[Bobby Shafto]

I don't know how to explain it to him any better. I don't want to believe he's messing with us. But I don't know how to proceed without being condescending.

This is the part of the earth that will be facing the sun at the next autumnal equinox (2018):



-----------------------------

365 solar days later (2019), the same part of the world will be facing the sun at the same time.
But it won't be autumnal equinox yet.
The sun will not have crossed the ecliptic yet.
That won't happen for another 5 hrs and 48 mins when the sun is over the Indian Ocean.
A solar year will not have yet transpired at this point when the sun is illuminating this part of the world:



-----------------------------

This is the autumnal equinox in 2019.
This is where the sun will be crossing the equator from north to south in 2019.
Here is where 356.24217 solar days will have passed since the 2018 autumnal equinox.
A new side of the earth will be experiencing solar noon at the equinox.



These images are more accurate than a simplistic diagram/animation that is intended to explain a concept and meant to cause confusion.
These should help anyone having difficulty with this solar year/solar day/equinox relationship comprehend it.

[hexagon]

I think this guy is really sure that he found a big hole in the whole calendar system, overlooked by generations of astronomers for hundreds, even thousands of years. At that it needs a smart ass guy as this flat earther to show it to the world. That's the real flat earth spirit :-)

[douglips]

It's clear I cannot explain this in a way that will make sense to you, so I will stop trying.

This video covers this problem in detail, maybe it will help.

Be aware that the animation at 11:30 is simplified and shows the wrong rotation just like you imagine it. He goes into a more detailed animation immediately thereafter.

[Bobby Shafto]

This video covers this problem in detail, maybe it will help.

I contemplated posting that because he provides a good explanation of what we're talking about in light-hearted way that is nonetheless correct (at least I didn't have any quibbles).

But I thought the last part of the video would be too much of a distraction.

[AATW]

On a diagram of the earth going around the sun the problem is clear. The illuminated portion needs to be pointing in the same place.

Why?

The illuminated portion needs to point at the sun because it comes from the sun.

No idea what that's supposed to mean.

The illuminated portion can't turn 365.24 times on a diagram that illustrates the earth going around the sun to its same spot on the oval path.

I've highlighted your problem. The diagrams you're looking at are for illustration only and don't exactly represent the reality. After a solar year the earth is in the same PLACE in its orbit but is not in the same orientation, it's a about a quarter turn different, there's your .24 days or 6 hours.

[Tumeni]

Typo, clearly.

It should read: There cannot be full solar days in a 365.24 solar day year. There cannot be.

(It read, originally; "The earth can't rotate 24 Solar Days in a  365.24 Solar Day Year")

Wow, that's some typo.

[Tumeni]

The illuminated portion can't turn 365.24 times on a diagram that illustrates the earth going around the sun to its same spot on the oval path.

Once more; the diagrams are an approximation, not an exactness.

They represent a high-level indication of what is going on, not the exact data relating to the scenario.

[Bobby Shafto]

It should read: There cannot be full solar days in a 365.24 solar day year. There cannot be.

(It read, originally; "The earth can't rotate 24 Solar Days in a  365.24 Solar Day Year")

I don't know what the corrected edit means.

There ARE 365 full solar days in a 365.24 solar day solar year.

Red is for irony, in case it isn't obvious.

These diagrams are what Tom has cited, and they don't show an earth rotating through an extra 0.24 solar day after 1 solar year. Ergo, the 0.24 'extra time" must be wrong since these must be accurate?




This simulation is what Tom has sited, and it doesn't even show the extra 0.24 solar day (or the earth's tilt). Ergo, the 0.24 "extra time" must be wrong since this must be accurate? If we dispute it, are we smarter than the astronomy department at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln? UNL professors certainly must be supporting Tom's identification of "the Problem" since they authorized publication of this simulation showing no extra time:




Everyone knows that a solar year MUST be -- has to be - exactly 365 solar days because the same part of the world needs to face the sun 365 solar days later.
But then how can the solar year ALSO be defined by the crossing of the ecliptic plane by the sun if it doesn't happen on the 365th solar day?
That's "a problem."
"The Solar Day and the Solar Year that is based on the Equinox do not match up."
The diagrams show the globe earth having a solar year of 365 days. Not 365.24 days.
Solar year according to the diagrams is 365 solar days.
Solar year according to equinox is 365.24 solar days.
It doesn't match up (right Tom?)

-----------


Let's turn to the FE simulation for the right answer.


Hmm. This shows the sun never leaving the equator. Is it always "equinox" according to flat earth? This diagram shows it to be so.

If not -- if, contrary to the animation, the sun actually spirals between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, when does that happen. Here?


And if the sun spirals around 365 more days after that, will it be back in the same position and it will cross the equator again on the same day, and the same time? Where's the diagram? The simulation? The Flat Earth calculator telling us the correct time and date of the sun's crossing of the equator?

If it's every 365 days with no fractions, hey!  No need for leap anythings. There's no drift in the point of equinox. There's no need for an added day every four years. The sun's crossing of the equator will happen over the same point above the earth every year.

But what if there is variation in the timing and placing of the equinox? Even if we do see the solstices and equinoxes drift, and the seasons start to shift, we know it can't be because of some specious 1/4 of a day extra time arising out of nowhere. Right?  But we just may never know why, because "... the Zetetic process only permits us to say:--'The peculiar motion is visible to us, but, of the cause, at present we are ignorant.'"

[juner]

"But these go to eleven"

Heyo, keep the shit posting in CN. Warned.

[Tom Bishop]

It's clear I cannot explain this in a way that will make sense to you, so I will stop trying.

This video covers this problem in detail, maybe it will help.

Be aware that the animation at 11:30 is simplified and shows the wrong rotation just like you imagine it. He goes into a more detailed animation immediately thereafter.

https://youtu.be/IJhgZBn-LHg

He does not address the problem. He's talking about how we use calendars to account for the .24 extra day with leap years and such.

The Leap Year/Leap Day was created to account for the extra .24. The .24 was not created to account for the Leap Year.

[inquisitive]

It's clear I cannot explain this in a way that will make sense to you, so I will stop trying.

This video covers this problem in detail, maybe it will help.

Be aware that the animation at 11:30 is simplified and shows the wrong rotation just like you imagine it. He goes into a more detailed animation immediately thereafter.

https://youtu.be/IJhgZBn-LHg

He does not address the problem. He's talking about how we use calendars to account for the .24 extra day with leap years and such.

The Leap Year/Leap Day was created to account for the extra .24. The .24 was not created to account for the Leap Year.

You should be discussing this in a science forum, not here.  There you would find experts.

[Tom Bishop]

Everyone knows that a solar year MUST be -- has to be - exactly 365 solar days because the same part of the world needs to face the sun 365 solar days later.

Bobby, this has nothing to do with "facing the same part of the world." You still have a misunderstanding of how Solar Time/Solar Day works.

Solar Day represents the rotation of the following illuminated part of the earth over the earth. The illuminated half is rotating around the earth once per Solar Day.

Top-Down View of Earth Day/Night:



The illuminated area in the top down scene above is rotating around the static earth at a rate of 1 rotation in 1 Solar Day.



Next we have the earth orbiting around the sun.



Any diagram. Circle Shape. Oval Shape. It doesn't matter.

The Illuminated Day side of the earth is always pointing at the sun.



The Equinox intersects a point on the path of the earth around the sun.



There are 364.24 Solar Days in one Solar Year. It takes one Solar Year to return to that point on the orbit.

When the earth starts on the Equinox Point the illuminated portion of the earth is looking at the sun.

When the earth gets to the Equinox Point again on the orbit, after one Solar Year/Tropical Year, the day and night cycle of Solar Time / Solar Day is misaligned, and will not point at the sun again.

Why?

[Tom Bishop]

The illuminated portion can't turn 365.24 times on a diagram that illustrates the earth going around the sun to its same spot on the oval path.

Once more; the diagrams are an approximation, not an exactness.

They represent a high-level indication of what is going on, not the exact data relating to the scenario.

This has nothing to do with the accuracy of the diagram. The earth returns to its same point on its path around the sun. The illuminated part must be pointing at the sun. If there are 365.24 Solar Days in a Solar Year/Tropical Year, then it is not pointing at the sun.

[Bobby Shafto]

The western Pacific Ocean side of the earth will be pointed toward the sun on the next autumnal equinox.

365 solar days later, the western Pacific Ocean side of the earth will be again be pointed toward the sun.

At 2019's autumnal equinox, ~6 hours into the 366th solar day since the 2018 autumnal equinox, the Indian Ocean side of the earth will be pointed toward the sun.

365 even solar days is not 1 solar year. The autumnal equinox in 2019 will not happen while the Western Pacific is experiencing solar noon like it will in 2018. The equinox will move to the west by a quarter turn of earth. The side of the earth being illuminated will thus be different too...over the Indian Ocean instead of the western Pacific.

You want to stop the solar year clock when the sun illuminates the same side of the earth as it did the previous year, but the earth doesn't stop rotating to wait for the orbit to complete. Solar year is an orbit measurement. Not a rotation measurement. Solar year and solar day aren't going to line up in the same way at the end of each solar year. It's not a problem. It's just a ratio.


Here's a gear system of ratio 30:7. Line them up with the red indices and then start turning. After 1 complete turn of the large gear (call it a gear year) the small gear will have rotated 4.29 times and the red lines won't line up. So what? If 1 turn of the small gear relative to the large gear is a "gear day" and 1 turn of the large gear is a gear year, you won't get a gear year being an even multiple of a gear day unless the ratio is a whole number. You shouldn't expect to.


Earth & sun aren't meshed like gears. There's no connection (I'm aware of) that makes earth's rotation period contingent on earth's orbit period. But they each have measure and the ratio is 356.24217 to 1. Not 356 to 1. Solar year isn't both 356 solar days AND equinox to like equinox. It's only the latter. The former is not a solar year.

[Tom Bishop]

You want to stop the solar year clock when the sun illuminates the same side of the earth as it did the previous year, but the earth doesn't stop rotating to wait for the orbit to complete.

It's not the same side of the physical world. The earth needs to be lit from the same side side as in starts in the diagram.

Refer to the last post I created for you.

[Bobby Shafto]

You want to stop the solar year clock when the sun illuminates the same side of the earth as it did the previous year, but the earth doesn't stop rotating to wait for the orbit to complete.

It's not the same side of the physical world. The earth needs to be lit from the same side side as in starts in the diagram.

Refer to the last post I created for you.

Okay. Reading it next, because I cannot fathom why you think the earth needs to be lit from the same side as it starts. Let's see if your last post to me explains why.

[Tumeni]

It's not the same side of the physical world. The earth needs to be lit from the same side side as in starts in the diagram.

For why? To satisfy what rule?

[Tom Bishop]

It's not the same side of the physical world. The earth needs to be lit from the same side side as in starts in the diagram.

For why? To satisfy what rule?

The Solar Day is in regards to illumination, not how fast the earth may be rotating or how fast a physical feature move or what they are aligned with on the earth's surface. It deals with Day and Night.

The Solar Day is defined by the sun moving around a static earth. It may also be spoken of as the rate the earth rotates from the earth's reference frame in regards to the sun, but the key here is "Sol," which means sun. It is sun time, and represents our day and night.

The earth is illuminated on the side facing the sun. It travels around the sun in 356.24 Solar Days. This does not make sense if it goes in a circle around the sun, back to its start point, and the Day/Night cycle is not in the same Solar Day.

[Bobby Shafto]

Bobby, this has nothing to do with "facing the same part of the world." You still have a misunderstanding of how Solar Time/Solar Day works.

Looking forward to being corrected.

Solar Day represents the rotation illuminated part of the earth over the earth. The illuminated half of the is rotating around the earth once per Solar Day.

Okay. You're describing it as the illumination sweeping over a static earth, but I get it. Same concept. Just a difference frame of reference. I'm with you.

Top-Down View of Earth Day/Night:



The illuminated area in the top down scene above is rotating around the static earth at a rate of 1 rotation per 24 hours, or 1 rotation in 1 Solar Day.

Got it. Same as before. Static earth. Motion of sunlight illumination. Now from a "polar" view. Still think I'm grasping the concept of a solar day so far. Rotation arrow is backwards if your talking static earth and rotating sun, but no biggie. I follow.

Next we have the earth orbiting around the sun.



Any diagram. Circle Shape. Oval Shape. It doesn't matter.

The Illuminated Day side of the earth is always pointing at the sun.

Hmm. "The illuminated day side of the earth is always pointing at the sun." Isn't that self-explanatory? The side of the earth facing the sun is illuminated? Who needs a diagram to explain that?  And since the earth is also rotating, the illuminated day side of the earth is always changing. I don't think we're breaking any new ground yet.

The Equinox intersects a point on the path of the earth around the sun.

Not going to quibble about how you articulate that because I get the point. There a line where the equatorial plane and the ecliptic plane intersect, and an equinox occurs where the earth's path around the sun intersects that line. (Two such points per orbit).

I think I'm with you so far. Waiting to see where I'm misunderstanding.

There are 364.24 Solar Days in one Solar Year.

Yes

It takes one Solar Year to return to that point on the orbit.

Yes

When the earth starts at point A on the Equinox Point the illuminated portion of the earth is looking at the sun.

Sure. Whatever area on the earth that is facing the sun at that point is being illuminated. Not Where am I misunderstanding?

When the earth gets to point A again on the orbit, after one Solar Year/Tropical Year, the day and night cycle of Solar Time / Solar Day is misaligned, and will not point at the sun again.

Whoa!  Everything was fine up to here. I don't understand what's misaligned. The earth is at point A again. The illuminated side is facing the earth.

The only thing substantially different is that the area on earth that is being illuminated is different this time at point A than it was last time at point A. But that can't be it because when I said that before you told me no.

Why?

Why what? Why is a different part of the earth pointing toward the sun and being illuminated by it compared to the start?

Overlaying your polar view image on a picture of static globe with the illumination side rotating around it...

...are you asking why the rotating illumination isn't over the same part of the earth as it was at the start?

[Tom Bishop]

Why what? Why is a different part of the earth pointing toward the sun and being illuminated by it compared to the start?

We are just talking about the day and night cycle, that has a period of 24 hours, not a "part of the earth."

Why what? Why is a different part of the earth pointing toward the sun and being illuminated by it compared to the start?

Overlaying your polar view image on a picture of static globe with the illumination side rotating around it...[/color]

http://oi67.tinypic.com/24xm4jq.jpg

...are you asking why the rotating illumination isn't over the same part of the earth as it was at the start?

This has little to do with the "same part of the earth" that needs to be lined up. The day and night cycle of 24 hours does not match up to the Solar Year. The illuminated portion in the day and night cycle is misaligned with the sun if, when the earth returns to the Equinox point on the earth's path, there has not been a full Solar Day.