*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« on: October 26, 2018, 11:31:27 PM »
That is a nice find. I am curious to see what the entry for the Michelson-Morley Experiment says. The internet is rife with the myth that "the experiment only disproved aether, nothing else" with denialism of any further meaning. It would be interesting to see what pre-internet literature says about this experiment.

I have recently added an article to our Wiki which gives various quotes and pieces of evidence that reflects the true story: https://wiki.tfes.org/Michelson-Morley_Experiment

Edit: A second request -- The Sagnac Experiment and Airy's Failure -- these are related light velocity experiments.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 11:42:09 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Boots

  • *
  • Posts: 795
  • ---- Cogito, ergo sum. ---- -Descartes
    • View Profile
Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2018, 03:39:53 AM »
The Michelson-Morley Experiment says that the speed of light is constant no matter the frame of reference.
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2018, 04:12:08 AM »
The Michelson-Morley Experiment says that the speed of light is constant no matter the frame of reference.

And the Sagnac Experiment, basically the same Experiment on a rotating turntable, says otherwise:

https://cds.cern.ch/record/492804/files/0103091.pdf

Quote
Since its discovery at the beginning of the XX century the Sagnac effect [1] has play an important role in the understanding and development of fundamental physics (for a review see [2]). The Sagnac effect is the dependence of the interference pattern of the rotating interferometer on the direction and speed of rotation. This phenomenon is universal and manifested for any kind of waves, including the matter waves and has found a variety of applications for the practical purposes and in the fundamental physics [2].

...In the context of the Sagnac effects the null result of the Michelson-Morley experiment is also not clear. Applying the same logic to Sun centered rotating frame in which Earth is fixed, one would expect different light speeds as seen from Earth.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 04:13:41 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Online juner

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 10175
    • View Profile
Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2018, 04:19:21 AM »
>mfw sandokhan was right

Rama Set

Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2018, 01:32:53 PM »
It’s always a good day when Tom cherry picks quotes.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2018, 09:55:48 PM »
It’s always a good day when Tom cherry picks quotes.

Yes, you got me. The truth is that those college professors, scientists, researchers, and Albert Einstein himself followed up those quotes in the article with "just kidding".

Rama Set

Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2018, 04:36:59 AM »
It’s always a good day when Tom cherry picks quotes.

Yes, you got me. The truth is that those college professors, scientists, researchers, and Albert Einstein himself followed up those quotes in the article with "just kidding".

>quotes one paper at random
>believes it represents the ultimate “gotcha” moment
>sees Einstein quotes everywhere

Side note Tom, did you know the sagnac effect actually shows the Earth rotating at exactly the rate claimed?

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2018, 07:14:58 AM »
It’s always a good day when Tom cherry picks quotes.

Yes, you got me. The truth is that those college professors, scientists, researchers, and Albert Einstein himself followed up those quotes in the article with "just kidding".

>quotes one paper at random
>believes it represents the ultimate “gotcha” moment
>sees Einstein quotes everywhere

Side note Tom, did you know the sagnac effect actually shows the Earth rotating at exactly the rate claimed?

There are dozens of quotes I provided in the links I posted.

These light velocity experiments did not see the earth move. Einstein says that experiments using light cannot detect the motion of the earth.

Have a read: https://wiki.tfes.org/Michelson-Morley_Experiment

Rama Set

Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2018, 01:15:48 PM »
You need to stop with the mentality that if Einstein didn’t say it, it can’t be true. It’s anti-rational, anti-empirical and anti-zetetic.

If you have a gyroscopic interferometer, you will see interference that, based on the Sagnac effect, matches the rate of rotation of the Earth. True story.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2018, 03:33:15 PM »
You need to stop with the mentality that if Einstein didn’t say it, it can’t be true. It’s anti-rational, anti-empirical and anti-zetetic.

If you have a gyroscopic interferometer, you will see interference that, based on the Sagnac effect, matches the rate of rotation of the Earth. True story.

Um..

https://wiki.tfes.org/Michelson-Morley_Experiment

Quote
Influence of the MiMo Experiment on Relativity

In a lecture titled How I Created the Theory of Relativity Albert Einstein points this experiment out as a basis on developing Special Relativity:

  “ I was familiar with the strange results of Michelson’s experiment while I was still a student pondering these problems, and instinctively realized that, if we accepted his result as a fact, it would be wrong to think of the motion of the Earth with respect to the ether. This insight actually provided the first route that led me to what we now call the principle of special relativity. I have since come to believe that, although the Earth revolves around the Sun, its motion cannot be ascertained through experiments using light. ”

Many experiments with light have been performed to try and find the rotation or movement of the earth. It was not found.

The Sagnac Experiment is nothing more than the Michelson Morley Experiment that rotates during the experiment on a rotating turntable.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 03:55:52 PM by Tom Bishop »

Rama Set

Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2018, 03:59:02 PM »
That might be true if you assume time ends at an arbitrary point. Fortunately for us, it doesn’t, and as I pointed out, the Sagnac Effect can measure the rotation of the Earth.  Look for measurements made with Large Area Sagnac Interferometers.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2018, 05:09:11 PM »
Whatever crazy research paper you are referring to that claimed to detect motion of the earth is not cannon to the very much repeated and highly funded tests that did not detect it, and form the basis of relativity.

“The failure to detect any influence of the earth’s motion on the velocity of light really formed the starting point of Einstein’s theory of relativity” – Encyclopedia Britannica

Lets see what this version of Britannica in the OP says.

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8569
    • View Profile
Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2018, 05:16:58 PM »
I'm splitting this thread starting at Tom's first post into FET because Tom has completely turned this thread into a discussion about FET physics...

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2018, 07:18:58 PM »
The failure of light experiments to detect the Earth's motion is all physics. And I have simply been curious about what the 1961 version of Britannica says on the matter.

This is now a more appropriate forum if people really want to debate and deny the matter. The fact that this topic creates instant denialism of "that's not true!" is disturbing.

HorstFue

Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2018, 08:07:57 PM »
“The failure to detect any influence of the earth’s motion on the velocity of light really formed the starting point of Einstein’s theory of relativity” – Encyclopedia Britannica
is quite different to:
These light velocity experiments did not see the earth move. Einstein says that experiments using light cannot detect the motion of the earth.
In my opinion Einstein says, the velocity of light is constant and therefore no experiment can verify the motion of earth by trying to detect a variation in the speed of light.

Your cited paper: https://cds.cern.ch/record/492804/files/0103091.pdf
Quote
For the laboratory observer the Sagnac effct seems to have simple explanation - because of the rotation the round-trip distance traveled by the waves co-rotating with the platform is grater than for the anti-rotating waves.
Some misunderstandings appear when considering the optical Sagnac effect from the viewpoint of an
observer on the rotating disk...
I see no variable light speed there for the laboratory observer. Only the distance the two light beams have to travel is different.
What the paper evaluates is the view of an observer on the rotating disk.

Wikipedia: Michelson–Gale–Pearson experiment
The Michelson–Gale–Pearson experiment (1925) is a modified version of the Michelson–Morley experiment and the Sagnac-Interferometer.
The outcome of the experiment was that the angular velocity of the Earth as measured by astronomy was confirmed to within measuring accuracy.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2018, 08:51:11 PM »
No, it was not "confirmed within measuring accuracy". For the Michelson and Gale experiment, which some assert to see motion of the earth, read this chapter from Galileo Was Wrong, starting from page 636.

https://archive.org/details/GalileoWasWrongTheChurchSungenisRobertA.Bennett4275.o/page/n636

Here is an excerpt:

Quote
The tests were made on thirteen different days with a total of 269 observations, almost always with the same results. The lowest value for the displacement in the fringes was 0.193 while the highest was 0.255 with the mean displacement coming in at 0.230. Thus, right before Michelson’s own eyes, the 1913 Sagnac results were confirmed and his 1887 interpretation was put in question, as was Relativity. Here was further proof, to the order of ten times the power of the Sagnac experiment, that there is, indeed, an absolute space in which absolute rotation occurs. Something was affecting the light in order for it to consistently produce the fringe displacement. Sagnac (1913) and Michelson (1925) demonstrated it was ether, which was quite an irony for the latter. Although Michelson would sum up the experiment with the sardonic comment: “All we can deduce from this experiment is that the earth rotates on its axis,” in reality, the experiment did not distinguish between an Earth rotating against the ether as opposed to the ether circling around a fixed-Earth. In other words, it provided no proof that the Earth rotates, but opened the door very wide to suggest that Copernicus was wrong, since no translational motion corresponding to 30 km/sec was found by Michelson and Gale.

Analyzing the results of the Sagnac and Michelson-Gale experiments, Hayden and Whitney, in the revealing title: “If Sagnac, Why Not Michelson-Morley?” write:

"The logical existence of the incremental Sagnac effect implies... that there is some compelling physical reason why the effect cannot be observed at the surface of the Earth.... We hold that until something new is brought to the table, this question simply cannot be resolved. No currently accepted theory reveals why, like a Cheshire cat, the Sagnac effect shows itself in one kind of experiment but not in another."

The chapter goes on at length to describe how only a very small shift was found.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 09:52:30 PM by Tom Bishop »

HorstFue

Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2018, 09:28:16 PM »
No, it was not "confirmed within measuring accuracy". For the Michelson and Gale experiment, which some assert to see motion of the earth, read this chapter from Galileo Was Wrong, starting from page 636.
https://archive.org/details/GalileoWasWrongTheChurchSungenisRobertA.Bennett4275.o/page/n636
Sorry, this source is tainted!
Sugenis Robert
Some Background on the New Geocentrists

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10637
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2018, 09:47:35 PM »
No, it was not "confirmed within measuring accuracy". For the Michelson and Gale experiment, which some assert to see motion of the earth, read this chapter from Galileo Was Wrong, starting from page 636.
https://archive.org/details/GalileoWasWrongTheChurchSungenisRobertA.Bennett4275.o/page/n636
Sorry, this source is tainted!
Sugenis Robert
Some Background on the New Geocentrists

His work is discarded because he "made statements about Jews and Judaism which have been criticized as being antisemitic, which he denies"?  ???

The book was coauthored by Robert Bennet:

https://wiki.naturalphilosophy.org/index.php?title=Robert_J_Bennett

Quote
Robert J. Bennett holds a doctorate in physics from Stevens Tech with a thesis on rigid body motion in General Relativity. He served as a physics instructor at Manhattan College and Bergen Community College from 1967-1983, and consulted on software architecture with Bell Labs and Chase Bank.

Your "complaint" looks like denial of evidence to me. Why don't you address it?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 01:50:34 AM by Tom Bishop »

Rama Set

Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2018, 11:12:10 PM »
Whatever crazy research paper you are referring to that claimed to detect motion of the earth is not cannon to the very much repeated and highly funded tests that did not detect it, and form the basis of relativity.

Tom, Einstein’s relativity was formulated in the early 20th century. We have made advances since then.

Quote
“The failure to detect any influence of the earth’s motion on the velocity of light really formed the starting point of Einstein’s theory of relativity” – Encyclopedia Britannica

Lets see what this version of Britannica in the OP says.

General relativity went on to show that a rotating reference frame does affect the speed of light, which is why the Earth’s rotation can be detected with a large area Sagnac interferometer but the Earth’s translation around the sun cannot.

Re: 1961 Full Edition of Encyclopedia Britanica
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2018, 02:24:03 AM »
>mfw sandokhan was right

Did you see his prediction about the chamber in the great pyramid?
Blew my mind.