[Tumeni]

The moon is pointing AWAY from the earth in this illustration. The center point is out into space. It needs to be pointing TOWARDS the earth, since the sun is on the day side.

Covered this already.

Sun/Earth/Moon at three points of a triangle. Earth is at the point opposite the side connecting Sun and Moon. Sunlight passes along this line to illuminate the Moon. The centre point of Moon's lit side is aligned with this line.

You, the observer, are up to 240k miles to the side of this line. The Sun shines past the Earth. 

[Opeo]

I drew out the phenomenon on a skychart to show how anything pointing "away" from the horizon doesn't really make sense.

Perhaps horizon isn't the best word to use. The moon is pointing AWAY from the earth in this illustration. The center point is out into space. It needs to be pointing TOWARDS the earth, since the sun is on the day side.

I'd argue anytime the moon is in a gibbous phase the lighted part is pointed towards the Earth. We can see the center of the lit side (where it's high noon on the moon) so it's certainly pointed closer to us than away from us. Regardless though, no matter what the naked eye tells you, the string trick *always* works, proving it's the sun lighting up the moon. Even when the sun is below the horizion, the moon points to it, and you can verify this by using a free stargazing app on your smart phone to see where the RE model predicts the sun should be.

[Tom Bishop]

The moon is pointing AWAY from the earth in this illustration. The center point is out into space. It needs to be pointing TOWARDS the earth, since the sun is on the day side.

Covered this already.

Sun/Earth/Moon at three points of a triangle. Earth is at the point opposite the side connecting Sun and Moon. Sunlight passes along this line to illuminate the Moon. The centre point of Moon's lit side is aligned with this line.

You, the observer, are up to 240k miles to the side of this line. The Sun shines past the Earth.

Illustrate it for us. You keep showing illustrations where the moon is pointing TOWARDS the earth.

Show something where the observer is on the night side and the moon is pointing AWAY from the earth.

[Tom Bishop]

I drew out the phenomenon on a skychart to show how anything pointing "away" from the horizon doesn't really make sense.

Perhaps horizon isn't the best word to use. The moon is pointing AWAY from the earth in this illustration. The center point is out into space. It needs to be pointing TOWARDS the earth, since the sun is on the day side.

I'd argue anytime the moon is in a gibbous phase the lighted part is pointed towards the Earth. We can see the center of the lit side (where it's high noon on the moon) so it's certainly pointed closer to us than away from us. Regardless though, no matter what the naked eye tells you, the string trick *always* works, proving it's the sun lighting up the moon. Even when the sun is below the horizion, the moon points to it, and you can verify this by using a free stargazing app on your smart phone to see where the RE model predicts the sun should be.

Even if the sun does line up with the moon, the scenario is still geometrically unsound. The moon needs to be pointing TOWARDS the earth in the RET model, not away from it.

If the observer is in night, the direction of the sun is down towards the earth on the day side.

The moon should NOT be seen pointing away from the earth.

[Tumeni]

Illustrate it for us. You keep showing illustrations where the moon is pointing TOWARDS the earth.

My illustrations show the sightline between Earth and Moon.

You do see the shading, white/grey to show lit and unlit sides of each, don't you?

Show something where the observer is on the night side and the moon is pointing AWAY from the earth.

I think I have. I've shown London on the night side, and the lit side of the Moon linked to the Sun PAST the side of the Earth, i.e. AWAY from the Earth.  It's in the YT video linked to above.

You still haven't explained what you regard as your "pointer".

[Tom Bishop]

Illustrate it for us. You keep showing illustrations where the moon is pointing TOWARDS the earth.

My illustrations show the sightline between Earth and Moon.

You do see the shading, white/grey to show lit and unlit sides of each, don't you?

Show something where the observer is on the night side and the moon is pointing AWAY from the earth.

I think I have. I've shown London on the night side, and the lit side of the Moon linked to the Sun PAST the side of the Earth, i.e. AWAY from the Earth.  It's in the YT video linked to above.

You still haven't explained what you regard as your "pointer".

If you draw in the line of the horizon into your illustration, like I did on page 1, you will find that the moon would be seen pointing towards the earth.

The pointer is the brightest area of the moon's phase - the apex of the crescent. The moon's crescent is  supposed to point towards the sun.

[Westprog]

Illustrate it for us. You keep showing illustrations where the moon is pointing TOWARDS the earth.

Show something where the observer is on the night side and the moon is pointing AWAY from the earth.
[/quote]

And you can illustrate how this works with the flat Earth model?

[garygreen]

The moon's crescent is  supposed to point towards the sun.

it always does.

you can prove this to yourself with a piece of string.  you claim to embrace empiricism and reject rationalism; if that's true, then why are you so reluctant to perform a simple experiment?

[xenotolerance]

yeah these diagrams all have the center of the lit face of the moon pointing at the sun, I really don't get what Tom's objection is

Show something where the observer is on the night side and the moon is pointing AWAY from the earth.

[Tumeni]

Even if the sun does line up with the moon, the scenario is still geometrically unsound. The moon needs to be pointing TOWARDS the earth in the RET model, not away from it.

Says who or what? Which particular aspect of the RET model are you referring to here?


If the observer is in night, the direction of the sun is down towards the earth on the day side.

If the observer is in day, the direction of the sun is exactly the same, surely? The direction to and from the sun doesn't change because one or more folk have moved around on Earth


The moon should NOT be seen pointing away from the earth.

Yes, it should. It should be pointing at the source of light, which can be 'seen' by the Moon on a line going PAST the Earth to the Sun

[Tumeni]

If you draw in the line of the horizon into your illustration, like I did on page 1, you will find that the moon would be seen pointing towards the earth.

Drawing a blue line on my diagram doesn't change the orientation of the Moon in the diagram. The Moon is still 'pointing' toward the Sun, regardless of whether you draw a blue line across it or not.

The pointer is the brightest area of the moon's phase - the apex of the crescent. The moon's crescent is  supposed to point towards the sun.

And it does, in all my diagrams

[Westprog]

Here is a very crude and unimpressive diagram of how this works for the flat Earth model. The Sun illuminates the part of the world that is in daylight, and also illuminates the Moon so it can be seen by people in the part of the world in darkness. There is some other optical phenomenon
 (SOOP) that makes the Sun invisible to the person who can see the Moon.

How can anyone doubt the flat Earth model once they see how it totally explains everything?

(BTW - I'm very, very happy for any flat Earth proponent to come up with a better diagram that explains this any better. It is very crude work.

[Skeptic]

Show something where the observer is on the night side and the moon is pointing AWAY from the earth.

I think this may be an impossible task, because the moon's rotation is synchornized with Earth's rotation in such a manner that only one side of the moon is visible to us on Earth at any given moment. Which, yes, is REALLY weird. The odds of the moon's rotation being THAT precisely synchronized with Earth's rotation are ASTRONOMICAL. I personally think, as crazy as it may sound, that this is because the moon was engineered. Some more supporting evidence for that theory can be found by observing the craters on the moon; they all seem to be roughly the same depth. Which again, is pretty weird....unless of course the moon is some kind of a structure with a dense material just under the surface. I haven't had the chance to read it yet, but someone else had the same theory and wrote a book about it entitled "Who Built the Moon?" by Christopher Knight and Alan Butler. No; I don't think humans built the moon; that's ridiculous seeing as the moon has been around since at least Biblical times, (if I recall correctly, there was a piece of scripture that started something like "before the time of the moon...") I'm pretty sure the moon was engineered, and then brought here by extraterrestrial entities. ....Yep...I know how crazy that sounds, but it would explain a lot, including why we never see the dark side of the moon...possibly because there may be technological bases stationed on the far side of the moon. But yeah...I could go on and on about the moon and all the weird things about it; the subject greatly fascinates me.

[Westprog]

Show something where the observer is on the night side and the moon is pointing AWAY from the earth.

I think this may be an impossible task, because the moon's rotation is synchornized with Earth's rotation in such a manner that only one side of the moon is visible to us on Earth at any given moment. Which, yes, is REALLY weird. The odds of the moon's rotation being THAT precisely synchronized with Earth's rotation are ASTRONOMICAL. I personally think, as crazy as it may sound, that this is because the moon was engineered. Some more supporting evidence for that theory can be found by observing the craters on the moon; they all seem to be roughly the same depth. Which again, is pretty weird....unless of course the moon is some kind of a structure with a dense material just under the surface. I haven't had the chance to read it yet, but someone else had the same theory and wrote a book about it entitled "Who Built the Moon?" by Christopher Knight and Alan Butler. No; I don't think humans built the moon; that's ridiculous seeing as the moon has been around since at least Biblical times, (if I recall correctly, there was a piece of scripture that started something like "before the time of the moon...") I'm pretty sure the moon was engineered, and then brought here by extraterrestrial entities. ....Yep...I know how crazy that sounds, but it would explain a lot, including why we never see the dark side of the moon...possibly because there may be technological bases stationed on the far side of the moon. But yeah...I could go on and on about the moon and all the weird things about it; the subject greatly fascinates me.

If it were a coincidence, then it would certainly be weird. However, it isn't. The reason the rotation of the Moon has ceased relative to the Earth is gravity. It's exactly the same effect that causes tides on Earth. The Earth is much more massive than the Moon, and hence has more effect on it than it does on us.

It's yet more evidence for the reality of gravity.

[Ratboy]

I looked at the moon again last night.  It was high in the sky and was being lit by something below me just a little north of straight west.  In the flat earth model, the sun should have been almost directly north of me.
The night before the moon was lit by something almost straight down from my perspective.  How is that possible in Flat Earth?
I am annoyed now at this site because the obvious stuff is ignored by the FE'ers and they focus on some little thing that requires a lot of explanation. In this thread we are focused on what happens shortly after sunset in England on a summer day.  We hear that it is necessary for the moon to look like it is being lit by something on the horizon, when the horizon is simply the land within our field of vision on a round earth with mountains and whatnot.  The moon is lit by the sun which has nothing to do with where ever the horizon is.  On a flat earth, we might be able to come up with a necessary condition involving the earth's influence over the heavenly bodies that circle it. When we see vapour trails in the sky left by airplanes, you should think that they should always be horizontal with the ground since the plane is flying at a constant altitude.  But the vapour trails in the sky go all over the place in all directions.  If you have never flown, you might, (like some FE's here) argue that how do you know the airplane is not flying almost straight up?  They don't even if from my perspective it might look like it is.
Looking at the moon is one of the easiest proofs of a round earth.  If a person stays in England and does not consider other people on the globe, you can imagine a flat earth model that might work for you. When the moon is full, the same face is always looking at you.  It comes up when the sun goes down.  It is being lit as if you are shining a flashlight directly at it.  That is the light source is directly in line with you and the moon.  And this works on the same day for everyone everywhere.  Although everyone sees the moon at different times according to their time zone, they can publish a calendar years in advance saying what day that full moon is going to be.  If all the people at the same latitude as you can see the full moon between sun set and sun rise for their timezone and it looks the same for everyone on their turn and you can see it in the west at 4:00 am when someone else is seeing it in the east at 8:00 pm and you can both see the man in the moon looking directly at you, what other model than a sphere can give you that?
And that is what being a Zetetic is all about!

[Tumeni]

If you draw in the line of the horizon into your illustration, like I did on page 1, you will find that the moon would be seen pointing towards the earth.

The pointer is the brightest area of the moon's phase - the apex of the crescent. The moon's crescent is  supposed to point towards the sun.

The apex IS pointing to the Sun. It intersects the horizon line you've drawn, but that doesn't mean it's pointing toward the observer's horizon, for you haven't drawn that. You've drawn a side view of the plane of the observer's horizon.

See my annotated version below;

[Westprog]

If you draw in the line of the horizon into your illustration, like I did on page 1, you will find that the moon would be seen pointing towards the earth.

The pointer is the brightest area of the moon's phase - the apex of the crescent. The moon's crescent is  supposed to point towards the sun.

The apex IS pointing to the Sun. It intersects the horizon line you've drawn, but that doesn't mean it's pointing toward the observer's horizon, for you haven't drawn that. You've drawn a side view of the plane of the observer's horizon.

See my annotated version below;

The view from above the Sun/Moon/Earth plane is certainly the best way to see what's going on.

[SpaceCadet]

I went through all 4 pages of this debate and I realised that

1. Tom Bishop has asked for diagrams from REs to explain their position. He has been given a plethora of those

2. REs have asked Tom Bishop for illustrations so as to understand what he is going on about in order to give him a reply. Tom Bishop has given none, has made no indication he will give any or that for some technical reason related to the site or his ability to create diagrams, he cannot.

3. REs have given answers based on their understandings of what Tom Bishop is asking and Tom Bishop has not accepted any of those as they have not answered the question he is asking even though that is because no one seems to understand what Tom is asking as he has failed to illustrate to make that clear.

I believe this is because Tom knows his position is not tenable and needs to make it as vague as posibke in order to keep the illusion that RE cannot explain a point he is apparently making.

Meanwhile, all evidence and means of aquiring said evidence for one's self is immediately discounted by someone who claims to believe only what he can observe himself. So in order not to have his beliefs sheken or threatened he has chosen not to observe at all.

Am I right so far?

My own piece of evidence. Take a tennis ball and hold it up against the sky at the moon visible at twilight and tell me if the effect of the sun on said tennis ball isn't the same as that seen on the moon.

And hell no, I am not going to illustrate that.

[Skeptic]

Show something where the observer is on the night side and the moon is pointing AWAY from the earth.

I think this may be an impossible task, because the moon's rotation is synchornized with Earth's rotation in such a manner that only one side of the moon is visible to us on Earth at any given moment. Which, yes, is REALLY weird. The odds of the moon's rotation being THAT precisely synchronized with Earth's rotation are ASTRONOMICAL. I personally think, as crazy as it may sound, that this is because the moon was engineered. Some more supporting evidence for that theory can be found by observing the craters on the moon; they all seem to be roughly the same depth. Which again, is pretty weird....unless of course the moon is some kind of a structure with a dense material just under the surface. I haven't had the chance to read it yet, but someone else had the same theory and wrote a book about it entitled "Who Built the Moon?" by Christopher Knight and Alan Butler. No; I don't think humans built the moon; that's ridiculous seeing as the moon has been around since at least Biblical times, (if I recall correctly, there was a piece of scripture that started something like "before the time of the moon...") I'm pretty sure the moon was engineered, and then brought here by extraterrestrial entities. ....Yep...I know how crazy that sounds, but it would explain a lot, including why we never see the dark side of the moon...possibly because there may be technological bases stationed on the far side of the moon. But yeah...I could go on and on about the moon and all the weird things about it; the subject greatly fascinates me.

If it were a coincidence, then it would certainly be weird. However, it isn't. The reason the rotation of the Moon has ceased relative to the Earth is gravity. It's exactly the same effect that causes tides on Earth. The Earth is much more massive than the Moon, and hence has more effect on it than it does on us.

It's yet more evidence for the reality of gravity.

Interesting. Unless I'm mistaken though, I don't think the moon's rotation as ceased at all; it's still rotating, just really slowly; if I recall correctly the moon rotates on it's axis about once every 27 days. ....Here's a video of it; not quite sure how to describe it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZIB_leg75Q

Here's another video going into some of the other weird things about the moon (sorry if it's kind of boring):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2IGFbzGCeg

Though to be fair, the "ringing like a gong" phenomenon that was described could be explained by the fact there's no moisture on the moon; it's possible Earth would ring like a bell if it was hit hard enough, provided of course we didn't have vast oceans to serve as a type of shock-absorbing sponge that would dampen down the effects.

Definitely interesting to contemplate though. Really wished I could go there for myself; apparently there's also some pictures of what apear to be structures on the surface of the moon that can't be explained by pure natural formations. Of course, those pictures could have been doctored. Hard telling.

[Westprog]

Unless I'm mistaken though, I don't think the moon's rotation as ceased at all; it's still rotating, just really slowly; if I recall correctly the moon rotates on it's axis about once every 27 days. ....Here's a video of it; not quite sure how to describe it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZIB_leg75Q

The Moon has to rotate to keep the same face Earthside at all times. It can be assumed that it was originally rotating at a different speed, and its face was changing according to its rotation speed. Tidal effects would have slowed it down, until it rotated at exactly the same speed as it's orbit around the Earth. the same forces are working on the Earth, slowing its rotation, but because the Earth is far more massive, it will take vastly longer to lock the Earth to present the same face to the Moon in perpetuity. I'm not sufficiently adept in celestial mechanics to determine if this will ever happen. There must be paired heavenly bodies out there which face each other always. I think this is the case with Pluto and Charon. If you were to live on the far side of Pluto, you'd never see its moon.