Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2021, 03:53:43 PM »
You got nothing here, even failing to acknowledge lat/long as an x-y coordinate system, which it plainly is.

Latitude and longitude are measured in degrees. Degrees are a unit of measurement for angles. An angle is the displacement between two straight vectors or lines.

If you measure displacements between two places in degrees, on any kind of FE system or model, where do you draw the angle?
Any x-y coordinate system could just as well be measured in degrees.

Seems superfluous to the issue.

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2021, 04:16:49 PM »
I find it absolutely shocking and incredible a machine could and would be invented that would simulate exterior motion having a deleterious effect on its own operation. [/sarcasm]

Why would manufacturers go to the effort of installing something that made their product unusable? Why has nobody noticed that disabling the mechanism, or setting the latitude to zero, improves things? Could it not just be that these things work as intended, because the earth is a rotating globe? You're not offering anything of substance in response - just sarcasm and empty statements.
You missed my point, that being all kinds of operating systems evolve, with some functions being labeled as being based on "something," not really necessary to the function or continued successful operation or even actually based on to the reason given.

For instance, I use a computer everyday with Windows as the operating system. Maybe we should check with them as to whether everything in place for their operating system is necessary or helpful.

I think we both know the answer to that question is a firm "NO."
Why would I possibly agree to an untrue statement that Sigma Octantis could possibly be visible in those three places at the same time.

It is not dark in those three places at the same time.

Your own source proves that to be a fact and you are just plain wrong.

Where and how does the source I gave do that? And when will you start providing links and evidence to support your empty, meaningless statements?

Here's the forecast for 21 June, as per my earlier comment:



It's dark on all three continents - the east coast of South America, the West coast of Australia, and all of Africa. Dark.
Repeating your false claims concerning Sigma Octantis is doing nothing to further debate.

The basic facts are Sigma Octantis is barely visible to the naked eye, and it is not dark enough in all three places you offer for it to be visible to three independent observers at the same time.

Navigation is always performed on a short scale, trips being broken down in sections, utilizing waypoints.
How does that even come close to addressing the point I made? Whether you break your straight line into shorter legs or just do one big straight line, it's still a straight line, with different headings to the great circle route.
Yeah, I will now remind you of your entire post to which this reply was intended.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18036.msg238127#msg238127
"But navigation, other than on a very local scale where grids can be used, is done using lat/long, not X/Y."

As if Lat/Long is not an x-y coordinate system, when it clearly is anyway.

And as if breaking up longer trips into easier to plan and manage shorter sections isn't performed on a daily basis.

Really tiresome and worthless objections on your part, especially when you know the facts are in my corner.
Your repeated failure to address any of the points being made with anything other than Monty Python style disagreement just makes it look even more like you don't have a credible argument. Fine by me, but I rather hoped for a better standard of debate.
Those are the facts.

I have not represented anything but factual information in my replies.

Bye.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 05:38:43 PM by Action80 »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2021, 04:35:14 PM »
Any x-y coordinate system could just as well be measured in degrees.

... but where would you place the angle? The point where the two vertices or lines meet?

EDIT to add image



Conventional RE geometry holds that the meeting point is at the centre of the Earth. The green dots indicate the latitude of London above the equator, the red is the latitude of Edinburgh above London, and the sum of the two is the latitude of Edinburgh above the equator.

Can you draw an indication of where you see the angle forming in FE geometry?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 04:46:03 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2021, 05:10:14 PM »
Any x-y coordinate system could just as well be measured in degrees.

... but where would you place the angle? The point where the two vertices or lines meet?

EDIT to add image



Conventional RE geometry holds that the meeting point is at the centre of the Earth. The green dots indicate the latitude of London above the equator, the red is the latitude of Edinburgh above London, and the sum of the two is the latitude of Edinburgh above the equator.

Can you draw an indication of where you see the angle forming in FE geometry?

How does an imaginary line drawn to an imaginary center of the earth impact my successful to or fro trip from London to Edinburgh?

Why would it be necessary for anyone to ever consider doing doing this?

But this probably does go further to explain where the angles actually do exist when transcribing heavenly bodies onto the surface of the flat earth, such as the complexes at Giza, Tenochtitlan, Angor Wat, etc.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 05:29:15 PM by Action80 »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2021, 06:03:28 PM »
Why would it be necessary for anyone to ever consider doing doing this?

Because those who did it found a remarkable consistency between measured and observed results.

Again, you seem to accept an 'x/y' co-ord system, using degrees to indicate lat/long, while not accepting RE; so if degrees are used on an FE model, where would you draw the angle?
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Offline SteelyBob

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2021, 08:36:21 PM »
You missed my point, that being all kinds of operating systems evolve, with some functions being labeled as being based on "something," not really necessary to the function or continued successful operation or even actually based on to the reason given.

For instance, I use a computer everyday with Windows as the operating system. Maybe we should check with them as to whether everything in place for their operating system is necessary or helpful.

I think we both know the answer to that question is a firm "NO."
There is only one possible purpose for a drift nut, though, isn't there? It causes the gyro to precess by up to 15 degrees per hour. There is no possible reason to have that feature if there wasn't a need for it. It's not like some legacy software code that's tangled up with something essential and can't be removed. Moreover, users can easily disable the feature by setting it to 0 latitude - the equator. But nobody does that, because that would be silly. From a personal perspective, I've flown aircraft that actually have the drift correction selectable in the cockpit and, yes, we always made sure we set it right.

Repeating your false claims concerning Sigma Octantis is doing nothing to further debate.

The basic facts are Sigma Octantis is barely visible to the naked eye, and it is not dark enough in all three places you offer for it to be visible to three independent observers at the same time.
You keep saying that, but yet you continually fail to provide any evidence at all. Presumably you don't have any? You even said previously that:

Quote
Your own source proves that to be a fact and you are just plain wrong.
Where does it prove that, and how? I've clearly shown that it is dark in those three places, and you just keep saying it isn't. Pony up some actual evidence, or just admit you're wrong, which anybody reading this can plainly see.

On a related note...would you concede to darkness in two continents at the same time? For that would be equally absurd from a FE perspective. As would ships at see some distance apart longitudinally. It's equally absurd from one continent, to be honest - just drive 100 miles or so east or west and you are already supposedly looking in a slightly different direction whilst looking at the same star. But hey ho, you can keep on saying 'it isn't true' if you like.

Those are the facts.

I have not represented anything but factual information in my replies.

Bye.

You haven't represented anything at all. Not a single link. No references. No evidence. Nothing. Just disagreement.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2021, 11:05:13 PM »
I remember the old DG (directional gyro) I had in my 1946 fabric covered Taylorcraft.  The only thing it had on it (if my memory is correct from 50 years ago) was the drift nut.  I always lined up on the runway and set the DG using the known runway heading and took off.  After flying for a while (VFR) we always had plenty of gravel roads going straight North & South or East & West that I could fly parallel to while resetting the DG. It was usually off 2 or 3 degrees because of the normal drift caused by the rotation of the earth.  In this old aircraft I had no radio navigation equipment at all so it was strictly by visual observation of the landscape and looking at the charts.  If you were smart you did this for quite a while and learned all the tricks before graduating to navigation by radio.  These days anyone could just use the GPS receiver in their iPhone, but not 50 years ago.  We all had to go on a solo cross country flight then land.  It was then up to me to find someone to sign my logbook to verify that I had actually arrived at the agreed upon airport.  This way upon return my flight instructor could have some confidence that my navigation skills were coming along.  On one of my first solo trips I did become disoriented and had to fly low over a nearby highway and try to read the road sign to verify where I was.  Of course navigators on the high seas can't do that and have to rely on celestial navigation and/or the GPS system.  The GPS system effectively is based upon the earth being a sphere but all the spherical trig is done by the computer.  If you do this kind of thing long enough you actually gain an appreciation for how hard it must have been for the original explorers to navigate across the earth and why it was so important for them to construct accurate maps that could be relied upon to get from point A to point B.  Since the flat earth theory believers never have produced any detailed and accurate paper charts who can blame those who use and believe in the ones using the spherical earth paradigm?   
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 11:08:07 PM by RonJ »
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Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2021, 10:36:06 AM »
Why would it be necessary for anyone to ever consider doing doing this?

Because those who did it found a remarkable consistency between measured and observed results.

Again, you seem to accept an 'x/y' co-ord system, using degrees to indicate lat/long, while not accepting RE; so if degrees are used on an FE model, where would you draw the angle?
The fact that two lines originating from two points in the sky would first intersect at some point below the observer shows nothing.

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2021, 10:42:52 AM »
You missed my point, that being all kinds of operating systems evolve, with some functions being labeled as being based on "something," not really necessary to the function or continued successful operation or even actually based on to the reason given.

For instance, I use a computer everyday with Windows as the operating system. Maybe we should check with them as to whether everything in place for their operating system is necessary or helpful.

I think we both know the answer to that question is a firm "NO."
There is only one possible purpose for a drift nut, though, isn't there? It causes the gyro to precess by up to 15 degrees per hour. There is no possible reason to have that feature if there wasn't a need for it. It's not like some legacy software code that's tangled up with something essential and can't be removed. Moreover, users can easily disable the feature by setting it to 0 latitude - the equator. But nobody does that, because that would be silly. From a personal perspective, I've flown aircraft that actually have the drift correction selectable in the cockpit and, yes, we always made sure we set it right.
Gyroscopes do not need a drift to function.
Repeating your false claims concerning Sigma Octantis is doing nothing to further debate.

The basic facts are Sigma Octantis is barely visible to the naked eye, and it is not dark enough in all three places you offer for it to be visible to three independent observers at the same time.
You keep saying that, but yet you continually fail to provide any evidence at all. Presumably you don't have any? You even said previously that:

Quote
Your own source proves that to be a fact and you are just plain wrong.
Where does it prove that, and how? I've clearly shown that it is dark in those three places, and you just keep saying it isn't. Pony up some actual evidence, or just admit you're wrong, which anybody reading this can plainly see.
For the final time, it is not dark enough in the three locations for Sigma Octantis to be visible to three independent observers in those three locations.

Your own sources prove this to be true.
On a related note...would you concede to darkness in two continents at the same time? For that would be equally absurd from a FE perspective. As would ships at see some distance apart longitudinally. It's equally absurd from one continent, to be honest - just drive 100 miles or so east or west and you are already supposedly looking in a slightly different direction whilst looking at the same star. But hey ho, you can keep on saying 'it isn't true' if you like.
100 miles either way would be possible, of course. Demonstrates nothing.

Even two continents would be a stretch, as demonstrated by your own source.
Those are the facts.

I have not represented anything but factual information in my replies.

Bye.

You haven't represented anything at all. Not a single link. No references. No evidence. Nothing. Just disagreement.
Using your own sources to demonstrate the falsity of your argument is more than a disagreement.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2021, 10:50:15 AM »
The fact that two lines originating from two points in the sky would first intersect at some point below the observer shows nothing.

If you agree that an angle in degrees is formed by two vectors or lines, and that two places are separated by a number of degrees of latitude or longitude, where is the point at which they intersect?

Can you show a diagram of how you see it working?
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Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2021, 12:12:29 PM »
The fact that two lines originating from two points in the sky would first intersect at some point below the observer shows nothing.

If you agree that an angle in degrees is formed by two vectors or lines, and that two places are separated by a number of degrees of latitude or longitude, where is the point at which they intersect?

Can you show a diagram of how you see it working?
Again, what difference does it make?

The math will show they meet at some point bellow the observer.

It is indicative of nothing.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2021, 02:35:22 PM »
You missed my point, that being all kinds of operating systems evolve, with some functions being labeled as being based on "something," not really necessary to the function or continued successful operation or even actually based on to the reason given.

For instance, I use a computer everyday with Windows as the operating system. Maybe we should check with them as to whether everything in place for their operating system is necessary or helpful.

I think we both know the answer to that question is a firm "NO."
There is only one possible purpose for a drift nut, though, isn't there? It causes the gyro to precess by up to 15 degrees per hour. There is no possible reason to have that feature if there wasn't a need for it. It's not like some legacy software code that's tangled up with something essential and can't be removed. Moreover, users can easily disable the feature by setting it to 0 latitude - the equator. But nobody does that, because that would be silly. From a personal perspective, I've flown aircraft that actually have the drift correction selectable in the cockpit and, yes, we always made sure we set it right.
Gyroscopes do not need a drift to function.


Here is where the attempt at a diversion takes place.  A gyro does NOT need a drift nut to function.  The gyro part will indeed spin and provide a nice steady indication of an azimuth without the drift nut, but that azimuth indication probably won't be accurate. A spun up and stabilized gyro has to be set to a useful reference azimuth so it's accurate and provides useful information to the pilot. That's why you always use the DRIFT NUT to set the directional gyro to your runway heading (that's always accurately known) just before your start your takeoff roll.  Then if the control tower says something like 'fly heading 235 and climb and maintain 5000' you can easily use your directional gyro to comply with the control tower's instructions.  If you didn't you would have to note what the gyro indicated after it spun up, then do some quick mental math, and turn to the heading as instructed. 


The bottom line is, the gyro will work without a drift nut just fine but you will need to use that drift nut many times during your flight to save yourself from having to calculate an error differential that will continuously take place during the flight.  It's a known and verified fact that if you fly a straight heading, say directly along geographic North line, for a length of time, your directional gyro will continuously drift off the 360 (or 0) degree indicated heading as the earth rotates.  The gyro is working fine and is following the laws of physics but the drift nut is for the convenience of the pilot. As for my source if information:  FAA issued commercial pilot's license and experience as pilot in command over a period of about 30 years. 

You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2021, 03:29:28 PM »
You missed my point, that being all kinds of operating systems evolve, with some functions being labeled as being based on "something," not really necessary to the function or continued successful operation or even actually based on to the reason given.

For instance, I use a computer everyday with Windows as the operating system. Maybe we should check with them as to whether everything in place for their operating system is necessary or helpful.

I think we both know the answer to that question is a firm "NO."
There is only one possible purpose for a drift nut, though, isn't there? It causes the gyro to precess by up to 15 degrees per hour. There is no possible reason to have that feature if there wasn't a need for it. It's not like some legacy software code that's tangled up with something essential and can't be removed. Moreover, users can easily disable the feature by setting it to 0 latitude - the equator. But nobody does that, because that would be silly. From a personal perspective, I've flown aircraft that actually have the drift correction selectable in the cockpit and, yes, we always made sure we set it right.
Gyroscopes do not need a drift to function.


Here is where the attempt at a diversion takes place.  A gyro does NOT need a drift nut to function.  The gyro part will indeed spin and provide a nice steady indication of an azimuth without the drift nut, but that azimuth indication probably won't be accurate. A spun up and stabilized gyro has to be set to a useful reference azimuth so it's accurate and provides useful information to the pilot. That's why you always use the DRIFT NUT to set the directional gyro to your runway heading (that's always accurately known) just before your start your takeoff roll.  Then if the control tower says something like 'fly heading 235 and climb and maintain 5000' you can easily use your directional gyro to comply with the control tower's instructions.  If you didn't you would have to note what the gyro indicated after it spun up, then do some quick mental math, and turn to the heading as instructed.
Seems to me you are admitting they don't need drift nuts to function and neither does the pilot need a gyro with a drift nut to fly the plane to the destination.

The bottom line is, the gyro will work without a drift nut just fine but you will need to use that drift nut many times during your flight to save yourself from having to calculate an error differential that will continuously take place during the flight.  It's a known and verified fact that if you fly a straight heading, say directly along geographic North line, for a length of time, your directional gyro will continuously drift off the 360 (or 0) degree indicated heading as the earth rotates.  The gyro is working fine and is following the laws of physics but the drift nut is for the convenience of the pilot. As for my source if information:  FAA issued commercial pilot's license and experience as pilot in command over a period of about 30 years.
Yes, you confirmed everything.

You do not need a gyro with a drift nut to fly.

Basically, it appears a drift nut is merely something of an automated process that provides additional information that was already available to all pilots and capable of being performed regardless.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2021, 04:14:14 PM »
You missed my point, that being all kinds of operating systems evolve, with some functions being labeled as being based on "something," not really necessary to the function or continued successful operation or even actually based on to the reason given.

For instance, I use a computer everyday with Windows as the operating system. Maybe we should check with them as to whether everything in place for their operating system is necessary or helpful.

I think we both know the answer to that question is a firm "NO."
There is only one possible purpose for a drift nut, though, isn't there? It causes the gyro to precess by up to 15 degrees per hour. There is no possible reason to have that feature if there wasn't a need for it. It's not like some legacy software code that's tangled up with something essential and can't be removed. Moreover, users can easily disable the feature by setting it to 0 latitude - the equator. But nobody does that, because that would be silly. From a personal perspective, I've flown aircraft that actually have the drift correction selectable in the cockpit and, yes, we always made sure we set it right.
Gyroscopes do not need a drift to function.


Here is where the attempt at a diversion takes place.  A gyro does NOT need a drift nut to function.  The gyro part will indeed spin and provide a nice steady indication of an azimuth without the drift nut, but that azimuth indication probably won't be accurate. A spun up and stabilized gyro has to be set to a useful reference azimuth so it's accurate and provides useful information to the pilot. That's why you always use the DRIFT NUT to set the directional gyro to your runway heading (that's always accurately known) just before your start your takeoff roll.  Then if the control tower says something like 'fly heading 235 and climb and maintain 5000' you can easily use your directional gyro to comply with the control tower's instructions.  If you didn't you would have to note what the gyro indicated after it spun up, then do some quick mental math, and turn to the heading as instructed.
Seems to me you are admitting they don't need drift nuts to function and neither does the pilot need a gyro with a drift nut to fly the plane to the destination.

The bottom line is, the gyro will work without a drift nut just fine but you will need to use that drift nut many times during your flight to save yourself from having to calculate an error differential that will continuously take place during the flight.  It's a known and verified fact that if you fly a straight heading, say directly along geographic North line, for a length of time, your directional gyro will continuously drift off the 360 (or 0) degree indicated heading as the earth rotates.  The gyro is working fine and is following the laws of physics but the drift nut is for the convenience of the pilot. As for my source if information:  FAA issued commercial pilot's license and experience as pilot in command over a period of about 30 years.
Yes, you confirmed everything.

You do not need a gyro with a drift nut to fly.

Basically, it appears a drift nut is merely something of an automated process that provides additional information that was already available to all pilots and capable of being performed regardless.
You are correct in certain aspects but you are still trying to hide the most important reason of why a drift nut is needed.  Let's start with a practical scenario.  A pilot starts up his aircraft and gets everything warmed up.  The directional gyro stabilizes at a indicated heading of 236 degrees.  Assume the aircraft is sitting on the ramp at a heading of 093 degrees. That means that the gyro indicates 143 degrees more than the actual aircraft true heading but the gyro is working perfectly well and will stay at that heading but will slowly change as the earth rotates under the aircraft.  The pilot next taxies out to runway 14.  That means the actual runway heading is at a geographic heading of about 140 degrees.  So before takeoff with the aircraft aligned with the runway center line the directional gyro will then indicate 283 degrees.  You take off and the control tower gives you instructions to turn left to heading 125 degrees for traffic avoidance.  Now you have to do some quick mental math you could just add 125 + 143 and turn to a gyro indicated heading of 268. 


You probably are starting to get the picture.  The drift nut doesn't change anything about how the gyro actually works but it does save the pilot a lot of mental arithmetic and probably avoids plenty of mistakes that could happen at critical times.  On top of this as the earth spins and takes the atmosphere and the aircraft with it the directional gyro's heading accuracy will slowly become inaccurate.  This means that the pilot will then be required to have a stopwatch as well to keep track of the drift of the azimuth as a function of time.  These days you could probably just have an iPhone app to keep track of everything, but 50 years ago when I was first starting to fly we didn't have all the high tech stuff like that.  Instead a drift nut was installed on the directional gyro.  Again, it didn't actually have any effect on how the gyro works or the gyro's accuracy, but it did make the directional gyro a whole lot more of an effective instrument that the pilot could use for his navigation between point A and point B.       
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2021, 05:39:07 PM »
You missed my point, that being all kinds of operating systems evolve, with some functions being labeled as being based on "something," not really necessary to the function or continued successful operation or even actually based on to the reason given.

For instance, I use a computer everyday with Windows as the operating system. Maybe we should check with them as to whether everything in place for their operating system is necessary or helpful.

I think we both know the answer to that question is a firm "NO."
There is only one possible purpose for a drift nut, though, isn't there? It causes the gyro to precess by up to 15 degrees per hour. There is no possible reason to have that feature if there wasn't a need for it. It's not like some legacy software code that's tangled up with something essential and can't be removed. Moreover, users can easily disable the feature by setting it to 0 latitude - the equator. But nobody does that, because that would be silly. From a personal perspective, I've flown aircraft that actually have the drift correction selectable in the cockpit and, yes, we always made sure we set it right.
Gyroscopes do not need a drift to function.


Here is where the attempt at a diversion takes place.  A gyro does NOT need a drift nut to function.  The gyro part will indeed spin and provide a nice steady indication of an azimuth without the drift nut, but that azimuth indication probably won't be accurate. A spun up and stabilized gyro has to be set to a useful reference azimuth so it's accurate and provides useful information to the pilot. That's why you always use the DRIFT NUT to set the directional gyro to your runway heading (that's always accurately known) just before your start your takeoff roll.  Then if the control tower says something like 'fly heading 235 and climb and maintain 5000' you can easily use your directional gyro to comply with the control tower's instructions.  If you didn't you would have to note what the gyro indicated after it spun up, then do some quick mental math, and turn to the heading as instructed.
Seems to me you are admitting they don't need drift nuts to function and neither does the pilot need a gyro with a drift nut to fly the plane to the destination.

The bottom line is, the gyro will work without a drift nut just fine but you will need to use that drift nut many times during your flight to save yourself from having to calculate an error differential that will continuously take place during the flight.  It's a known and verified fact that if you fly a straight heading, say directly along geographic North line, for a length of time, your directional gyro will continuously drift off the 360 (or 0) degree indicated heading as the earth rotates.  The gyro is working fine and is following the laws of physics but the drift nut is for the convenience of the pilot. As for my source if information:  FAA issued commercial pilot's license and experience as pilot in command over a period of about 30 years.
Yes, you confirmed everything.

You do not need a gyro with a drift nut to fly.

Basically, it appears a drift nut is merely something of an automated process that provides additional information that was already available to all pilots and capable of being performed regardless.
You are correct in certain aspects but you are still trying to hide the most important reason of why a drift nut is needed.  Let's start with a practical scenario.  A pilot starts up his aircraft and gets everything warmed up.  The directional gyro stabilizes at a indicated heading of 236 degrees.  Assume the aircraft is sitting on the ramp at a heading of 093 degrees. That means that the gyro indicates 143 degrees more than the actual aircraft true heading but the gyro is working perfectly well and will stay at that heading but will slowly change as the earth rotates under the aircraft.  The pilot next taxies out to runway 14.  That means the actual runway heading is at a geographic heading of about 140 degrees.  So before takeoff with the aircraft aligned with the runway center line the directional gyro will then indicate 283 degrees.  You take off and the control tower gives you instructions to turn left to heading 125 degrees for traffic avoidance.  Now you have to do some quick mental math you could just add 125 + 143 and turn to a gyro indicated heading of 268. 


You probably are starting to get the picture.  The drift nut doesn't change anything about how the gyro actually works but it does save the pilot a lot of mental arithmetic and probably avoids plenty of mistakes that could happen at critical times.  On top of this as the earth spins and takes the atmosphere and the aircraft with it the directional gyro's heading accuracy will slowly become inaccurate.  This means that the pilot will then be required to have a stopwatch as well to keep track of the drift of the azimuth as a function of time.  These days you could probably just have an iPhone app to keep track of everything, but 50 years ago when I was first starting to fly we didn't have all the high tech stuff like that.  Instead a drift nut was installed on the directional gyro.  Again, it didn't actually have any effect on how the gyro works or the gyro's accuracy, but it did make the directional gyro a whole lot more of an effective instrument that the pilot could use for his navigation between point A and point B.       
Why would I try to hide something that is not needed?

Seems you are attempting to ascribe extreme relevance to something that turns out be a matter of simple convenience.

In other words, without Google Maps installed on your phone, getting to grandma's house for Thanksgiving dinner wouldn't be possible.

That's your argument.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2021, 06:12:59 PM »
The math will show they meet at some point bellow the observer.

It is indicative of nothing.

You have to define the point, or else you have no lat/long system. Cannot be a different point every time. Unless you can show us how?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2021, 07:49:58 PM »
Your own source proves that to be a fact and you are just plain wrong.
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Where does it prove that, and how? I've clearly shown that it is dark in those three places, and you just keep saying it isn't. Pony up some actual evidence, or just admit you're wrong, which anybody reading this can plainly see.
For the final time, it is not dark enough in the three locations for Sigma Octantis to be visible to three independent observers in those three locations.

Your own sources prove this to be true.

So you say 'your own source proves x' and I ask 'where does it prove that, and how?'. Your response: 'your own source proves x'. You're just endlessly repeating the same thing, without actually responding to what is being asked. Where, precisely, does the site I linked to show that it isn't dark at the same time on those three continents? An example of what might be acceptable would be a screenshot from 21 June at 2142UTC, which is the time and date I suggested, showing something other than what I described, which is nighttime in Africa, and the extreme east and west coast respectively of South America and Australia. But you've done no such thing, presumably because you either couldn't be bothered to check or you know it to be exactly as I described and are hoping that repeating your false assertion will make it go away.

It won't go away though. If you log in to those webcams I suggested at 2142UTC on 21st June, it will be dark in all three places.

You also seem to be trying to muddy things by referring to Sig Oct's dimness. It certainly is hard to see. But on a clear night, with reasonable eyesight it's very achievable. And of course with a telescope or even binos, it's even easier. Why wouldn't somebody be able to see it from those three locations? You aren't offering anything to prove your point other than 'your own source says...'. That's a meaningless statement without some kind of link or picture etc.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2021, 09:48:04 PM »
You missed my point, that being all kinds of operating systems evolve, with some functions being labeled as being based on "something," not really necessary to the function or continued successful operation or even actually based on to the reason given.

For instance, I use a computer everyday with Windows as the operating system. Maybe we should check with them as to whether everything in place for their operating system is necessary or helpful.

I think we both know the answer to that question is a firm "NO."
There is only one possible purpose for a drift nut, though, isn't there? It causes the gyro to precess by up to 15 degrees per hour. There is no possible reason to have that feature if there wasn't a need for it. It's not like some legacy software code that's tangled up with something essential and can't be removed. Moreover, users can easily disable the feature by setting it to 0 latitude - the equator. But nobody does that, because that would be silly. From a personal perspective, I've flown aircraft that actually have the drift correction selectable in the cockpit and, yes, we always made sure we set it right.
Gyroscopes do not need a drift to function.


Here is where the attempt at a diversion takes place.  A gyro does NOT need a drift nut to function.  The gyro part will indeed spin and provide a nice steady indication of an azimuth without the drift nut, but that azimuth indication probably won't be accurate. A spun up and stabilized gyro has to be set to a useful reference azimuth so it's accurate and provides useful information to the pilot. That's why you always use the DRIFT NUT to set the directional gyro to your runway heading (that's always accurately known) just before your start your takeoff roll.  Then if the control tower says something like 'fly heading 235 and climb and maintain 5000' you can easily use your directional gyro to comply with the control tower's instructions.  If you didn't you would have to note what the gyro indicated after it spun up, then do some quick mental math, and turn to the heading as instructed.
Seems to me you are admitting they don't need drift nuts to function and neither does the pilot need a gyro with a drift nut to fly the plane to the destination.

The bottom line is, the gyro will work without a drift nut just fine but you will need to use that drift nut many times during your flight to save yourself from having to calculate an error differential that will continuously take place during the flight.  It's a known and verified fact that if you fly a straight heading, say directly along geographic North line, for a length of time, your directional gyro will continuously drift off the 360 (or 0) degree indicated heading as the earth rotates.  The gyro is working fine and is following the laws of physics but the drift nut is for the convenience of the pilot. As for my source if information:  FAA issued commercial pilot's license and experience as pilot in command over a period of about 30 years.
Yes, you confirmed everything.

You do not need a gyro with a drift nut to fly.

Basically, it appears a drift nut is merely something of an automated process that provides additional information that was already available to all pilots and capable of being performed regardless.
You are correct in certain aspects but you are still trying to hide the most important reason of why a drift nut is needed.  Let's start with a practical scenario.  A pilot starts up his aircraft and gets everything warmed up.  The directional gyro stabilizes at a indicated heading of 236 degrees.  Assume the aircraft is sitting on the ramp at a heading of 093 degrees. That means that the gyro indicates 143 degrees more than the actual aircraft true heading but the gyro is working perfectly well and will stay at that heading but will slowly change as the earth rotates under the aircraft.  The pilot next taxies out to runway 14.  That means the actual runway heading is at a geographic heading of about 140 degrees.  So before takeoff with the aircraft aligned with the runway center line the directional gyro will then indicate 283 degrees.  You take off and the control tower gives you instructions to turn left to heading 125 degrees for traffic avoidance.  Now you have to do some quick mental math you could just add 125 + 143 and turn to a gyro indicated heading of 268. 


You probably are starting to get the picture.  The drift nut doesn't change anything about how the gyro actually works but it does save the pilot a lot of mental arithmetic and probably avoids plenty of mistakes that could happen at critical times.  On top of this as the earth spins and takes the atmosphere and the aircraft with it the directional gyro's heading accuracy will slowly become inaccurate.  This means that the pilot will then be required to have a stopwatch as well to keep track of the drift of the azimuth as a function of time.  These days you could probably just have an iPhone app to keep track of everything, but 50 years ago when I was first starting to fly we didn't have all the high tech stuff like that.  Instead a drift nut was installed on the directional gyro.  Again, it didn't actually have any effect on how the gyro works or the gyro's accuracy, but it did make the directional gyro a whole lot more of an effective instrument that the pilot could use for his navigation between point A and point B.       
Why would I try to hide something that is not needed?

Seems you are attempting to ascribe extreme relevance to something that turns out be a matter of simple convenience.

In other words, without Google Maps installed on your phone, getting to grandma's house for Thanksgiving dinner wouldn't be possible.

That's your argument.
Now you have gone into trolling mode with your comments. 

I've explained in detail what the drift nut is used for on a directional gyro and how it greatly reduces a pilot's workload and that's a particularly important safety issue.  You could get out your stop watch and every 20 or 30 minutes during the flight mentally factor in a couple of degrees of compensation needed to make your gyro give you your correct heading to compensate for the rotation of the earth or you could just have a drift nut.  Pilot's convenience or SAFETY ?   

As for going to grandma's house I just go over the river and thru the woods to grandmother's house I go. THE HORSE KNOWS THE WAY TO CARRY THE SLEIGH.......So no, it's not me that need the iPhone and Google maps.   
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #78 on: May 11, 2021, 10:12:06 AM »
The fact that two lines originating from two points in the sky would first intersect at some point below the observer shows nothing.

If you agree that an angle in degrees is formed by two vectors or lines, and that two places are separated by a number of degrees of latitude or longitude, where is the point at which they intersect?

Can you show a diagram of how you see it working?
The point of intersection you provided has nothing to do with the lat/long coordinate system. It is merely an extension of two separate points in the sky, with lines traced to their point of intersection below the observer.

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2021, 10:16:49 AM »
Your own source proves that to be a fact and you are just plain wrong.
Quote
Where does it prove that, and how? I've clearly shown that it is dark in those three places, and you just keep saying it isn't. Pony up some actual evidence, or just admit you're wrong, which anybody reading this can plainly see.
For the final time, it is not dark enough in the three locations for Sigma Octantis to be visible to three independent observers in those three locations.

Your own sources prove this to be true.

So you say 'your own source proves x' and I ask 'where does it prove that, and how?'. Your response: 'your own source proves x'. You're just endlessly repeating the same thing, without actually responding to what is being asked. Where, precisely, does the site I linked to show that it isn't dark at the same time on those three continents? An example of what might be acceptable would be a screenshot from 21 June at 2142UTC, which is the time and date I suggested, showing something other than what I described, which is nighttime in Africa, and the extreme east and west coast respectively of South America and Australia. But you've done no such thing, presumably because you either couldn't be bothered to check or you know it to be exactly as I described and are hoping that repeating your false assertion will make it go away.

It won't go away though. If you log in to those webcams I suggested at 2142UTC on 21st June, it will be dark in all three places.

You also seem to be trying to muddy things by referring to Sig Oct's dimness. It certainly is hard to see. But on a clear night, with reasonable eyesight it's very achievable. And of course with a telescope or even binos, it's even easier. Why wouldn't somebody be able to see it from those three locations? You aren't offering anything to prove your point other than 'your own source says...'. That's a meaningless statement without some kind of link or picture etc.
Again, I am not muddying things by using your source. It is plainly evident from your source that Sigma Octantis could not possibly be visible in all three places at once because it is not dark enough in all three places at once.

Dark enough.

Dark enough.

Your source.

Your source.

ETA: Sigma Octantis not useful for navigation due to the fact it is barely visible. Perhaps it maybe not even a "pole star."
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 05:30:08 PM by Action80 »