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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #260 on: June 21, 2014, 03:29:39 PM »
Fine, my memory warped that FAQ, but they did test as a roadworthy material, in some ways surpassing asphalt. I guess Federal Highways doesn't feel it necessary to test the full weight of a tank.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #261 on: June 21, 2014, 03:34:53 PM »
Dammit people, why are you still arguing this?

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #262 on: June 21, 2014, 03:38:18 PM »
Because it keeps progressing in development.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #263 on: June 21, 2014, 03:42:24 PM »
Because it keeps progressing in development.

The opportunity cost of building a solar panel on the road is too high. i.e. this will never be implemented, no matter how hard these people want to live in a cyberpunk utopia.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #264 on: June 21, 2014, 03:51:36 PM »
Because it keeps progressing in development.

The opportunity cost of building a solar panel on the road is too high. i.e. this will never be implemented, no matter how hard these people want to live in a cyberpunk utopia.
I can believe that, it's more about it being possible/impossible though.

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #265 on: June 21, 2014, 04:46:16 PM »
Dammit people, why are you still arguing this?

because nobody wants to argue that the earth is round (it isnt)

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #266 on: June 21, 2014, 04:52:39 PM »
Why would it be impossible for all that at once?
Because of physics. You can't heat up the solar panel's area sufficiently to melt the snow using just the solar panel. I'm ignoring the fact that it would be under the snow and clouds for the time being. The efficiency of solar panels is very optimistically quoted at 15%. Converting this back to heat is quite efficient, let's say 100% for convenience. So we get 15% of the sun's energy converted back into heat. Cool.

Now, how much heat does snow already absorb?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo#Snow

Between 10% and 60% depending on exact conditions. And guess what, usually that doesn't melt the ice. 15% won't do it either. You physically need more energy than you can produce with those panels.
I see the confusion now.  See, I was always under the impression that the panels would use energy from the grid to melt the snow, not it's own solar cells.  It was more of a "no more plow trucks" type of thing then "look at how efficient our panels are".  Where did they make the claim that it'll melt the snow without using any grid power?


Quote
LEDs aren't exactly high powered lights.
Yeah, EEVblog's somewhat generous approximations suggest they would only use 24% of the panels' power, but he assumed a single straight line in the middle, so let's say 20-30% and call it that. I'm happy to admit that 70-80% of the energy can still be used for other stuff (no, not melting the snow, fuck off.), but that's bugger all. Again, going with EEVblog's calculations, we're looking at several hundred Watt-hours per square metre - and you can only use that during the day! For some reason the Solar Roadways people assume that you can magically store energy in the grid - that's just not how it works. You use it or you lose it.
Again, I always thought this was a "use the grid when you need to" system and not a "we don't need any outside energy!"

Quote
But I'm not stupid so I'm converting everything to metric.
Thank you.

So the total area needing to be covered is 6.096*1609.34 = 9,810.53664 m2
Each panel has an area of 1.942383212 m2

So dividing
9,810.53664/1.942383212
Total Panels needed: 5,051
You cannot realistically assume you're covering the entire road with solar panels. You need something there to actually support the cars, and the space for the LEDs, and the electronics.

Peak sun averages about 4 hours.  But let's assume 2 because we have panels flat on the ground instead of at an angle.
You also assume that nothing on that strech of road is currently in shade of any sort. Not objecting to it, just pointing it out.

5,051 at 280watts = 1,414,280 watts.
Nnnnnnope. You will never get STC out of a solar panel. Make that 250W and you're still being generous. But okay, I'm liking where you're going, so let's go on with that number. Let's just keep in mind that anything you say isn't just the minimum - it's less than that.

So the flat cost of $2,020,400/mile and a return of $226/day, it would take roughly 24.5 years to break even.
You assume that the only cost incurred is the solar panel. The return will be lower, and the cost will be higher, but 24.5 years is greater than their 20 years anyway.

But what if we use cheaper panels?[...]
ROI: 10.6 years.
Again, you assume your only cost is the solar panel. It's not. They are putting A LOT of stuff in there. Also, the power losses on this thing would be ridiculous. Watch EEVblog's video, he goes over them rather nicely. You about tripled the actual power you'd get in both scenarios, even though you tried to be realistic.

Heating the road is easy and they've shown it working.
Have they? Could I see it?

It takes more energy than the panels will produce in the winter, but it can be done.
Whoah, whoah, moving-the-goalposts alert. Yes, I'm not denying that it's possible to heat stuff with electricity. I'm doing it in my room right now. Hilariously enough, that's easier to do with asphalt roads since they're better heat conductors. The problem with that is that it'd be EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE - pushing it off to the side of the road is simply more practical.
My goal was a "Magic" number that couldn't possibly be reached.  And it's well above financial practicality at the moment.

Also, we seem to have different concepts on how it ties into the grid.  I've always thought it would use grid energy when it needs it (like at night and during snowy weather) but you seem to think they claim self-sufficiency.  If they do claim that then they're idiots. 

What about the shoulder?  You can have the panels supported with the "utility tunnel" under it which provides the drainage and the underground utility area.  It still has solar panels and you can run heating elements from one end of the road to the other with grid tie-in to warm the asphalt.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #267 on: June 21, 2014, 05:49:06 PM »
Come on guys. This needs to stop. Ask yourself these questions:

"Why don't roads already have LEDs built into them?",
"Why don't roads already have heating elements built into them",
"Why aren't roads already made from toughened glass?",
"Why don't roads already have solar panels alongside them?",
"Why don't road already have pressure sensors built into them?",
"Why don't roads already charge electric cars?"
"Why aren't there already power conduits alongside roads?"

All of the claims of existing need and corresponding solution provided by Solar Roadways can be examined and assessed independently of one another. All of them, to my layman's eye, are left wanting. Munging them all together into one product doesn't make a better product. This isn't Power Rangers. In fact it probably makes it worse.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #268 on: June 21, 2014, 05:53:57 PM »
Come on guys. This needs to stop. Ask yourself these questions:

"Why don't roads already have LEDs built into them?",
"Why don't roads already have heating elements built into them",
"Why aren't roads already made from toughened glass?",
"Why don't roads already have solar panels alongside them?",
"Why don't road already have pressure sensors built into them?",
"Why don't roads already charge electric cars?"
"Why aren't there already power conduits alongside roads?"

If everyone had this line of reasoning then nothing would ever be invented. Just because something hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't/shouldn't be done.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #269 on: June 21, 2014, 05:55:12 PM »
Quote
Will the panels become hotter than asphalt roads? Will they burn us to walk in them in summer?

We haven't tested them (measured the heat) side by side
They have a test patch outside, don't they?  How expensive is a thermometer?  Couldn't they even just feel how hot the glass is compared to asphalt with their hands?
Well, they might live in a colder region (I think Ohio) in which case they can't test how hot it is in hotter climates unless someone wants to give them money to go to Florida and make a parking lot. You do know that sacrificing your livelihood and any other job for the sake of a huge invention is a big investment, right?
???  Are you saying that Ohio doesn't get hot in the summer?  Seriously, they cant put just of their prototype panels on the ground next to an asphalt driveway to get some ballpark temperature readings?  Just what kind of testing have they been doing all this time?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #270 on: June 21, 2014, 05:58:20 PM »
Come on guys. This needs to stop. Ask yourself these questions:

"Why don't roads already have LEDs built into them?",
"Why don't roads already have heating elements built into them",
"Why aren't roads already made from toughened glass?",
"Why don't roads already have solar panels alongside them?",
"Why don't road already have pressure sensors built into them?",
"Why don't roads already charge electric cars?"
"Why aren't there already power conduits alongside roads?"

If everyone had this line of reasoning then nothing would ever be invented. Just because something hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't/shouldn't be done.
Then again, just because something can be done doesn't necessarily mean that it should be done.  After all, everyone has great ideas that won't work.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #271 on: June 21, 2014, 06:04:41 PM »
Just what kind of testing have they been doing all this time?
You can go and read the testing they've been doing.

Then again, just because something can be done doesn't necessarily mean that it should be done.  After all, everyone has great ideas that won't work.
And that's true, but we wouldn't really be the innovative species that we are if we never tried any of our great ideas.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #272 on: June 21, 2014, 07:45:47 PM »
Just what kind of testing have they been doing all this time?
You can go and read the testing they've been doing.

Okay, I will.
Phase II tests performed on the glass so far:

Load testing
Traction testing
Impact resistance testing

The glass has exceeded all expectations and we're really pleased with the results.
So, with all of the load, traction and impact testing, someone couldn't put a hand down to feel how warm the glass got?  It doesn't look like they did any testing on the electronics either.

Also, I like their new numbers page.  It's all fine and dandy to calculate how much electricity the road could theoretically produce, but where are the numbers regarding how much electricity the road would use?

Then again, just because something can be done doesn't necessarily mean that it should be done.  After all, everyone has great ideas that won't work.
And that's true, but we wouldn't really be the innovative species that we are if we never tried any of our great ideas.
I didn't say that we shouldn't try any great ideas, I'm just suggesting that we should maybe think some of these "great ideas" through a little better before sinking millions of dollars into them.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 07:50:31 PM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #273 on: June 21, 2014, 07:57:26 PM »
LOL  Shade trees lining a solar road/sidewalk.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #274 on: June 21, 2014, 08:57:43 PM »
It costs money to think ideas through.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #275 on: June 21, 2014, 10:19:10 PM »
Their website isn't as updated as they update on their facebook page.


They've made posts about walking barefoot on the glass as well as riding a bike.  Both were fine.


But no formal testing was done yet.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #276 on: June 21, 2014, 10:24:41 PM »
Solar panels on roads are a waste of resources and heated roads are a waste of energy. Combine the two and you have a great big waste of time.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #277 on: June 21, 2014, 10:29:55 PM »
Solar panels on roads are a waste of resources and heated roads are a waste of energy. Combine the two and you have a great big waste of time.
So's Candy Crush but you don't see anyone stopping that train. :P
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #278 on: June 22, 2014, 12:42:21 AM »
It costs money to think ideas through.
How much does it cost to realize that the great outdoors are dirty and dirt doesn't do solar panels any favors?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #279 on: June 22, 2014, 01:16:57 AM »
It costs money to think ideas through.
How much does it cost to realize that the great outdoors are dirty and dirt doesn't do solar panels any favors?
Dirt rubs off really easily. It can even wash off with rain.