101

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: June 15, 2020, 04:48:23 AM »

He shouldn't have resisted...

I don’t think this is even relevant. Resisting arrest isn’t a capital crime and unless there is a genuine threat to the life of the officers, there is no justification for killing someone resisting arrest. It shouldn’t really be brought up because it can only help to reinforce the police mindset that precedents like Graham have helped to make prevalent.

I didn't say any of this was justified period, let alone because he was "resisting". Please don't think that I meant otherwise. I was simply saying there wasn't any reason to resist - why do it? Perhaps I don't understand because I'm a privileged white guy. I don't know what someone goes through who is constantly profiled, and worse - American media makes black people out to be violent criminals. It's really messed up.

Resisting or not, the fact that the officer shot him in the back completely nullifies any defense for the x-officer. There was absolutely no cause for that.

Edit:

hmmmmm.... And it suddenly becomes clear why you say it isn't relevant.... I get it...

102

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: June 15, 2020, 04:39:15 AM »

Sorry, I meant to reply to this, even if it is somewhat tangential:

My personal experience with prison/jail guards is pretty much inline with the Stanford Prison Experiment. You can also see this play out in reality - heard of #metoo?

The whole point of the experiment was that they weren't real guards or real prisoners, so how could your experience in a real prison back it up? I don't doubt that the guards were cruel and the prisoners were desperate, but there's nothing connecting that to the experiment's supposed conclusion of how having power turns you bad and deep down everyone is like that beyond the experiment itself. It might be true, but the experiment that supposedly proved it was bullshit. I regret only posting that comic in response to you, because it's really only the tip of the iceberg. Here's a more in-depth breakdown:

https://gen.medium.com/the-lifespan-of-a-lie-d869212b1f62

If Zimbardo had been sincere from the start, the experiment would still be worthless. But he wasn't even sincere. He was looking for attention and fame the whole time, and that's how he approached the "experiment." It has no scientific value whatsoever, and people need to stop citing it uncritically.

Thank you for the article, I want to read it all, and I will when I have more time. I did want to at least respond by saying I do understand that this experiment was not good science, and you're right, it really can't be used for any good defense. Regardless I do feel, in some ways, that power corrupts people, and it is easy for people with power to abuse it. Anecdotally as it may be, I don't think I feel this way due to the zimbardo experiment. I think it's more likely I feel this way due to the societal class with which I associate, and my personal experiences.

103

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Is God possible?

« on: June 15, 2020, 04:09:36 AM »

Good question.  Yet lets ask the question in a different way.

"Is there any known thing that exists that is observable and quantifiable which is patently inexplicable?"

As an extreme example, what if you dumped out a bucket of 5,000 marbles accidentally and when they came to rest they formed a perfect smiley face along with your name and birthday spelled out!

Such an example will expose a persons convenient disinterest in the difference between accidental, incidental, coincidental, anecdotal, improbable, implausible and impossible.

If you have, let's say, one million sets of marbles, with 5,000 in each: then you dump them out in their sets,  I'd bet willing to bet you'd see at least one smiley face in there somewhere. It might take another billion or so to get your birthday and name right.... when possibilities are endless, anything is possible.

104

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 13, 2020, 05:42:19 PM »

He has all the characteristics of a serious narcissistic personality disorder. Seriously.
Look them up and tell me Trump doesn’t display them.

He truly does. There is now a documentary surrounding Trump's past that lead up to his running for President. It's called "Trump: An American Dream". Some of Trump's closest allies have stated him to by very sociopathic in his personality. Stating that they aren't sure what his values are, or whether he even has any. Trump doesn't seem to distinguish between right and wrong, only what's good for himself.

Trump, at one point, had a personal assistant who's sole responsibility was to collect news articles about Trump, so that Trump could read them.

Trump's favorite subject is 'Trump'. He doesn't care what's right or wrong, only that he is in the spotlight and that people are talking about him. These are the reasons it is so easy for Trump to say whatever he wants, he's getting attention from it, and he injects it like a heroin addict.

105

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: June 13, 2020, 05:21:03 PM »

In today's news, Atlanta police have summarily executed yet another unarmed coloured man, for the heinous crimes of A - falling asleep in his car, B - failing a "field sobriety test" and C - running away.

Shot in the back up to three times as he ran. Multiple witnesses, multiple cellphone videos from different angles

https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/13/atlanta-police-fatally-shoot-black-man-wendys/

He shouldn't have resisted, but he also shouldn't have been shot. He didn't have a weapon, wasn't threatening the police; just trying to get away. I'm sorry the officers have to deal with the unknown in often dangerous situations, but if you can't handle a little skirmish without drawing your pistol as a first reaction, you shouldn't be exposing yourself to violent situations - I think a desk job is more right for you.

Edit:

The mentality of, "do what I say or I'll shoot you", is the problem here.

106

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 13, 2020, 04:27:42 PM »

I haven't heard the negative people here say one objectively positive thing about Trump; only pure forced negativity.

I've tried to find something objectively positive to say about him, unfortunately, the words positive and negative themselves are quite subjective words in the meaning of good or bad.

I oppose most of the policies Trump has signed, and I can't get behind his hateful rhetoric - objectively, the dissonance that he forces on American's is psychologically harmful.

The best thing I can say about him is that he isn't an ordinary politician, which I used to think was a good thing - thanks to Trump, I'm no longer certain of this.

107

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 13, 2020, 03:23:49 PM »

REEEEEEEE

There is nothing wrong with Trump.

Is this your opinion? Objectively, Trump is a compulsive liar. Is there nothing wrong with that?

He's an attentive and thoughtful president who loves America. The problem is generally on your part. The problem is that you are a part of some weird cult which must make these Orange Man Bad arguments as an axiom of faith. I haven't heard the negative people here say one objectively positive thing about Trump; only pure forced negativity.

This cult has always been on the wrong side of history. It was the party of slavery, the party of Jim Crow laws, and the party which opposed Civil Rights. If one side is the party of law and order, this one is the party of crime. A party which claims that the other side are fascists while simultaneously seeking to impose facism and censorship. A party which has few redeeming qualities, and has always been founded on hatred for America.

A party which has no real intelligible platform except to incorrectly call other people racists and facists to try to make teenagers idealize them as moral champions. It is all very pathetic. The party has gotten so extreme in recent years that it is no longer a viable political party. Trump won and these false riots and false pandemic overstep tactics and false moral outrage are the symptoms of a dying movement performing one increasingly extreme act after another to drum up some kind of 'emotional' public support, as it struggles for life.

Cult? If you're making this about partisanship, don't forget that Trump was originally going to run for the reform party, not the republican party. The only reason Trump ran as a republican is because that is how he saw himself winning - it has never been about anything more than winning for Donald.

I understand there have been many poor laws passed in this country, by both parties. Remember the patriot act that was signed into law by a republican president? It was further extended this past March by the republican senate. In fact they further added the ability for Feds to search people's browser history without a warrant. This was a republican move, so let's not get into a debate about which party is more or less for civil rights.

Edit:

Also, you have failed to answer the question of "why do you support Trump?". It seems clear that you are anti-democratic, which is fine, but all you have said is that if you don't support Trump you are part of an Orange-man-bad cult......

Your response is nothing more than a hypocritical rant - the question was "why do you support Trump?" not "Why don't you like anti-Trumpers?"

108

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 13, 2020, 01:45:15 AM »

. But Trump isn't just Trump, he's the president, and that's how he should be judged.

109

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 12, 2020, 10:53:23 PM »

We don't have a lot of serious Trump support here. Tom is a troll and totallackey is...totallackey. Rushy is about the closest thing to a sincere Trump supporter we have here, and here's what he said a year and a half ago on the same subject:

Trump was the only one willing to admit we're in a trade war with China, we have been for decades, and the only one willing to take serious steps against it.

Trump was the only one willing to draw down in countries like Syria and avoid the Libya debacle entirely.

Trump was the only one willing to loudly proclaim that we should, in fact, not flood our border with uneducated hordes of third world people.

Trump was the only one willing to tell NATO that they should stop demanding the US do something about Russia when they can't even bother to maintain their own defense forces. The Pentagon projected that without the US, the combined forces of NATO would LOSE a conventional war against Russia. Russia's GDP is only a fraction of the EU's! That's disgraceful.

Trump refused the UN migration treaty and refused the Paris Climate Change agreement, both of which were merely ways to take American taxpayer money and distribute it to other nations with no real way of ensuring it is used to do anything other than line foreign pockets. People need to stop falling for the "moral high ground" meme. If a treaty is wrapped up in the morality of "well you need to sign this or you'll look really bad!" then be very suspicious of the fine print. These agreements are usually a trojan horse. The Paris Climate Change agreement is about climate change as much as the People's Republic of China is a republic.


Trump isn't the perfect conservative, but he was better than the other tools who would be Bush 2.0 and start throwing money to other nations and invading the Middle East like it was a god-given right. Trump is doing so many things right that even Fox has started to hate on him quite a bit. I love it. I love anyone that each media channel absolutely despises, because clearly they're doing something right. My only concern is that Trump is far too pro-Israel. In fact my primary concern is that EVERY politician is too pro-Israel. Zionist scum.

As you can see, Trump's appeal apparently lies in what he says. Trump says this, Trump says that. None of his positions are particularly extraordinary, it's just his phrasing that stands out. Other politicians won't spread racially-charged conspiracy theories about hordes of illegal immigrants swarming us, but a tough response to illegal immigration has always been a Republican staple. The same goes for withdrawing from the Paris Agreement - plenty of Republicans have taken anti-environmentalist stances in the past. Rushy almost touches on this faux-maverick approach at the end by highlighting Trump's pro-Israel stance and how it doesn't differ from any other mainstream politician. Trump is ideologically a standard Republican (because he has no ideology or political beliefs of his own) whose blunt, crude manner of speech and embrace of conspiracy theories has somehow made standard Republican positions sound rebellious and daring.

There's also the childish refrain of how if the media thinks that Trump is bad he must therefore be good, which I find to be an especially irritating and very, very weak argument - and yet it keeps popping up, and even non-Trump supporters will occasionally "concede" this point to him. "At least Trump is exposing what hypocrites the media are!" "At least Trump is helping turn the tables on the lying media!" No, no, no. At no point in Trump's war with the media have his interests ever aligned with ours ("ours" meaning anyone who isn't Trump). Trump hates the media because they report on his scandals and failures, they fact-check his lies, and they won't divulge the names of their anonymous sources so that Trump can promptly fire them. Those are not your reasons to dislike or distrust the media. They aren't the reasons of anyone who isn't Trump. The media has many flaws, but Trump has done nothing to highlight or expose them, because the only thing he cares about is himself. Stop giving him credit for things he hasn't earned.

Tbh, rushys comments make the most sense of any reasons Ive heard to date, but my distrust for Trump
Is so great, I cant believe that he didn’€™t have some hidden agenda.

110

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 12, 2020, 06:42:32 PM »

As a non-American, I find support for Trump to be totally unfathomable.

Trust me, this isn't a perspective limited to non-Americans. I'm as clueless to how it's possible for otherwise seemingly reasonable people to support this monster as you are, and I even know a few who do personally.

I'm with ya'll... it boggles my mind.

I can say there are two reasons for which I have heard people support Trump:

1. Having relatives that live in West Virginia, it is fairly common knowledge that their support for Trump is based around gun-ownership and the potential left-wing laws that might threaten this.

2. I've heard that some support him solely because they could not vote for Hillary.

Neither of these reasons seem like good reasons to me, and if Trump was the lesser evil, we have to ask ourselves why our election system would favor the two worst candidates rather than common-sense.

In either case, I, too, would like to understand better why Trump has gained so much support.

111

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 12, 2020, 02:14:04 PM »

I see that they could be using this as a way to get around laws which prevent political campaigns from getting money from international and corporate sources, for one.

Someone who supports Trump is concerned about "getting around laws"? Please don't make me point out the irony of this statement.

112

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 11, 2020, 11:01:04 PM »

When I say Trump isn't to blame, what I mean is that he hasn't created a 'secret army' of nazis right under My issue with putting the blame on Trump is that it ignores the decades of systemic racism, and I feel that now, more than ever, it needs to be talked about. We (society) keep pushing it under a rug, perhaps wishing someone else will take care of it, but it isn't going away. Then you have riots like this, like what has happened over and over and over again... eventually we all have to accept some responsibility for it.

People are fed up over an issue that long predated Trump. I get it. I suspect everybody gets it, except maybe some people who are inherently part of the problem.

I just don't know if that's true. I don't know that "everybody gets it".

113

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 11, 2020, 06:51:40 PM »

Trump doesn't deserve blame for what's happening right now - the only thing you can blame on Trump is his complete lack of compassion and willingness to unite the people, and instead actively divides the people. He's not even trying to hide it anymore...

So you agree that Trump is working to divide us at a time when it's important that we be united, but you don't think that his doing so is having any further negative effect on the rioting whatsoever?

It's a reasonable opinion, I guess, but I disagree. I think that at a sensitive time right now, if our leaders refuse to properly lead, then things getting worse can only be a foregone conclusion.

I don't think it's having as much impact as you think - I'm not going to rule it out, as I've said, Trump is being deliberately divisive - he gets pleasure out of seeing people hate one another, it's scary and demented.

What I'm really trying to say is that a lot of the hate and violence that is coming out now is not to be blamed on Trump. It has been there for decades. Us white, privileged people have been made to think racism was snuffed out with the civil rights movement, and the 13th amendment, but the truth is slavery and racism was reformed into something else, but it was still slavery and racism.

Trump promotes it, touts it, lives and breathes it. Every day that goes on, he looks more and more like Hitler reincarnated. The American Stalin. A confederate, and a bigot. For all of these reasons, Trump is at fault for the result of anyone who buys into that, but I'm afraid most people who follow him were always there to follow him. Trump has not changed anyone's mind, he's just further confirmed and publicized the corruption and hatred that was already there.

When I say Trump isn't to blame, what I mean is that he hasn't created a 'secret army' of nazis right under our noses, the 'secret army' has always been there.

I mean of course. Trump didn't invent systemic racism, I think we all understand that. I still think his complete unwillingness to show empathy for what the people are protesting and his lack of effort to be conciliatory can only have exacerbated things.

It certainly doesn't help, and I can agree that he has made it more acceptable to be publicly and blatantly racist.

Edit:

My issue with putting the blame on Trump is that it ignores the decades of systemic racism, and I feel that now, more than ever, it needs to be talked about. We (society) keep pushing it under a rug, perhaps wishing someone else will take care of it, but it isn't going away. Then you have riots like this, like what has happened over and over and over again... eventually we all have to accept some responsibility for it.

114

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 11, 2020, 06:45:49 PM »

The only blame you have is giving hate groups the empowerment to be public and open about it.  To do something more than just complain in chat rooms.

Surely you mean Trump, not me? I speak out against hate and violence. I don't empower hate groups to be public and open either - that is happening whether I complain about it here or not.

115

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 11, 2020, 06:35:49 PM »

Trump doesn't deserve blame for what's happening right now - the only thing you can blame on Trump is his complete lack of compassion and willingness to unite the people, and instead actively divides the people. He's not even trying to hide it anymore...

So you agree that Trump is working to divide us at a time when it's important that we be united, but you don't think that his doing so is having any further negative effect on the rioting whatsoever?

It's a reasonable opinion, I guess, but I disagree. I think that at a sensitive time right now, if our leaders refuse to properly lead, then things getting worse can only be a foregone conclusion.

I don't think it's having as much impact as you think - I'm not going to rule it out, as I've said, Trump is being deliberately divisive - he gets pleasure out of seeing people hate one another, it's scary and demented.

What I'm really trying to say is that a lot of the hate and violence that is coming out now is not to be blamed on Trump. It has been there for decades. Us white, privileged people have been made to think racism was snuffed out with the civil rights movement, and the 13th amendment, but the truth is slavery and racism was reformed into something else, but it was still slavery and racism.

Trump promotes it, touts it, lives and breathes it. Every day that goes on, he looks more and more like Hitler reincarnated. The American Stalin. A confederate, and a bigot. For all of these reasons, Trump is at fault for the result of anyone who buys into that, but I'm afraid most people who follow him were always there to follow him. Trump has not changed anyone's mind, he's just further confirmed and publicized the corruption and hatred that was already there.

When I say Trump isn't to blame, what I mean is that he hasn't created a 'secret army' of nazis right under our noses, the 'secret army' has always been there.

116

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 11, 2020, 06:09:08 PM »

That seems like an unfair comparison. Hmm, unless. Did Boris Johnson publicly fan the flames of civil unrest prior to your hypothetical visit?

I'd argue that he did. Without veering too far from the topic of another person with fantastic yellow hair, BoJo is pretty well known for his ethnically insensitive comments. My favourite one was when he said women in burqas look like mailboxes.

Nonetheless, people are responsible for their own actions first and foremost. Secondly, if I wanted to get back at BoJo, I still wouldn't be setting fire to Tumeni's house. He's largely an unrelated party in this, so that would be dumb.

Let's be clear about this: if Tumeni's house turns out to be on fire in the near future (which is of course very unlikely) it has nothing to do with me disliking BoJo.

Of course people are responsible for their own actions "first and foremost". That doesn't give our leaders carte blanche to do or say anything they want. They still need to be held accountable for what they do and say and the effect it might have. During difficult times we look to our leaders to help get us through. If those leaders are arguably only making things worse, you don't think they deserve any responsibility for that at all?

I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to suggest that Trump deserves blame for what's happening right now. No, it doesn't mean the actions of the rioters are justified. But that doesn't mean that if Trump had perhaps tried to heal our country's wounds, rather than continuing to divide us into his camp or terrorists (this isn't even much of an exaggeration), maybe the rioting and looting wouldn't have been so bad. That's all I'm saying and I'm pretty sure it was what Tumeni was trying to get across too.

So, yes, if ol' Boris was throwing gasoline on the fire of racial injustice, and your burning Tumeni's house down was an expression of frustration over that situation, I would say Boris deserves some of the blame. It doesn't mean you're off the hook though so don't go getting any ideas.

Trump doesn't deserve blame for what's happening right now - the only thing you can blame on Trump is his complete lack of compassion and willingness to unite the people, and instead actively divides the people. He's not even trying to hide it anymore...

117

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: June 11, 2020, 04:05:03 PM »

It's not the police-individual that is the problem. It is the police institution and union that are the problem. It's the corporate interest that is the problem.

Police institutions are backed by corporate investments - corporations that also have strong investments in prison systems and judicial law.

There are corporate interests at every level of government, writing laws, and enacting bullshit policies that help their pocket books.

Police, "law and order", brutality, and prisons are center to this and tantamount to slavery.

118

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 10, 2020, 09:32:03 PM »

All tremendous resume stuff, if only he could remember doing it...

... but you agree that he did it, right ...? You asked for examples, you got one.

Did what?

Honor the life of a career shitbag?

You call that doing something?

You'll need to define what you mean by "shitbag", lest you be further accused of being racist.

Edit:

Alright, no bullshit, let's jump passed the next few rebutals and get to the point...

George stole.....

I've stolen, and been convicted of it.... I was 18. Am I a shitbag?

George assaulted someone....

I've assaulted someone before... nothing recently... am I a shitbag?

I've tried to get away with all kinds of shit.... am I am shitbag deserving a slow death?

I've also done many, many good things. I have provided offspring who will also do many, many great things.

I try to be noble.... do you think George was less noble?

It's laughable, that you judge someone, whom you've never met and call them a shitbag, and think anyone's going to give credence to that notion...

119

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Are the American police out of control?

« on: June 10, 2020, 06:29:44 PM »

Has anyone here heard of the "Stanford Prison Experiment"?

Seriously, that experiment was bad science and shouldn't be cited as anything other than an example of very bad science.

Ok, well have you ever been to a prison?

My personal experience with prison/jail guards is pretty much inline with the Stanford Prison Experiment. You can also see this play out in reality - heard of #metoo?

120

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: June 10, 2020, 06:18:17 PM »

Interesting to note that according to livestrong.com, someone who is 6'1" is considered obese if they weigh more than 227 lbs.

Maybe this little factoid here gives Trump a reason to lie about his height?

https://www.livestrong.com/article/334960-the-normal-weight-for-6-1/