[ghostopia]

Flat Earthers argue that there is no true Flat Earth map. If this is the case, then how do airplanes and ships know which direction to go to. They seems to know which direction to go to get to certain place and approximately how long it takes. How can this happen if there is no "true map"?

If you argue that they are sailing with approximate map, this means you KNOW the approximate orientation of the continent on the Earth. This means you can come up with approximate map which are, to some extent, accurate.

How come there is not such map. Every time we say the distance from the airplane flight disproves Flat Earth map, FE'ers argue "You cannot say that because we do not have a true map".

[OrigamiBoy]

This is on the wiki

[ghostopia]

This is on the wiki

Well, no. If you read other thread where Round Earthers are trying to disprove Flat Earth map, Flat Earthers say that they do not have the true map. Even though we pointed out that no Flat Earth map can exist, they still continues arguing.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0

[OrigamiBoy]

Yup, flat-earthers cant seem to agree on anything except the earth is flat.

[Tom Bishop]

Flat Earthers argue that there is no true Flat Earth map. If this is the case, then how do airplanes and ships know which direction to go to. They seems to know which direction to go to get to certain place and approximately how long it takes. How can this happen if there is no "true map"?

The coordinate system is correct in that you can get to a location by going to a certain coordinate. The coordinate system assumes that the earth is a globe, however, and the coordinate points are mapped onto a sphere. Distances are calculated under this model, and are not directly experienced with any specific onboard tool.

We can't use distances calculated under the assumption of a globe when making a Flat Earth map. We might as well assume that the earth is a globe if we are using a spherical coordinate system. Those distances must be proven.

They know "approximately" how long routes take from past experience, and guess their speed from the theoretical distance traveled.

Per the Southern Hemisphere in the Flat Earth monopole model, the Flat Earth monopole map was not created based on any particular data. It is just a projection of a globe, and has no value in navigation. A true map has yet to be created. The stumbling block is that all listed distances rely upon a Round Earth spherical coordinate system.

[Rama Set]

The coordinate system is correct in that if you get to a location by going to a certain coordinate. The coordinate system assumes that the earth is a globe, however, and the coordinate points are mapped onto a sphere. Distances are calculated under this model, and are not directly experienced with any specific onboard tool.

There are a number of ways to calculate how far you have travelled that can be cross-referenced against GPS or other such mapping devices.  This is not an impenetrable scientific mystery Tom.

We can't use distances calculated under the assumption of a globe when making a Flat Earth map. We might as well assume that the earth is a globe if we are using a spherical coordinate system. Those distances must be proven.

All of these distances are substantiated in surveys by nations and corroborated by multiple sources.  Being an ostrich is not going to make this go away.

They know "approximately" how long routes take from past experience, and guess their speed from the theoretical distance traveled.

Per the Southern Hemisphere in the Flat Earth monopole model, the Flat Earth monopole map was not created based on any particular data. It is just a projection of a globe, and has no value in navigation. A true map has yet to be created. The stumbling block is that all listed distances rely upon a Round Earth spherical coordinate system.
[/quote]

[Roger G]

They know "approximately" how long routes take from past experience, and guess their speed from the theoretical distance traveled.

You can't actually expect people to believe this complete and utter rubbish surely? I know that you don't believe it, so apart from amusement value why pursue it when it has been shown to be rubbish over and over again.

Any pilot flying a long distance route would have to know the exact distance to fly and would also have to know the speed to fly to maximise the fuel consumption of the aircraft. Any miscalculation due to 'Guessing' anything could and probably would have disasterous results putting a large number of peoples lives at risk including the pilot's own life. The balance between all up weight, distance to fly, speed to fly and fuel load is absolutely critical and anybody guessing any part of it would be very stupid. The speeds, payloads and fuel vary for every type of aircraft, every flight and every route, These variations are due to passenger numbers, baggage weight, aircraft performance, prevailing weather and wind conditions and several other lesser factors. To suggest that any part of it is based on unknown factors is either very ignorant or very argumentative at least.

There are a number of ways that accurate aircraft speed is ascertained and this has been covered very fully in other threads as you well know. Don't bother to reply with comments that aircraft often arrive late because they guessed wrong. Aircraft do however take longer occasionally than expected due to changes to headwind strengths, which are relayed to the pilot and also seen by the pilot and the inflight computer systems as a direct read out sourced from ground radar speed, airspeed inertial guidance instruments and gps, all of which work together to give accurate speed and position indications. Aircraft are also delayed by the need to divert around large storms. Ground stations will also be able to keep an accurate track on any aircraft position and speed from their own radar and data information transmitted from the aircraft by its satellite relay systems and transponder. If you would like to see information regularly updated for all to view, just go to any one of a number of online aircraft tracking programmes which will give you constant updates on aircraft positions, speed, height arrival times etc. All very interesting and a valuable tool for any flat earther wanting to find distances and speeds superimposed over an accurate global map. I've even used a tracking programme to follow a friends aircraft as he flew up to a local airfield to give me a flight.

Roger

[inquisitive]

Flat Earthers argue that there is no true Flat Earth map. If this is the case, then how do airplanes and ships know which direction to go to. They seems to know which direction to go to get to certain place and approximately how long it takes. How can this happen if there is no "true map"?

The coordinate system is correct in that you can get to a location by going to a certain coordinate. The coordinate system assumes that the earth is a globe, however, and the coordinate points are mapped onto a sphere. Distances are calculated under this model, and are not directly experienced with any specific onboard tool.

We can't use distances calculated under the assumption of a globe when making a Flat Earth map. We might as well assume that the earth is a globe if we are using a spherical coordinate system. Those distances must be proven.

They know "approximately" how long routes take from past experience, and guess their speed from the theoretical distance traveled.

Per the Southern Hemisphere in the Flat Earth monopole model, the Flat Earth monopole map was not created based on any particular data. It is just a projection of a globe, and has no value in navigation. A true map has yet to be created. The stumbling block is that all listed distances rely upon a Round Earth spherical coordinate system.

Why do you want to make a flat earth map, surely what is needed is a correct map, whatever shape it might be?

[Rounder]

They know "approximately" how long routes take from past experience, and guess their speed from the theoretical distance traveled.

This was true once upon a time, hundreds of years ago in the age of sail, when iron men steered wooden ships across poorly charted seas and gauged their speed by trailing a rope behind them and counting the knots in the rope.  News flash: THOSE DAYS ARE GONE.

A true map has yet to be created. The stumbling block is that all listed distances rely upon a Round Earth spherical coordinate system.

Look, I understand why you want that to be true, why you need that to be true.  Too bad for you it’s NOT true.  We know the speed a modern aircraft achieves for a given engine power.  We know the aircraft’s operating envelope, its upper and lower bounds on speed.  We know the travel times from A to B, and from B back to A.  All this (and more) gives us a very good estimate of the distance from A to B.

[Tom Haws]

There are so many methods available for calibrating and optimizing flight distance models that the following question seems to be the only fair one to ask.

Why do you want to make a flat earth map, surely what is needed is a correct map, whatever shape it might be?

[TomInAustin]

They know "approximately" how long routes take from past experience, and guess their speed from the theoretical distance traveled.

You can't actually expect people to believe this complete and utter rubbish surely? I know that you don't believe it, so apart from amusement value why pursue it when it has been shown to be rubbish over and over again.

Any pilot flying a long distance route would have to know the exact distance to fly and would also have to know the speed to fly to maximise the fuel consumption of the aircraft. Any miscalculation due to 'Guessing' anything could and probably would have disasterous results putting a large number of peoples lives at risk including the pilot's own life. The balance between all up weight, distance to fly, speed to fly and fuel load is absolutely critical and anybody guessing any part of it would be very stupid. The speeds, payloads and fuel vary for every type of aircraft, every flight and every route, These variations are due to passenger numbers, baggage weight, aircraft performance, prevailing weather and wind conditions and several other lesser factors. To suggest that any part of it is based on unknown factors is either very ignorant or very argumentative at least.

There are a number of ways that accurate aircraft speed is ascertained and this has been covered very fully in other threads as you well know. Don't bother to reply with comments that aircraft often arrive late because they guessed wrong. Aircraft do however take longer occasionally than expected due to changes to headwind strengths, which are relayed to the pilot and also seen by the pilot and the inflight computer systems as a direct read out sourced from ground radar speed, airspeed inertial guidance instruments and gps, all of which work together to give accurate speed and position indications. Aircraft are also delayed by the need to divert around large storms. Ground stations will also be able to keep an accurate track on any aircraft position and speed from their own radar and data information transmitted from the aircraft by its satellite relay systems and transponder. If you would like to see information regularly updated for all to view, just go to any one of a number of online aircraft tracking programmes which will give you constant updates on aircraft positions, speed, height arrival times etc. All very interesting and a valuable tool for any flat earther wanting to find distances and speeds superimposed over an accurate global map. I've even used a tracking programme to follow a friends aircraft as he flew up to a local airfield to give me a flight.

Roger

Tom has said that no one knows distances, GPS is unreliable, speeds of aircraft are unknown and many other whacky ideas he has thrown up to derail a great thread on distances.  He knows the Achilles heel of FE is that no flat map can be drawn that accounts for what happens every day in airline flights.  It's all about fear. If he concedes any truth then his whole flat world transforms into a globe.   Case closed.

[Tom Bishop]

There are a number of ways to calculate how far you have travelled that can be cross-referenced against GPS or other such mapping devices.  This is not an impenetrable scientific mystery Tom.

Incorrect. There is no true way to know how fast you are flying through the air without relying on a Round Earth coordinate device.

All of these distances are substantiated in surveys by nations and corroborated by multiple sources.  Being an ostrich is not going to make this go away.

Like everything else, the distances listed in "surveys by nations" overwhelmingly use a Round Earth coordinate system.

[Tom Haws]

There is no true way to know how fast you are flying through the air without relying on a Round Earth coordinate device.

Let's keep this to distances. Distances are the fundamental. There are numerous independent ways to calibrate, check, measure, and optimize the distances traveled by commercial aircraft. This is not a mystery. And it doesn't require any prior assumptions about the shape of the earth. Start flat. Start round. Start with anything. But accept the conglomerate testimony of the measurements. Thank you so much for hanging with this topic and with this forum.

[Tom Bishop]

They know "approximately" how long routes take from past experience, and guess their speed from the theoretical distance traveled.

You can't actually expect people to believe this complete and utter rubbish surely? I know that you don't believe it, so apart from amusement value why pursue it when it has been shown to be rubbish over and over again.

Any pilot flying a long distance route would have to know the exact distance to fly and would also have to know the speed to fly to maximise the fuel consumption of the aircraft.

How do you suppose you would calculate that a Boeing plane would have a cruise speed of 550 miles per hour?

You travel a distance based on the Round Earth coordinate system while running on optimal engine performance, divide by the trip time taken, and find a cruising speed.

Now you have a guestimate on how far your plane can travel according to the Round Earth coordinate distances.

Your experience is that original gauge you made in determining the average cruising speeds. You can apply that old experience to other distances of the Round Earth coordinate system to come up with a guess of what future travel times will be.

[Tom Haws]

If you had a Boeing with a cruise speed of 550 miles per hour, how do you suppose you would have calculated that cruise speed?

Wind tunnels? Short trials? I don't know. Tell us.

You travel a distance based on the Round Earth Coordinate, divided by the trip time taken, and find a cruising speed.

Why Round Earth? Why make such an assumption? Why not just use road distances?

Now you have a guestimate on how far your plane can travel according to the Round Earth Coordinate distances.

Only if you want to. Why do that?

[Tom Bishop]

What I have described is how cruising speeds are determined on airplanes. They fly a route on optimal performance and divide by time. The distance they use is, of course, based on the Round Earth coordinate system, and therefore the cruising speed calculated is based on that schema.

When you use that cruising speed against other Round Earth coordinate system distances you are flying based on a past experience, not a controlled truth.

[Rama Set]

Like everything else, the distances listed in "surveys by nations" overwhelmingly use a Round Earth coordinate system.

Evidence?  I deny this claim until you show otherwise.

[Tom Bishop]

There is no true way to know how fast you are flying through the air without relying on a Round Earth coordinate device.

Let's keep this to distances. Distances are the fundamental. There are numerous independent ways to calibrate, check, measure, and optimize the distances traveled by commercial aircraft. This is not a mystery. And it doesn't require any prior assumptions about the shape of the earth. Start flat. Start round. Start with anything. But accept the conglomerate testimony of the measurements. Thank you so much for hanging with this topic and with this forum.

Can you describe some of these independent methods which don't rely on assumptions about the shape of the earth?

[StinkyOne]

What I have described is how cruising speeds are determined on airplanes. They fly a route on optimal performance and divide by time. The distance they use is, of course, based on the Round Earth coordinate system, and therefore the cruising speed calculated is based on that schema.

When you use that cruising speed against other Round Earth coordinate system distances you are flying based on a past experience, not a controlled truth.

Tom, cruise speed is closely approximated during the design process. I know you are not familiar with this topic, so here is a youtube video from an aeronautical engineer on the design process. It includes all formulas in case you want to work the math yourself. It also includes some of the regulatory requirements for designing a plane. (you can't just slap wings and an engine on a tube and sell it as a plane) This is for light aircraft, not airliners. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the requirements are a little more tight for a jumbo jet. Cruise speed has nothing to do with round Earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnspsMprpa8

[Tom Bishop]

What I have described is how cruising speeds are determined on airplanes. They fly a route on optimal performance and divide by time. The distance they use is, of course, based on the Round Earth coordinate system, and therefore the cruising speed calculated is based on that schema.

When you use that cruising speed against other Round Earth coordinate system distances you are flying based on a past experience, not a controlled truth.

Tom, cruise speed is closely approximated during the design process. I know you are not familiar with this topic, so here is a youtube video from an aeronautical engineer on the design process. It includes all formulas in case you want to work the math yourself. It also includes some of the regulatory requirements for designing a plane. (you can't just slap wings and an engine on a tube and sell it as a plane) This is for light aircraft, not airliners. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the requirements are a little more tight for a jumbo jet. Cruise speed has nothing to do with round Earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnspsMprpa8

Any such analysis of new engines is comparing to past planes and past cruise speeds as a baseline.