[Tom Bishop]

What I quoted is in a section called "§ 2205. Exceptions to restricted access"

It's an exemption to any restricted access that is imposed. So even if the archivist claimed that the former president's access should be restricted, the archivist is wrong and the president's rights prevail.

Yes.  To access.  But since Trump did not ask permission to have the documents, he could not be given the access to them.

See, as soon as power moves over, those documents belong to the national archives.  No exceptions.
You'll notice it makes a section stating that the current president can also access the documents.  Because even HE doesn't own them.

But Trump did not make a request for them.

To put it simply:
It would be like if your neighbor says "yeah, you can borrow my lawnmower anytime you ask" so you take it in the middle of the night then claim you don't know where it is.

It's an exemption written in the code. He doesn't need to ask. The archivist could be saying no no no, and the president still has an exemption.

The code also seems to suggest that the the archivist cannot proceed to archive the documents in archival locations without first consulting with the former president on the directors and organization. There is a step which relies on participation of the former President. If the President doesn't want to consult then the Archivist cannot proceed.

https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/presidential-records.html

[Roundy]

All that says is that he has the right to access the documents. It doesn't say he has the right to just take them. And what you just quoted explicitly says they are to be stored at an archival facility. Nice try though Tom, keep it up!

[Lord Dave]

What I quoted is in a section called "§ 2205. Exceptions to restricted access"

It's an exemption to any restricted access that is imposed. So even if the archivist claimed that the former president's access should be restricted, the archivist is wrong and the president's rights prevail.

Yes.  To access.  But since Trump did not ask permission to have the documents, he could not be given the access to them.

See, as soon as power moves over, those documents belong to the national archives.  No exceptions.
You'll notice it makes a section stating that the current president can also access the documents.  Because even HE doesn't own them.

But Trump did not make a request for them.

To put it simply:
It would be like if your neighbor says "yeah, you can borrow my lawnmower anytime you ask" so you take it in the middle of the night then claim you don't know where it is.

It's an exemption written in the code. He doesn't need to ask. The archivist could be saying no no no, and the president still has an exemption.

The code also seems to suggest that the the archivist cannot proceed to archive the documents in archival locations without first consulting with the former president on the directors and organization. There is a step which relies on participation of the former President. If the President doesn't want to consult then the Archivist cannot proceed.

https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/presidential-records.html

Yes, he does need to ask.  The archivist can't say no.  Its really that simple.
Secondly, that little snippit is pretty meaningless for your point.  He's authorized to designate a director of the Trump presidential facility if he wants to have a new facility.  Otherwise it goes into the national archive's bunker or storage.  And consult could be a quick email "hey, I wanna hire Tom Bishop to watch over your stuff.  What do you think?  You hate him?  Well thanks for the input."

He's under no requirement to comply with the former president's opinion on the matter.

[Tom Bishop]

After the reported "raid" on Mar-a-Lago to retrieve documents NARA released a statement that it was actually an ongoing mutual effort rather than a response to a wrong thing that was done. In contradiction to the media hype, they claimed that it was really merely part of an mutual ongoing effort between Trump and NARA -

https://www.newsweek.com/national-archives-denies-raiding-mar-lago-trump-documents-1677324

The National Archives is denying helping to raid Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, to obtain documents left by former President Donald Trump.

On February 8, the the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) released a statement after reports began to circulate regarding the organization receiving 15 boxes of documents. The organization insists that it has been a part of a mutual ongoing effort to retrieve presidential documents, not a raid.

...

Although exact mementos taken from Mar-a-Lago are currently unknown, it's a common procedure after a president leaves office. According to the Presidential Records Act of 1978, the outgoing president must establish "public ownership of all Presidential records" and follow "all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records."

If NARA is saying that it was part of a mutual ongoing procedure and is denying that a "raid" occurred  then that implies that they are saying it is legitimate. The Presidential Records Act says that a president should go through the documents and file personal records separate from Presidential records.

The reality here is that some reporters are using their own ignorance to claim that what Trump did is illegitimate.

[garygreen]

dude why not just read the indictment instead of responding to your own made-up version of what you think it says.

here's the link again in case you missed it: https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000188-a12f-db74-ab98-b3ff4de50000

or listen to what trump's own attorney general is saying:

https://twitter.com/FoxNewsSunday/status/1667899493549764608

[Lord Dave]

After the reported "raid" on Mar-a-Lago to retrieve documents NARA released a statement that it was actually an ongoing mutual effort rather than a response to a wrong thing that was done. In contradiction to the media hype, they claimed that it was really merely part of an mutual ongoing effort between Trump and NARA -

https://www.newsweek.com/national-archives-denies-raiding-mar-lago-trump-documents-1677324

The National Archives is denying helping to raid Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, to obtain documents left by former President Donald Trump.

On February 8, the the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) released a statement after reports began to circulate regarding the organization receiving 15 boxes of documents. The organization insists that it has been a part of a mutual ongoing effort to retrieve presidential documents, not a raid.

...

Although exact mementos taken from Mar-a-Lago are currently unknown, it's a common procedure after a president leaves office. According to the Presidential Records Act of 1978, the outgoing president must establish "public ownership of all Presidential records" and follow "all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records."

If NARA is saying that it was part of a mutual ongoing procedure and is denying that a "raid" occurred  then that implies that they are saying it is legitimate. The Presidential Records Act says that a president should go through the documents and file personal records from Presidential records.

The reality here is that some reporters are using their own ignorance to claim that what Trump did is illegitimate.

O.o
Boy are you slipping hard.
The Raid was in August.  That snippit was from February.
In February, NARA was asking niceky and working with Trump to get ALL the documents back.  Trump, for some reason, decided not to give back all the documents he had.

[Tom Bishop]

After the reported "raid" on Mar-a-Lago to retrieve documents NARA released a statement that it was actually an ongoing mutual effort rather than a response to a wrong thing that was done. In contradiction to the media hype, they claimed that it was really merely part of an mutual ongoing effort between Trump and NARA -

https://www.newsweek.com/national-archives-denies-raiding-mar-lago-trump-documents-1677324

The National Archives is denying helping to raid Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, to obtain documents left by former President Donald Trump.

On February 8, the the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) released a statement after reports began to circulate regarding the organization receiving 15 boxes of documents. The organization insists that it has been a part of a mutual ongoing effort to retrieve presidential documents, not a raid.

...

Although exact mementos taken from Mar-a-Lago are currently unknown, it's a common procedure after a president leaves office. According to the Presidential Records Act of 1978, the outgoing president must establish "public ownership of all Presidential records" and follow "all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records."

If NARA is saying that it was part of a mutual ongoing procedure and is denying that a "raid" occurred  then that implies that they are saying it is legitimate. The Presidential Records Act says that a president should go through the documents and file personal records from Presidential records.

The reality here is that some reporters are using their own ignorance to claim that what Trump did is illegitimate.

O.o
Boy are you slipping hard.
The Raid was in August.  That snippit was from February.
In February, NARA was asking niceky and working with Trump to get ALL the documents back.  Trump, for some reason, decided not to give back all the documents he had.

There was an earlier incident in which the FBI "raided" Mar-a-Lago to retrieve 15 boxes of documents. The February 2022 Newsweek article is referring to that incident. Many in the media reported it as a raid. NARA corrected them and indicated that there was an ongoing mutual relationship and process between NARA and Trump, but the media largely did not report this.

In fact, NARA even reported that NARA was the organization who provided the FBI access to the 15 boxes of records at Mar-a-Lago.

https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2023/nr23-013



From this it is clear that you guys have no idea what is going on and are latching onto the fantasy fiction you read. NARA was maintaining the documents at Mar-a-Lago. The later August 2022 "raid" involved the FBI looking at NARA-maintained documents at Mar-a-Lago.

[markjo]

NARA was maintaining the documents at Mar-a-Lago.

No, Tom.  The 15 boxes of records are what Trump finally turned over to the NARA as the result of the "ongoing mutual effort".  NARA then gave the FBI access to those documents.  If NARA was "maintaining" those documents at Mar-a-Lago, then they would not have needed to keep asking for them back and the FBI would not have needed to execute the raid.

PALM BEACH, Florida - The National Archives last month obtained 15 boxes of presidential records that were being stored at former President Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago Club.

Keeping the boxes of records at Mar-a-Lago violated the Presidential Records Act, which requires the government keep all forms of documents and communications related to a president's or vice president's official duties.

[Tom Bishop]

NARA provided the documents to the FBI from Mar-a-Lago. Where does it say that the FBI went to a NARA office?

NARA was always aware of the documents. If NARA found new documents with the help of Trump staff, it was because it was part of the process of separating personal and presidential records, as indicated by the February 2022 Newsweek article.

Here is an article from the February 2021, a year earlier than that February 2022 Newsweek article that was provided above:

https://www.govexec.com/management/2021/02/records-transfer-trump-white-house-underway/171770/

Records Transfer from the Trump White House is a Work in Progress

February 1, 2021

“As NARA anticipated, the process of completing the transfer of Trump presidential records into NARA’s physical custody is still ongoing,” an agency spokesperson told Government Executive on Friday. “Necessary funding from [the Office of Management and Budget] was delayed for many weeks after the election, which caused delays in arranging for the transfer of the Trump presidential records into NARA's custody. Even though the transfer of these records is ongoing, NARA assumed legal custody of them on January 20, 2021, in accordance with the Presidential Records Act.”

In February 2021, less than a month after Trump left office, NARA said that the presidential records were not already with NARA because they dropped the ball and didn't have the funding. NARA had legal custody of all the records upon Trump leaving office. NARA had anticipated that the transfer of the records to NARA would persist after Trump left the Whitehouse.

From the February 2022 Newsweek article:

https://www.newsweek.com/national-archives-denies-raiding-mar-lago-trump-documents-1677324

"Throughout the course of the last year, NARA obtained the cooperation of Trump representatives to locate Presidential records that had not been transferred to the National Archives at the end of the Trump administration," wrote the Archives in a statement

NARA said that they had been working with Trump representatives from the beginning of 2021 to Feb 2022 to get the Presidential records.

NARA had legal custody, and with that comes the responsibility to provide the resources to secure and maintain the documents and do whatever is necessary. NARA clearly says in the above quote that Trump was participating, so NARA clearly allowed them to be at Mar-a-Lago throughout 2021 after Trump left office on Jan 20, 2021, and all of this is clearly a load of baloney.

[Lord Dave]

Unfortunately, Tom is right.

Trump designated Mar a Lago an official NARA facility with himself as director.

However, after an inspection, they found Trump had completely failed in his duties as director of the facility which includes:

* Documents must be in a secure area accessible by authorized personelle only
* Document containers must be secured from spillage of documents.
* Documents must be kept in a climate controlled environment of 70F, with a humidity of 10%.
* Documents must be inventoried with the director holding the master inventory.
* Documents must be organized in such a way as to provide access with only same clearance level documents in the storage area.
* Documents may not be handled by anyone who does not posess an equal security clearance level to the document and authorization by the facility director.
* Documents may not be removed from storage without authorization from the director.
* Document removal forms must be filed with NARA HQ upon removal of the document for delivery to the requestee as indicated on the Document Request Authorization form.



Long story short: Trump, as director, violated every single requirement of storage.  Thats why NARA wanted them back.
However the afidaviet stating all documents were returned was easily shown to be inaccurate as NARA had their own inventory and so the FBI was informed.


Either way you slice it, Trump violated the law, put lives and national secrets at risk, and he screwed up an easy job.  All so he could brag.

[markjo]

NARA provided the documents to the FBI from Mar-a-Lago. Where does it say that the FBI went to a NARA office?

Yes, Tom.  The documents were from Mar-a-Lago, not at Mar-a-Lago.  Where does it say that the FBI went to Mar-a-Lago to examine the documents?

NARA was always aware of the documents. If NARA found new documents with the help of Trump staff, it was because it was part of the process of separating personal and presidential records, as indicated by the February 2022 Newsweek article.

Where does it say that NARA had personnel at Mar-a-Lago working with the Trump staff to separate Trump's personal and presidential records?  In fact, if there had been someone from NARA at Mar-a-Lago helping separate the records, then the FBI would not have felt the need to raid Mar-a-Lago to retrieve the documents or the Justice Dept. to indict him.

[AATW]

dude why not just read the indictment instead of responding to your own made-up version of what you think it says.

here's the link again in case you missed it: https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000188-a12f-db74-ab98-b3ff4de50000

or listen to what trump's own attorney general is saying:

The more I hear and read about this the more it sounds like Trump could be properly screwed this time.

He took classified documents he wasn't supposed to have when he stopped being President.
Then he stored them insecurely.
Then he showed a couple of them to other people while saying he could have declassified them, but now he can't, and he shouldn't be showing them to the people he was showing them to.
And Trump actively resisted attempts to recover the documents. Chances are if he'd just surrendered them all then that would have been the end of it.

Trump is a proper moron. Finally it looks like there's going to be some consequence, although I wouldn't rule out him getting away with this. Again.

[Action80]

dude why not just read the indictment instead of responding to your own made-up version of what you think it says.

here's the link again in case you missed it: https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000188-a12f-db74-ab98-b3ff4de50000

or listen to what trump's own attorney general is saying:

The more I hear and read about this the more it sounds like Trump could be properly screwed this time.

He took classified documents he wasn't supposed to have when he stopped being President.
Then he stored them insecurely.
Then he showed a couple of them to other people while saying he could have declassified them, but now he can't, and he shouldn't be showing them to the people he was showing them to.
And Trump actively resisted attempts to recover the documents. Chances are if he'd just surrendered them all then that would have been the end of it.

Trump is a proper moron. Finally it looks like there's going to be some consequence, although I wouldn't rule out him getting away with this. Again.

The more you read and hear about the thing, the more you tend to parrot what you read and hear.

None of it actually means a damn thing.

The Espionage Act doesn't even apply here.

If Trump agreed to not run for elected office, the DOJ would simply drop the case. That alone should provide everyone with enough info as to how real the whole "blade of grass in a glass" is...

[AATW]

The more you read and hear about the thing, the more you tend to parrot what you read and hear.

Well, that depends who I read and hear it from. When it's the AG who worked with Trump or legal experts then yeah, I think those are people worth listening to.

If Trump agreed to not run for elected office, the DOJ would simply drop the case.

Citation needed.
I mean, possibly true and I'm not denying there's some political motivation here. But Trump has clearly been a reckless idiot and then doubled down on it instead of just returning the documents when he was asked to. If this is the thing which finally topples him then he's been the author of his own downfall.

[Action80]

The more you read and hear about the thing, the more you tend to parrot what you read and hear.

Well, that depends who I read and hear it from. When it's the AG who worked with Trump or legal experts then yeah, I think those are people worth listening to.

If Trump agreed to not run for elected office, the DOJ would simply drop the case.

Citation needed.
I mean, possibly true and I'm not denying there's some political motivation here. But Trump has clearly been a reckless idiot and then doubled down on it instead of just returning the documents when he was asked to. If this is the thing which finally topples him then he's been the author of his own downfall.

I know you like to continue to parrot the "OMSB" minority, and the work you have done for the past 35-40 years in achieving select positions of power and influence has been very effective. Czar Bush the I is singing loudly in his grave as I type.

But again, the actual truth of the matter in this case is this. The Espionage Act does not and cannot apply in this particular case, given the documents listed in the indictment come nowhere near meeting this language:

"(e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it..."

trump was authorized to possess any documents. Otherwise, it would simply be a case of felony theft.

[Dual1ty]

Apparently, no one cares that Trump is a war criminal and a pharmaceutical terrorist.

You only care about the next thing on the news.

[Lord Dave]

Apparently, no one cares that Trump is a war criminal and a pharmaceutical terrorist.

You only care about the next thing on the news.

For odd reasons,  no one blames trump for the deadly vaccine.  Which is just normal hypocracy from the right.
"We hate everyone involved with the vacciine... Except Trump."

[Lord Dave]

The more you read and hear about the thing, the more you tend to parrot what you read and hear.

Well, that depends who I read and hear it from. When it's the AG who worked with Trump or legal experts then yeah, I think those are people worth listening to.

If Trump agreed to not run for elected office, the DOJ would simply drop the case.

Citation needed.
I mean, possibly true and I'm not denying there's some political motivation here. But Trump has clearly been a reckless idiot and then doubled down on it instead of just returning the documents when he was asked to. If this is the thing which finally topples him then he's been the author of his own downfall.

I know you like to continue to parrot the "OMSB" minority, and the work you have done for the past 35-40 years in achieving select positions of power and influence has been very effective. Czar Bush the I is singing loudly in his grave as I type.

But again, the actual truth of the matter in this case is this. The Espionage Act does not and cannot apply in this particular case, given the documents listed in the indictment come nowhere near meeting this language:

"(e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it..."

trump was authorized to possess any documents. Otherwise, it would simply be a case of felony theft.

I highlighted the important part.

[Action80]

Trying to make it seem as if "was," doesn't extend past the end of his term is ridiculous.

Par for the course, however...

[AATW]

The Espionage Act does not and cannot apply in this particular case, given the documents listed in the indictment come nowhere near meeting this language:

"(e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it..."

Bolded the bit which might help you. Dude, just read the Indictment.

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000188-a12f-db74-ab98-b3ff4de50000

"The classified documents TRUMP stored in his boxes included information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries; United States nuclear programs; potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack, and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack

"As he departed the White House, TRUMP caused scores of boxes, many of which contained classified documents, to be transported to the Mar-a-Lago Club...Trump was not authorized to possess or retain those classified documents

TRUMP showed and described a "plan of attack" that TRUMP said was prepared for him by the Department of Defense and a senior military official. TRUMP told the individuals that the plan was "highly confidential" and "secret". TRUMP also said "as president I could have declassified it," and, "Now I can't, you know, but this is still a secret".

TRUMP showed a representative of his political action committee who did not possess a security clearance as classified map related to a military operation and told the representative that he should not be showing it to the representative and that the representative should not get too close

So, you know. Bad.