The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Investigations => Topic started by: Action80 on April 01, 2024, 11:29:20 AM
-
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Rk94NrEtUfQjXrqZYepQq3gOr8uXrSIfDqGd2PGNAmCvY46p7OvKe8h8ER8oNF_VVShl1O45arrG5GT3JTgXHOviSRGTNB9QUF20gzHJ965-YqnzhAWViIAViPgJcreyAv4BDVrMq8Uk37QjxycAsXNPQ-MxG1Xq5feWKiuXYbPIza0JVU0E4mf0IkLGILHU0-4AlqqUjEHscXb01kLew9GQd4KddQN3mBZgTTpy9pOOHNt1dUbaryRknFpdxsFgJeuywoZaAKJ2CLuNQg-sX0DiU7ZKUGQU6Pnc-jFyB5bx3NMb4Bw6JHrWgNgqo_ZW8qcuK4QxG-3hTeXqnJ9vk4ceiTUb_sjINM9-kwKd_DG5JyTDE-dhxxJCZNBrp9rmq5uWz56lnZHVMMVyvmO2o0sE9XxyjpDtXC3jRzy0cxav95r4-zTwYLKn2WvbP94KR5MT0MbyR2gYliECxURRTrH98OAKpIFA_z-AnK5dK5gRLBoSgCU_Kzm1AcrjXIXy8AmbvmBimDjV8r1Ej3nHoXzEtLZkV4vJhiTsBSGlLo_YX8cQHylW6EvRGUPXHDxjfmO9DIuqmShOvkiFZva1A8uAFR13UG3Ztyu_UOZdzk5-XH9JgP4qeNXflBdnSibunfgXSISFjmVWnhTJlX5_WrRy-TD6WqtONy73VHTCRTc=w796-h397-no)
The upcoming total eclipse occurring in my state next Monday in this chart posted by a RE-adherent?
-
As I understand the Saros theory, if there is an eclipse in your state that is not on this table, it will be part of a different Saros Cycle; this table only refers to Saros Cycle Number 145. Or did you think that only 16 eclipses would occur globally over a 260 year period?
-
As I understand the Saros theory, if there is an eclipse in your state that is not on this table, it will be part of a different Saros Cycle; this table only refers to Saros Cycle Number 145. Or did you think that only 16 eclipses would occur globally over a 260 year period?
Not at all.
I was asking for an explanation and I appreciate the answer.
-
It's an admission that they don't have a real eclipse prediction method based on modern RE theories and are still using the Saros Cycle, an ancient pattern-based eclipse predicting scheme created by a society of Flat Earthers.
-
It's an admission that they don't have a real eclipse prediction method based on modern RE theories and are still using the Saros Cycle, an ancient pattern-based eclipse predicting scheme created by a society of Flat Earthers.
Well, that too seems to be the case.
-
It's an admission that they don't have a real eclipse prediction method based on modern RE theories and are still using the Saros Cycle, an ancient pattern-based eclipse predicting scheme created by a society of Flat Earthers.
Can you show the FE method of predicting eclipse paths?
-
It's an admission that they don't have a real eclipse prediction method based on modern RE theories and are still using the Saros Cycle, an ancient pattern-based eclipse predicting scheme created by a society of Flat Earthers.
Can you show the FE method of predicting eclipse paths?
If the Saros cycles originated with a culture adhering to a Flat Earth system, and that is what predicts the paths, then that is the FE method.
-
If the Saros cycles originated with a culture adhering to a Flat Earth system, and that is what predicts the paths, then that is the FE method.
Saros cycles don't predict the exact path.
This site has a list of past and future eclipses, including today's, and explains how the predictions are calculated:
https://eclipsewise.com/solar/SEhelp/de406-predictions.html
The coordinates of the Sun used in these eclipse predictions have been calculated on the basis of the JPL DE406 solar system ephemeris. This ephemeris consists of computer representations of the positions, velocities and accelerations of major Solar System bodies
Doesn't sound like a FE way of doing it to me. There's a lot of people booking hotel rooms on the basis of predictions like this, I reckon we'd know about it if they were wrong.
-
If the Saros cycles originated with a culture adhering to a Flat Earth system, and that is what predicts the paths, then that is the FE method.
Saros cycles don't predict the exact path.
This site has a list of past and future eclipses, including today's, and explains how the predictions are calculated:
https://eclipsewise.com/solar/SEhelp/de406-predictions.html
There is nothing indicating this system is based on RE. It is simply pattern based.
The coordinates of the Sun used in these eclipse predictions have been calculated on the basis of the JPL DE406 solar system ephemeris. This ephemeris consists of computer representations of the positions, velocities and accelerations of major Solar System bodies
Doesn't sound like a FE way of doing it to me. There's a lot of people booking hotel rooms on the basis of predictions like this, I reckon we'd know about it if they were wrong.
Of course they are not wrong. When you have a couple of thousand years of observing repeating patterns, you can pretty much write that down.
-
Saw it today. Transcendent experience, I'm so glad I traveled to Texas to see it. I don't think it really proves anything about the shape of the Earth, but it's definitely a potent reminder of how awe-inspiring (and, dare I say, magical) the universe can be.
-
There is nothing indicating this system is based on RE. It is simply pattern based.
The coordinates of the Sun used in these eclipse predictions have been calculated on the basis of the JPL DE406 solar system ephemeris. This ephemeris consists of computer representations of the positions, velocities and accelerations of major Solar System bodies
And from:
https://eclipsewise.com/help/jpl-de.html
The observational data in the fits has been an evolving set, including: ranges (distances) to planets measured by radio signals from spacecraft, direct radar-ranging of planets, two-dimensional position fixes (on the plane of the sky) by VLBI of spacecraft, transit and CCD telescopic observations of planets and small bodies, and laser-ranging of retroreflectors on the Moon, among others.
Of course they are not wrong. When you have a couple of thousand years of observing repeating patterns, you can pretty much write that down.
Again, the pattern only gives you a fairly rough indication of where and when the eclipse will be. To predict it to the accuracy they do now you have to do a load of more complicated modelling and they do that using a model of the solar system, not a FE model.
-
There is nothing indicating this system is based on RE. It is simply pattern based.
The coordinates of the Sun used in these eclipse predictions have been calculated on the basis of the JPL DE406 solar system ephemeris. This ephemeris consists of computer representations of the positions, velocities and accelerations of major Solar System bodies
And from:
https://eclipsewise.com/help/jpl-de.html
The observational data in the fits has been an evolving set, including: ranges (distances) to planets measured by radio signals from spacecraft, direct radar-ranging of planets, two-dimensional position fixes (on the plane of the sky) by VLBI of spacecraft, transit and CCD telescopic observations of planets and small bodies, and laser-ranging of retroreflectors on the Moon, among others.
What does any of these statements mean relative to the shape of the earth?
Of course they are not wrong. When you have a couple of thousand years of observing repeating patterns, you can pretty much write that down.
Again, the pattern only gives you a fairly rough indication of where and when the eclipse will be. To predict it to the accuracy they do now you have to do a load of more complicated modelling and they do that using a model of the solar system, not a FE model.
They do it using a pattern of historical movements of the sun and moon relative to the celestial sphere coordinates. It has nothing to do with RE or FE.
-
Saw it today. Transcendent experience, I'm so glad I traveled to Texas to see it. I don't think it really proves anything about the shape of the Earth, but it's definitely a potent reminder of how awe-inspiring (and, dare I say, magical) the universe can be.
It could be used to create a juxtapostion map between moon and sun to be superimposed on a FE map to see if it makes sense. RE explains it perfectly. Can a FE model be created that does so?
-
The Solar Eclipse eclipse paths on a Flat Earth make more sense to me than the Solar Eclipse paths on the Round Earth. Consider the map paths on a Round Earth. On the eclipse path maps the Moon's shadow is making quite sharp North-South movements over the course of a few hours. However, the Moon does not orbit the earth in a sharp South-West to North-East angle.
In RE Moon's orbit deviates by only 5 degrees from the plane of the ecliptic, the Sun-Earth plane. It is also only moving slightly slower in the Sun in the sky, setting 50 minutes later each day
https://web.archive.org/web/20190211123505/http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/Astr2016/lectures/skyappearance.htm
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/5/50/Arizona-Moon.jpg)
Consider how the above, with a Moon that moves slowly across the sky in comparison to the Sun, can make all of these wild shapes:
http://eclipse-maps.com/Eclipse-Maps/Welcome.html
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/7/70/RE-FiftyYearsOfEclipses.png)
Curiously, on a Northern Azimuthal FE map, the paths of the Solar Eclipse make symmetrical arcs:
From A Text-Book of Astronomy by George C. Comstock
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34834/34834-h/34834-h.htm
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/8/85/AE-TwentyYearsOfEclipses.jpg)
Fig. 36.—Central eclipses for the first two decades of the twentieth century. Oppolzer.
Future eclipses.—An eclipse map of a different kind is shown in Fig. 36, which represents the shadow paths of [pg. 114] all the central eclipses of the sun, visible during the period 1900-1918 A. D., in those parts of the earth north of the south temperate zone. Each continuous black line shows the path of the shadow in a total eclipse, from its beginning, at sunrise, at the western end of the line to its end, sunset, at the eastern end, the little circle near the middle of the line showing the place at which the eclipse was total at noon. The broken lines represent similar data for the annular eclipses. This map is one of a series prepared by the Austrian astronomer, Oppolzer, showing the path of every such eclipse from the year 1200 B. C. [pg. 115] to 2160 A. D., a period of more than three thousand years.
Also see this image:
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/0/03/Solar_Eclipse_REvsFE.jpg)
-
The Solar Eclipse eclipse paths on a Flat Earth make more sense to me than the Solar Eclipse paths on the Round Earth.
I think I've identified the issue.
This is a bit complicated but this video does a reasonable job of explaining it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujYYlXP12m4
The headline is that straight lines when mapped on to a globe aren't straight when shown on a 2d map projection.
And the earth is rotating at different speeds at different latitudes, which complicates things.
Also note that the width of the eclipse path changes with latitude. The size of the shadow isn't different, it's just that the angle of the earth's surface with respect to that shadow is different which means it can be seen over a wider area.
-
Also see this image:
I'm pretty sure the globe earth paths shown on that are from more than one eclipse, I'd like to see the source for that.
And is your claim that this is an accurate FE map? If so how does it compare with known distances between places?
And how does the Sydney to Santiago flight work on that map? There's literally one in the air right now which you can track here:
https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA27
(at the time of writing, here's a screenshot from about half an hour ago)
(https://i.ibb.co/hDzwXzK/QA27.jpg)
-
The Solar Eclipse eclipse paths on a Flat Earth make more sense to me than the Solar Eclipse paths on the Round Earth.
I think I've identified the issue.
This is a bit complicated but this video does a reasonable job of explaining it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujYYlXP12m4
The headline is that straight lines when mapped on to a globe aren't straight when shown on a 2d map projection.
And the earth is rotating at different speeds at different latitudes, which complicates things.
Also note that the width of the eclipse path changes with latitude. The size of the shadow isn't different, it's just that the angle of the earth's surface with respect to that shadow is different which means it can be seen over a wider area.
That video is titled "Why Do Eclipses Travel WEST to EAST?" and does not attempt to even explain the North-South movements. I am not asking why the eclipses travel West to East. I am asking why they make North-South movements, and make shapes like this:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7nDXBRb5q8P9C2TOiaUafTYyXcba5vsk0zGSgTEWcGA&s)
Not only is there North-South movement, there many of them there is also a point of inflection, with one concave and one convex arch and where the eclipse changes direction.
The shapes are quite radical on a Round Earth, and there appears to be a lack of a coherent explanation for what is occurring here:
http://eclipse-maps.com/Eclipse-Maps/Welcome.html
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/7/70/RE-FiftyYearsOfEclipses.png)
-
That video is titled "Why Do Eclipses Travel WEST to EAST?" and does not attempt to even explain the North-South movements.
It mentions it just after 3 minutes in. To understand this just put Google Earth in Globe mode, define some straight lines across the globe and then go back in to map projection mode. Voila:
(https://i.ibb.co/5WH2CPv/Eclipse-Path.jpg)
Basically, it's a 2D line - the shadow path - mapped on to a 3D object - the globe - which is also spinning. And the rate of that spin varies with latitude.
It's a bit complicated, but if you look at the example at just after 3 minutes in to that video you can have a go yourself to help you understand it. A lot of your FE belief seems to stem from you not understanding the RE model and thus declaring it impossible.
-
It mentions it just after 3 minutes in.
No, it doesn't explain it. This is what it says at the 3 minute mark, that straight lines will look like curves at another angle:
Angle 1:
(https://i.imgur.com/lLQwatq.png)
Angle 2:
(https://i.imgur.com/r9Pq5EN.jpg)
This does not answer why the lines move North-South. It answers a different question of why they might appear curved.
To understand this just put Google Earth in Globe mode, define some straight lines across the globe and then go back in to map projection mode. Voila:
(https://i.ibb.co/5WH2CPv/Eclipse-Path.jpg)
Basically, it's a 2D line - the shadow path - mapped on to a 3D object - the globe - which is also spinning. And the rate of that spin varies with latitude.
It's a bit complicated, but if you look at the example at just after 3 minutes in to that video you can have a go yourself to help you understand it. A lot of your FE belief seems to stem from you not understanding the RE model and thus declaring it impossible.
That's not an explanation for why it travels North-South. This is an explanation for why a line might appear straight on a globe and make those curves on a map projection. You drew the North-South line there, not explained how that could occur in RE with a Moon which moves East to West.
Also, the below are not map projections. The lines do not appear straight or consistently curved here:
http://eclipse-maps.com/Eclipse-Maps/Welcome.html
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/7/70/RE-FiftyYearsOfEclipses.png)
-
That's not an explanation for why it travels North-South. This is an explanation for why a line might appear straight on a globe and make those curves on a map projection. You drew the North-South line there, not explained how that could occur in RE with a Moon which moves East to West.
OK. But why is North-South movement an issue? The rotation of the earth is at an angle so while the shadow may go in a straight line in the East-West direction, that angle means the shadow isn't going to hit the earth at the same latitude as it does so. Plus as I said the earth is rotating as it does so, the ground speed varies by latitude so that adds some complication.
And as I said you get very wide shadows when eclipses appear near the poles - it's not the size of the shadow that's different (although that does change a bit as the moon's distance from us varies - hence annular eclipses when it's too far away to completely obscure the sun), it's the angle of the ground with respect to that shadow that changes.
There is some complication here, admittedly, but a lot of your issues with RE seem to come from you not understanding them and thus concluding they must be impossible.
-
Yes, the RE Earth is tilted in relation to the Ecliptic, and the the area of the Earth deviates to the North or South a bit, but I still would not expect those shapes, locations, or angles the shadow appears and takes. In Round Earth Theory, during the Total Solar Eclipse the Moon is in alignment with the Sun and Earth, on the Ecliptic, so I would expect the shadow to appear on the line of the Ecliptic upon the Earth -- the plane of the Sun-Earth system.
I would expect the Total Solar Eclipse shadow to appear here on this path upon the Earth:
(https://i.imgur.com/iM2M7EA.png)
The Total Solar Eclipse occurs when the Moon is aligned with the Ecliptic and the Sun:
https://www.space.com/solar-eclipses-all-ring-shaped-future
(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/E2LgxWhCN7sg3apVitGLKK.jpg)
Here is a Partial Eclipse, as seen from Earth:
https://rwoconne.github.io/rwoclass/astr1230/4.2-eclipses.html
"Viewed on the celestial sphere from the Earth, the node is where the Moon's celestial path crosses the ecliptic. See the diagram below (click for enlargement). Only if the Sun and Moon are both near the node at the same time can a solar eclipse occur. If the Sun and Moon are both near enough to the node but the alignment is not perfect, a partial eclipse will occur, as in the figure"
(https://rwoconne.github.io/rwoclass/astr1230/im/proj-orbits-soleclipse-seeds.jpg)
Why is the Moon's shadow at the time of the Total Solar Eclipse placed elsewhere other than the plane of the ecliptic upon the earth? The time of the Total Eclipse should be where the Moon intersects the Sun on the Ecliptic.
The "Path of Totality", where the Moon completely completely covers the Sun in Total Solar Eclipse, and the point where the Moon crosses the Ecliptic in the sky to the observer, is often visible to observers from a very odd shape upon the Earth. All of the observers on this darkened path see the Moon completely covering the sun in complete totality:
https://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse/2024-total-solar-eclipse-guide
(https://i.imgur.com/9YzpzqF.jpg)
I understand the desire to obfuscate, but it is clear that there is something not explained here.
-
Why is the Moon's shadow at the time of the Total Solar Eclipse placed elsewhere other than the plane of the ecliptic upon the earth? The time of the Total Eclipse should be where the Moon intersects the Sun on the Ecliptic.
The simple and obvious answer to this is because the earth's not flat with the sun and moon circling above it around a central point. You've asked the exact question that proves the FE model false.
During a solar eclipse, the declination of the moon and sun are identical. In the FE world that puts two objects of nearly equal size directly on top of each other over the exact same latitude line. IF FE were true, at the time of the total eclipse totality must occur at a latitude equal the declination of both. Having the time of the eclipse occur toward the polar latitudes is geometrically impossible.
It is the fact that you have objects orbiting and rotating on different planes that gives you the answer to your question.
-
It is the fact that you have objects orbiting and rotating on different planes that gives you the answer to your question.
They are not on different planes during the Total Solar Eclipse.
During the Total Solar Eclipse the Sun and Moon are on the same plane with the Earth, the Ecliptic. The Moon is on the Ecliptic during the Total Solar Eclipse.
https://socratic.org/questions/why-don-t-we-have-eclipses-every-month
(https://useruploads.socratic.org/FY3Eb7UuQKCy3aqWviJI_nature07987-f1.2.jpg)
"The lunar orbit around Earth is tilted 5.8 degrees to ecliptic apparent path of Sun. Moon goes round the Earth once in 27 days 8 hours. But full moon to full moon is 29.5 days. Eclipses happen only at the point of intersection of both these orbits called nodes."
The Total Solar Eclipse can only occur when the Moon intersects the Ecliptic and the Sun.
The Ecliptic intersects the Earth here as in the previous figure we saw:
(https://i.imgur.com/iM2M7EA.png)
The highest apex above the Equator the Ecliptic touches on the Earth's surface is the Tropic of Cancer. The Tropic of Cancer clearly cuts through Mexico, at a lower latitude than the USA:
(https://i.imgur.com/csjNKQQ.jpg)
Yet in the recent April 2024 eclipse, the Path of Totality where observers could see the Total Solar Eclipse looked like this. The people in these cities saw a Total Solar Eclipse:
(https://www.cantonrep.com/gcdn/presto/2023/03/21/NREP/36874d30-e91c-4d21-82b8-9b128a2a3b83-2024-eclipse-path-3.jpg?width=660&height=372&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GDh4LT7WQAEebbC?format=jpg&name=large)
For some reason the Path of Totality was above the Tropic of Cancer, and was angled northward towards Maine. Why is this?
-
In Round Earth Theory, during the Total Solar Eclipse the Moon is in alignment with the Sun and Earth, on the Ecliptic, so I would expect the shadow to appear on the line of the Ecliptic upon the Earth -- the plane of the Sun-Earth system.
Right. I see what you're saying. This is all horribly out of scale but I think it illustrates the principle of how eclipses can appear at different latitudes:
(https://i.ibb.co/gVmhRdm/Eclipse-Path2.jpg)
In the top diagram the sun, moon and earth are exactly aligned. In that case yes, the shadow appears on that plane.
In the second diagram I've moved the moon up a few pixels - that represents a tiny misalignment but small enough that the shadow still hits the earth, just at a different latitude. In that example it's hitting the north pole and you'll note that the shadow covers a far larger area - the width of the shadow cast by the moon in a vertical direction isn't different, it's just because of the angle of the ground with respect to that shadow it coverers a wider area.
In the third diagram I've moved the moon up further and that's when the shadow misses the earth completely, which is what happens most of the time.
Then you have the complication of the earth spinning. The speed of the ground varies with latitude of course whereas the shadow moves at a constant speed, so that complicates how the path moves. Again, you're mapping a 2D disc of the shadow path on to a 3D spinning object. There is some complexity here.
Your attitude seems to be if you don't understand something then it can't be true. You've said that eclipse paths make more sense on a FE, but all you have to back that up is a series of arcs drawn on a FE map, but you've agreed elsewhere that there is no definitive FE map. I mentioned the Santiago to Sydney flight which was in the air as I was typing, the route of which makes no sense on that map. I note those images come from the Wiki, I had a look at the page about it and it gives no details about how eclipses work on a FE - there's no diagram which explains it like there is for RE.
-
Why is the Moon's shadow at the time of the Total Solar Eclipse placed elsewhere other than the plane of the ecliptic upon the earth? The time of the Total Eclipse should be where the Moon intersects the Sun on the Ecliptic.
The "Path of Totality", where the Moon completely completely covers the Sun in Total Solar Eclipse, and the point where the Moon crosses the Ecliptic in the sky to the observer, is often visible to observers from a very odd shape upon the Earth. All of the observers on this darkened path see the Moon completely covering the sun in complete totality:
https://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse/2024-total-solar-eclipse-guide
(https://i.imgur.com/9YzpzqF.jpg)
If you plot that path on an actual globe, you will see it's a perfect RE-based arc (in 3D that is). If you look at that line straight on, it will be straight, and in perfect sync with RE theory.
-
Quite by chance I came across this short explanation of the path of an eclipse on a round earth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujYYlXP12m4
You might find it answers some of the above questions.
-
Quite by chance I came across this short explanation of the path of an eclipse on a round earth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujYYlXP12m4
You might find it answers some of the above questions.
If there was ever more solid evidence of a pure bot thread response than ^this, I would be shocked.
Reposts a video already posted in the same thread and introduces it as something happened upon "quite by chance."
I mean, you're shitting me, right?
-
..Reposts a video already posted in the same thread ...
Why so I have, how embarrassing. :o Very careless of me, I apologise.