[Tumeni]

Start the 24 hour clock on the September Equinox point where it is 12PM Solar Noon at the point of the Equinox and it will end on ~6PM after one Solar Year. Why would it not stop at 12PM if you are in the same position on the earth's orbit around the sun, as per the diagrams?

.. because the diagrams are an approximation, not an exactness.

Work through the data for each day from 1 - 182.5 and calculate the angles, as per the diagram in the first few pages (EDIT - Reply #135, and in the Wikipedia page for Solar Time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_time)), which illustrated the sidereal day. See what happens when you work with actual data, not high-level illustrations.

 

[AATW]

He already knows. Anyone past the 5th grade would have understood by now, and clearly Tom is not stupid.

You say that...he thinks that shadows change angle because of perspective and that spectroscopy is looking at something and thinking "ooh, that's a bit red".
There are a load of things he doesn't seem to understand but thinks he understands.

But...yeah, maybe he does understand and is having fun. Which is fine, other people will see the arguments for what they are.

Other people will also see the debate as some kind of validation for his nonsense assertion.

Isn't there a risk that debating nonsense makes everyone a little dumber.

I don't think nonsense should be left unchallenged but I do think we've indulged him for too long in this thread.
Quite how you can think that a year is 365.24 days and then be confused that the number of rotations of earth in a year is not an integer is beyond me.
I do suspect at times he's only in this for a laugh and does really understand all this.

[Jura-Glenlivet]

Okay I’m calling a halt to this, now.

This non -argument was pretty much wrapped at the end of the first page, Tumeni doing much of the lifting work, by the time GG, Macarios, the tree Rat, AATW and others had weighed in it was finished.

Since then you’ve all been running around like cats chasing a laser pointer.

Either Bish’ doesn’t understand that the day is the night and day cycle, and the year isn’t linked, and we have been trying with leap years/seconds to reconcile the two with increasingly complex tweaks/success, in which case he is an idiot and needs to look at all the other planets and point to a precedent for his premiss, or he is fucking with you.

I know it is hard to walk away as he (they) will no doubt chalk it up to a victory, but anyone else will see that you won this early on and he (they) are just trying to bury the fact in heaps of repetition.

Do a wind-up statement as concise as possible and leave him, and for your own sanity as well as mine resist all enticements to return.

Jura has spoken! 

[Tumeni]

Okay I’m calling a halt to this, now.

This non -argument was pretty much wrapped at the end of the first page, Tumeni doing much of the lifting work, by the time GG, Macarios, the tree Rat, AATW and others had weighed in it was finished.

...

Do a wind-up statement as concise as possible and leave him, and for your own sanity as well as mine resist all enticements to return.

I tired to do that with reply #10, but ...

Hundreds upon thousands of astronomers and others in related disciplines have looked at the relative motions of Sun, Earth and Moon over hundreds, or thousands of years.

Their work has been distilled into hundreds, possibly thousands of textbooks, and many of them have used optical instruments and high-level maths in preference to napkins and simple arithmetic.

Rather than using a school-level diagram as your starting point, why not start with a trip to your local library, and peruse some of these textbooks? Rather than using a napkin, look at what astronomers have used, and still use, for their empirical observations.

Why should I/we indulge you, and explain this in great detail, when it has already been detailed?

Your go-to response is to refer globe-earthers to one book, and one book only - ENaG.   I refer you to hundreds, possibly thousands, which deal with this matter. Surely you won't conclude that you're right, and they're all wrong?

[Bobby Shafto]

"But these go to eleven"

[Bobby Shafto]

My last question to Tom was going to be, well, if there's something wrong with solar noon in the round earth "theory," how would flat earth explain it.

But then I read the words of Samuel Birley Rowbotham: "... the Zetetic process only permits us to say:--'The peculiar motion is visible to us, but, of the cause, at present we are ignorant.'"

I think that until a flat earth model comes up with something better, I'll be okay with Tom Bishop having a problem with where the "extra time" comes from in current, conventional Earth Is A Globe explanations and calculations.

[Tom Bishop]

At the point of September Equinox the sun is illuminating half of the earth.

Solar Time is 24 Hours. One Solar Day is 24 Hours.

After 365.24 Solar Days the earth has returned to the starting point on the earth's orbit around the sun, yet illuminated differently.

Yes. Because of the .24. 365.24 is a count of the number of times the earth has rotated. That's what a day is.
So the earth is in the same place but it isn't in the same orientation, it has done 365 complete rotations and then .24 of another.
Which is about a quarter. And what's a quarter of a 24 hour day? 6! There's your 6 hours.

Hooray! I've solved another mystery of the univers.

The problem seems to be that you still seem to misunderstand what a Solar Day is. The earth makes one full rotation in a Solar Day. In a Solar Day, and in Solar Time, Noon is always 12PM, and is facing the sun. Midnight is 12 AM. The sun can also be thought to going around the earth in a Solar Da6y.

The earth can't rotate 24 full Solar Days in a  365.24 Solar Day Year. Impossible.

The sun can't rotate around the earth 365.24 times. Impossible.

Something will be misaligned when the earth returns to the same point on the orbit around the sun.

The illuminated portion of the earth will be pointing in the wrong direction. It needs to point in the same geometric position it started in on the earth's orbit around the sun.

[AATW]

Yes, Tom. It's definitely me who is confused. Just like with the laser and the boat.
Jura is right, you've had your fun.
</thread>

[Bobby Shafto]

When my daughter had "a problem with" algebra, she didn't argue as if she understood algebra and it was my failing to not recognize that algebra was flawed.

[Tom Bishop]

Yes, Tom. It's definitely me who is confused. Just like with the laser and the boat.
Jura is right, you've had your fun.
</thread>

You are still arguing that the rotation of the earth in Solar Time and the duration of the year are unconnected, when this is clearly not the case.

Solar Time is the illuminated portion of the earth turning around the earth. Think of it like that. 1 rotation in 24 hours.

Looking at the earth on the orbit around the sun in a diagram, the illuminated portion of the earth will be misaligned with the direction of the sun at the end after 365.24 days when the earth returns to the point on the orbit around the sun that it started in.

This is a very clear depiction of the situation, and a refusal to accept the problem is mere denial.

[Tumeni]

The problem seems to be ....

The earth can't rotate 24 Solar Days in a  365.24 Solar Day Year.

Time to call a halt, Tom, when you can't even muster the right figures.

24 days is less than a month.
365 calendar days in a year, 366 in a leap year
365.24 days in a tropical year

[Curious Squirrel]

Yes, Tom. It's definitely me who is confused. Just like with the laser and the boat.
Jura is right, you've had your fun.
</thread>

You are still arguing that the rotation of the earth in Solar Time and the duration of the year are unconnected, when this is clearly not the case.

Solar Time is the illuminated portion of the earth turning around the earth. Think of it like that. 1 rotation in 24 hours.

Looking at the earth on the orbit around the sun in a diagram, the illuminated portion of the earth will be misaligned with the direction of the sun at the end after 365.24 days when the earth returns to the point on the orbit around the sun that it started in.

This is a very clear depiction of the situation, and a refusal to accept the problem is mere denial.

If you're truly still not understanding this (and your second line indicates you aren't, assuming you aren't simply trolling at this point, something I find far more likely) it's no longer an issue of us failing to teach, but you failing to learn. You've had it all spelled out for you quite plainly. I would suggest you take some courses in Astronomy and perhaps Geometry at this point. You're not going to have your disconnect solved over an internet forum if you still fail to see how your basic assumptions are incorrect. Presuming you aren't trolling, this thread has certainly gone a long way to help show how/why you can believe so firmly in the Flat Earth.

[Tom Bishop]

The problem seems to be ....

The earth can't rotate 24 Solar Days in a  365.24 Solar Day Year.

Time to call a halt, Tom, when you can't even muster the right figures.

24 days is less than a month.
365 calendar days in a year, 366 in a leap year
365.24 days in a tropical year

Typo, clearly.

It should read: There cannot be full solar days in a 365.24 solar day year. There cannot be.

The Solar Day is the illuminated portion of the earth rotating around the sun. It will be misaligned with the position of the sun on ANY diagram of the earth's oval path around the sun when the earth returns to the starting point.

It really is not a difficult concept.

[Tom Bishop]

Yes, Tom. It's definitely me who is confused. Just like with the laser and the boat.
Jura is right, you've had your fun.
</thread>

You are still arguing that the rotation of the earth in Solar Time and the duration of the year are unconnected, when this is clearly not the case.

Solar Time is the illuminated portion of the earth turning around the earth. Think of it like that. 1 rotation in 24 hours.

Looking at the earth on the orbit around the sun in a diagram, the illuminated portion of the earth will be misaligned with the direction of the sun at the end after 365.24 days when the earth returns to the point on the orbit around the sun that it started in.

This is a very clear depiction of the situation, and a refusal to accept the problem is mere denial.

If you're truly still not understanding this (and your second line indicates you aren't, assuming you aren't simply trolling at this point, something I find far more likely) it's no longer an issue of us failing to teach, but you failing to learn. You've had it all spelled out for you quite plainly. I would suggest you take some courses in Astronomy and perhaps Geometry at this point. You're not going to have your disconnect solved over an internet forum if you still fail to see how your basic assumptions are incorrect. Presuming you aren't trolling, this thread has certainly gone a long way to help show how/why you can believe so firmly in the Flat Earth.

If you do not want to participate, leave.

There is no explanation for why the illuminated portion of the earth does not line up with the sun on a diagram after 365.24 Solar Days.

[AATW]

The Solar Day is the illuminated portion of the earth rotating around the sun. It will be misaligned with the position of the sun on ANY diagram of the earth's oval path around the sun when the earth returns to the starting point.

It really is not a difficult concept.

No, it isn't.
But you are the only person on this thread who thinks that the earth spinning a non-integer number of times in a solar year is a "problem".
Or, more likely, you're just stringing people along for your own amusement.

[Tom Bishop]

The Solar Day is the illuminated portion of the earth rotating around the sun. It will be misaligned with the position of the sun on ANY diagram of the earth's oval path around the sun when the earth returns to the starting point.

It really is not a difficult concept.

No, it isn't.
But you are the only person on this thread who thinks that the earth spinning a non-integer number of times in a solar year is a "problem".
Or, more likely, you're just stringing people along for your own amusement.

You CAN'T explain it. The illuminated portion of the earth spins around 365.25 times in a Solar Year.

The illuminated portion needs to be pointing at the sun when it reaches the point it started from.

On a diagram of the earth going around the sun the problem is clear. The illuminated portion needs to be pointing in the same place.

[AATW]

On a diagram of the earth going around the sun the problem is clear. The illuminated portion needs to be pointing in the same place.

Why?

[Tom Bishop]

On a diagram of the earth going around the sun the problem is clear. The illuminated portion needs to be pointing in the same place.

Why?

The illuminated portion needs to point at the sun because it comes from the sun. The illuminated portion can't turn 365.24 times on a diagram that illustrates the earth going around the sun to its same spot on the oval path.

[Bobby Shafto]

On a diagram of the earth going around the sun the problem is clear. The illuminated portion needs to be pointing in the same place.

Why?

He's hung up on the illustrations that don't show the extra quarter turn of the globe believing after a full solar year. He thinks the same meridian needs to be facing the earth after 365.24 solar days and that that doesn't make sense if the earth is supposed to have rotated more.

I don't know how to explain it to him any better. I don't want to believe he's messing with us. But I don't know how to proceed without being condescending.

[Tom Bishop]

On a diagram of the earth going around the sun the problem is clear. The illuminated portion needs to be pointing in the same place.

Why?

He's hung up on the illustrations that don't show the extra quarter turn of the globe believing after a full solar year. He thinks the same meridian needs to be facing the earth after 365.24 solar days and that that doesn't make sense if the earth is supposed to have rotated more.

I don't know how to explain it to him any better. I don't want to believe he's messing with us. But I don't know how to proceed without being condescending.

You are misunderstanding a Solar Day and what this is referring to. This is not referring to one point or meridian on earth.

This is referring to the illuminated portion of the earth that rotates around it at one rotation per Solar Day, and which also must work with 365.24 Solar Days in a Solar Year.

In a top down diagram of the earth traveling around the sun, the illuminated portion needs to be the same when it returns to the same point. It needs to point at the sun when it gets to the same point it started from, since obviously, that illuminated portion comes from the sun.