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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10580 on: June 20, 2023, 09:53:12 PM »
Yes, that is what the court determined. And on a public interest level, the President was obviously elected to make responsible decisions for the country, and that includes what he decides to do with his papers as he is leaving office.

So.. the President gets to decide what he does with sensitive documents relating to national security. Trump is within his right to drive around with a stack of papers in the back of a pickup truck blowing out all over the freeway? He's the President so he can sell, trade or lose what ever he wants? He has that level of authority.

One of the reasons that we have Republicans supporting the expansion of Russia in Europe and supporting Putin politically, is because they want to BE Russia. They want their chosen leaders to have this level of power. Trump tried to federalize our election data his first year in office. They want a state sponsored media, state church. They want to ban books and incarcerate homosexuals.
Putin can take whatever documents he wants and do as he pleases with them and it makes the Republicans jealous. They saw what Russia did for the government of Venezuela and want them to do it here.

To reiterate my view within the confines of proper language appropriate to the upper forums...
I will never vote for another Republican again.
(Don't even start with all the 'dangers of socialism' BS or the leftist threat from the 'homosexual agenda'. It's all crap, I've heard it all my life.)
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Offline juner

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10581 on: June 21, 2023, 05:12:56 AM »
lmao @ hunter dont @ me

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10582 on: June 21, 2023, 05:12:57 PM »
So after watching legal eagle, I'm convicned that Judge Canon will just let trump off/make the case impossible for him to lose.

Trump will not be persecuted, punished, or inconvenienced because his judge has his case.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10583 on: June 21, 2023, 11:17:40 PM »
So after watching legal eagle, I'm convicned that Judge Canon will just let trump off/make the case impossible for him to lose.

Trump will not be persecuted, punished, or inconvenienced because his judge has his case.

Trump will face many trials, criminal and civil, for his years of treachery. But this insightful quote from a wise person will surface over and over again with renewed relevance...

Like Nixon, everyone around Trump will go to jail and he'll walk away.
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

If the world is flat, it means that I have been deceived by a global, multi-generational conspiracy spending trillions of dollars over hundreds of years.
If the world is round, it means that you’re just an idiot who believes stupid crap on the internet.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10584 on: June 22, 2023, 05:36:14 AM »
So after watching legal eagle, I'm convicned that Judge Canon will just let trump off/make the case impossible for him to lose.

Trump will not be persecuted, punished, or inconvenienced because his judge has his case.

Trump will face many trials, criminal and civil, for his years of treachery. But this insightful quote from a wise person will surface over and over again with renewed relevance...

Like Nixon, everyone around Trump will go to jail and he'll walk away.

Most likely, yeah.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10585 on: June 23, 2023, 03:41:53 PM »
I think the context of "personal recordings" is missing from your logic.  Because otherwise the argument is in direct contradiction to the law.  The law markjo quoted is pretty clear cut and not open to alot of interpetation.

It says that the court did provide context to what is meant by the law. That is the purpose of the court, to interpret the law. In this case they said whatever the president took was a personal record, and anything left was a presidential record:

https://archive.is/20230613213659/https://www.wsj.com/articles/clintons-sock-drawer-and-trumps-indictment-documents-pra-personal-files-13986b28#selection-281.33-281.322

Quote
Although he didn’t keep records in his sock drawer, he gathered newspapers, press clippings, letters, notes, cards, photographs, documents and other materials in cardboard boxes. Then Mr. Trump, like Mr. Clinton, took those boxes with him when he left office. As of noon on Jan. 20, 2021, whatever remained at the White House was presidential records. Whatever was taken by Mr. Trump wasn’t. That was the position of the Justice Department in 2010 and the ruling by Judge Jackson in 2012.

The President has complete authority over personal vs. presidential records:

Quote
Judge Amy Berman Jackson agreed: “Since the President is completely entrusted with the management and even the disposal of Presidential records during his time in office,” she held, “it would be difficult for this Court to conclude that Congress intended that he would have less authority to do what he pleases with what he considers to be his personal records.”

How is former president Trump holding on to national defense secrets in the public interest or fit any reasonable definition of a "responsible decision for the country"?  National defense secrets are neither personal nor presidential records.  They are the property of the agency that created those documents and should have been returned to the respective agency.

They are property of the President to do with as he pleases, as all classification power originates from the president and all executive branches exist at the whim of the President. The executive branches are not above the President, it is the opposite way around. They are the President's records. Trump was President when he did it and decided where they should be located. Mar-a-Lago was obviously security hardened, and has been staffed with Secret Service agents with guns in the time the papers were located there. The photographed classified papers were in the basement, which the SCIF was also in, and which received the most security hardening.

The public has an interest in the papers being with the President in this case so he can go through them and separate out the records for inclusion in the Presidential library.

Even if this was a situation where the President decided to hand them over to the media directly, the public still has a public interest in it since we elected the President to do what is best for the country, which includes disclosure and honesty. The rantings of "Noooo National Secret" seem to ignore that the President is above all the executive branches, is the origin of classification authority, and he is the one who made the secret. The President can make decisions and policies that last for years after his tenure, and can obviously make a decision on what should happen to his papers after he leaves office.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 03:51:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10586 on: June 23, 2023, 05:30:54 PM »
I think the context of "personal recordings" is missing from your logic.  Because otherwise the argument is in direct contradiction to the law.  The law markjo quoted is pretty clear cut and not open to alot of interpetation.

It says that the court did provide context to what is meant by the law. That is the purpose of the court, to interpret the law. In this case they said whatever the president took was a personal record, and anything left was a presidential record:

https://archive.is/20230613213659/https://www.wsj.com/articles/clintons-sock-drawer-and-trumps-indictment-documents-pra-personal-files-13986b28#selection-281.33-281.322

Quote
Although he didn’t keep records in his sock drawer, he gathered newspapers, press clippings, letters, notes, cards, photographs, documents and other materials in cardboard boxes. Then Mr. Trump, like Mr. Clinton, took those boxes with him when he left office. As of noon on Jan. 20, 2021, whatever remained at the White House was presidential records. Whatever was taken by Mr. Trump wasn’t. That was the position of the Justice Department in 2010 and the ruling by Judge Jackson in 2012.

The President has complete authority over personal vs. presidential records:

Quote
Judge Amy Berman Jackson agreed: “Since the President is completely entrusted with the management and even the disposal of Presidential records during his time in office,” she held, “it would be difficult for this Court to conclude that Congress intended that he would have less authority to do what he pleases with what he considers to be his personal records.”

How is former president Trump holding on to national defense secrets in the public interest or fit any reasonable definition of a "responsible decision for the country"?  National defense secrets are neither personal nor presidential records.  They are the property of the agency that created those documents and should have been returned to the respective agency.

They are property of the President to do with as he pleases, as all classification power originates from the president and all executive branches exist at the whim of the President. The executive branches are not above the President, it is the opposite way around. They are the President's records. Trump was President when he did it and decided where they should be located. Mar-a-Lago was obviously security hardened, and has been staffed with Secret Service agents with guns in the time the papers were located there. The photographed classified papers were in the basement, which the SCIF was also in, and which received the most security hardening.

The public has an interest in the papers being with the President in this case so he can go through them and separate out the records for inclusion in the Presidential library.

Even if this was a situation where the President decided to hand them over to the media directly, the public still has a public interest in it since we elected the President to do what is best for the country, which includes disclosure and honesty. The rantings of "Noooo National Secret" seem to ignore that the President is above all the executive branches, is the origin of classification authority, and he is the one who made the secret. The President can make decisions and policies that last for years after his tenure, and can obviously make a decision on what should happen to his papers after he leaves office.

https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/trump-and-the-presidential-records-act/
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10587 on: June 23, 2023, 05:38:39 PM »
A non-lawyer thinks the lawyer who worked directly on the case in question is wrong about what his own case decided. That's a good one.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10588 on: June 23, 2023, 05:54:33 PM »
A non-lawyer thinks the lawyer who worked directly on the case in question is wrong about what his own case decided. That's a good one.

A non-lawyer thinks the gop senior lawyer, arguing on an opinion column.  Yes.  His(the lawyers) opinion is heavily biased.  But maybe Trump should hire him?  Sounds like he's got an iron clad argument.  Along with the "they were all declassified by thinking" and "NARA used Maralago as an archive facility."

Tho if he did argue on that case, he did so against the national archives.  Which means he did not believe the tapes were personal records.  Interesting to see him suddenly change his mind, no?
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10589 on: June 23, 2023, 06:00:15 PM »
But how about this one from Judge Jackson

Quote
We did not hold in Armstrong I that the President could designate any material he wishes as presidential records, and thereby exercise “virtually complete control” over it, notwithstanding the fact that the material does not meet the definition of “presidential records” in the PRA.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10590 on: June 23, 2023, 09:27:40 PM »
They are property of the President to do with as he pleases, as all classification power originates from the president and all executive branches exist at the whim of the President. The executive branches are not above the President, it is the opposite way around. They are the President's records. Trump was President when he did it and decided where they should be located. Mar-a-Lago was obviously security hardened, and has been staffed with Secret Service agents with guns in the time the papers were located there. The photographed classified papers were in the basement, which the SCIF was also in, and which received the most security hardening.

So what you are saying is "Yes, an Ex-President is empowered to turn over sensitive documents to a national adversary in order to form an alliance with the goal of world domination."

I'm guessing you would blame such an event on the fact that the American people freely elected a corrupt President to work closely with Russia. They will get the results they want and deserve.
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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10591 on: June 23, 2023, 10:14:35 PM »
Trump isn't even the president any more, which puts something of an obvious flaw in this "The president can do whatever they want" line of argument.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10592 on: June 24, 2023, 07:55:49 AM »
Trump isn't even the president any more, which puts something of an obvious flaw in this "The president can do whatever they want" line of argument.

They key to his argument seems to be that as president, he has unlimited power with documents that can't be reversed.  So like Biden couldn't reclassify documents or take ownership of them because once Trump claimed them as his, they're his forever to do with as he pleases.


This, of course, is false.  But I'm sure it won't matter.  Trump could sell them all to North Korea while loudly proclaiming they were top secret and he stole them... And he'd still get off because he got the judge in his pocket.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10593 on: June 24, 2023, 01:30:50 PM »
The core problem is that Trump seemingly behaved as if he was still president while he obviously wasn't anymore. I guess he wasn't joking when he tweeted "I WON THE ELECTION!".

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10594 on: June 26, 2023, 07:16:28 PM »
The problem here is that you guys don't know anything and are reading media hype that former president Trump shouldn't have access to top secret information. The President's government access and responsibilities aren't necessarily over when they leave office. Ex-presidents keep their security clearances and can even get classified CIA briefings.

The current authority for former presidents to access CIA information is given as:

32 CFR § 1909.1 - Authority and purpose.

Quote
(b) Purpose. This part prescribes procedures for waiving the need-to-know requirement for access to classified information with respect to persons:

...

(3) Requesting access to classified CIA information as a former President or Vice President.

The Official Fahrenheit 9-11 Reader, Michael Moore - https://books.google.com/books?id=-kmqVwE8x1YC&lpg=PT61&ots=VA9eweSoSD&pg=PT61#v=onepage&q&f=false



https://www.newsweek.com/trump-calls-claims-he-wanted-cut-obama-intelligence-briefings-fake-news-1082650

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Why do former presidents and officials continue to receive intelligence?

In addition to meeting with foreign leaders, former presidents and intelligence officials are expected to receive intelligence briefings for a number of other reasons.

One of the most obvious reasons is so that they can continue to advise the sitting administration and officials on incidents that may either be ongoing or reflect those of the past.

"Having former senior officials hold active security clearances can be critically important for those currently charged with defending our nation," Jamil N. Jaffer, who was associate counsel to President George W. Bush and founder of George Mason University's National Security Institute, told The Washington Post in a recent interview.

"It allows them to turn rapidly to people with significant experience, context and contacts to help interpret the activity of our opponents and to provide wise counsel and guidance, whether that's in the terrorism, foreign policy or any national security context," he said.

The bolded suggests that they get to keep holding security clearances.

And, surprise: Trump still has the same security clearance he had while still in office -

https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-do-security-clearances-allow-trump-keep-files-mar-lago-1751602

Quote
In an episode of the America First podcast with Dr. Sebastian Gorka, the former Trump advisor said the ex-president still had the same security clearances as he did while still in office.

"I still have all the clearances I had in the White House, I have top secret SCI," Gorka added.

"There's a very special aspect to being a president. Not only do you have the top secret clearances—the highest level, including nuclear secret clearance when you are president—guess what? The American system allows you to keep all your clearances until you die.

"Jimmy Carter who's still shuffling around at whatever it is, 95 years old; Bush Jr; Clinton; Obama—all have their clearances. And guess what? So does President Trump. So the idea that he's reading stuff or keeping stuff he's not allowed to is bollocks."
« Last Edit: June 27, 2023, 04:25:07 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10595 on: June 26, 2023, 07:30:44 PM »
The problem here is that you guys don't know anything and are reading media hype that former president Trump shouldn't have access to top secret information. Trump's government responsibilities aren't over when he leaves office. Ex-presidents keep their security clearances and can even get CIA briefings.

The current authority for former presidents to access CIA information is given as:

32 CFR § 1909.1 - Authority and purpose.

Quote
(b) Purpose. This part prescribes procedures for waiving the need-to-know requirement for access to classified information with respect to persons:

...

(3) Requesting access to classified CIA information as a former President or Vice President.

The Official Fahrenheit 9-11 Reader - https://books.google.com/books?id=-kmqVwE8x1YC&lpg=PT61&ots=VA9eweSoSD&pg=PT61#v=onepage&q&f=false



https://www.newsweek.com/trump-calls-claims-he-wanted-cut-obama-intelligence-briefings-fake-news-1082650

Quote
Why do former presidents and officials continue to receive intelligence?

In addition to meeting with foreign leaders, former presidents and intelligence officials are expected to receive intelligence briefings for a number of other reasons.

One of the most obvious reasons is so that they can continue to advise the sitting administration and officials on incidents that may either be ongoing or reflect those of the past.

"Having former senior officials hold active security clearances can be critically important for those currently charged with defending our nation," Jamil N. Jaffer, who was associate counsel to President George W. Bush and founder of George Mason University's National Security Institute, told The Washington Post in a recent interview.

"It allows them to turn rapidly to people with significant experience, context and contacts to help interpret the activity of our opponents and to provide wise counsel and guidance, whether that's in the terrorism, foreign policy or any national security context," he said.

The bolded suggests that they get to keep holding security clearances.

And, surprise: Trump still has the same security clearance he had while still in office:

https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-do-security-clearances-allow-trump-keep-files-mar-lago-1751602

Quote
In an episode of the America First podcast with Dr. Sebastian Gorka, the former Trump advisor said the ex-president still had the same security clearances as he did while still in office.

"I still have all the clearances I had in the White House, I have top secret SCI," Gorka added.

"There's a very special aspect to being a president. Not only do you have the top secret clearances—the highest level, including nuclear secret clearance when you are president—guess what? The American system allows you to keep all your clearances until you die.

"Jimmy Carter who's still shuffling around at whatever it is, 95 years old; Bush Jr; Clinton; Obama—all have their clearances. And guess what? So does President Trump. So the idea that he's reading stuff or keeping stuff he's not allowed to is bollocks."

So again, you are saying a President is within his right to collect secret documents and make them available to our national adversaries?
An Ex-President has no accountability for how he handles secret documents. He can do as he pleases. Just say it.

BTW, maintaining a secret clearance after you leave office doesn't have anything to do with this. The people with clearances are still held to high standards in the way they handle documents.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10596 on: June 27, 2023, 05:29:20 AM »
Its funny how Tom thinks having a security clearance means you can access any document in that level you want.

Its like he's never had or dealt with top secret information.
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10597 on: June 27, 2023, 07:58:46 AM »
One of the articles said that former senior officials have security clearances so that they can be on-call when a situation or crisis happens. Trump and his former officials are expected to refer back to the Trump administration events and provide advice, so obviously they have a need-to-know access to the documents, and may have always had their need-to-know since the time they came in contact with the material. The PRA statutes guarantees the former president access to the documents, as previously quoted. President Trump also implicitly gave himself need-to-know access to the documents when he had them transferred to be with Former President Trump at Mar-a-Lago.

By now it should be fairly clear that this case isn't going anywhere. The premise that Trump had no clearance and just became a regular person after presidency is fundamentally wrong. This investigation will morph into comparative absurdism such as "Did the dozens of  Secret Service agents at Mar-a-Lago carry enough guns or deploy enough security measures when they were guarding the classified information that was stored in the security hardened basement?", as seen by the FBI counting locks on doors in their affidavit, assuming the case isn't simply dismissed altogether. Eventually the partisan DOJ will have to stop lumping the Secret Service in with Trump as "TRUMP" in its documents and admit that the Secret Service was guarding Mar-a-Lago and the classified and potentially-classified documents in the security hardened basement.

Offline Action80

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10598 on: June 27, 2023, 09:19:14 AM »
It is patently obvious that LD, AATW, markjo, and Kramer, believe absolutely nothing of what they type regarding this latest nothing burger...any and all Trump-related news is just fluff to fill the airwaves, while actual criminals continue to line their pockets with money received from trafficking drugs and humans through Ukraine - based switchpoints.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Trump
« Reply #10599 on: June 27, 2023, 09:27:09 AM »
By now it should be fairly clear that this case isn't going anywhere.
Remember when you spent months saying how well it was going for Trump after the election, quoting lawyers and other "experts" who were saying what you wanted to believe?

At best Trump has been reckless and stupid. He wasn't storing the documents securely and he showed them to people he shouldn't have while telling people they were confidential. And then he resisted initial polite requests for the documents to be returned. TL;DR - This is another fine mess he's got himself in to.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"