The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: TotesNotReptilian on August 03, 2016, 06:08:37 PM

Title: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on August 03, 2016, 06:08:37 PM
If you have ever been south of the Equator, you know that the seasons are reversed: December through January are the hottest months, and have the longest daylight hours. Flat earth theory has a halfway decent explanation for this. The radius of the sun's orbit above the earth increases and decreases with the seasons. During the southern summer months, the sun has a larger orbital radius:

(http://wiki.tfes.org/images/c/c8/Flat_Earth_Seasons.svg)

This sort of makes sense for the Northern Hemisphere. But as they say, the devil's in the details. Let's look at two cities during the December Solstice:

New York City: 9 hours 15 minutes of daylight (http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/new-york)
Sao Paulo: 13 hours 35 minutes of daylight (http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/brazil/sao-paulo)

I plotted the location of the sun at sunrise and sunset for each city on a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection Map*:

(http://i.imgur.com/r19XSG3.jpg)

Notice the location of the sun at sunset for each city. Why does the sun set later for Sao Paulo than for New York City, even though New York City is much closer to the sun?

As you move farther south of Sao Paulo, the days become longer and longer, and the distance from the sun at sunset and sunrise gets farther and farther! In fact, according to this model, in the extreme southern latitudes, much of the northern hemisphere lies between the sun and the southern hemisphere at sunset, despite it being pitch black in many of those northern locations. How is this possible on a flat earth?

* Yes, I know this isn't an official flat earth map. But since there isn't an official map, I'll use this one since it seems to be the most commonly referenced.

Edit: Accidentally posted early. Give me a few minutes. Ok, all better now.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on August 03, 2016, 10:03:46 PM
I added Punta Arenas and Los Angeles, which makes it even worse.

(http://i.imgur.com/nOYRtjq.jpg)

Notice that the sun sets for Los Angeles before Punta Arenas, despite Los Angeles being directly between the sun and Punta Arenas at the time. Likewise, the sun rises for Punta Arenas before it rises for Sao Paulo, despite Sao Paulo being directly between the sun and Punta Arenas.

The geometry just doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Rounder on August 03, 2016, 10:08:11 PM
The direction of the rising and setting sun (http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/brazil/sao-paulo?month=12) are problematic for FE as well.  Sao Paulo should see the sun rising 26° south of due east, and setting 26° south of due west, but that's not what is shown on the Gleason map.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rqos71UTYP7NIh-rzi8j5hWEaFfOWCByT5hhVHfaUYLwyJ9oapEPspsiaEllAjzyT82oMM2COSvj5pwkHaqgadD1xBDSO809_XLLW7KDBHCJiF-_omRAcamQhjOly8BDRtqD60svp1a_HKvYfN_WYIpU9kYrpbArVEiym__3oJoOklWAHuIq2PInnUdZ7xSc_JglzZkwd_kuO9HazlOUYjkCrFkuRlSCFEVNsBcWHopxoXHxMjunTE9qplK5LPqUAZeaftyNT0BMW5PJNQhTjkyeBBHb00KdkQpUmsPw9E2vaLmNNMIxpmtsnv94uX71yV7a3D4CpK55BgMWhA9XE6vbI_VFr7FwycV-NlkxSqOjwItIZ4zcq7Gquty6Pb3_cRtr2VhvAILrBzBseT6QMIpetaP8aMTHSxQ45FO5utSxEK4xeprt5vEBzcRnM0MaAyoGcSOvVUk3x1kf4PRg7HLPAFqgPkrI3_JeID52JASOuOvgfXcRyHj5N2LInJ_5Wjok9JHZ1TYn3uOjMfeVMJ5WfoQzTSzV119Au_neWEp4NMpWOTmvg9WDYbhTZoagEvix37Lr2qHDF3kmYLPRTsFTjbVv3Hg=w706-h691-no)
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: rabinoz on August 03, 2016, 10:45:45 PM
If you have ever been south of the Equator, you know that the seasons are reversed: December through January are the hottest months, and have the longest daylight hours. Flat earth theory has a halfway decent explanation for this. The radius of the sun's orbit above the earth increases and decreases with the seasons. During the southern summer months, the sun has a larger orbital radius:

(http://wiki.tfes.org/images/c/c8/Flat_Earth_Seasons.svg)

This sort of makes sense for the Northern Hemisphere. But as they say, the devil's in the details. Let's look at two cities during the December Solstice:

New York City: 9 hours 15 minutes of daylight (http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/new-york)
Sao Paulo: 13 hours 35 minutes of daylight (http://www.timeanddate.com/sun/brazil/sao-paulo)

I plotted the location of the sun at sunrise and sunset for each city on a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection Map*:

(http://i.imgur.com/r19XSG3.jpg)

Notice the location of the sun at sunset for each city. Why does the sun set later for Sao Paulo than for New York City, even though New York City is much closer to the sun?

As you move farther south of Sao Paulo, the days become longer and longer, and the distance from the sun at sunset and sunrise gets farther and farther! In fact, according to this model, in the extreme southern latitudes, much of the northern hemisphere lies between the sun and the southern hemisphere at sunset, despite it being pitch black in many of those northern locations. How is this possible on a flat earth?

* Yes, I know this isn't an official flat earth map. But since there isn't an official map, I'll use this one since it seems to be the most commonly referenced.

Edit: Accidentally posted early. Give me a few minutes. Ok, all better now.
Since  ;) I always want to do the right thing!  ;) I did as i was told and looked up "the Wiki"! The nearest I could find was on sunsets, so
Quote from: the Wiki
The Setting of the Sun
Although the sun is at all times above the earth's surface, it appears in the morning to ascend from the north-east to the noonday position, and thence to descend and disappear, or set, in the north-west. This phenomenon arises from the operation of a simple and everywhere visible law of perspective. A flock of birds, when passing over a flat or marshy country, always appears to descend is it recedes; and if the flock is extensive, the first bird appears lower or nearer to the horizon than the last, although they are at the same actual altitude above the earth immediately beneath them. When a plane flies away from an observer, without increasing or decreasing its altitude, it appears to gradually approach the horizon. In a long row of lamps, the second, supposing the observer to stand at the beginning of the series, will appear lower than the first; the third lower than the second; and so on to the end of the row; the farthest away always appearing the lowest, although each one has the same altitude; and if such a straight line of lamps could be continued far enough, the lights would at length descend, apparently, to the horizon, or to a level with the eye of the observer. This explains how the sun descends into the horizon as it recedes.
Once the lower part of the Sun meets the horizon line, however, it will intersect with the vanishing point and become lost to human perception as the sun's increasingly shallow path creates a tangent beyond the resolution of the human eye. The vanishing point is created when the perspective lines are angled less than one minute of a degree. Hence, this effectively places the vanishing point a finite distance away from the observer.
Usually it is taught in art schools that the vanishing point is an infinite distance away from the observer, as so:
(http://wiki.tfes.org/images/7/7c/Fig71.jpg)
However, since man cannot perceive infinity due to human limitations, the perspective lines are modified and placed a finite distance away from the observer as so:
(http://wiki.tfes.org/images/f/f8/Fig75.jpg)
This finite distance to the vanishing point is what allows ships to ascend into horizon and disappear as their hulls intersect with the vanishing point. Every receding star and celestial body in the night sky likewise disappears after intersecting with the vanishing point.

This clearly, and fairly correctly, states that " The vanishing point is created when the perspective lines are angled less than one minute of a degree."

Now the Wiki states that the sun is 32 miles in diameter, so the vanishing point for the sun should be 32/arctan(1' of arc) = 110,008 miles!

Need I say more? The explanations in the Wiki and in Rowbotham are completely ridiculous.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on August 03, 2016, 11:17:01 PM
Now the Wiki states that the sun is 32 miles in diameter, so the vanishing point for the sun should be 32/arctan(1' of arc) = 110,008 miles!

Need I say more? The explanations in the Wiki and in Rowbotham are completely ridiculous.

And that's just for the sun to vanish. For it to appear to touch the horizon, the angle between the sun and the horizon would have to be less than 1' of arc. Assuming the sun is 3000 miles above the earth:

3000/arctan(1' of arc) = 10,000,000 miles away. (horizontally)

Yikes.

Edit: 5 posts, 4 major holes in FE theory! We need some Zetetic researchers on this, stat!
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: rabinoz on August 04, 2016, 05:24:21 AM
Now the Wiki states that the sun is 32 miles in diameter, so the vanishing point for the sun should be 32/arctan(1' of arc) = 110,008 miles!

Need I say more? The explanations in the Wiki and in Rowbotham are completely ridiculous.

And that's just for the sun to vanish. For it to appear to touch the horizon, the angle between the sun and the horizon would have to be less than 1' of arc. Assuming the sun is 3000 miles above the earth:

3000/arctan(1' of arc) = 10,000,000 miles away. (horizontally)

Yikes.

Edit: 5 posts, 4 major holes in FE theory! We need some Zetetic researchers on this, stat!
Aha, Eureka!
Quote from: the Wiki
The Setting of the Sun
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
In addition to this modified law of perspective the remaining light of the sun bouncing around in the atmosphere will be lost by the non transparent atmosphere. After the sun sets the sky is still relatively illuminated. It takes a couple hours for the deep blackness of the night to set in. The cause of night is simply due to a non-transparent atmosphere. As the sun recedes its light is dimmed and lost to the increasing number of atoms and molecules which intersect the light rays.
Take note that at sunset the sun is already dimmed by an order of magnitude compared to its intensity overhead at noonday. At sunset it is possible to look directly at the sun without a straining of the eye, while overhead at noon looking directly at the sun can be quite painful. This severe reduction of intensity at sunset is a striking example of how the atmosphere can reduce the intensity of an object with distance.

It seems that the Northern Hemisphere is closer to the sun, yet doesn't get the requisite number of daylight hours. Now we all know that the atmosphere is much more polluted in the Northern Hemisphere than in the Southern Hemisphere. So with all this "sun bouncing around in the atmosphere" will be lost by the non transparent atmosphere".

 ;D Seems plausible.  ;D
But if the sunset (and sunrise) times are determined by the extremely variable non-transparency atmosphere, How is it possible to predict the time of the sunset to within a couple of minutes at the outside?
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on August 12, 2016, 06:00:29 PM
Over a week, and no responses. Last call for any flat earthers out there, before I add it to the pile of round earth proofs.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Luke 22:35-38 on August 13, 2016, 02:53:51 AM
Over a week, and no responses. Last call for any flat earthers out there, before I add it to the pile of round earth proofs.

It is a rather slow site compared to the other site. But that's still no excuse.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: nametaken on August 14, 2016, 04:00:17 AM
My Favorite Flat Earth Topic! Yay!

Bascially on the flat earth model, you have, as you have shown, 3 'layers' of orbits to the corkscrew 'orbit' path. The 'inner' path seems to move the fastest (less surface area to cover on 'the dome')... the middle path (spring/fall) is the medium speed (slightly more 'surface area' to cover on the dome), and then... DUH DUH DUH! The outer ring, the wiiiiiiiidddeeeeesssssttttt and slowest (weneedtogowider.jpeg).

It never fails to leave me with a smirk. I feel it coming on now. Imagine a pancake. A kind of big one. The surface area near the 'middle' of the pancake is small, can be navigated fast. The outter edge though, if you go the same speed as in the middle, is much slower and takes longer to traverse.

Only problem with OP's post is not posting the time of year, you see. Obviously with a sun that has 3 orbital paths to go between sometimes he/she shows up late, early, or not at all (OOPS!). Busy guy/gall can't be everywhere at once. I have seen FE try to say... IM TRYING NOT TO LAUGH that the sun SPEEDS UP on the outer ring to keep appearance of same speed. But this OP implies it does go 'slower' maybe on the outer ring? If anything that actually PROVES Flat Earth then; though the reported sunrise direction does sound like checkmate to me.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on August 14, 2016, 08:08:39 AM
Nametaken, I'm pretty sure you completely missed the point of my post.

Only problem with OP's post is not posting the time of year, you see.

I did specify the time of year. December solstice. December 21. Northern winter, southern summer.

Quote
the sun SPEEDS UP on the outer ring to keep appearance of same speed.

Yes, it would have to speed up to make it around the longer loop in the same 24 hour period. This is yet another problem with the FE model. However, that wasn't the point of my post.

Quote
But this OP implies it does go 'slower' maybe on the outer ring? If anything that actually PROVES Flat Earth then;

I am fairly sure I did not imply anything of the sort. Even if I did, how on earth would that prove that the earth is flat? I merely plotted the location of the sun during sunrise/sunset for each city, based on the amount of daylight they receive. The goal was to highlight some geometric problems with the flat earth model.

Quote
though the reported sunrise direction does sound like checkmate to me.

yep
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: nametaken on August 14, 2016, 09:59:09 AM
I made a few edits to the post for clarity and to fix a few mistakes.

Nametaken, I'm pretty sure you completely missed the point of my post.

That's what I'm best at. On google Earth, all of your points of sunrise and sunset are mapped concisely. Simply fire it up and navigate to the point of sunrise and spin towards the corresponding town, and you will feel like the sun, just as you have depicted. Interesting trick, about which way the sun rises from.

I caught the fact that you listed December right after I posted. But I had too much fun writing that. I probably do owe a slight apology there, but it sure was fun. That is a nice diagram. Wish I made it myself to be honest, I might have been slightly jealous.

Yes, it would have to speed up to make it around the longer loop in the same 24 hour period. This is yet another problem with the FE model. However, that wasn't the point of my post.

It has to move faster to cover more area in the same amount of time, but that still means it spends more time in the sky in December. The only inconsistency I see is with sun rise direction to be honest (FE Model); but it uses shady logic. The sun doesn't actually appear from over another continent, as the image you put will seem to show (illusion). Basic geometry, if I may borrow your image... What these people might see:

Proof I'm not a FE shill I made a mistake: old one I messed up:
http://i.imgur.com/r9OE9bA.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/r9OE9bA.jpg)

Real One:
(http://i.imgur.com/Jom6EQp.jpg)

The black lines are what these people in each city should see... not the rising from another continent. The sunrise and sunset are time-based, not location based in the image you provided. Unless like you said I am missing the point entirely. Simple geometry. Although that leaves the issue of sunset direction for the FE model it seems, so my diagram may be incorrect.

As you admit, that scale is incorrect and not official FE Map. So we are both shooting in the dark on that one. In FE model, as I stated above, in winter the sun moves much, much slower in the 'southern hemisphere'. So the daylight cycle is accurate on both model's as far as I can tell; that's not a problem with the FE model, nor the globe. The sun gives the Southern Hemisphere more December love in both models. Though for People in Punta, I imagine the sun seems to move VERY slow considering that margin of window they have.

I am fairly sure I did not imply anything of the sort. Even if I did, how on earth would that prove that the earth is flat? I merely plotted the location of the sun during sunrise/sunset for each city, based on the amount of daylight they receive. The goal was to highlight some geometric problems with the flat earth model.

Regardless, the FE model implies that it appears to go 'slower' in southern hemisphere, due to more area to cover. This argument automatically implies that at the outset. It's not an argument otherwise. I should have said 'proof of longer days this time of year favors neither flat earth nor globe model' instead of 'if anything it proves flat earth'. I meant, it's not an argument for or against either model, as both models sufficiently account for it.

Nope! Looks like both models check out. Though it looks a little funny for sunset direction on FE model. The downside of not having a official FE map, maybe? I'm assuming it has to do with sunrise/sunset angles on globe model assuming the lat/long gets smaller on globe, when in fact, they get larger on FE model, meaning a translation is required. I may simply be missing something, I admit.

#TIL
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Rama Set on August 14, 2016, 01:12:32 PM
Nametaken, the last time the OP was edited was August 3rd. You missed the date originally. It's your mistake, not TotesNotReptilian's. You should probably apologize too.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: nametaken on August 14, 2016, 02:03:56 PM
Nametaken, the last time the OP was edited was August 3rd. You missed the date originally. It's your mistake, not TotesNotReptilian's. You should probably apologize too.

True didn't see that. Didn't realize how slow this forum moves, this was the second post I saw in this board, and assumed it was recent. That is my bad. I probably won't post here anymore anyway. Every other post I made in the past here similarly had a response asking me to either apologize or leave; typically because my posts were poor quality anyway. That's [the literal reason] why I left last time (though I typically welcome that type of response on most boards). I meant, what I said above, was I edited my post several times due to errors in post-posting proofreading, not anyone else's. This is the only forum I've ever received a ban warning flag from in my entire life. I only responded here mainly because I saw the words "last call"; tbh I'm arguing a point I don't even agree with here (and failing apparently anyway, so I'll stop), I just challenge accepted it since TNR did me the same favor. In that capacity TNR did a much better job than I did of that, and I didn't even have to sit through a 2 hour movie like I forced [them] to. As for whatever mess I tried to convey above, ??? for that I will sincerely apologize; I am still trying to make heads and tails of it myself (hence the edits).

This is the first forum I've ever had anyone address me by my username, I've never seen that before but I see it constantly here. Anyone else notice that?
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Rounder on August 15, 2016, 12:50:04 AM
tbh I'm arguing a point I don't even agree with here (and failing apparently anyway, so I'll stop)...As for whatever mess I tried to convey above, ??? for that I will sincerely apologize; I am still trying to make heads and tails of it myself (hence the edits).
I am quite confused, I'll admit. 

This is the first forum I've ever had anyone address me by my username, I've never seen that before but I see it constantly here. Anyone else notice that?
How else would we address you?  We don't know your real name.  When conversations become lively, calling out usernames is a good way for us to be sure the intended recipient of a given comment is understood by all.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: rabinoz on August 15, 2016, 04:08:52 AM
I made a few edits to the post for clarity and to fix a few mistakes.

Nametaken, I'm pretty sure you completely missed the point of my post.

That's what I'm best at. On google Earth, all of your points of sunrise and sunset are mapped concisely. Simply fire it up and navigate to the point of sunrise and spin towards the corresponding town, and you will feel like the sun, just as you have depicted. Interesting trick, about which way the sun rises from.

I caught the fact that you listed December right after I posted. But I had too much fun writing that. I probably do owe a slight apology there, but it sure was fun. That is a nice diagram. Wish I made it myself to be honest, I might have been slightly jealous.

Yes, it would have to speed up to make it around the longer loop in the same 24 hour period. This is yet another problem with the FE model. However, that wasn't the point of my post.

It has to move faster to cover more area in the same amount of time, but that still means it spends more time in the sky in December. The only inconsistency I see is with sun rise direction to be honest (FE Model); but it uses shady logic. The sun doesn't actually appear from over another continent, as the image you put will seem to show (illusion). Basic geometry, if I may borrow your image... What these people might see:

Proof I'm not a FE shill I made a mistake: old one I messed up:
http://i.imgur.com/r9OE9bA.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/r9OE9bA.jpg)

Real One:
(http://i.imgur.com/Jom6EQp.jpg)

The black lines are what these people in each city should see... not the rising from another continent. The sunrise and sunset are time-based, not location based in the image you provided. Unless like you said I am missing the point entirely. Simple geometry. Although that leaves the issue of sunset direction for the FE model it seems, so my diagram may be incorrect.

As you admit, that scale is incorrect and not official FE Map. So we are both shooting in the dark on that one. In FE model, as I stated above, in winter the sun moves much, much slower in the 'southern hemisphere'. So the daylight cycle is accurate on both model's as far as I can tell; that's not a problem with the FE model, nor the globe. The sun gives the Southern Hemisphere more December love in both models. Though for People in Punta, I imagine the sun seems to move VERY slow considering that margin of window they have.

I am fairly sure I did not imply anything of the sort. Even if I did, how on earth would that prove that the earth is flat? I merely plotted the location of the sun during sunrise/sunset for each city, based on the amount of daylight they receive. The goal was to highlight some geometric problems with the flat earth model.

Regardless, the FE model implies that it appears to go 'slower' in southern hemisphere, due to more area to cover. This argument automatically implies that at the outset. It's not an argument otherwise. I should have said 'proof of longer days this time of year favors neither flat earth nor globe model' instead of 'if anything it proves flat earth'. I meant, it's not an argument for or against either model, as both models sufficiently account for it.

Nope! Looks like both models check out. Though it looks a little funny for sunset direction on FE model. The downside of not having a official FE map, maybe? I'm assuming it has to do with sunrise/sunset angles on globe model assuming the lat/long gets smaller on globe, when in fact, they get larger on FE model, meaning a translation is required. I may simply be missing something, I admit.

#TIL
You blithely say "Though it looks a little funny for sunset direction on FE model."

No, it's not a little funny, it's massively wrong.

The simple fact that Flat Earther's will not address is the in the south of the Equator at the Summer Equinox the sun rises south of East.
Just a few places:
Location
     
Sunrise Azimuth
     
FE Sunrise Dir
Brisbane, Australia
     
117°, or 27° South of East
     
     
I know this one, I live here!
São Paulo, Brazil
     
115°, or 25° South of East
     
23°, or 67° North of East
Puntas Arenas, Chile
     
133°, or 43° South of East
     
39°, 51° North of East

To me this is quite a big argument against the FE theory of the sun's movement, and ultimately against the whole FE hypothesis.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: nametaken on August 16, 2016, 01:31:09 AM
The simple fact that Flat Earther's will not address is the in the south of the Equator at the Summer Equinox the sun rises south of East.
Just a few places:
Location
     
Sunrise Azimuth
     
FE Sunrise Dir
Brisbane, Australia
     
117°, or 27° South of East
     
     
I know this one, I live here!
São Paulo, Brazil
     
115°, or 25° South of East
     
23°, or 67° North of East
Puntas Arenas, Chile
     
133°, or 43° South of East
     
39°, 51° North of East

To me this is quite a big argument against the FE theory of the sun's movement, and ultimately against the whole FE hypothesis.

Heh. Can't hold a debate without both perspectives is all.

As I already stated, the difference here we are all ignoring is the fact that 'degree' doesn't mean anything on the FE!

FE degrees are different from Globe degrees in Southern Hemisphere due to lattitude/longitude getting longer instead of shorter. That's all. It's a matter of translation. Don't ask me for the translation! I wouldn't know. I don't defend the FE model, only misrepresentations of it. I never went so far as to learn this 'translation'.

Example:

(http://www.learner.org/jnorth/images/graphics/mclass/Lat_Long.gif)

flat earth would be more like this:

http://i65.tinypic.com/1zbqv79.png


I know I'm the only one arguing for the FE model. I'm not claiming to be FE'r. I'm just pointing out the misrepresentation of the FE model. Actually, this argument has a better smoking gun against the flat earth, I was thinking about making a topic on myself. It is this; yes the sun works funny in the southern hemisphere. But if the sun works funny... the stars are a bloody circus. I have wasted a lot of time trying to figure out how the southern hemisphere (or hell, the equatorial at that) stars work in the FE model for months... and I'm not better off. Here is a good example (https://youtu.be/0C1SkFiWGcM?t=3m26s) (starts at 3:26. To prevent going off topic, I can make a separate thread if anyone wants to share their humorous reactions to this.

For personal tastes, I like to use both models when I approach understanding of things. However like many others, I am still a dabbler on the FE model, but don't mind pointing out mistakes where I find them. That is golden  ;D
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on August 16, 2016, 06:11:50 AM
First of all, there is no need to apologize. I suspect Rama misread your comment.

As I already stated, the difference here we are all ignoring is the fact that 'degree' doesn't mean anything on the FE!

Sure it does. A "degree" is just a unit of measurement of angles. In this case, it means the exact same thing on the flat earth as it does on the round earth. Both models have a North. The degree that the sun rises/sets at is measured as an angle from due North. We aren't talking about latitude/longitude degrees. The fact that the measured angle doesn't agree with the model's angle is hard evidence that the model is wrong.

Quote
I know I'm the only one arguing for the FE model. I'm not claiming to be FE'r. I'm just pointing out the misrepresentation of the FE model. Actually, this argument has a better smoking gun against the flat earth, I was thinking about making a topic on myself. It is this; yes the sun works funny in the southern hemisphere. But if the sun works funny... the stars are a bloody circus.

Yep. The south celestial pole is the next item on my agenda. :)

Yes, it would have to speed up to make it around the longer loop in the same 24 hour period. This is yet another problem with the FE model. However, that wasn't the point of my post.

It has to move faster to cover more area in the same amount of time, but that still means it spends more time in the sky in December. The only inconsistency I see is with sun rise direction to be honest (FE Model); but it uses shady logic. The sun doesn't actually appear from over another continent, as the image you put will seem to show (illusion). Basic geometry, if I may borrow your image... What these people might see:

I think you still completely missed the point of my post. Yes, the sun is physically over a different continent/ocean when it rises/sets for these cities. The outer yellow circle represents the physical path of the sun over a 24 hour period on December 21. Each spot represents the physical location of the sun when the corresponding city sees a sunrise or sunset.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: rabinoz on August 16, 2016, 11:57:47 AM
The simple fact that Flat Earther's will not address is the in the south of the Equator at the Summer Equinox the sun rises south of East.
Just a few places:
Location
     
Sunrise Azimuth
     
FE Sunrise Dir
Brisbane, Australia
     
117°, or 27° South of East
     
     
I know this one, I live here!
São Paulo, Brazil
     
115°, or 25° South of East
     
23°, or 67° North of East
Puntas Arenas, Chile
     
133°, or 43° South of East
     
39°, 51° North of East

To me this is quite a big argument against the FE theory of the sun's movement, and ultimately against the whole FE hypothesis.

Heh. Can't hold a debate without both perspectives is all.

As I already stated, the difference here we are all ignoring is the fact that 'degree' doesn't mean anything on the FE!

FE degrees are different from Globe degrees in Southern Hemisphere due to lattitude/longitude getting longer instead of shorter. That's all. It's a matter of translation. Don't ask me for the translation! I wouldn't know. I don't defend the FE model, only misrepresentations of it. I never went so far as to learn this 'translation'.

I haven't the time or inclination (I feel a bit like "death warmed up" at the moment), but I beg to differ on degrees being different on the flat earth map.

I have not been misrepresenting the FE position at all.

As on the Globe, on the flat earth map "parallels" of latitudes are measured north or south of the equator with the North Pole being 90° N and the limit of the "Ice Rim" being 90° S.
The meridians of longitude on the flat earth map are straight lines radiating from the North Pole, with 0° through Greenwich, exactly as on the globe.

The co-ordinates of any point on that map are the same in degrees of latitude and longitude as on the globe.  The spacing of latitude lines (close to 111 km per degree) is the same as on the globe, though the spacing of the lines of longitude continually increases from zero at the North Pole to a maximum at the "rim".
(http://www.learner.org/jnorth/images/graphics/mclass/Lat_Long.gif)
   
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w433/RabDownunder/FE%20Ice%20Wall%20Map%20-%20co-ords_zpssfzmbeef.jpg)
At a particular location, North is towards the North Pole and East is 90° clockwise from that.
In any case, I was interested if the difference in directions of sunrise on the FW map compared to what we actually observe and that difference is massive.

On the diagrams, you gave, the shapes of the earth are quite different, but the lat, long of any location is exactly the same numbers on each.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Rounder on August 16, 2016, 01:51:05 PM
As I already stated, the difference here we are all ignoring is the fact that 'degree' doesn't mean anything on the FE!

Sure it does. A "degree" is just a unit of measurement of angles. In this case, it means the exact same thing on the flat earth as it does on the round earth. Both models have a North. The degree that the sun rises/sets at is measured as an angle from due North. We aren't talking about latitude/longitude degrees.

Actually we are talking about lat and long degrees.  Your degree of latitude = the elevation angle of the sun on the equinox.  Even the Wiki agrees:
Quote
To locate your latitude on the flat earth, it's important to know the following fact: The degrees of the earth's latitude are based upon the angle of the sun in the sky at noon equinox.
That's why 0° N/S sits on the equator where the sun is directly overhead, and why 90° N/S sits at the poles where the sun is at a right angle to the observer. At 45 North or South from the equator, the sun will sit at an angle 45° in the sky. The angle of the sun past zenith is our latitude.
Knowing that as you recede North or South from the equator at equinox, the sun will descend at a pace of one degree per 69.5 miles, we can even derive our distance from the equator based upon the position of the sun in the sky.

One of the major problems with the FE model is the fact that on a flat surface the angle of elevation to a fixed object in the sky would not be a constant mileage per degree.  The further away from zero one travels north or south, the further you should have to travel to get another degree of elevation change to the sun.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Rama Set on August 16, 2016, 02:03:21 PM
First of all, there is no need to apologize. I suspect Rama misread your comment.

You are totally right.  Nametaken, I am the one who needs to apologize.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on August 16, 2016, 07:51:10 PM
As I already stated, the difference here we are all ignoring is the fact that 'degree' doesn't mean anything on the FE!

Sure it does. A "degree" is just a unit of measurement of angles. In this case, it means the exact same thing on the flat earth as it does on the round earth. Both models have a North. The degree that the sun rises/sets at is measured as an angle from due North. We aren't talking about latitude/longitude degrees.

Actually we are talking about lat and long degrees.  Your degree of latitude = the elevation angle of the sun on the equinox.  Even the Wiki agrees:

But we aren't talking about the equinox or the elevation angle of the sun. We are talking about the solstice, and the horizontal direction of sunset/sunrise. Sure, they are related. But you don't technically need a well defined  latitude/longitude system in order to measure the direction of sunset and sunrise. All you need is a well defined North. The flat earth model has a well defined North.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Rounder on August 16, 2016, 11:07:27 PM
But we aren't talking about the equinox or the elevation angle of the sun. We are talking about the solstice, and the horizontal direction of sunset/sunrise
Ah, yes, I went off topic.  You are correct.  And if I've understood their posts, nametaken agrees with you and me, to wit: the horizontal direction of sunrise/sunset observed in the real world does not match the direction predicted by the FE "solar spiral" model.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: nametaken on August 16, 2016, 11:59:38 PM
First of all, there is no need to apologize. I suspect Rama misread your comment.

Okay I thought so my bad.

I think you still completely missed the point of my post. Yes, the sun is physically over a different continent/ocean when it rises/sets for these cities. The outer yellow circle represents the physical path of the sun over a 24 hour period on December 21. Each spot represents the physical location of the sun when the corresponding city sees a sunrise or sunset.

Bingo. This... this is what I wasn't getting. Physical location. Very interesting. I am prone to confusion about perspective and actual location/motion on FE model, that is my bad. I'll put some clothes on (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes) then.

I haven't the time or inclination (I feel a bit like "death warmed up" at the moment), but I beg to differ on degrees being different on the flat earth map.

Hey... I see what you did there.

I have not been misrepresenting the FE position at all.

As on the Globe, on the flat earth map "parallels" of latitudes are measured north or south of the equator with the North Pole being 90° N and the limit of the "Ice Rim" being 90° S.
The meridians of longitude on the flat earth map are straight lines radiating from the North Pole, with 0° through Greenwich, exactly as on the globe.

The co-ordinates of any point on that map are the same in degrees of latitude and longitude as on the globe.  The spacing of latitude lines (close to 111 km per degree) is the same as on the globe, though the spacing of the lines of longitude continually increases from zero at the North Pole to a maximum at the "rim".

Hmm... I thought there would be different degree functioning. I suppose it makes sense if it is based on true North.

On the diagrams, you gave, the shapes of the earth are quite different, but the lat, long of any location is exactly the same numbers on each.

I really though spherical and planar geometry would function differently for some reason. Nope, degree from true North is the same from what I can tell.

One of the major problems with the FE model is the fact that on a flat surface the angle of elevation to a fixed object in the sky would not be a constant mileage per degree.  The further away from zero one travels north or south, the further you should have to travel to get another degree of elevation change to the sun.

Way above my head. My attempt at pun.

And if I've understood their posts, nametaken agrees with you and me, to wit: the horizontal direction of sunrise/sunset observed in the real world does not match the direction predicted by the FE "solar spiral" model.

I don't understand the parabolic reflection theory well enough to argue it. But I understand some of the more basic inconsistencies of the FE 'spiral' model; however, I seem to stand corrected on one point I was [wrong] about; the difference in a FE degree vs a Globe degree. That's all. I shouldn't have tried to argue a point I only thought I understood.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Rounder on August 17, 2016, 04:14:38 AM
I am prone to confusion about perspective and actual location/motion on FE model, that is my bad.

Not your fault; the model takes great liberties with how perspective actually works, which causes confusion for anybody who is used to thinking about perspective the way we are accustomed to.


One of the major problems with the FE model is the fact that on a flat surface the angle of elevation to a fixed object in the sky would not be a constant mileage per degree.  The further away from zero one travels north or south, the further you should have to travel to get another degree of elevation change to the sun.
Way above my head. My attempt at pun.
Perhaps an illustration will help. 
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c8jBnp7qbfxU1O7nkiZdvCJvr2lDjtG35BmqoYvc8Tn4Sweul0YBQ3Gs1dQP6YX2otoH6Ys7Z8DOjAaCm2fm5o-_aqxxSk412hLernIuI4v65vvjC81TPWrPCXDZXgnT-bOZ1dv0VvuPqfWpjzRyokc0frDeMkTckAuz8Ukhj18I8BdRcm9CxmnP2jb86SnUYyHoaFiLd6Ta71iu0DQszIdcl7i0YthWut4erc_QsNR1VST7y16YnfAjFJ0FYEI1pirHbgXHD3dOE98j0aO9OBQ4QL6lOa2wkEdGqXI3sJGCiy5fnIkJ3DYQ15lRjUVEbVHei3vs23BsvEzmzG4krepQ6L9SEqrppv-cY58XKIHpWFhmyw1-OuDXhw7jPf5T6dh9GXLDU7XTJZE6ZCwh_al8aMNJUx7TAvdXWB6A1lnVc98vKQLH91YAVDiWAkugdlWQzlRmijOXO1KpXwkBjMVefMRRmIfrGMrykYGpzmquO7-PmX0Mm6mONjR6llAJPbSctnD8AolHNEGtM1Nmaq3SRHrQGRP82RhfAeGpBEBRFEdzQy2rUKyA1kY-QsDKCalC_zO94xb-RmXjVZiSEdWibmnpFuGR5WOLjn2KFM344go3=w960-h720-no)
In the picture, let's start with observer B and his view of the sun.  He is at the magic 45° mark where his distance to the sub-solar point equals the distance up to the sun from a flat earth.  I've used the FE figure of 3000 miles (or as they would say, "about" 3000 miles).  3000 miles over 45° gives 66.7 miles per degree.  This figure does not hold true at any other distance, however.  Consider Observer A, half the distance to the sub-solar point.  His viewing angle is 63.4°, which means that from his spot to the sub-solar point one covers 26.6° of latitude (90 minus 63.4).  So for him, the miles per degree is less, quite a bit less in fact, at only 56.3 miles per degree.  Looking at Observers C and D, you see the pattern: the further away you go, the larger the miles per degree figure grows. 
The FE model attempts to address this problem by proposing an atmospheric optical effect that would refract the sun's light very severely in order to lower its apparent elevation in the sky to a position lower than what I have shown in my figure.  This attempt fails to address the left-to-right shift in apparent solar position that would also be required for observation to match the FE model.

I don't understand the parabolic reflection theory well enough to argue it.
Not sure what you are referring to here.


I shouldn't have tried to argue a point I only thought I understood.
Naw, you're fine.  The more you participate, the more you will understand.  I have quite enjoyed doing some of the research I have needed to bolster my belief in the RE side and refute the FE arguments.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: İntikam on September 08, 2016, 06:47:36 PM
The time of sunrising and sunsetting are almost wrong. They are theorical and depends on a calculating on round earth projections. For example in Istanbul sun rising time as official time is usually earlier then the real. Sometimes we are waking up on a time almost night. Because that time announcing as sunrising time and workplaces starting to work a time that earlier then sun rising.

So the times you show are completely wrong. So your theory is wrong.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Rounder on September 09, 2016, 06:04:47 AM
The time of sunrising and sunsetting are almost wrong. They are theorical and depends on a calculating on round earth projections. For example in Istanbul sun rising time as official time is usually earlier then the real. Sometimes we are waking up on a time almost night. Because that time announcing as sunrising time and workplaces starting to work a time that earlier then sun rising.

So the times you show are completely wrong. So your theory is wrong.
A testable claim, that's quite helpful!  Please share with us a link to your source, the one providing these incorrect times.  I would like to compare them with the projected times provided by the timeanddate.com web site for Istanbul (https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/turkey/istanbul), and then I will observe sunrise and sunset in Istanbul via webcam to see how far off these incorrect projected times are from the actual observed events.

Here's a candidate webcam (https://www.webcam-4insiders.com/en/weather-Istanbul-Webcam/13979-Webcam-Istanbul-weather.php) for example, although it doesn't have the greatest view.  Sunrise is dead ahead, except there's a building right in the way; sunset is exactly behind the camera.  It gives an approximation though, because you CAN see the sky change color.  The time stamps on the images are off by an hour: as I write this it is 8:40 AM in Istanbul according to timeanddate.com, but the time stamp on the most recent image is 7:36 AM.  I suspect the camera or its software didn't get the memo that Turkey is not doing the "fall back" time change, opting for a permanent "spring forward" (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/08/turkey-to-stay-on-summer-time-all-year-round) from now on.  (Good for you, Turkey, and I wish my country would do the same!). 

Anyway: sunset last night was projected to be at 7:25 pm, and the sky darkened at about 7:45 (18:45 camera time), so 20 minutes late.  Sunrise this morning was projected at 6:39 am, and the sky brightened at about 6:04 (5:04 camera time), or about 30 minutes early.  I suspect that the late darkness is twilight after the sun set, and the early brightness is the pre-dawn, and the projected sunrise/sunset times are pretty close to the actual events.  To prove it I need to find a webcam that has a direct view of sunrise, and another with a direct view of sunset.  İntikam, do you know of any?
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: rabinoz on September 09, 2016, 07:01:07 AM
The time of sunrising and sunsetting are almost wrong. They are theorical and depends on a calculating on round earth projections. For example in Istanbul sun rising time as official time is usually earlier then the real. Sometimes we are waking up on a time almost night. Because that time announcing as sunrising time and workplaces starting to work a time that earlier then sun rising.

So the times you show are completely wrong. So your theory is wrong.

So the times "of sunrising and sunsetting are almost wrong". What do you mean by "almost wrong?

Yoy claim "For example in Istanbul sun rising time as official time is usually earlier then the real."

Please show us some official sunrise times and times you claim that the sun actually rose.

Where I live the observed sunrise times are a few minutes later than the "official times".

The reason for that is that the "official times" are based on sunrise over a sea-level horizon, but the land East of us is a little above our property, so our sunrise is a few minutes later.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 17, 2016, 01:27:54 PM
I am prone to confusion about perspective and actual location/motion on FE model, that is my bad.

Not your fault; the model takes great liberties with how perspective actually works, which causes confusion for anybody who is used to thinking about perspective the way we are accustomed to.


One of the major problems with the FE model is the fact that on a flat surface the angle of elevation to a fixed object in the sky would not be a constant mileage per degree.  The further away from zero one travels north or south, the further you should have to travel to get another degree of elevation change to the sun.
Way above my head. My attempt at pun.
Perhaps an illustration will help. 
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c8jBnp7qbfxU1O7nkiZdvCJvr2lDjtG35BmqoYvc8Tn4Sweul0YBQ3Gs1dQP6YX2otoH6Ys7Z8DOjAaCm2fm5o-_aqxxSk412hLernIuI4v65vvjC81TPWrPCXDZXgnT-bOZ1dv0VvuPqfWpjzRyokc0frDeMkTckAuz8Ukhj18I8BdRcm9CxmnP2jb86SnUYyHoaFiLd6Ta71iu0DQszIdcl7i0YthWut4erc_QsNR1VST7y16YnfAjFJ0FYEI1pirHbgXHD3dOE98j0aO9OBQ4QL6lOa2wkEdGqXI3sJGCiy5fnIkJ3DYQ15lRjUVEbVHei3vs23BsvEzmzG4krepQ6L9SEqrppv-cY58XKIHpWFhmyw1-OuDXhw7jPf5T6dh9GXLDU7XTJZE6ZCwh_al8aMNJUx7TAvdXWB6A1lnVc98vKQLH91YAVDiWAkugdlWQzlRmijOXO1KpXwkBjMVefMRRmIfrGMrykYGpzmquO7-PmX0Mm6mONjR6llAJPbSctnD8AolHNEGtM1Nmaq3SRHrQGRP82RhfAeGpBEBRFEdzQy2rUKyA1kY-QsDKCalC_zO94xb-RmXjVZiSEdWibmnpFuGR5WOLjn2KFM344go3=w960-h720-no)
In the picture, let's start with observer B and his view of the sun.  He is at the magic 45° mark where his distance to the sub-solar point equals the distance up to the sun from a flat earth.  I've used the FE figure of 3000 miles (or as they would say, "about" 3000 miles).  3000 miles over 45° gives 66.7 miles per degree.  This figure does not hold true at any other distance, however.  Consider Observer A, half the distance to the sub-solar point.  His viewing angle is 63.4°, which means that from his spot to the sub-solar point one covers 26.6° of latitude (90 minus 63.4).  So for him, the miles per degree is less, quite a bit less in fact, at only 56.3 miles per degree.  Looking at Observers C and D, you see the pattern: the further away you go, the larger the miles per degree figure grows. 
The FE model attempts to address this problem by proposing an atmospheric optical effect that would refract the sun's light very severely in order to lower its apparent elevation in the sky to a position lower than what I have shown in my figure.  This attempt fails to address the left-to-right shift in apparent solar position that would also be required for observation to match the FE model.

I don't understand the parabolic reflection theory well enough to argue it.
Not sure what you are referring to here.


I shouldn't have tried to argue a point I only thought I understood.
Naw, you're fine.  The more you participate, the more you will understand.  I have quite enjoyed doing some of the research I have needed to bolster my belief in the RE side and refute the FE arguments.

That math is inaccurate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0Gx1vD1CRE
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Rounder on September 17, 2016, 06:08:59 PM
That math is inaccurate.
No, it's not.  What is "inaccurate" is the scale estimates in your favorite visual phenomenon, perspective lines.  The demonstration in the video using horizontal slats on a wall, which appear to all come together at a vanishing point?  The distance in the axis he calls Z (typical convention is X and Y are horizontal axes and Z is the vertical, but whatever) compared to the distance from the bottom horizontal slat to the top one is a MUCH greater ratio than the corresponding distance to the sun circling above a flat earth.  Even at the best case for your scenario, midnight of the December Sostice on Hornos Island (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornos_Island) off South America at 55.9° south with the sun all the way around the disc at 23.3° south, the horizontal distance to the sun (calculated using the wiki-approved 69.5 miles per dgree (http://wiki.tfes.org/Finding_your_Latitude_and_Longitude) figure) is still only 18,000 miles, or just over six times as far away horizontally as it is high.  That's nowhere near enough distance for the claimed perspective effects to be enough, and the numbers are even worse for you at sunrise and sunset.

And that's completely aside from the fact that the slats in his photo get obviously much "smaller" as they approach the vanishing point, which the sun does NOT do. 

(Edited to correct my math)
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 17, 2016, 08:43:01 PM
No, it's not.  What is "inaccurate" is the scale estimates in your favorite visual phenomenon, perspective lines.  The demonstration in the video using horizontal slats on a wall, which appear to all come together at a vanishing point?  The distance in the axis he calls Z (typical convention is X and Y are horizontal axes and Z is the vertical, but whatever) compared to the distance from the bottom horizontal slat to the top one is a MUCH greater ratio than the corresponding distance to the sun circling above a flat earth.  Even at the best case for your scenario, midnight of the December Sostice on Hornos Island (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornos_Island) off South America at 55.9° south with the sun all the way around the disc at 23.3° south, the horizontal distance to the sun (calculated using the wiki-approved 69.5 miles per dgree (http://wiki.tfes.org/Finding_your_Latitude_and_Longitude) figure) is still only 18,000 miles, or just over six times as far away horizontally as it is high.  That's nowhere near enough distance for the claimed perspective effects to be enough, and the numbers are even worse for you at sunrise and sunset.

Your math is not reality, and merely an artificial side view representation of the scene. In reality all parallel lines are seen to touch at the vanishing point.

If we extend your side view scene into forever the sun will never touch the ground. There is no perspective point where things touch. This is a proof that the method used is fallacious.

Quote
And that's completely aside from the fact that the slats in his photo get obviously much "smaller" as they approach the vanishing point, which the sun does NOT do. 

(Edited to correct my math)

This is addressed here: http://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Rounder on September 18, 2016, 05:14:17 AM
xx[/quote]

If we extend your side view scene into forever the sun will never touch the ground. There is no perspective point where things touch.
Yes, that's been our point all along.
This is a proof that the method used is fallacious.
No, it's proof that your view of perspective is wrong.  All the favorite examples of "parallel lines are seen to touch at the vanishing point" are many multiples of the distance between those parallel lines.  Railroad tracks "touch" miles away, or tens of thousands of times the width of the track.  Containers on a container ship "touch" far beyond the ship's bow, perhaps even beyond the horizon, which will also be hundreds or maybe thousands of container widths away.  That's how perspective works, it takes not merely great distance but great proportional distance.

Quote
And that's completely aside from the fact that the slats in his photo get obviously much "smaller" as they approach the vanishing point, which the sun does NOT do.

This is addressed here: http://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset
Well, it's talked about there, but I wouldn't say the round earth position has been adequatly addressed there.  But never mind that, if we're going to get into that again it belongs in its own thread; I should not have brought it up here.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on September 18, 2016, 05:14:42 PM
Ugh, not this stupid video again. Alrighty, time to do a post on how to measure angles 101. (Edit: relevant post (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5346.0))

This is addressed here: http://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset

Why on earth are you still touting that explanation? Did you forget about all the threads that completely debunked it? Do we really need to go through all that again?
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Southernhemispere on September 18, 2016, 08:15:41 PM
Tom. BIshop, try using the following with your perspective lines. Go to a nice flat desert, and draw parallel lines 3000 miles apart. Now stand on one of those lines and watch the lines converge due to perspective at the horizon. Problem? Oops, the other line is not visible. If you were able to see both lines and 9000 miles to the horizon on your flat earth, the angle from where you were standing to where the other line touched the horizon would still be about 20 degrees! To add to this, put a ball with a 30 mile diameter at the start and every 1000 miles on the one line, and see how it shrinks.
Alteratively, scale things down in proportion with the actual distance you can see to the horizon and you will get the same result. I dare you!

Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Southernhemispere on September 21, 2016, 05:21:43 PM
The time of sunrising and sunsetting are almost wrong. They are theorical and depends on a calculating on round earth projections. For example in Istanbul sun rising time as official time is usually earlier then the real. Sometimes we are waking up on a time almost night. Because that time announcing as sunrising time and workplaces starting to work a time that earlier then sun rising.

So the times you show are completely wrong. So your theory is wrong.

I find many of your responses utter rubbish on these forums. You just say things like "So the times you show are completely wrong.", just like a true flat earther, when you have failed to provide any substantial proof. Have you ever been to the Southern hemisphere? I live there and I can assure you that the sunrise and sunset times are correct. Have you ever watched sport or any other live event in the Southern hemisphere live on TV? For example, day/night cricket matches from Australia or South Africa? You could then confirm when the sun sets. Now you will probably say it is not live, but recorded earlier and the TV station are in on it too! But you can also follow the live scores live on cricinfo on the internet, so the whole internet is in on it also! In fact, everyone in the Southern hemisphere must be in on the conspiracy of day lengths, direct air flights, Antarctica bases, yacht races, etc! Yeah, the earth is flat and outer half of the world can't really exist because it does not make sense with any FE model of daylight hours that can explain it! We need to ship you and Tom BIshop to a base in Antarctica for a year to actually prove 24 hour daylight in December (and Eric Dubay to the ISS indefinitely).
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: rabinoz on September 21, 2016, 10:08:48 PM
The time of sunrising and sunsetting are almost wrong. They are theorical and depends on a calculating on round earth projections. For example in Istanbul sun rising time as official time is usually earlier then the real. Sometimes we are waking up on a time almost night. Because that time announcing as sunrising time and workplaces starting to work a time that earlier then sun rising.

So the times you show are completely wrong. So your theory is wrong.

I find many of your responses utter rubbish on these forums. You just say things like "So the times you show are completely wrong.", just like a true flat earther, when you have failed to provide any substantial proof. Have you ever been to the Southern hemisphere? I live there and I can assure you that the sunrise and sunset times are correct. Have you ever watched sport or any other live event in the Southern hemisphere live on TV? For example, day/night cricket matches from Australia or South Africa? You could then confirm when the sun sets. Now you will probably say it is not live, but recorded earlier and the TV station are in on it too! But you can also follow the live scores live on cricinfo on the internet, so the whole internet is in on it also! In fact, everyone in the Southern hemisphere must be in on the conspiracy of day lengths, direct air flights, Antarctica bases, yacht races, etc! Yeah, the earth is flat and outer half of the world can't really exist because it does not make sense with any FE model of daylight hours that can explain it! We need to ship you and Tom BIshop to a base in Antarctica for a year to actually prove 24 hour daylight in December (and Eric Dubay to the ISS indefinitely).
From another Southern Hemispherite: I would like to know how the mid-summer sun manages to rise well South of East, at 117° here.

On any Flat Earth "map[1]" it seems as though it should rise well North of even North East.

Maybe Rowbotham or Tom Bishop forgot to tell the sun! Those two seem to precedence over facts down here at least.

The Southern Hemisphere seems to be forgotten about or worse blatantly lied about continually.

[1]  ;) Wot map?  ;)
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: nametaken on September 23, 2016, 01:53:24 AM
I been thinking about this topic a lot lately, sorry for my late response.

Ofc shortly after my last post here, I realized that it makes sense for the sun (and moon) to rise 'further away' in Southern Hemisphere; the further away the more 'truly' you can see the orbit on a Flat Earth. Consider Antarctica; timelapses show the sun (and moon) moving horizontally; what you would expect to see in extreme Southern Hemisphere on a Flat Earth with a 'close sun'; you are seeing the actual orbit from an extreme angle, where the angle becomes apparent in the motion of the sun (and moon). Only in this manner does it make sense that you would see the 'sunrise' (and set) when the sun is 'farther away' in it's local 'geographical' center.

I'm having trouble finding all the examples I saw a few weeks ago online demonstrating the 'horizontal' orbit in AA, but here is one example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E09X6us_ulU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E09X6us_ulU)

I can't find the one that had a clear depiction of the sun and moon multiple times. There are famously a lot of hoax time lapses of Antarctica, and that further complicates research on the topic. I found several obvious hoaxes just searching 'Antarctica time lapse'; some having obvious splices (watch the shadows), others having the stars move in the exact pattern and speed as the 'moon', etc. Lots of hoaxes, all obvious.

Any thoughts? I just remember in this thread someone said it was absurd that the sun is on the 'other side' of the world when it rises in Southern Hemisphere, and I had the time to mull it over and chew on it, and it makes sense now to me on a Flat Plane, if the sun is close it would be noticeable and observable in Southern Hemisphere. Tangentially, it would make sense that it is so much colder in AA; which it is. The global record low temperatures are all in the antarctic.

Anyway the shape of FE debates are always ad hoc, so improvised responses can be hard, I guess. Sorry for being so late with this, I had to put a lot of thought into it.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: rabinoz on September 23, 2016, 08:15:51 AM
. . . . . . . . .
Any thoughts? I just remember in this thread someone said it was absurd that the sun is on the 'other side' of the world when it rises in Southern Hemisphere, and I had the time to mull it over and chew on it, and it makes sense now to me on a Flat Plane, if the sun is close it would be noticeable and observable in Southern Hemisphere. Tangentially, it would make sense that it is so much colder in AA; which it is. The global record low temperatures are all in the antarctic.

Anyway the shape of FE debates are always ad hoc, so improvised responses can be hard, I guess. Sorry for being so late with this, I had to put a lot of thought into it.

Remember that in mid-summer (21 Dec) McMurdo Station, Antarctica - (@ Lat, long of 77.8419° S, 166.6863° E) has daylight at around 1:50 AM on 21/Dec, with the sun due South,
Invercargill, New Zealand (@ Lat, long of 46.4132° S, 168.3538° E) is in complete darkness at the same time (sunset @ 9:39 PM, sunruse 5:50 AM).

Fits perfectly with the Globe, but please explain how this fits with your "musings".
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Southernhemispere on September 26, 2016, 07:28:05 PM
. . . . . . . . .
Any thoughts? I just remember in this thread someone said it was absurd that the sun is on the 'other side' of the world when it rises in Southern Hemisphere, and I had the time to mull it over and chew on it, and it makes sense now to me on a Flat Plane, if the sun is close it would be noticeable and observable in Southern Hemisphere. Tangentially, it would make sense that it is so much colder in AA; which it is. The global record low temperatures are all in the antarctic.

Anyway the shape of FE debates are always ad hoc, so improvised responses can be hard, I guess. Sorry for being so late with this, I had to put a lot of thought into it.

Remember that in mid-summer (21 Dec) McMurdo Station, Antarctica - (@ Lat, long of 77.8419° S, 166.6863° E) has daylight at around 1:50 AM on 21/Dec, with the sun due South,
Invercargill, New Zealand (@ Lat, long of 46.4132° S, 168.3538° E) is in complete darkness at the same time (sunset @ 9:39 PM, sunruse 5:50 AM).

Fits perfectly with the Globe, but please explain how this fits with your "musings".

You won't get a reasonable answer to this from FE,'ers. They will just say data is false or prove it.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: rabinoz on September 27, 2016, 08:54:39 PM
. . . . . . . . .
Any thoughts? I just remember in this thread someone said it was absurd that the sun is on the 'other side' of the world when it rises in Southern Hemisphere, and I had the time to mull it over and chew on it, and it makes sense now to me on a Flat Plane, if the sun is close it would be noticeable and observable in Southern Hemisphere. Tangentially, it would make sense that it is so much colder in AA; which it is. The global record low temperatures are all in the antarctic.

Anyway the shape of FE debates are always ad hoc, so improvised responses can be hard, I guess. Sorry for being so late with this, I had to put a lot of thought into it.

Remember that in mid-summer (21 Dec) McMurdo Station, Antarctica - (@ Lat, long of 77.8419° S, 166.6863° E) has daylight at around 1:50 AM on 21/Dec, with the sun due South,
Invercargill, New Zealand (@ Lat, long of 46.4132° S, 168.3538° E) is in complete darkness at the same time (sunset @ 9:39 PM, sunruse 5:50 AM).

Fits perfectly with the Globe, but please explain how this fits with your "musings".

You won't get a reasonable answer to this from FE,'ers. They will just say data is false or prove it.
And I don't suppose observations of those that live here count.

They certainly don't with İntikam, who literally accused me of lying for claiming I could look out the back door and see the Southern Cross circle clockwise around the SCP!
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: nametaken on September 28, 2016, 02:25:10 PM
. . . . . . . . .
Any thoughts? I just remember in this thread someone said it was absurd that the sun is on the 'other side' of the world when it rises in Southern Hemisphere, and I had the time to mull it over and chew on it, and it makes sense now to me on a Flat Plane, if the sun is close it would be noticeable and observable in Southern Hemisphere. Tangentially, it would make sense that it is so much colder in AA; which it is. The global record low temperatures are all in the antarctic.

Anyway the shape of FE debates are always ad hoc, so improvised responses can be hard, I guess. Sorry for being so late with this, I had to put a lot of thought into it.

Remember that in mid-summer (21 Dec) McMurdo Station, Antarctica - (@ Lat, long of 77.8419° S, 166.6863° E) has daylight at around 1:50 AM on 21/Dec, with the sun due South,
Invercargill, New Zealand (@ Lat, long of 46.4132° S, 168.3538° E) is in complete darkness at the same time (sunset @ 9:39 PM, sunruse 5:50 AM).

Fits perfectly with the Globe, but please explain how this fits with your "musings".

Well that's what that spare cloth you get with nice pants is for, I recently found out; to test wash and see how it reacts to washing. Always test that before throwing the whole thing in. Hard lesson for me it seems, but I'm getting there. Of course, would have to go there to verify. I prefer more warm and humid climates though, so I'll be setting this one aside for now. Can't find any more objections here. Nice strong impression.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Rounder on September 28, 2016, 04:45:38 PM
Of course, would have to go there to verify. I prefer more warm and humid climates though, so I'll be setting this one aside for now.

There are plenty of warm, humid locations in South America.  You don't have to go all the way to Antarctica to observe how the southern hemisphere experience refutes the flat earth model.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: TotesNotReptilian on September 28, 2016, 05:06:45 PM
Of course, would have to go there to verify. I prefer more warm and humid climates though, so I'll be setting this one aside for now.

There are plenty of warm, humid locations in South America.  You don't have to go all the way to Antarctica to observe how the southern hemisphere experience refutes the flat earth model.

I hear the Amazon Rain Forest is slightly warm and humid.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Southernhemispere on September 30, 2016, 03:47:02 PM
Of course, would have to go there to verify. I prefer more warm and humid climates though, so I'll be setting this one aside for now.

There are plenty of warm, humid locations in South America.  You don't have to go all the way to Antarctica to observe how the southern hemisphere experience refutes the flat earth model.

I hear the Amazon Rain Forest is slightly warm and humid.

Durban South Africa has over 14 hours sunshine on 21 December plus 3 hours of twilight, and I can assure you it will be warm and humid at that time of year.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: nametaken on October 02, 2016, 11:13:27 PM
. . . . . . . . .
Any thoughts? I just remember in this thread someone said it was absurd that the sun is on the 'other side' of the world when it rises in Southern Hemisphere, and I had the time to mull it over and chew on it, and it makes sense now to me on a Flat Plane, if the sun is close it would be noticeable and observable in Southern Hemisphere. Tangentially, it would make sense that it is so much colder in AA; which it is. The global record low temperatures are all in the antarctic.

Anyway the shape of FE debates are always ad hoc, so improvised responses can be hard, I guess. Sorry for being so late with this, I had to put a lot of thought into it.

Remember that in mid-summer (21 Dec) McMurdo Station, Antarctica - (@ Lat, long of 77.8419° S, 166.6863° E) has daylight at around 1:50 AM on 21/Dec, with the sun due South,
Invercargill, New Zealand (@ Lat, long of 46.4132° S, 168.3538° E) is in complete darkness at the same time (sunset @ 9:39 PM, sunruse 5:50 AM).

Fits perfectly with the Globe, but please explain how this fits with your "musings".

Huh, I forgot to mention, this is impossible not only on the Flat Earth but the globe as well.

"Earth's obliquity oscillates between 22.1 and 24.5 degrees on a 41,000-year cycle. It is currently 23°26′13.6″ (or 23.43711°) and decreasing." - wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_tilt).

Maybe my calculations are wrong (I'm using 2 balls as physical representation), but I checked in google earth as well. With a 23 degree tilt, there is no way the sun will ever be viewed as "in the south" much farther south than the tropic of Capricorn. This not only disproves Flat Earth sun mechanics, but Globe as well!

Maybe I'm wrong but this is what I'm seeing; the claim that the sun is viewed due south from Antarctica would require a near-full 90 degree tilt! From the other side of the ball, looking south, it matches up. McMurdo Station, Antarctica on the other side in December, I assume? Well obviously it must be. It matches up like that. In which case disregard. It does go south due to rotation on the 23 degree axis. I was going to delete this post but in case someone is responding, yeah I went there.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: rabinoz on October 03, 2016, 12:04:06 AM
. . . . . . . . .
Any thoughts? I just remember in this thread someone said it was absurd that the sun is on the 'other side' of the world when it rises in Southern Hemisphere, and I had the time to mull it over and chew on it, and it makes sense now to me on a Flat Plane, if the sun is close it would be noticeable and observable in Southern Hemisphere. Tangentially, it would make sense that it is so much colder in AA; which it is. The global record low temperatures are all in the antarctic.

Anyway the shape of FE debates are always ad hoc, so improvised responses can be hard, I guess. Sorry for being so late with this, I had to put a lot of thought into it.

Remember that in mid-summer (21 Dec) McMurdo Station, Antarctica - (@ Lat, long of 77.8419° S, 166.6863° E) has daylight at around 1:50 AM on 21/Dec, with the sun due South,
Invercargill, New Zealand (@ Lat, long of 46.4132° S, 168.3538° E) is in complete darkness at the same time (sunset @ 9:39 PM, sunruse 5:50 AM).

Fits perfectly with the Globe, but please explain how this fits with your "musings".

Huh, I forgot to mention, this is impossible not only on the Flat Earth but the globe as well.

"Earth's obliquity oscillates between 22.1 and 24.5 degrees on a 41,000-year cycle. It is currently 23°26′13.6″ (or 23.43711°) and decreasing." - wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_tilt).

Maybe my calculations are wrong (I'm using 2 balls as physical representation), but I checked in google earth as well. With a 23 degree tilt, there is no way the sun will ever be viewed as "in the south" much farther south than the tropic of Capricorn. This not only disproves Flat Earth sun mechanics, but Globe as well!

Maybe I'm wrong but this is what I'm seeing; the claim that the sun is viewed due south from Antarctica would require a near-full 90 degree tilt! From the other side looking south, it matches up. McMurdo Station, Antarctica on the other side in December, I assume?

You claim "this is impossible not only on the Flat Earth but the globe as well". Really I don't think there is any problem with the globe.

You must remember that the sun's distance from the earth is very much greater than the diameter of the earth, about 11,700 times! This makes it a bit hard maling or drawing to scale.

But, you don't need "2 balls as physical representation" as you already have one - the sun

Wikipedia gives these crude diagrams of the northern and southern summer solstice angles
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/Earth-lighting-summer-solstice_EN.png/1200px-Earth-lighting-summer-solstice_EN.png)
Illumination of Earth by Sun at the northern solstice.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Earth-lighting-winter-solstice_EN.png/1200px-Earth-lighting-winter-solstice_EN.png)
Illumination of Earth by Sun at the southern solstice.

It is easy to see on that diagram how:
On the Antarctic Circle the sun "rises" due south, at 00:00 local time, reaches a maximum elevation of about 47° at 12:00 (noon) and "sets" due south
At the South Pole the sun circles at an elevation of about 23.5°.

According to    SunEarthTools.com (http://www.sunearthtools.com/dp/tools/pos_sun.php)
at McMurdo station, 77.8419° S, 166.6863° E, on 21/December/2015:
at 23:51 local time the sun was at an elevation of 11.28° and azimuth of 180° (due south) and
at 11:51 local time the sun was at an elevation of 35.59° and azimuth of 0° (due north).

These all fit with what I would expect on the globe, but would appear quite impossibel on the "Ice Wall" map Flat Earth Model.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: Southernhemispere on October 17, 2016, 02:34:33 PM
Again, indisputable, so FE silenced! The simple fact is that the Southern Hemisphere is a complete embarrassment to FE'ers! Their model could never work on what is observed from, or distances travelled in, the Southern Hemisphere! I propose a new flat earth map. It is actually 2 maps, one with the current map up to the equator and a second one for the Southern Hemisphere with Antarctica in the center, but they are linked together on the equator by a dimensional rift so that you can travel between the maps via the equator, and sunlight is also able to skip dimensions. Oh crap, someone may take this seriously.
Title: Re: Length of a day in the Southern Hemisphere in December
Post by: rabinoz on October 17, 2016, 11:50:52 PM
Again, indisputable, so FE silenced! The simple fact is that the Southern Hemisphere is a complete embarrassment to FE'ers! Their model could never work on what is observed from, or distances travelled in, the Southern Hemisphere! I propose a new flat earth map. It is actually 2 maps, one with the current map up to the equator and a second one for the Southern Hemisphere with Antarctica in the center, but they are linked together on the equator by a dimensional rift so that you can travel between the maps via the equator, and sunlight is also able to skip dimensions. Oh crap, someone may take this seriously.

Maybe I should emulate narcberry who is currently making lots of completely unsupported FE "pronouncements on TheFlatEarthSociety.org like:
The sun after/before twilight is behind a lot more of earths atmosphere than the stars are, the stars emit different light, and i don't know why I'm having to explain any of this.
That doesn't explain how the sun stays the same size as it supposedly moves away, perspective dictates it would get smaller.  Nor does it explain how the sun gradually dips below the horizon instead of blending with it.  In fact I can't really see what it does explain.

The sun is a convex mirror reflecting starlight along a uniform path - that unique optical property makes it appear the same size at varying distances.
Then claims "Clear victory for FE".
Evidence, evidence wot evidence, who needs evidence?
Wow!