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Messages - Trolltrolls

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1
Flat Earth Theory / Re: How does FE explain the Eötvös effect?
« on: February 19, 2018, 12:42:42 AM »
Celestial gravitation.
And what is that?
Any calculation to find out the magnitude of this force?
Any experiment to indicate that it exists?
Anything except the name?

There is a search feature.
The search feature led me to the wiki. And that led me to some more funny stuff.
Heavenly bodies? Sure.
And nothing else. Even the pseudoforce, a force that doesn't exist, has a magnitude and direction.

2
Flat Earth Theory / Re: How does FE explain the Eötvös effect?
« on: February 18, 2018, 05:09:01 PM »
Celestial gravitation.
And what is that?
Any calculation to find out the magnitude of this force?
Any experiment to indicate that it exists?
Anything except the name?

3
Flat Earth Theory / Re: If the Earth is accelerating
« on: February 16, 2018, 08:14:26 AM »
No, because the soil and everything else is accelerating at the same rate (even at the particle level). It's sort of the same way with gravity and why accelerometers read 0 in free-fall, even if they're accelerating at 9.8 m / s^2. It's because gravity affects every single particle in the accelerometer, while if you stuck it in an accelerating car, the car would only push on the back of the accelerometer.

FE hasn't given a good reason for the acceleration. They claim they need more time. By the equivalence principle (which they invoke), their model is exactly the same as one that makes an invisible force on those residing on Earth's surface, except this force violates the isotropy of space and is in a preferred direction. So in reality, their model is no simpler than that of gravity. The real problem is that you wouldn't see spheres in space; you would see eggs in space, as the planets are compressed along the axis of universal acceleration.
I though accelerometer read 0 because the pseudoforce of acceleration balances the weight.
Let's take the lowermost soil particle of the flat Earth. It is just accelerating, which means it experiences a pseudoforce in the downward direction. Since nothing else is holding it, shouldn't it get stripped away from the flat Earth disc and do on until there's nothing left.

4
Flat Earth Theory / If the Earth is accelerating
« on: February 15, 2018, 05:43:01 PM »
Wouldn't the soil (at the bottom of the flat Earth) and thus everything get pulled apart because of the pseudoforce of acceleration?
Also, what causes this acceleration?

5
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Other planets
« on: February 15, 2018, 05:39:55 PM »
What force makes them orbit the extremely small (assuming less dense) Sun? Gravity exists in a diminished form as per the wiki, and this new force has no magnitude, no name even.

6
It seems brilliant how Mr. Bishop has distracted all the people in the thread from talking about what may have been a problem for Tom to address to talking about the origins of a quote.
That was in the past, now we have GPS, air flight and lots of other technology that relies upon science. Someone even said the the Wright Brothers did indeed calculate the effect of gravity, centre of mass, etc (This may be wrong, I read someone post this).
The conclusion is that we know that the science we are doing is correct, because the practical outcomes work as expected. Science may or may not be built on a house of cards, but it works and that is all that matters.

7
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Ice Wall Must Be Very Tall
« on: February 15, 2018, 05:05:18 AM »
The earth is covered by the vault of heaven ... the firmament.

The firmament is defined as a crystalline material that enshrines the earth.




IE it keeps the air in. No need for a huge wall.
But heaven only exists in religion. And not all religions. I propose that the Earth stands on an elephant!
Also, no proof, like the ice wall thing.
Also, makes even less sense.

8
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Occam's razor
« on: February 12, 2018, 07:10:15 AM »
You (or the Flat Earth Society if you are just representing their wiki article) have misrepresented Occam's razor. It doesn't prefer the simplest explanation, it prefers the explanation that is no more complicated than necessary.

Or, in other words, it prefers the simplest explanation that explains all the observations.

In the case of germ theory, we can observe that exposing people to a pathogen makes them sick, regardless of whether they know they were exposed and thus eliminate the nocebo effect.

In the case of womb storks, we observe that sex or in-vitro fertilization lead to pregnancy, even if a woman is locked in a building with no stork access.

All of the strawmen in the wiki article are equally pathetic, without regard to contrary obvious observations.
I brought it up because their wiki says it like that.
Now, don't kill me. But what's a strawman?

9
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Occam's razor
« on: February 11, 2018, 12:20:41 PM »
Occam's razor is pretty useless. I read the wiki and I can think of a few more examples:

Which contains less number of assumptions? That a sick person is sick because a microscopic pathogen entered our body and attacked our immune system or that it's just the nocebo effect.

Which has less number of assumptions? That a baby is created because the fusion of two gametes to create a diploid zygote which undergoes the various stages of embryonic development or that the stork plants it in a lady's womb.

Occam's razor is not a good argument at all. There are many things that are more complex than they look, and anybody who doesn't understand the reasons calling it off as an "assumption" really doesn't have any credibility.

10

I think you are being sarcastic but you seem to be claiming that rockets need atmosphere to work, something to push against? They don't. Again, I suggest you do some research on how rockets work and Newton's laws of physics.

And agreed, it is all very cool.

Yes, I've heard that by 'throwing' out fuel, they gain momentum. Apparently this is so effective, they reach speeds of 86 football field lengths in a single second. Makes you wonder why they even burn the fuel while in atmosphere if throwing it is so effective.

But why stop there? If the vacuum of space provides no resistance, why not past light speed? In space, anything is possible.
We must first understand how a rocket basically works. A rocket burns a lot of fuel and expels it with a  lot of force. The same force is hence applied on the rocket which provides it a lot of acceleration. That is pretty much the basic.
As for throwing fuel to gain momentum, ever heard about law of conservation of linear momentum? If not, then you really have no argument, and I can't teach you 12 years worth of education.

11
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Ice Wall Must Be Very Tall
« on: February 10, 2018, 05:38:58 PM »
First off, what is the evidence that the ice wall exists? I think we should start from there. We can by that evidence infer or discover how tall it is and how wide the base is.

What is the evidence that the ice wall exists?

And while we are at that, what is the evidence of the dome? Does the dome start at the ice wall, after the ice wall, on the ice wall, is a part of the ice wall?
I think he's going for proof by contradiction.

12
Flat Earth Theory / Re: How big is the galaxy
« on: February 10, 2018, 05:34:24 PM »
I'll answer in terms of the universe instead of galaxy, because I feel galaxy is just an arbitrary boundary, which has no real meaning.
Here we go again. Snowflakes choosing feels over facts. No one cares how you feel.

The galaxy has a galactic centre. Around which stars, planets, comets, rocks, black holes etc revolve. In flat earth theory the earth is the galactic centre. In RE it is a super black hole some way away that no one has ever actually seen. The things revolving around the galactic centre are part of the galaxy. Anything not revolving around it is not. So drawing a boundary is very easy.

Is it moving with everything else around the centre? Yes? Count it. How far is it? Is it the furthest thing that counts? great. Join the dots of all such objects to get a perimeter. Also screw being British. Why am I forced to spell metre, kilometre, millimetre, with a stupid french 're' and then gas meter, diameter, barometer, parameter and perimeter all get the germanic 'er' treatment. Who decides the centre is re and the perimeter is er? That's bloody ridiculous. Filter/fibre, sober/sabre, enter/centre, colander/calendar ... ar ffs! There's already lots to remember in life!  >o<
As if saying the Earth was flat wasn't enough, but now it's the gravitational centre of the galaxy as well?

13
Flat Earth Theory / Re: How big is the galaxy
« on: February 06, 2018, 06:26:02 PM »
It is vast, likely thousands of miles across, and who knows how deep. It might even be as big (or bigger?) as the Earth.
Just thousands of miles? It in thousands of light years.

14
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Gyroscopes
« on: February 06, 2018, 08:15:17 AM »
This is the same effect as the Foucault pendulum (I think, someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Tom Bishop explains it on the wiki by invoking the "gravitation" of stars many light-years away. Whether you choose to believe him or not is up to you.

The stars are not light years away in FET.
I've also seen on the wiki that gravity exists in a very diminished way as to what is commonly taught.
So, physics (and maths) please! Please show the gravitational pull of stars. Also, wouldn't the pull equate to 0 as stars are everywhere and their vectors would cancel out?

15
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The moon
« on: February 03, 2018, 05:01:49 PM »
Are you telling me that if I put two rulers end-to-end that the length isn't 24 feet?

You work with 12-foot long rulers  ???
Please read the rules (point 3). Reported.
Quote from: Trolltrolls
Sir, are you saying that an entire branch of mathematics stops working at large scales?
I'm sorry your education system failed you.

Surely if the continuous nature of the universe is correct there are tests showing it to be correct. Please show us a test or experiment that has verified Elucid's model.
You made the claim, you provide the evidence.
Also, isn't the point of our advancement in science and math so that we don't have to practically do everything and rely on stuff we know is PROVEN (math). If a person actually measured the distance and verified say trigonometry, who's to say someone will come up to say what about this star, and this star. How do you know trigonometry works on these?

What claim did I make is thread? Asking for evidence of your claims is a position of skepticism. The burden of proof isn't on the skeptic. You need to prove your own claims that we live in a continuous universe.

We need emperical conclusions from direct evidence, not rationalized logic. Why do you think that the universe adheres to an ancient mathematical model that was never really tested to apply to perspective?

Once it can be SHOWN that perspective operates in a continuous fashion, THEN we can expect it to be that way.
You claimed Euclidean Geometry doesn't work (or is not empirically evidenced) on larger scales. You provide the proof. Because all over the world, mathematicians and physicists continue to use mathematical models. Let me say again, mathematics is universal. That's why you prove things in maths instead of verifying.

16
Wut?
I mean what?
Please show your medical reports, your studies, your experiments, your rate of success.
That is what it needed before making a claim, not an anecdote from an unreliable source.
Things do have anti-cancerous properties, that's true. BUT their effect is minute and not able to cure cancer. Do you really think that scientists wouldn't have figured it out by now.
In fact, next time, do an experiment on someone you hate. We'll see how much pain and anguish that person goes through when deprived of modern medicine and subjected to a massive amount of garlic.

17
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The moon
« on: February 03, 2018, 11:32:46 AM »
Are you telling me that if I put two rulers end-to-end that the length isn't 24 feet?

You work with 12-foot long rulers  ???
Please read the rules (point 3). Reported.
Quote from: Trolltrolls
Sir, are you saying that an entire branch of mathematics stops working at large scales?
I'm sorry your education system failed you.

Surely if the continuous nature of the universe is correct there are tests showing it to be correct. Please show us a test or experiment that has verified Elucid's model.
You made the claim, you provide the evidence.
Also, isn't the point of our advancement in science and math so that we don't have to practically do everything and rely on stuff we know is PROVEN (math). If a person actually measured the distance and verified say trigonometry, who's to say someone will come up to say what about this star, and this star. How do you know trigonometry works on these?

18
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The moon
« on: February 03, 2018, 01:30:53 AM »
It's not the reversed orientation that is the problem. Here's a simple diagram:


It really doesn't seem like reversed to me. Put one person further away, and the red dot will be gone. This diagram really seems to be biased.
Quote
author=Tom Bishop link=topic=8653.msg139887#msg139887 date=1517606180]
It's not the reversed orientation that is the problem. Here's a simple diagram:



Elucid's ideas about geometry and perspective was never demonstrated to apply at large scales. When did Elucid ever study how things would look that are hundreds or thousands of miles away?
Sir, are you saying that an entire branch of mathematics stops working at large scales?
I'm sorry your education system failed you.

19
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Planes running into the earth
« on: February 02, 2018, 04:52:33 PM »
The atmosphere is shielded from UA in the same way that people on the surface are. UA posits that less-massive objects (including plants, the air, airplanes, etc) are "shielded" by more massive objects from the spontaneous acceleration force.

Applying the equivalence principle, UA says that objects near a massive object like the Earth experience a force in one particular direction, "downward" on Earth, unlike gravity, which pulls you toward the mass itself. As you get farther from the Earth's surface, the magnitude of this invisible force decreases. I recognize that this is not the UA presented on the wiki; however, before you accuse me of ignorance and/or misrepresentation, this model makes exactly the same predictions and assumptions as UA, per the equivalence principle. Essentially, FE proposes in UA a form of gravity that is normal to the flat surface of the Earth and constant that dies with increasing altitude without explaining its origins. Of course, it cannot be due to the interaction between masses, because they deny that (it would pull the Earth into a sphere after long enough).

It's wrong to talk about axes in isotropic space. Of course in FE, there is a preferred axis, the direction of UA, or the direction opposite it. Then the remaining two axes must simply lie in the orthogonal complement of the space spanned by the basis vector in that direction, but again the choices of directions of the two would be arbitrary, so long as they spanned the requisite space. Or you could just dispense with the remaining two axes, and use a curvilinear 2D coordinate system. But there would be a mathematical preference against a 3D curvilinear coordinate system, precisely because space wouldn't be isotropic under FE, and one straight axis would be physically defined. Essentially, UA would imply the existence of a universal compass. This is quite an assertion; there are various problems that could be elaborated on if anyone made a thread in FE Debate.

Of course, in RE, there is no "z-axis" or "y-axis" other than what you define them to be (I could point the z-axis toward the Sun or toward Tom Bishop's house, and both would be equally valid). The point in Galilean motion and special relativity is that all coordinate systems are equivalent, and general relativity generalizes this by describing the curvature of space using the stress-energy tensor (again absent coordinates).


The variation of g is taken by FE to be the result of "celestial gravitation" -- A standard RE rebuttal is that in essence, they have an invisible force that's just as inexplicable as gravity itself. So much for being simpler. Of course that doesn't explain why it varies almost exactly according to the amount of centripetal acceleration on a rotating sphere at 1.15 x 10^-5 Hz. No FE has written out a formula for "celestial gravitation" that describes the amount of force between two point particles. This is a complete dealbreaker for me, because it doesn't make specific predictions.
As someone with basic knowledge in physics and maths, I didn't really understand the part where you talked about the coordinate system.
My knowledge is that you can choose ANY axis as x,y, or z, it really won't affect one's observation.
So, if the take the axis that this force (which funtions analogous to gravity), occurs in the z-axis (or x or y, doesn't really matter), then the other two axis are independent of whatever goes in the z-axis. Therefore, the air can still leak out.
Also, how exactly are they shielded?

20
Flat Earth Theory / Re: What is the source of the sun's energy?
« on: February 01, 2018, 01:56:11 PM »
I think if you have to tell people you're a genius (especially a 'stable' one), you probably aren't one...

If I'm not a genius, why exactly am a member of mensa? They don't let just anyone in, you know.
I have to say, I doubt how they let people who don't believe in stuff like evolution and history (well, parts of) in.
And, to quote stephen hawking:
"People who boast about their IQs are losers"

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