[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Interesting! I often wondered whether 'The Tao of Pooh' wasn't a half serious, half joke of a book. So the author is seriously writing? How does one take Pooh Bear & make him serious philosophy? I'm not trying to be flippant. I'm genuinely curious.

[fappenhosen]

Fap, Exodus ch. 19-20 should answer your question.

It does thank you. 2 million people did not see God.

Here we go:

First. That's one persons account. The person who wrote Exodus. Of the two million people only one managed to scratch it down onto a tablet. Wow. I'm so startled.

Second. In that account God goes out of his way to make sure he doesn't get seen. Like some kind of insecure and shy fat girl.

Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not approach the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain is to be put to death. 13 They are to be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on them. No person or animal shall be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram’s horn sounds a long blast may they approach the mountain.”

and the Lord said to him, “Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the Lord and many of them perish. 22 Even the priests, who approach the Lord, must consecrate themselves, or the Lord will break out against them.”

23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, ‘Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.’”

24 The Lord replied, “Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the Lord, or he will break out against them.”

WTF is this shit? It reads like the Wizard Of Oz.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Hello, Fap:

That wasn't a nice thing to say. But that is ok. I just happen to be a nice guy today, since its my birthday, and by the way, my fiancée was offended at your rather nasty reference to the Wizard of Oz (which is one of her favourite movies), so on that level, you can bite me.

But on a gentle, kinder level, since I AM a nice guy, I shall be nice enough to post you the full text of Chapters 19 and 20 of the Book of Exodus according to the Jewish Bible. Chapter 19 to follow in this entry, and 20 in the following entry according to the 1917 Jewish Publication Society Translation.

1 In the third month after the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

2 And when they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the wilderness of Sinai, they encamped in the wilderness; and there Israel encamped before the mount.

3 And Moses went up unto G-d, and HaShem called unto him out of the mountain, saying: 'Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:

4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself.

5 Now therefore, if ye will hearken unto My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be Mine own treasure from among all peoples; for all the earth is Mine;

6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.'

7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which HaShem commanded him.

8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that HaShem hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto HaShem.

9 And HaShem said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto HaShem.

10 And HaShem said unto Moses: 'Go unto the people, and sanctify them to-day and to-morrow, and let them wash their garments,

11 and be ready against the third day; for the third day HaShem will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying: Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it; whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death;

13 no hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live; when the ram's horn soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.'

14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their garments.

15 And he said unto the people: 'Be ready against the third day; come not near a woman.'

16 And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.

17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet G-d; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

18 Now mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because HaShem descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and G-d answered him by a voice.

20 And HaShem came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and HaShem called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

21 And HaShem said unto Moses: 'Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto HaShem to gaze, and many of them perish.

22 And let the priests also, that come near to HaShem, sanctify themselves, lest HaShem break forth upon them.'

23 And Moses said unto HaShem: 'The people cannot come up to mount Sinai; for thou didst charge us, saying: Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.'

24 And HaShem said unto him: 'Go, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto HaShem, lest He break forth upon them.'

25 So Moses went down unto the people, and told them.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

And here follows Chapter 20.

1: And G-d spoke all these words, saying:

(Ed: The Ten Commandments Follow in Bold)


2: I am HaShem thy G-d , who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage (Ed: Commandment 1).

3: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me (Ed: Commandment 2).

4: Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth ;

5: thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I HaShem thy G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

6: and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

7: Thou shalt not take the name of HaShem thy G-d in vain (Ed: Commandment 3); for HaShem will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain .

8: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (Ed: Commandment 4)

9: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;

10: but the seventh day is a sabbath unto HaShem thy G-d, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;

11: in six days HaShem made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore HaShem blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12: Honour thy father and thy mother (Ed: Commandment 5), that thy days may be long upon the land which HaShem thy G-d giveth thee.

13: Thou shalt not murder (Ed: Commandment 6); Thou shalt not commit adultery (Ed: Commandment 7); Thou shalt not steal (Ed: Commandment  8 ) ; Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour (Ed: Commandment 9).

14: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife (Ed: Commandment 10), nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

15 And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.

16 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not G-d speak with us, lest we die.'

17 And Moses said unto the people: 'Fear not; for G-d is come to prove you, and that His fear may be before you, that ye sin not.'

18 And the people stood afar off; but Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where G-d was.

19 And HaShem said unto Moses: Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

20 Ye shall not make with Me--gods of silver, or gods of gold, ye shall not make unto you.

21 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.

22 And if thou make Me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones; for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast profaned it.

23 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto Mine altar, that thy nakedness be not uncovered thereon.


Now, if you will observe, good Fap, you will see that God manifested himself to the House of Israel (the 2 million persons I spoke about earlier) in smoke, thunder, lightening, and the sound of a horn. He shook the entire mountain. I suggest very strongly that you read the ENTIRE text of the two chapters, rather than half-assing it and quoting bits and pieces of it out of context. I do hope you enjoy reading the two chapters. If you wish to do further reading, you can find the entire Jewish Bible according to the 1917 text at https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Exodus20.html    Of course, you can also get the 1985/99 revision online as well. Reading the Book of Exodus is what turned me into an Observant Jew. So, enjoy.

[DuckDodgers]

So God was a storm?

[spoon]

What the hell is "G-d"?

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Spoon, not very politely phrased, but an appropriate question nonetheless. That particular edition of the Scripture was written to be sensitive to the feelings of Orthodox Jews. The Orthodox don't write the Name of God on paper, for fear that it could end up in a waste bin, thus profaning it. Therefore, they write 'G-d', which we all know refers to the Deity, but doesn't ACTUALLY spell the word. The same goes for English words like 'Lord' when used to translate 'Adonai', which is itself used in place of the Tetragrammaton 'YHWH' wherever it is found in a Torah Scroll or other part of Scripture. When the Tetragrammaton or its substitute in Hebrew 'Adonai' or the English 'Lord' (or Latin 'Dominus', etc) appear in many Bibles, that particular one uses 'HaShem', which means 'The Name'. Its an Orthodox thing.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Duck, NO! God was NOT a storm. But he manifested himself to the Children of Israel, in, not so much a storm per se, altho' I can see why it might be called that, but shall we say, events that included the voice of God, a horn, as well as fire, smoke, thunderings, lightnings, & the like.

[Ghost of V]

Who is G-D?

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Vaux, read not just the post above yours, but the post above that. I shan't repeat myself.

[beardo]

-Exodus 20:13
"You shall not murder."


-Ezekiel 9:5-7
5. As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion.
6. Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple.
7. Then he said to them, “Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!” So they went out and began killing throughout the city.

[The Terror]

Murder is unlawful killing. If God tells you to kill somebody, go for it!

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Well, yes. That is essentially right. The commandment reads, 'Thou shalt do no murder', even if it is often translated w/ the word 'kill'. I haven't read the passage in Ezekiel in yrs, so that would take some time to review.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

IRUSH, a preliminary answer to your question, & please know that it is only preliminary, is this: After Malachi, the prophesy departed from Israel. @ that time, God ceased to speak directly to His People. The Divine Message had been imparted, now it was no longer necessary to have such close 'babysitting', if you will. Now it is necessary for us to decide what we are going to do w/ the message that has been imparted to us. I am sure that if the Jews ever need another Prophet, God will provide for one. Does that help @ all?

[Rushy]

IRUSH, a preliminary answer to your question, & please know that it is only preliminary, is this: After Malachi, the prophesy departed from Israel. @ that time, God ceased to speak directly to His People. The Divine Message had been imparted, now it was no longer necessary to have such close 'babysitting', if you will. Now it is necessary for us to decide what we are going to do w/ the message that has been imparted to us. I am sure that if the Jews ever need another Prophet, God will provide for one. Does that help @ all?

Do Jews believe that God does nothing at all to aid them in any way?

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

No, of course not. We, like many other persons, believe that God answers personal prayer. & he can of course do so in any way he chooses. I am personally convinced that God has saved my life on more than one occasion. If I tried to explain it, it would take a long time, but I have been the cat w/ more than 9 lives, I assure you. & my other prayers have often (tho' not always) been answered, sometimes in ways that appear to me to be miraculous. So, there you are.

[Rushy]

No, of course not. We, like many other persons, believe that God answers personal prayer. & he can of course do so in any way he chooses. I am personally convinced that God has saved my life on more than one occasion. If I tried to explain it, it would take a long time, but I have been the cat w/ more than 9 lives, I assure you. & my other prayers have often (tho' not always) been answered, sometimes in ways that appear to me to be miraculous. So, there you are.

How is that different from "babysitting" you? I was originally wondering why God does it quietly now, but your reply insinuated that God no longer feels it is necessary to do anything at all.


The more various texts I read, the more it sounds like God is personified as human for some reason. For example, after God flooded the world he realized that was a terrible idea and actually noted a form of regret. i.e. God seems to be learning from experience, rather than knowing with omnipotence the result of his actions. I'm wondering if the texts imply that direct intervention from a deity doesn't work. Is that a theme you feel is present?

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

I must admit, IRUSH, your questions are insightful. Do remember that the Bible, while inspired by God, was written by man, in the part you mention, Moses, to be precise. I don't think that God learns from experience. Further, I don't think the text implies that direct intervention from Deity doesn't work. If they did, there wouldn't be so much of it in Scripture. I think rather, what you are seeing is the Word of God as mediated by the hand of man, say, Moses, for the Torah. He had to write in a way that could be understood by his Bronze Age audience. Does that mean God comes across as having human traits? Well, I suppose it does. But tell me, if Moses were writing to 21st Century Israel right now, what would the Bible look like? I expect that part of not coveting thy neighbour's goods would include his I-Phone. & they would probably include a rule about making phone calls only between 9.00am & 9.00pm! The human inspired authors weren't trying to make God limited or human-like; they were trying to make (cont)

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

him understandable to limited us-things from I'm not even sure how many centuries before the Common Era. Moses was around about 4500 ya, which means about 2500 BCE, so Noah probably would have been what, 4000 BCE? That's only a guess. But Moses had to make his Bronze Age people 4500 ya understand some pretty far out stuff, Dude! (Alright, I'm kidding!) I think you can see my point.

[Rushy]

It seems like God would stop by and have another go at explaining his vision for the future of humanity since most of his teachings have been mucked up by translation errors and cultural analogies that no longer work. That is unless a lack of intervention implies a certain situational contentment, but you do claim that God intervenes but does so silently.

I'm still left wondering why verbal intervention is no longer necessary. I can understand that for a Jew, God doesn't really need to tell you "Oh, that was me, I helped you. You're welcome." However, most of the world is not Jewish and therefore we have two options: God doesn't help them or God helps them but doesn't tell them. Do you think one of those is correct? Please let me know if I am missing something.