counterpart" of a real life one, and I don't care about D&D's class mechanics.  The setting is what's being discussed here.

And in answer to the question you first raised, no, not really.  Don't be dumb.

*

Online Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8569
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #817 on: August 08, 2014, 04:12:00 AM »
If only I weren't confined to my phone and could write out a detailed rebuttal.  Off the top of my head, the Dwemer aren't really dwarves, none of the cultures in these games could really be considered a "counterpart" of a real life one, and I don't care about D&D's class mechanics.  The setting is what's being discussed here.

They live underground, are mostly machinists, and have great flowing beards. They're the very archetype of dwarves.

Furthermore, class mechanics are part of the setting. You're basically saying "everyone in this world equals one of these things."

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #818 on: August 08, 2014, 04:32:53 AM »
If only I weren't confined to my phone and could write out a detailed rebuttal.  Off the top of my head, the Dwemer aren't really dwarves, none of the cultures in these games could really be considered a "counterpart" of a real life one, and I don't care about D&D's class mechanics.  The setting is what's being discussed here.

They live underground, are mostly machinists, and have great flowing beards. They're the very archetype of dwarves.

Furthermore, class mechanics are part of the setting. You're basically saying "everyone in this world equals one of these things."


Change a couple of minor details and BAM, you have yourself a brand new 'original' race. They're totally not Dwarves.

*

Online Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8569
    • View Profile
Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #819 on: August 08, 2014, 05:18:37 AM »
Change a couple of minor details and BAM, you have yourself a brand new 'original' race. They're totally not Dwarves.

Yeah, I don't get Saddam's logic. Also, to further my point, TES games colloquially refer to the Dwemer as "dwarves" in multiple texts.

commonly referred as "Dwarves"

He might as well return to arguing that giant mushrooms and gloomy marshlands are "zany and different."