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Messages - honk

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1
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: President Joe Biden
« on: January 14, 2025, 02:53:58 AM »
No, you lost the privilege of complaining about electing old men with dementia (I'll assume that calling Biden a conman is projection) by electing Trump over Kamala. It would be one thing if it were still Trump vs. Biden, but it wasn't. We had to endure four years of bleating from conservatives about how Biden's age and mental decline were the worst things we could possibly have in a president, and once the shoe was on the other foot and the Republican candidate was the conspicuously ancient one with an obvious and steep mental decline over the past several years, conservatives proved their lack of sincerity by electing him anyway. You can't go back to pretending that relative youth and unhampered mental fitness are the most important qualities in a president now. Trump is less than four years younger than Biden, and there's ample evidence of him being far less sharp and more erratic than he was eight or even four years ago. He says his nonsense more confidently and aggressively than Biden does, but that doesn't make it any less nonsense. You made your choice - partisanship over mental soundness - and now you have to stick to it.

Incidentally, I love the implication that giving the victims $770 each is such a ridiculous idea that it's just being left without comment, as if an explanation of why that's a bad idea or what a better figure would be is unnecessary. I guarantee you not a single one of the chuckleheads jeering along with the RNC in the comments of that post would have a clue what to say if you asked them what the problem was in person.

2
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: January 11, 2025, 04:37:29 AM »
I did read the article and as I wrote earlier, it is quite obvious Raskin is totally onboard with a Trump presidency...amirite?

Raskin was not trying to or planning to block Trump's certification as president to overturn the election, as Tom's original post falsely suggested. Whether or not Raskin is enthusiastic about a Trump's presidency isn't relevant.

Quote
Raskin said Trump was an insurrectionist. The 14th Amendment already covers this. No need for a new bill.

Section 5 of the 14th Amendment reads, "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." Which makes sense, as it would be very difficult to enforce specific sections of the Constitution as-is that everyone might have a different interpretation of without some sort of authority providing clarification as to how it's going to be enforced, or what it even means to be enforcing it.

You admit that Democrats in Congress were, in fact, threatening or attempting to stop the certification of Trump's victory. So there is nothing further to discuss on this matter.

I didn't "admit" that, nor did I say anything even remotely close to it. Once again, disqualifying someone from running for public office is objectively not the same thing as refusing to certify or attempting to stop the certification of an election that's already happened because you don't like the results. You might think that they're morally equivalent, but they are not the same thing in the same way that black is not white and two is not three. It's not my opinion, but an objective fact.

As for the Greenland news, again, foreign leaders don't have the luxury of telling the President of the United States to fuck off. They have to deal with him whether they like it or not, so naturally they're going to be cordial. If you're going to interpret every boilerplate "we are looking forward to working with President Trump" statement as evidence of complete and total capitulation, then you're going to be very surprised by the end of the month when Trump inexplicably isn't crowned God-Emperor of the entire world.

3
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: January 09, 2025, 02:55:33 AM »
I did read the article and it is spook shit.

I did hear Raskin say exactly what he said.

He said that 9 justices did not want to do his job.

So, he was whining about bullshit.

At least he didn't have his gay badge on when he was whining.

If you had read the article, or even just the first few paragraphs of the article, then you would have known that the "100% fabricated" alleged quote was Raskin supposedly saying, "Let folks cast their votes for Trump if that’s their choice. But mark my words, we won’t be certifying the election. He might win, but we’ll ensure he doesn’t step foot in the Oval Office," not the video clip that Tom posted which I was saying had been taken out of context.

Yeah, no. The argument you are presenting of "no no no, he is just working against someone who is theoretically just like Trump" is a very poor argument. Rep Jamie Raskin went on a media tour telling everyone that Trump should be disqualified.

MSNBC - Rep. Raskin: To know the law is to understand Trump is disqualified from office

Yahoo News - Jamie Raskin on how the 14th Amendment applies to insurrectionists seeking office

Brian Tyler Cohen - Jamie Raskin on constitutionality of Trump disqualification

Forbes - 'The Supreme Court Punted': Jamie Raskin Reacts To Supreme Court Ruling In Favor Of Trump

Here is a quote from the last one:

    Transcript @0:34
    in any event the Supreme punted and said
    it's up to Congress to act and so um I
    am working with a number of my
    colleagues including uh Debbie W and
    Schultz and Eric Swell to revive
    legislation that we had to set a process
    by which we could determine that someone
    uh who committed Insurrection is
    disqualified by section the 14th
    Amendment

So this guy clearly thinks that Trump should be disqualified, and suggests that he was actively working against Trump becoming president.

That's not my argument, and there's no need to try and convince me or anyone else that Raskin wanted to disqualify Trump, because of course he did. When I said "someone like Trump," I meant "someone who has done what Trump has done," because of course they wouldn't be writing a bill that mentioned Trump by name and was all about him specifically. I wasn't saying that this was all a coincidence. My actual argument is that Raskin was not talking about doing what Trump tried to do - stage a coup to stop the rightful winner of the election from taking power. He was talking about using the legal process, in accordance with the Constitution, to disqualify Trump from being eligible to run for president, which no less a body than the Supreme Court said Congress had the constitutional right to do. Regardless of whether or not you feel that doing such a thing is fair or ought to be allowed, the fact is that it is objectively not the same thing as staging a coup with brute force and overturning the results of an election that has already happened.

4
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: January 08, 2025, 06:23:04 AM »
If you had actually read the article instead of just glancing at it, you would have known that "100% fabricated" was in reference to a different quote attributed to Raskin. The article discusses more than one thing that Raskin has allegedly said.

5
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: January 08, 2025, 04:28:49 AM »
That's been blatantly taken out of context. Raskin was talking about the possibility of passing legislation at the federal level that would prohibit someone like Trump from being on the ballot, which is no more than what the Supreme Court themselves said was the appropriate course of action. That last point deserves emphasis - the SC did not rule in Trump v. Anderson that Trump had a guaranteed right to run for president and nobody was allowed to stop him. They ruled that only Congress had the power to determine eligibility for federal office under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, not the states. In any case, Raskin certainly wasn't saying that they were going to refuse to certify Trump's victory.

6
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: January 05, 2025, 10:47:25 PM »
So the answer to Dave's question is yes, basically. "Peace" means "Russian conquest."

7
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: January 05, 2025, 09:42:11 PM »
Oh, I have no doubt that it will be Trump who gets the "credit" for handing over to Putin however much of Ukraine he wants.

8
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: January 05, 2025, 09:17:46 PM »
Again, Trump is the new president. Zelensky doesn't have the luxury of calling Trump out as a Putin lapdog and vowing to defy him. All he can do now is try to flatter Trump so as to hopefully soften the incoming blow. And an unfavorable ending to the war in Ukraine is only "inevitable" because Trump won and will now deliver Ukraine up to Putin on a silver platter. Not because of any sober calculations about the cost of war or as part of any overall geopolitical strategy, but simply because Trump admires Putin and wants to impress him. Every decision that Trump makes is entirely personal. Who has flattered him lately, who does he want to impress lately, who has spent money on him lately? He has virtually no interest in or knowledge of actual policy.

9
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: January 05, 2025, 05:45:59 AM »
I really don't think it's that noteworthy or remarkable that Mexico or any other country is indicating that they want to work with the new president and are willing to change their previous positions to that end. Or, to put it another way, I don't think Mexico changing its position is uniquely conditional on Trump being the president, as if they'd be willing to blow off any other president, but Trump is just such an impressive and fearsome man that Mexico doesn't dare disobey him. America is always a force to be reckoned with in international politics, and the president is always somebody who needs to be taken seriously. There's only so much that world leaders can push back on the president, let alone openly defy him on.

10
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: December 30, 2024, 12:05:56 AM »
That's not how it works. Congress does not have the right to make these kinds of constitutional determinations and take unilateral action on them, let alone for something drastic like overturning an election.
Both houses of Congress voted to convict Trump of insurrection at his second impeachment trial.  It sounds like they already made those sorts constitutional determinations and of took that sort of action.

Only the Senate votes on whether or not to convict in an impeachment trial, and Trump was acquitted with a vote of 57-43, ten votes short of a conviction.

11
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: December 29, 2024, 06:43:11 PM »
Quote
It might be possible the election results will not be certified.

No, it's not.

It's possible, just not likely.
The Constitution provides that an oath-breaking insurrectionist is ineligible to be president. This is the plain wording of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution. “No person shall … hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath … to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.” This disability can be removed by a two-thirds vote in each House. 

Disqualification is based on insurrection against the Constitution and not the government. The evidence of Donald Trump’s engaging in such insurrection is overwhelming. The matter has been decided in three separate forums, two of which were fully contested with the active participation of Trump’s counsel.

That's not how it works. Congress does not have the right to make these kinds of constitutional determinations and take unilateral action on them, let alone for something drastic like overturning an election.

Only in a make-believe world does the act of two impeachments not ultimately qualify as a form of prosecution.

Impeachment is objectively an entirely separate process to criminal prosecution, as it was designed to be. In any case, it was Congress that impeached Trump, not his own administration.

12
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: December 29, 2024, 03:41:21 AM »
Why are we even talking about the historical effects of colonialism or the impact of the royal family as if they have anything to do with this? Trump doesn't know anything about these subjects, nor does he care about them. This is his way of trying to create a legacy for himself as the president. An actual leader who was qualified for the role and knew what they were doing would look to the legislation they champion and sign as their legacy, but Trump, of course, doesn't know or care about policy or governing, so the only things he can think of for his legacy are big, flashy stunts that a kid would understand. Build a giant wall between America and Mexico. Create a whole new branch of the military focusing on space. Have a huge military parade for the flex. Buy Canada and Greenland. Take over Panama. There's no secret plan or clever reasoning. It's just a dumb guy being loud and dumb.

To respond to what Action80 said the other day:

People in Trump's own administration were prosecuting him...it is silly to suggest another administration would not.

Sitting presidents are never prosecuted, so, no, of course he wasn't prosecuted by his own administration. He was investigated, and we saw what those investigations amounted to when Biden took office - two years of apparently doing nothing and a final two years in which Trump was able to run out the clock by appealing to the Supreme Court for protection, which they gave him for political rather than legal/constitutional reasons. Maybe I can amend my previous insistence that Trump won't be prosecuted by a future administration - maybe he will be, but he won't face any meaningful consequences for what he's done. Not because he's innocent, but because he'll continue to game the system until either he dies or the government gives up.

Quote
Gaetz was never going to be AG.

He was a long shot, certainly, but he wasn't a bluff or joke. If Congress had actually approved Gaetz, Trump would absolutely have confirmed him. He wouldn't have said, "Whoa, slow down, I don't really want this guy as AG!" Gaetz is a very bad person who should never have been even considered for the role, and Trump absolutely deserves blame for trying to nominate him, however unlikely it was that he would have succeeded.

Quote
Trump owes his political success to the same people who made Bush, Clinton, and Obama.

I'm not sure what you mean by this or how it's a good response to what I said. If your point was simply that many of Trump's voters had previously voted for Bush, Clinton, and Obama, then...yes, obviously. What I'm saying is that as far as I can tell, Trump has benefited more than any other politician from a purely intuitive belief in his positive qualities that flies in the face of all available evidence. As much as conservatives like to sneer about "feels over reals," they're the ones who live up to that phrase the most. All evidence suggests that Trump is a huge liar, but he feels like he's honest and relatable! All evidence suggests that Trump was a lousy businessman who inherited his wealth and didn't earn it, but he feels like a great businessman - because of that reality show I watched!

Quote
It might be possible the election results will not be certified.

No, it's not.

13
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: December 24, 2024, 04:36:36 AM »
If Trump (and everyone else, including you, by the way) knows one thing, and one thing only, it is he will be prosecuted for anything and everything.

No, he won't. They tried it already (poorly), and we saw what happened. The conservative majority of the Supreme Court protected Trump - not out of any real loyalty to him, of course, but simply out of cowardice - and they'd do it again if Trump appealed to them, which he would do if he were to be prosecuted again. So the next administration almost certainly won't bother trying again, and even if they do, he won't serve a day in prison. That's just the reality, and it's because the legal system (along with the people in it) is too dysfunctional and political in nature to bring Trump to justice, not because he's an innocent man. Trump won't go to jail no matter what he does.

Also, Trump's position on NATO has nothing to do with colonialism or the Monroe Doctrine. Trump doesn't know what either of those things are, and he also doesn't know what NATO is or what it does. As I said in another thread, Trump is simply going by his gut belief that NATO is a dues-based organization where every country "owes" the same amount, and because America pays more than any other countries, it is therefore being taken advantage of by other countries. This isn't true, of course, and anyone who knows even a little bit about NATO knows that it isn't true, but Trump famously trusts his gut over expert opinions or empirical evidence. He's not alone in this, given how (as I've also said in another thread), Trump owes his political success primarily to his voters' gut belief that he's a straightforward, honest, and relatable guy, despite all actual evidence pointing to the fact that he's actually a sleazy idiot.

In other news, we finally have the report that Trump fought so hard to bury about the creep he tried to make AG:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/23/politics/matt-gaetz-house-ethics-report/index.html

This report was released in spite of Trump's efforts, not because of them. Don't let Trump and his surrogates try and turn this into a story about how Trump played 5D chess and cleverly "exposed" Gaetz. No. If Trump had his way, Gaetz would be AG by now and this report would be buried. It's being released now because a few Republicans presumably came to their senses and joined Democrats in voting to release it.

14
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: December 20, 2024, 02:29:20 AM »
All the presidential libraries have raised funds from donors.

Why do you expect Trump to pay for his own?

That is a distinction without a difference. Whether the money first comes from a donor or not, Trump is still the one who has control of the money and makes the decision on whether or not to use it for building a presidential library. Ordinarily, it would be a huge scandal (not to mention downright fraudulent) if a former president simply kept money that was meant to go towards building their library for themselves, but it doesn't matter for Trump. He knows he won't be prosecuted. He knows he won't even lose any support.

15
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: December 19, 2024, 02:38:23 AM »
They can also tag on the charge about Trump putting the $15 million in "his pocket."

LMMFAO!

There hasn't been even a hint of a plan for building a proper Trump presidential library in the four years since he left office. He wouldn't be waiting this long to begin if it were something he actually planned on doing. And before you say it, no, he hasn't been putting it off because he has yet to serve his second term. He had no way of knowing for sure he'd get a second term, and in any case, a second term would hardly change the requirements for his library to such a degree that he couldn't start building it until he was reelected. He just doesn't want to spend the money on it. If he can find a way to get the taxpayers to foot the bill, despite it being illegal, maybe he'll order it built, but most likely, he'll just set up fundraising for his library as a perpetual grift where all money donated goes directly to him. Why not? It's not like he'll be prosecuted over it. Trump's heirs might arrange for a library to be built after his eventual death, but for Trump himself, this is just another hustle.

16
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: December 16, 2024, 04:00:11 AM »
https://apnews.com/article/abc-trump-lawsuit-defamation-stephanopoulos-04aea8663310af39ae2a85f4c1a56d68

There is no way that any judge or jury would have ruled in Trump's favor and judged that a pedantic quibble about sexual abuse rather than rape rose to the level of defamation, let alone awarded anything close to fifteen million over it. This is a peace offering from Disney to Trump, a preemptive surrender now that he's in power once again. It's pathetic. And "presidential library," my ass. Trump doesn't have a presidential library, and he has no plans to build one. The fifteen million will go straight into his pocket.

17
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« on: December 12, 2024, 04:20:41 PM »
As much as the media is partially to blame for Trump's return to power, he was the obvious choice for Person of the Year. It's not an endorsement.

18
With Kamala Harris, there was a general feeling that one never really knew what she stood for and that she was trying too hard to be everything to everyone. That was her biggest mistake and I think people saw through that and resented it. That's why you see all of her word salads. It also seemed as though a big part of her campaign was "Donald Trump bad, Me good .... so vote for me".

And, although Donald Trump does indeed ramble, people at least knew what he stood for. You kind of knew where he was on all of the critical topics and so I think people gravitated to that a lot more.

The idea that Trump was the clear candidate with a well-defined platform while Kamala was the vague candidate who offered "word salads" is quite a take.

I've also noticed when it comes to these election post-mortems that there's usually a tendency to rationalize election results as being logical, and to assume that voters intuited a hidden truth that pundits and commentators just didn't get. I think the pundits who create these post-mortems are worried that they'll be seen as bitter if they attribute the results to illogical or stupid beliefs of voters. But I have no such concerns, so here are my thoughts - I think the main reason Trump won, both this year and in 2016, was his charisma and public image. An enormous amount of Americans don't bother doing any research or following up on political candidates and go entirely by what they see and hear from them on TV. Most of these people just like Trump on a very simple, intuitive level. He doesn't seem to be a typical politician. He's blunt, he's impulsive, he doesn't pause before speaking, he expresses frustration at the dysfunction of Washington. People think, yeah, this guy gets it. He doesn't lie or mince words. He's not like the other politicians. He'd be a real wrecking ball to the establishment. In reality, of course, Trump is an enormous liar and was an extremely corrupt president, and his seemingly blunt and impulsive manner of speech isn't at all indicative of any supposed honesty, but there's no use in explaining that to the people who intuitively feel that he's an honest guy who's fed up with Washington just like them.

Trump has also coasted for a very long time on the false impression created by the reality show The Apprentice that he's a great businessman. The fact is that he's never been that. For one thing, he inherited his wealth and is not the self-made man he pretends to be; for another, The Apprentice deliberately manufactured the idea that Trump was this universally-revered titan of business whom any professional would do anything to work for. Before that show, Trump was best known for his long string of bankruptcies, his scandalous personal life, and his general sleaziness. That was the cultural perception of Trump in the eighties and nineties, and it was so ingrained that he was repeatedly mocked by TV shows and movies ranging from SNL to Sesame Street. But people don't really remember how he was seen in the eighties and nineties; instead, they remember the slickly-produced reality show where Trump was so busy and important that he'd make a dramatic exit in a limousine or helicopter at the start of every episode, the tense boardroom scenes where Trump always cut straight to the heart of the matter by focusing on the issues that we saw the candidates talk about earlier in the episode (almost as if they edited the previous scenes to match up with whatever Trump chose to talk about!), and the numerous young business professionals who were so eager to work for Trump that they'd spend weeks of their lives vying for his attention in a filmed corporate rat race.

There are a lot of things that hurt Kamala in this race, to be sure, and if she could have gotten them right, maybe the above wouldn't have mattered. But as it stands, I think that an intuitive belief in Trump's honesty and relatability based on how he talks and a false impression of Trump's business acumen based on a popular reality show are two major elements of Trump's political success that people - both pundits and the general public - don't really talk about.

Also, this is really minor, but I love this part of the dumb article Tom linked:

Quote
Greer took the ball and ran with it.

Quote
Well, Joy, I have quoted, you know, LBJ [President Lyndon Johnson] on the show several times, but to paraphrase his famous quote, if you give the poorest of the white man someone to look down on, you can pick his pockets all day long, and if you, you know, convince him long enough, he’ll open his pockets for you, and this is what Donald Trump and the Republican Party has consistently done for decades now.

Other than correctly paraphrasing Democrat President Johnson's comments

Did the author really think he had something here by pointing out and emphasizing that Johnson was a Democrat? Was it supposed to be some sort of clever comeback? My guess is that he assumed that Johnson was describing his own cynical strategy for winning over racist voters, when anyone who's even reasonably familiar with Johnson and his achievements in office knows perfectly well that Johnson was of course criticizing what he saw, and while he didn't specifically mention Republicans in the quote, the obvious implication is that that's who he was suggesting was responsible for this. This was, after all, the time of the Southern strategy, something that Johnson would obviously have been very familiar with. Like I said, it's a minor point, but it's interesting in how revealing it is of the author's ignorance.

19
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: President Joe Biden
« on: December 04, 2024, 03:00:48 AM »
Yes, Hunter being Joe's son is pretty funny. Also:

Trump pardoned a load of his mates and cronies...
Call them "cronies," if you like, but the "press visible," ones all related to the RUSSIA, RUSsia, Russia, bullshit news cycle. None of those people deserved any sort of conviction to begin with (it was all made for TV).

Setting aside our opinions on that political news cycle, this simply isn't true. Trump pardoned his cronies Steve Bannon, Rod Blagojevich, Elliott Broidy, Dinesh D'Souza, Joe Arpaio, and Charles Kushner for white-collar crimes that had nothing to do with Russia and they deserved to be punished for. And that last one, Kushner, Trump is now trying to make the Ambassador to France.

20
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: President Joe Biden
« on: December 03, 2024, 03:05:12 AM »
This seems like a pretty stupid power for a president to have. Trump pardoned a load of his mates and cronies, what Biden has done is probably worse.

I don't see how you'd come to that conclusion, given how, as you pointed out, Trump did this exact same thing many times, while Biden did it just once. Is the fact that it's his son and not a crony supposed to make it worse? If anything, I'd say that there's some slight ethical mitigation for it to be his son. I'd sooner forgive a politician abusing his power to protect his son than a politician abusing his power to protect a crony. In any case, though, I agree with you that the pardon power is outdated at best. I'd like to see it be amended out of the Constitution.

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