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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Where is Google Maps wrong?
« Reply #60 on: January 20, 2022, 05:10:18 PM »
So your contention is that, for all transmission angles, and all altitudes above the earth's surface, the distances and incidence angles at the surface would be identical regardless of whether the earth was round and EM waves traveled in straight lines or if, instead, the earth was flat and the rays curved according to EA?
No.
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Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Where is Google Maps wrong?
« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2022, 05:29:55 PM »
So your contention is that, for all transmission angles, and all altitudes above the earth's surface, the distances and incidence angles at the surface would be identical regardless of whether the earth was round and EM waves traveled in straight lines or if, instead, the earth was flat and the rays curved according to EA?
No.

At this point most reasonable people in a debate would clearly state what their contention actually is, in the interest of keeping a lively discussion going. Any chance you could do so?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Where is Google Maps wrong?
« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2022, 05:38:20 PM »
At this point most reasonable people in a debate would clearly state what their contention actually is, in the interest of keeping a lively discussion going. Any chance you could do so?
I already stated my position. If you're going to devolve your rhetoric to the level of "sO wHaT yOu'Re SaYiNg iS <obvious strawman>", you exclude yourself from reasonable debate.
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Offline stack

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Re: Where is Google Maps wrong?
« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2022, 07:54:08 PM »
I'm not seeing any visual distortion.
Sigh, of course you'd choose the narrowest angle possible. I weep for you.

I'm not sure what you mean by "narrowest angle".

But hey, let's roll with this. How have you determined whether this image appears distorted when referenced against a "naked eye" view of the scene? Pardon my cynicism, but I strongly suspect you haven't made the comparison at all.

This is what Chicago looks like when I've been there, with the naked eye. I'm not seeing any distortion in this panorama:



Are you saying that all panorama images are distorted?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Where is Google Maps wrong?
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2022, 07:09:48 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean by "narrowest angle".
I'm very sorry to hear that. Have you considered learning basic optics before debating its nuances?

This is what Chicago looks like when I've been there, with the naked eye. I'm not seeing any distortion in this panorama:

Then you have proven yourself to be an entirely unreliable witness, since you are confidently testifying to something that's impossible. As you are well aware, you can't map a curved image onto a flat plane without introducing some degree of distortion, and yet you claim no such distortion was introduced. Similarly, by your testimony, the last time you observed Chicago with the naked eye, the buildings were not standing upright, and all of them were measurably leaning towards the centre of the image. I must say, I'm glad nobody lives in the Chicago you've imagined in your mind - they'd be in even worse a place than real Chicagoans!

And, once again, you failed to perform the relevant test. I don't care whether you think it looks distorted, or what your recollection of events is - the task is for you to compare two images. You're failing to observe the difference between the two images because you repeatedly choose not to observe one of the two images.

Are you saying that all panorama images are distorted?
Please, exercise the common courtesy of reading what I said before responding. If you don't even know what I said, you're horrendously unprepared to try and formulate a reasoned response.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 07:26:18 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline stack

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Re: Where is Google Maps wrong?
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2022, 07:58:50 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean by "narrowest angle".
I'm very sorry to hear that. Have you considered learning basic optics before debating its nuances?

You wrote:

I'm not seeing any visual distortion.
Sigh, of course you'd choose the narrowest angle possible. I weep for you.

How would you know the composite panorama was shot with the "narrowest angle possible"?

This is what Chicago looks like when I've been there, with the naked eye. I'm not seeing any distortion in this panorama:

Then you have proven yourself to be an entirely unreliable witness, since you are confidently testifying to something that's impossible. As you are well aware, you can't map a curved image onto a flat plane without introducing some degree of distortion, and yet you claim no such distortion was introduced. Similarly, by your testimony, the last time you observed Chicago with the naked eye, the buildings were not standing upright, and all of them were measurably towards the centre of the image. I must say, I'm glad nobody lives in the Chicago you've imagined in your mind - they'd be in even worse a place than real Chicagoans!

And, once again, you failed to perform the relevant test. I don't care whether you think it looks distorted, or what your recollection of events is - the task is for you to compare two images. You're failing to observe the difference between the two images because you repeatedly choose not to observe one of the two images.

I'm still not seeing any "significant distortion" as you claim.



Are you saying that all panorama images are distorted?
Please, exercise the common courtesy of reading what I said before responding. If you don't even know what I said, you're horrendously unprepared to try and formulate a reasoned response.

You wrote:

That is, of course, with the important caveat that the shape of objects in panoramas is significantly distorted when compared to their "naked eye" appearance.

I didn't want to assume you meant all panoramas, giving you the benefit of the doubt. Because there are obviously panoramas that aren't "significantly distorted".

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Where is Google Maps wrong?
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2022, 11:31:08 PM »
How would you know the composite panorama was shot with the "narrowest angle possible"?
I didn't say anything about how it was shot. I will give you one last chance to catch up with what you're arguing against. If you can't process simple English, please stop wasting my time with non-sequitur responses.

I'm still not seeing any "significant distortion" as you claim.
I don't know how to help you, given that you completely ignored the geometric impossibility of your position (together with the very measurable evidence of why you're wrong), and followed up by posting a collage of pictures which were not taken from the same location, which do not accurately represent the naked eye experience, and which do not look remotely similar to the panorama (indeed, they exaggerate the distortion thanks to the terrible sample selection).

If you're unwilling to perform the comparison, well, you're a lazy so-and-so, but there's nothing forcing you to be a dishonest and obtuse lazy so-and-so.

Because there are obviously panoramas that aren't "significantly distorted".
This is the opposite of "obvious". It is geometrically impossible to map the surface of a sphere (or any part thereof that isn't just a point) to a flat surface without introducing distortion. If you think otherwise, you need to review things you should have learned around the age of 12. Preferably, you will do so without subjecting everyone else to your lacks in education.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 11:33:52 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline jimster

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Re: Where is Google Maps wrong?
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2022, 10:45:07 PM »
I saw a youtube video of a couple sailing across the Atlantic. They used a sextant to shoot the sun at noon and calculate their position. The calculation came within a few miles of what they saw on their cell phone gps. People have been doing this since the invention of the chronometer. Here is how to do it:

https://princetonastronomy.com/2020/05/01/solar-observations-with-a-sextant/

Basically, the angle of the sun above the horizon gives your latitude, and the time (related to GMT) gives your longitude. This works on FE or RE the same way, although the numbers in the chart would be different.

I know a man who was in the Air Force and was a flight engineer on MATS cargo flights all over the world. When I told him that someone said "no one knows the distance or where you are over the ocean", he laughed. They flew regularly to the Azores, tiny islands in a very big Atlantic, you really want to get this right, or you have to swim hundreds of miles. The flight engineer was responsible for engine settings and fuel load. He needs this right, or you run out of gas in the Atlantic. He was cross trained as pilot and navigator to some degree.

They had several ways of knowing where they were:

1. Dead reckoning, least accurate, subject to wind error, as Tom Bishop says.
2. Triangulation with known radio stations and a directional antenna. You may have seen military aircraft with a circular antenna sicking out above the fuselage, that is what it is for.
3. Loran, the ground based predecessor of gps. check youtube videos for how it worked.
4. Sextant, as explained above. That is what the plexiglass bubble on top of the fuselage of military aircraft of the 1940s, C-47, B-17, B-24.

He said they always knew where they were, always successfully found their destination, many many times, never ran out of gas. He said the wind had some unknown impact on them, hence the importance of knowing where they were. He also said they knew roughly what the wind would be, needed for fuel load planning. Amazingly to Tom Bishop, all methods gave the same answer to within a few miles. Otherwise, you are in the middle of the Atlantic, short of fuel, and no idea where you are?

If Tom Bishop is right, I am never going to vacation in Hawaii. Does the pilot of an airliner take off for Hawaii knowing he has no idea how far it is, just points the plane in the same direction as last time and it always seems to get there? Amazing, especially with unknown winds that must be hundreds of mph to make the Sydney to Santiago flights work, perhaps in both directions at the same time, or maybe the flights are on different days of the week because they experienced the winds one way on Wed and the other way on Fri? What if the wind blows you off course north and south, seems like the wind would have to blow exactly towards your destination, or north south error.

There is astral navigation, radio navigation, dead reckoning, but per Tom Bishop, the only possible possible technique is "worked last time, cross your fingers". Are the insurance companies aware of this? Of course, it seems to be 100% reliable method, airliners always find Hawaii. Pretty small dot in a very bog ocean, with hundreds of mph winds going unknown directions.

And none of the pilots know, and none of them tell anyone? The pilot and navigator faked it and pretended when they told the flight engineer where they were? They always found the Azores, he never ditched out of fuel.
"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".

Re: Where is Google Maps wrong?
« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2022, 05:33:02 PM »
@Jimster; concur with 95% of your post, but could you clarify this  "came within a few miles of what they saw on their cell phone gps"

Whilst I would find some novelty value in comparing my solar-calculated position with that on my cellphone (assuming pre-loaded with suitable mapping), I find it difficult to believe that a 21st Century transatlantic navigator would not be also be equipped with a dedicated marine-GPS as a reference source of navigation data. 

Do you have a link to the You Tube video?

Re: Where is Google Maps wrong?
« Reply #69 on: January 30, 2022, 07:05:11 AM »

The only reliable distance measurement method is an odometer, and people haven't measured large portions of the earth with it.

I drove from Perth to Darwin, and every single leg of that trip complied exactly with RET-based predictions. Just sayin'.

(Btw, same with Calgary - Key West - Toronto - Calgary).

Offline jimster

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Re: Where is Google Maps wrong?
« Reply #70 on: January 30, 2022, 07:13:41 PM »
Not gonna take the time to link to the video, sorry. It was a young couple in a 30-40 foot sailboat. The man was navigating with sextant only, did a noon sun shoot and calculated his position. Then he showed it to his wife, who checked gps on her cell phone. She then confirmed he was right to him - he wanted to navigate across the ocean without ever looking at gps. They edited in a chart showing the calculated and gps locations showing a few miles.

I make no claim to precision, but it doesn't take much precision to confirm that Australia is 2700 mi wide and US is 3000 mi wide and the FAQ map has Australia much wider than US. People on FE web sites frequently fixate on precision and miss entirely the point. It serves only to distract from the main point that proves the earth is round. For example here we could go off the rails to argue "round" vs "oblate spheriod".

Clearly people have been navigating the world successfully since 1700s. I flew on an airliner from Sydney Australia to LA. If you know how to do this, you know what the distances are, and hence the shape of the earth.
"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".

Re: Where is Google Maps wrong?
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2022, 07:21:32 PM »
There are winds which travel both Eastwards and Westwards in both the North and the South. There is no such thing as not taking advantage of any winds for a control flight. The planes always try to take advantage of the winds when they fly. When traveling from New York to Europe the planes fly North along the track and when they fly from Europe to New York they fly over a thousand miles south to take advantage of the opposite winds.


OK, so if there's a headwind going one way, then there's a tailwind going the other.  So, do the round-trip and split the difference.  The result (especially after a number of trips) is going to be a close estimate of the actual distance.