Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1500 on: November 08, 2014, 07:15:09 PM »
Does this mean it is forbidden for women to wear pants?

Traditionally speaking, and among your extreme Orthodox communities, yes.


Does this mean it is forbidden for women to wear pants?
Yes but men can totally wear dresses.

Ah, no, they can't.


Quote
The same code where a man is forbidden to be castrated (or for that matter, any male creature)

Quote
Why do you keep constantly breaking that one?

How am I breaking that one?

Quote
I'm not sure you know what castration is.

Indeed, I wonder if he knows what it is.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 07:17:06 PM by Yonah ben Amittai »

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8541
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1501 on: November 08, 2014, 10:53:34 PM »
Why are Jews so naturally feminine that without a beard or men's clothing they are indistinguishable from females?

Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1502 on: November 09, 2014, 12:31:52 AM »
Why are Jews so naturally feminine that without a beard or men's clothing they are indistinguishable from females?

God made them in his image and appartently God is a woman.

next question.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1503 on: November 09, 2014, 12:44:45 AM »
Why are Jews so naturally feminine that without a beard or men's clothing they are indistinguishable from females?

Actually, no. It should be noted that Muslims have the same rules. They, of course, borrowed them from us.

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8541
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1504 on: November 09, 2014, 01:32:17 AM »
Actually, no. It should be noted that Muslims have the same rules. They, of course, borrowed them from us.

Why are both Jews and Muslims naturally feminine? As I am in the military, I am around men without beards (and men and women wear the same uniforms). Should I ask any apparently female member if they are Jewish or Muslim just in case they are a man who looks like a woman?

Speaking of which, how does Judaism reconcile wearing gas masks? Surely the Bible doesn't say "don't shave your beard, unless the enemy might use chemical attacks and you need a gas mask."
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 01:37:03 AM by Irushwithscvs »

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1505 on: November 09, 2014, 02:09:45 AM »
Actually, in the interest of saving lives, any Jewish law may be dispensed with, which is why shaving to be part of the military is permitted, or to be a firefighter, and so-forth. Also, doctors using cell phones, or working on Shabbat, and so-forth. And you have to understand when the rules were made. At the the time, all the nations around Israel were in the practice of the effeminate eunuch, who was the receiving end of a homosexual pairing wherein the ruler would be dominant, and the eunuch would be submissive, shaving his beard to be more feminine. This practice was forbidden in Israel, as was the whole idea of men lying with men, or castration at all.

The whole point of this was that God wanted the Jews to be distinctively male and female, rather than mixed, as the nations around them were. Again, I think that this was not speaking of homosexuality as such, but of heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts, although the jury is still out on that one. As to why females aren't mentioned more, well, that's an interesting question.  Granted, they the society was more patriarchal, but then, there is a great deal of material written on women regarding Niddah, and purity, and matters of that sort, so surely, if God had been concerned for their sexual purity to the degree that he was men's, I am sure he would have said something.

In fact, most Jews are convinced that women are naturally more spiritual than men. Men are required to worship three times a day, in synagogue if possible. Women are required to pray once a day, at home, especially when raising children, and when taking time from the home would cause her to be less able to attend to the needs of her husband and especially children.

Now mind you, I am giving you an Orthodox, and an EXTREMELY Traditional Orthodox,view of the world, view on the matter. The reason I am doing this is not necessarily because I am exactly of those views. In fact, although I consider myself a fairly Traditional Jew, my own marriage is not at all like the above. How could it be, with me on Disability, and my wife working outside the home and being a Goy, albeit a conservative one, at that?

The reason I am giving you the Orthodox viewpoint is because most religious Jews in the world hold to it, and the ones that don't are changing those views. Those are the ones they are basing their changes on. So when you ask a Conservative or Reform Jew what traditions he adheres to and what ones he changes, he will tell you based on the Orthodox ones I am giving you.

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8541
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1506 on: November 09, 2014, 02:28:24 AM »
That makes sense, but it is a bit weird of a view to hold today. It seems like the Jews need a thunderstorm to update their instruction manual.

*

Offline Tau

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 911
  • Magistrum Fallaciae
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1507 on: November 09, 2014, 03:58:13 AM »
Why is the Bible (and by extension, God) so sexist? As a followup question, since God is the most perfect being and he is sexist does this make sexism an admirable trait? Are you sexist enough to get into heaven?
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1508 on: November 09, 2014, 03:36:15 PM »
That makes sense, but it is a bit weird of a view to hold today. It seems like the Jews need a thunderstorm to update their instruction manual.

Well, interesting point, but lets look at that. Remember that in our 4000 year history, up until the last two hundred years ago, Jews lived only with other Jews. This was for two reasons: 1, Gentile governments, both Christian and Muslim required it. 2, Jews eventually learned to prefer it.

With Emancipation (in the Christian World during the Enlightenment) and the parallel Haskalah (the Jewish Enlightenment), and freedom from the ghetto, Jews for the first time begin to live amongst other persons.

It was then that Moses Mendelsohn (grandfather of the composer Felix) translated the Torah into German, and, although he personally was Orthodox, did a lot of things that would lead to the eventual development of Reform Judaism in the next Century.

Whilst Jews lived amongst themselves, the social pressures exerted within the community kept certain things very low. For example, alcoholism among Jews was a very minor issue when Jews lived only with each other, because social pressure kept it that way. It was only when Jews started living with others that that changed. Now, if you compare Jews to non-Jews, it is only slightly less than the average.

Although the views that you perceive as "weird" today may seem a bit unusual, you will note that, among the shtetls that still exist (small towns that are still predominantly Jewish [85% or more]) the socialisation process is still very much like it was, with divorce rates very low, alcoholism also low, STDs very low, etc.

Among Jews who live with non-Jews, the rates of all these things (now mind you, I am speaking in both cases of religious Jews) tend to be only slightly below average. For Jews who are non-religious, these social indicators are equal to the general population.

When I refer to social pressure, most of the social pressure was and is Torah obligation. And if you were to recommend that the book be "updated", the first question that would be asked would be, "why?"

Remember that the idea of shaving one's face for other than being a eunuch came from the Romans. So, if non-Jews can follow an outdated Roman practice, why can't Jews follow their practice and grow beards?



Why is the Bible (and by extension, God) so sexist? As a followup question, since God is the most perfect being and he is sexist does this make sexism an admirable trait? Are you sexist enough to get into heaven?

Of course, one could argue that the Bible is not sexist at all, but that it merely suggests appropriate behaviour for men and for women. As per the previous notes above, where Jews live amongst themselves, all the social indicators seem to show that living according to Torah rule isn't a bad idea.

It could also be said (and is by liberal Jews) that social existence does indeed change and should, but that the eternal core values of the Torah do not. This argument has less to recommend it in my opinion.

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8541
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1509 on: November 09, 2014, 04:46:54 PM »
Remember that the idea of shaving one's face for other than being a eunuch came from the Romans. So, if non-Jews can follow an outdated Roman practice, why can't Jews follow their practice and grow beards?

Shaving your face in the modern meaning came about by means of the military forcing individuals to shave their face during WWI so that they can wear gas masks. This is also why as those WWI veterans returned, what resembles modern day suits appeared, and as suits are meant to serve a similar purpose as military uniforms (everyone looking nearly the same) then naturally the shaved faces persisted. Before WWI suits didn't look much like our modern day suits at all and shaving your face didn't have entirely much to do with wearing one. Before that, shaving your face was merely a fashion thing, and wasn't really common outside of high classes.


*

Offline Particle Person

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2987
  • born 2 b b&
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1510 on: November 09, 2014, 04:57:11 PM »
I don't understand the connection between shaved faces and modern suits.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8541
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1511 on: November 09, 2014, 05:05:44 PM »
I don't understand the connection between shaved faces and modern suits.

Modern suits are a result of military mimicry during and after WWI. This included a shaved face and short hair. It isn't an absolute rule, but a lot of employers will turn away applicants with long hair, beards, or for not wearing a proper suit to the interview.

*

Offline Snupes

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1957
  • Counting wolves in your paranoiac intervals
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1512 on: November 09, 2014, 05:13:32 PM »
I don't understand the connection between shaved faces and modern suits.

Modern suits are a result of military mimicry during and after WWI. This included a shaved face and short hair. It isn't an absolute rule, but a lot of employers will turn away applicants with long hair, beards, or for not wearing a proper suit to the interview.

Nobody has turned me away for having long hair
There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1513 on: November 09, 2014, 05:30:22 PM »
Shaving the face as a military practice was around LONG before the militaries of WWI were thought of. The Romans were the first. In their battles with the Barbarian Germans, they found that one of the weaknesses of the Germans was that they could be grabbed by the beard and thrown, or pulled, or whatever. The Romans shaved to avoid the facial hair being used in that manner.

Certainly, the gas mask reinforced not growing a beard. But the militaries of Europe and the USA had been shaving their faces for years, or at least keeping the beard quite trim. In the Civil War, it depended on what part of the Army you were in, for example. Some parts of it were required to shave, and some were not.

It is true that many (perhaps most) employers will avoid hiring a person who is not dressed "appropriately" for an interview. "Appropriate", in the minds of many, means a suit and a clean shaven appearance.

There are usually exceptions made for religious garb, although one is still expected, insofar as one is able, to meet standard appearance guidelines. If I were going to look for work today, I would wear a suit and tie, and tuck three of my fringes into my pants, and one of them extended (the front right), in accordance with Ashkenazi Jewish law. And I would wear a Yarmulke that properly matched the appearance of my suit, and it would be of a dressy character. The mustache would be shaved, and the beard would be oiled and combed through properly.

Regarding the fringes, it is customary for Jews to have all four fringes extended. However, among the Ashkenaz, it is permitted to tuck three of them into one's pants, and to leave the front right extended. The Sephardi are required to leave all four extended. Fortunately, I am Ashkenazi.


*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 7639
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1514 on: November 09, 2014, 06:22:47 PM »
Why are Jews so rude?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1515 on: November 09, 2014, 06:23:07 PM »
Funny that only patriarchal societies think it appropriate that women be "purified" after menstruating. It almost is like a prescription made up by men who did not understand menstruating was natural and normal.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1516 on: November 09, 2014, 08:16:17 PM »
Why are Jews so rude?

In general, I have never noticed them to be per se. Some certainly are, but some are not. It really depends on the Jew. Those Jews who spend very little time around non-Jews simply don't know HOW to associate among them. They often appear rude when they are with Gentiles.

Jews who live among non-Jews generally know how to behave, so their conduct is generally perceived as appropriate. It can often be interesting when one stradles both worlds, the Orthodox and the Gentile. Among Jews of all types, from Orthodox to Reform, I can politely refuse to shake hands with women, and most of them comprehend it. Among Gentiles, I generally have to touch hands, at least briefly.

Using that as an example, a Jew who lives only with Jews, if he were to find himself with non-Jews, would not shake hands with a woman at all. The results would be that the non-Jewish woman, not understanding Jewish custom in this regard, would perceive the man to be personally rude, or, if this has happened with more than one Jew, then possibly all Jews as rude.

I find the experience of shaking hands with a woman quite distasteful. But in the interests of diffusing tension between Jew and non-Jew, it is worth it. But among Jews, I certainly do not.


Funny that only patriarchal societies think it appropriate that women be "purified" after menstruating. It almost is like a prescription made up by men who did not understand menstruating was natural and normal.

You will note that among men in extremely Orthodox communities, they must be purified after emission of semen the same way that women must after menstruation. The Torah has a great deal to say about that as well. So, no, Niddah has nothing to do with Patriarchalism.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 08:20:52 PM by Yonah ben Amittai »

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8541
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1517 on: November 09, 2014, 08:26:32 PM »
Nobody has turned me away for having long hair

But what did they have to say about your beard?

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1518 on: November 09, 2014, 08:46:58 PM »
Not that ejaculating and menstruation are at all comparable, but sure, this makes Judaism sound very egalitarian.

*

Offline Snupes

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1957
  • Counting wolves in your paranoiac intervals
    • View Profile
Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1519 on: November 09, 2014, 10:55:28 PM »
Nobody has turned me away for having long hair

But what did they have to say about your beard?

Well, seeing as I only apply to carnival "freak" side-shows they love it.
There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.