Santiago to sydney impossible to see antartica close up
« on: May 31, 2018, 08:48:55 PM »
Ive read an article with pics of quantas flight qf28 flying from Santiago to sydney. Pictures of antartica on the left. Problem is that any sign of antartica starts at 66 degrees south yet i am yet to find a flight that flies that journey or similar that gets lower than 52 degrees south. Seems to be 965miles north. Can anyone plot this flight on an fe map at 52 degrees where both santiago and sydney are at 48 degrees. Hmmmm

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Santiago to sydney impossible to see antartica close up
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2018, 01:00:41 AM »
Ive read an article with pics of quantas flight qf28 flying from Santiago to sydney. Pictures of antartica on the left. Problem is that any sign of antartica starts at 66 degrees south yet i am yet to find a flight that flies that journey or similar that gets lower than 52 degrees south. Seems to be 965miles north. Can anyone plot this flight on an fe map at 52 degrees where both santiago and sydney are at 48 degrees. Hmmmm
Have a look at A Flight over the Antarctic Sea Ice From Chile to Australia (QF28). This flies down to about 71.5°S but would not make sense on any FE map I have seen.

The post is by TWCobra, the screen name of one of the QANTAS pilots flying the plane. It opens with:
Quote from: TWCobra
A Flight over the Antarctic Sea Ice From Chile to Australia (QF28)
[Nov 18 2016] For anyone interested, in a couple of hours I'll be heading out of Santiago heading for Sydney on the QF28. The flight plan has us spending quite a bit of time at 71'30" South and the cloud forecast at the moment shows not a lot of cloud! Lucky I brought 2 GoPros with me!

Fingers crossed for a good time lapse video of the ice pack!

The pic above shows the route. I've been meaning to post something explaining great circle routes and why they are faster. This map will help once I compare it to the Google Earth representation of the track.
There's a lot more detail given, along with photos of the ice-pack from the plane a from satellite images.

Here is a track from FlightAware of another QANTAS Flight QFA28:

FlightAware - Flight QFA28 Santiago to Sydney 2016-05-11
The track they take depends on the winds. Flying further south may be a little further but have less head-wind.
The Sydney to Santiago flights, QF27, fly further north to take advantage of the west to east jet-stream.

Re: Santiago to sydney impossible to see antartica close up
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2018, 07:07:47 AM »
Ive read an article with pics of quantas flight qf28 flying from Santiago to sydney. Pictures of antartica on the left. Problem is that any sign of antartica starts at 66 degrees south yet i am yet to find a flight that flies that journey or similar that gets lower than 52 degrees south. Seems to be 965miles north. Can anyone plot this flight on an fe map at 52 degrees where both santiago and sydney are at 48 degrees. Hmmmm
Have a look at A Flight over the Antarctic Sea Ice From Chile to Australia (QF28). This flies down to about 71.5°S but would not make sense on any FE map I have seen.

The post is by TWCobra, the screen name of one of the QANTAS pilots flying the plane. It opens with:
Quote from: TWCobra
A Flight over the Antarctic Sea Ice From Chile to Australia (QF28)
[Nov 18 2016] For anyone interested, in a couple of hours I'll be heading out of Santiago heading for Sydney on the QF28. The flight plan has us spending quite a bit of time at 71'30" South and the cloud forecast at the moment shows not a lot of cloud! Lucky I brought 2 GoPros with me!

Fingers crossed for a good time lapse video of the ice pack!

The pic above shows the route. I've been meaning to post something explaining great circle routes and why they are faster. This map will help once I compare it to the Google Earth representation of the track.
There's a lot more detail given, along with photos of the ice-pack from the plane a from satellite images.

Here is a track from FlightAware of another QANTAS Flight QFA28:

FlightAware - Flight QFA28 Santiago to Sydney 2016-05-11
The track they take depends on the winds. Flying further south may be a little further but have less head-wind.
The Sydney to Santiago flights, QF27, fly further north to take advantage of the west to east jet-stream.
you're correct. Guess depends on weather as to which route to take etc. Did comapare more than 3 flights. Shame this is the only flaw with fe i cant answer. The rest is easy. Lol

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Santiago to sydney impossible to see antartica close up
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2018, 08:13:21 AM »
Shame this is the only flaw with fe i cant answer. The rest is easy. Lol
You claim that "The rest is easy". Would you then like to explain how, in the flat earth:
  • the angular size of the sun and moon can stay the same when the distance from the observer can vary by a factor of 3.

  • the sun can rise almost exactly due east everywhere, except close to either pole, on earth on every equinox.

  • both poles can receive 24 hour sunlight for a day or so either side of each equinox.

  • the South Pole can receive 24 hour sunlight from the (Northern Hemisphere) Fall Equinox to the Spring Equinox.

  • the width of Australia on the usual Ice Wall map is more than twice it's width in reality.
That will do for now.

Re: Santiago to sydney impossible to see antartica close up
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2018, 08:33:04 AM »
Shame this is the only flaw with fe i cant answer. The rest is easy. Lol
You claim that "The rest is easy". Would you then like to explain how, in the flat earth:
  • the angular size of the sun and moon can stay the same when the distance from the observer can vary by a factor of 3.

  • the sun can rise almost exactly due east everywhere, except close to either pole, on earth on every equinox.

  • both poles can receive 24 hour sunlight for a day or so either side of each equinox.

  • the South Pole can receive 24 hour sunlight from the (Northern Hemisphere) Fall Equinox to the Spring Equinox.

  • the width of Australia on the usual Ice Wall map is more than twice it's width in reality.
That will do for now.
1. Please simplify question
2. Research yourself to see visually
3. Same as q2
3.The fe map is projected from mercator map. Its like saying why is greenland so big when it isn't?


Max_Almond

Re: Santiago to sydney impossible to see antartica close up
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2018, 09:06:46 AM »
Shame this is the only flaw with fe i cant answer. The rest is easy. Lol

Really? How about:

1. Why does the horizon moves progressively below eye level the more we rise in elevation
2. What are we seeing when we see the ISS?
3. How did NASA create the footage from SkyLab in 1973? (video here)
4. What's the altitude of the north star?
5. What's the altitude of the sun?
6. Why do distant mountains that are higher than near mountains appear lower? (explanation here).
7. Why is it impossible to make a flat earth map?
8. If two people in Australia and South America are standing with their backs to the north pole, and therefore facing in different directions, how are they both able to see the southern cross?
9. Why can't anyone make a working scale model of a flat earth-moon-sun configuration, which should be easy, and yet they can do it for a globe earth, which should be impossible (unless it's true)?
10. Why do people in Chile and Quebec - same time zone - not see a different side of the moon?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 09:30:09 AM by Max_Almond »

Re: Santiago to sydney impossible to see antartica close up
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2018, 09:25:09 AM »
Shame this is the only flaw with fe i cant answer. The rest is easy. Lol
You claim that "The rest is easy". Would you then like to explain how, in the flat earth:
  • the angular size of the sun and moon can stay the same when the distance from the observer can vary by a factor of 3.

  • the sun can rise almost exactly due east everywhere, except close to either pole, on earth on every equinox.

  • both poles can receive 24 hour sunlight for a day or so either side of each equinox.

  • the South Pole can receive 24 hour sunlight from the (Northern Hemisphere) Fall Equinox to the Spring Equinox.

  • the width of Australia on the usual Ice Wall map is more than twice it's width in reality.
That will do for now.
1. Please simplify question
2. Research yourself to see visually
3. Same as q2
3.The fe map is projected from mercator map. Its like saying why is greenland so big when it isn't?

He does get you here Rab. Although his answers remind me of a guy at a job interview.

Interviewer: your resume says you are very fast with math calculations. What is 376 times 342 in base 7
Guy: 6466
Interviewer: that's not correct
Guy: true, but it was fast!

Re: Santiago to sydney impossible to see antartica close up
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2018, 09:30:03 AM »
Shame this is the only flaw with fe i cant answer. The rest is easy. Lol

Really? How about:

1. Why does the horizon moves progressively below eye level the more we rise in elevation
2. What are we seeing when we see the ISS?
3. How did NASA create the footage from SkyLab in 1973? (video here)
4. What's the altitude of the north star?
5. What's the altitude of the sun?
6. Why do distant mountains that are higher than near mountains appear lower? (explanation here.
7. Why is it impossible to make a flat earth map?
8. If 2 people in Australia and South America are standing with their backs to the north pole, and therefore facing in different directions, how are they both able to see the southern cross?
9. Why can't anyone make a working scale model of a flat earth-moon-sun configuration, which should be easy, and yet they can do it for a globe earth, which should be impossible (unless it's true)?
10. Why do people in Chile and Quebec - same time zone - not see a different side of the moon?
can you confirm you have not asked these questions before and that if so and not happy with those answers, you have researched yourself?

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Santiago to sydney impossible to see antartica close up
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2018, 11:11:11 AM »
You claim that "The rest is easy". Would you then like to explain how, in the flat earth:
<< I'll put my points below under your answers >>
1. Please simplify question
  • the angular size of the sun and moon can stay the same when the distance from the observer can vary by a factor of 3.
For simplicity let's look at the sun at an equinox for an observer on the equator. 
The geometry is something like this. The diagram was for a slightly different purpose but is close enough:
I'm assuming that on the flat earth the sun is 50 km in diameter and 5000 km above the earth.
For an observer in South America, directly under the sun, the time would be solar noon and the sun 5000 km away, so the angular size is 50/5000 = 0.01 radians or 0.57°.
For the observer 90° further east in Africa the sun is setting and if the radius of the equator circle is 10,000 km so the horizontal distance from the observer to the point below the sun is sqrt(100002 + 100002).
So the total distance to the sun is then sqrt(100002 + 100002 + 50002) = 15,000 km.
Hence when the sun is setting the angular size is 50/15000 = 0.0033 radians or 0.19° - one third the size.
But in reality the setting sun is virtually the same size as it is when directly overhead.
This is, of course, worth a topic of its own and it has one, see Observation of Sun Size During the Day, Started by Bobby Shafto.

Quote from: Gazza711
2. Research yourself to see visually
  • the sun can rise almost exactly due east everywhere on earth, except close to either pole, on every equinox.
I've done all the research I need. I know that here near Brisbane at the equnox the sun does rise as near as I can measure to due east.
My "LunaSol App" also claims that on Wed March 21, 2018 the sun rose at 90.3° - that's near enough for me.
But when I look at the sun's location at sunrise there is no way it can appear in the east unless light from the sun can curve horizontally somehow.
This is how I picture the sun's position at sunrise in Brisbane on Wed March 21, 2018:

If that fits the flat earth model, then the sun would need to rise 37° east of North, not 90° as I know it to be.

If you can find places, not too close to either pole, where this is not true please let's know. I can readily show videos that the sun sets due west in Perth, Western Australia.

Quote from: Gazza711
3. and 4. Same as q2
  • both poles can receive 24 hour sunlight for a day or so either side of each equinox.
and
  • the South Pole can receive 24 hour sunlight from the (Northern Hemisphere) Fall Equinox to the Spring Equinox.
.
No, it is not possible with the usual FE  model for the sun, unless you postulate some very strange spotlight shape. So you really have some explaining to do here.

Quote from: Gazza711
5.The fe map is projected from mercator map. Its like saying why is greenland so big when it isn't?
No the FE map is not "projected from mercator map". In fact the usual Ice-Wall map is a "North Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection" of the Globe earth.
If the earth really were flat then no projection of the flat earth would be needed to make a flat earth map. A flat earth map would be no more than a small scale representation of the full sized earth.
The scale-factor might be say, 1:1,000,000 fir a 40 × 40 cm map and that scale-factor would be constant over the whole map.
This is not possible on a projection of the Globe, where the scale-factor always varies over the map.

Max_Almond

Re: Santiago to sydney impossible to see antartica close up
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2018, 01:04:29 PM »
Shame this is the only flaw with fe i cant answer. The rest is easy. Lol

Really? How about:

1. Why does the horizon moves progressively below eye level the more we rise in elevation
2. What are we seeing when we see the ISS?
3. How did NASA create the footage from SkyLab in 1973? (video here)
4. What's the altitude of the north star?
5. What's the altitude of the sun?
6. Why do distant mountains that are higher than near mountains appear lower? (explanation here.
7. Why is it impossible to make a flat earth map?
8. If 2 people in Australia and South America are standing with their backs to the north pole, and therefore facing in different directions, how are they both able to see the southern cross?
9. Why can't anyone make a working scale model of a flat earth-moon-sun configuration, which should be easy, and yet they can do it for a globe earth, which should be impossible (unless it's true)?
10. Why do people in Chile and Quebec - same time zone - not see a different side of the moon?
can you confirm you have not asked these questions before and that if so and not happy with those answers, you have researched yourself?

Yes.