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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2080 on: April 07, 2015, 07:58:46 PM »
Over six hundred years.  However, Nords have historically stuck to their own gods and barely tolerated foreign ones, even when ruled by previous empires, and as recently as Oblivion were confirmed to still be as stubborn and traditionally-minded as always.  The mass conversion must have happened in only the two hundred years separating those games.

But isn't Skyrim supposed to depict the downturn of humans in general, including the muddying of their belief systems? I think it fits the narrative pretty well for Nords to start to become less and less aware of their past while their future is simultaneously becoming rather bleak.

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2081 on: April 09, 2015, 05:14:21 AM »
If that was their intention, then they screwed it up by focusing on the conflict over Talos.  With the exception of this guy, there's nothing in the game that addresses or even acknowledges this sudden religious shift.  I can't prove this, obviously, but I think this just came down to Bethesda going, "Oh, we can't have two pantheons, that'll confuse the kids!  Better just keep it to one."  Which is kind of funny, because TESO provides in-depth explorations of the religious beliefs of pretty much every culture on Tamriel, and I haven't heard any complaints about it being too complex or confusing.  Say what you like about game design, but at least as far as writing goes, ZeniMax clearly has more faith in the intelligence of the players than Bethesda does.  That might be due in part to the fact that ZeniMax specifically hired, get this, actual writers to handle the game's writing, rather than adopting Bethesda's strategy of apparently just asking around the office for anyone who's willing to work an extra shift to do the writing.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2082 on: April 09, 2015, 01:39:33 PM »
Talos is one of the Imperial nine, though, not necessarily part of the original Nord pantheon (which has been mostly forgotten). The Nords were pretty happy with the Empire in general until the Aldmeri conquest.

It sounds more like you are looking for things to complain about. Bethesda has sub-par writing, yes, but I doubt that sub-par writing directly stems from Bethesda thinking its players are dumb.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2083 on: April 09, 2015, 02:04:53 PM »
The Nords revered Talos because he was Dragonborn. Many Nords could not look at him without seeing a dragon.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2084 on: April 09, 2015, 02:12:50 PM »
The Nords revered Talos because he was Dragonborn. Many Nords could not look at him without seeing a dragon.

Then many Nords are severely vision handicapped.

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Offline Pongo

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2085 on: April 09, 2015, 02:21:55 PM »
If the lore magics it away well, then it will make logical sense (within the continuity of the universe, of course).

No. In a universe where magic doesn't have to follow a given set of guidelines then it will never make logical sense. They're going by Harry Potter rules: magic does what is most convenient for the plot at any given time.

Brandon Sanderson wrote on this. He called it Hard Magic and Soft Magic.  Harry Potter, as noted, uses soft magic meaning that it doesn't follow many rules.  With a soft magic system, the reader is left with a wider sense of wonder because literally anything can happen and be explained by magic.   Other soft systems include "A Song of Fire and Ice" or any Dungeons and Dragons book ever written.  This style leaves stores very prone to fall into deus ex machina traps for solving situations.

Other side is hard magic systems where everything is explained in great detail.  Wolverine's magical powers are an example of this.  He has magic claws and magic healing powers and they are pretty well defined.  He can't, for instance, start flying for no reason and explain it as magic (or mutation in this case).  Stories of this type will more often let the protagonist solve their problems with their magic without it feeling deus ex machina-ish.

Now, Elder Scrolls, as well as most fantasy games, strikes and interesting duality between the two.  The character you play operates under a very strict hard magic system; you can't just start doing something that your class can't do.  Yet, the NPC's are able to preform great feats of magic well beyond the scope of a players abilities.  NPC's often possess a strikingly powerful array of magic abilities that PC's at a much higher level can't obtain.  How often have you stumbled upon a ruined castle in a game and found a necromancer 20 levels below you that moved into town, turned the common folk undead, and now commands an entire dungeon of ex-townsfolk minions (of something of the ilk) and wonder why you can't do that?

Well, the why is easy, it's OP.  But the sacrifice here is loss of flavor in lieu of a bigger and more wondrous magical world.

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2086 on: April 12, 2015, 06:18:50 PM »
Talos is one of the Imperial nine, though, not necessarily part of the original Nord pantheon (which has been mostly forgotten). The Nords were pretty happy with the Empire in general until the Aldmeri conquest.

It sounds more like you are looking for things to complain about. Bethesda has sub-par writing, yes, but I doubt that sub-par writing directly stems from Bethesda thinking its players are dumb.

Certainly Talos wasn't part of the original Nordic pantheon, seeing how that predated his existence by thousands of years.  I suppose the fact that Talos is a favorite son of Skyrim explains his popularity there, but I think it wouldn't have been too hard to maybe extend the Thalmor's hostility towards his worship to the rest of the non-Aldmeric gods as well.  In general, I find that the more unique and different a culture is, the more interesting it is to explore.  The Nords turning to the Imperial pantheon between games made Skyrim just a little bit less compelling.

Brandon Sanderson wrote on this. He called it Hard Magic and Soft Magic.  Harry Potter, as noted, uses soft magic meaning that it doesn't follow many rules.  With a soft magic system, the reader is left with a wider sense of wonder because literally anything can happen and be explained by magic.   Other soft systems include "A Song of Fire and Ice" or any Dungeons and Dragons book ever written.  This style leaves stores very prone to fall into deus ex machina traps for solving situations.

Other side is hard magic systems where everything is explained in great detail.  Wolverine's magical powers are an example of this.  He has magic claws and magic healing powers and they are pretty well defined.  He can't, for instance, start flying for no reason and explain it as magic (or mutation in this case).  Stories of this type will more often let the protagonist solve their problems with their magic without it feeling deus ex machina-ish.

Now, Elder Scrolls, as well as most fantasy games, strikes and interesting duality between the two.  The character you play operates under a very strict hard magic system; you can't just start doing something that your class can't do.  Yet, the NPC's are able to preform great feats of magic well beyond the scope of a players abilities.  NPC's often possess a strikingly powerful array of magic abilities that PC's at a much higher level can't obtain.  How often have you stumbled upon a ruined castle in a game and found a necromancer 20 levels below you that moved into town, turned the common folk undead, and now commands an entire dungeon of ex-townsfolk minions (of something of the ilk) and wonder why you can't do that?

Well, the why is easy, it's OP.  But the sacrifice here is loss of flavor in lieu of a bigger and more wondrous magical world.

I agree with all of this.  However, I think it's fair to point out that at least as far as the background lore and worldbuilding of TES goes, new additions are largely built on the foundations that previous games (and even Kirkbride's weird OOG ramblings) built, leading to an expanded world that feels much more "plausible" and satisfying than many other fantasy franchises.  To continue picking on Harry Potter for a moment, the problem with the new information about magic that each book provided was that it was all disparate.  We would learn about Spell A, and that was it as far as Spell A went.  Then we would learn about Spell B, and Spell C, and so on.  There was no real connection between them in the greater world of magic.  Not so with TES.  Now, returning to The Remnant of Light, we can put it into a bit more context by also looking at this book.  Consider:

Quote
The spike of Ada-Mantia, and its Zero Stone, dictated the structure of reality in its Aurbic vicinity, defining for the Earth Bones their story or nature within the unfolding of the Dragon's (timebound) Tale. The Aldmeri or Merethic Elves were singular of purpose only so long as it took them to realize that other Towers, with their own Stones, could tell different stories, each following rules inscribed by Variorum Architects. And so the Mer self-refracted, each to their own creation, the Chimer following Red-Heart, the Bosmer burgeoning Green-Sap, the Altmer erecting Crystal-Like-Law, et alia.

...

[t]he arch-mage Anumaril fangled an eightfold Staff of Towers, each segment a semblance of a tower in its Dance. And then seven of these segments were borne by White-Gold Knights to distant Fold-Places, where they were hidden.

Remembering that Remnant began with this Anumaril giving Filestis a Remnant of Light and asking him to take it to the "cold sunset limit of Tamriel" (probably Skyrim), it seems safe to conclude that the Remnant was one of the eight pieces of the Staff of Towers.  And if the Towers can dictate the reality of the surrounding area, then it makes sense to suppose that the fragments of this magical staff, based on the Towers, can too.  So, the changed climate of High Rock wasn't just something that the writers pulled out of their asses, but a natural extension of Tower lore, which has its roots in games like Daggerfall and Morrowind.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 04:34:02 PM by Saddam Hussein »

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2087 on: April 18, 2015, 11:54:25 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Nord gods basically Nordicisations of the Imperial pantheon? (Kyne instead of Kynareth, for example?) In face of the resurgent elves and the chaos after the Oblivion crisis, maybe the Imperials simply imposed a standardisation in order to try to better unify the weaker human empire but left them mostly with their own traditions to placate the traditionalists (hence the little shrines instead of the Temples of the Nine found in Cyrodil, and the houses of the dead, instead of the graveyards and crypts?) I got the impression that the banning of Talos-worship was just the final straw in a long line of impositions from the Empire that Skyrim had simply grumbled about but grudgingly accepted?

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Offline beardo

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2088 on: April 18, 2015, 12:03:28 PM »
The Imperial Pantheon is pretty much a mix of the Elven and Nordic Pantheon with some of the names changed.
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Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2089 on: April 20, 2015, 02:41:21 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Nord gods basically Nordicisations of the Imperial pantheon? (Kyne instead of Kynareth, for example?) In face of the resurgent elves and the chaos after the Oblivion crisis, maybe the Imperials simply imposed a standardisation in order to try to better unify the weaker human empire but left them mostly with their own traditions to placate the traditionalists (hence the little shrines instead of the Temples of the Nine found in Cyrodil, and the houses of the dead, instead of the graveyards and crypts?) I got the impression that the banning of Talos-worship was just the final straw in a long line of impositions from the Empire that Skyrim had simply grumbled about but grudgingly accepted?

It was the other way around, actually.  Alessia took gods from both the Nordic and Aldmeric pantheons and gave them Imperialized names to serve as a sort of compromise between her new Nordic and Mer subjects.

I have now beaten Knights of the Nine!  I liked it overall.  It wasn't a masterpiece, but there were some neat puzzles, cool visuals, and intriguing new lore.  Speaking of the lore, though, I was disappointed by what little influence it actually had on the questline.  Just from their brief appearances in the new books, Alessia, Pelinal, and Morihaus all came across as very interesting and complex characters.  So it's too bad that rather than letting you learn more about and/or interact with them, Bethesda instead decided to make the bulk of the questline revolve around nine incredibly bland and forgettable ghosts who all have the exact same personality.  Bah.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 03:45:12 PM by Saddam Hussein »

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2090 on: April 23, 2015, 04:02:41 AM »
Ok. I just got Elder Scrolls Arena and DaggerFall. I can't get the other three without paying for special codes to use them, from what I understand. So, before I play them (I have downloaded them, but not yet played them), what am I expecting? Eric said that my computer wouldn't even play Skyrim with all the mods he's put on it, because there is so much shit that he's added. I don't know if would handle the standard version. I would think it would.

So, fire ahead. What am I going to expect here?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2091 on: April 23, 2015, 04:34:48 AM »
And is there anywhere that I can find something resembling instructions, or should I just go back to friend and say, "Hey, help me!"

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2092 on: April 23, 2015, 07:09:46 AM »
If you got them from elderscrolls.com, both games should include PDF's with instructions on how to use dosbox to run the games. If you need more help, use a search engine or ask your questions here.


And here's the Skyrim system requirements (pasted from the Steam page). If you know anything about your computer, this should give you an idea of how well it can run Skyrim.

MINIMUM:
OS: Windows 7/Vista/XP PC (32 or 64 bit)
Processor: Dual Core 2.0GHz or equivalent processor
Memory: 2GB System RAM
Hard Disk Space: 6GB free HDD Space
Video Card: Direct X 9.0c compliant video card with 512 MB of RAM
Sound: DirectX compatible sound card

RECOMMENDED:
Processor: Quad-core Intel or AMD CPU
Memory: 4GB System RAM
Video Card: DirectX 9.0c compatible NVIDIA or AMD ATI video card with 1GB of RAM (Nvidia GeForce GTX 260 or higher; ATI Radeon 4890 or higher) 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 07:15:37 AM by beardo »
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Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2093 on: April 24, 2015, 01:50:42 PM »
We can see many parallels between the Jewish people and the Dunmer.  Take note in particular of the prophet Veloth, who led his people on a great migration into the promised land of Resdayn.  However, be wary of the Redguards.  It would be easy to dismiss them as token blacks, but their culture has some Islamic influences as well.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2094 on: May 15, 2015, 11:07:08 AM »
Quote
Crowns carry over from one megaserver to the other. However, all items purchased via the Crown Store are only available on the server where they were purchased. So if you buy a pet on the NA megaserver, it will only be available when playing on the North American megaserver. If you want the pet to be available when playing on the European megaserver, you will need to purchase that pet on the European server.
On the notion of greed.
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Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2095 on: May 17, 2015, 07:08:57 PM »
Behold, an illuminating interview with ZeniMax's lead lore wizard:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/eso-live-episode-15-lore-time-lawrence-schick

On the notion of malleable lore and poorly-disguised retcons (I'm sure Rushy will love this):

Quote
[A]ll the lore in the game is delivered from the standpoint of people in Tamriel. In that way, Elder Scrolls is different from most fantasy campaign worlds, right? I mean, the typical paradigm, you know - George RR Martin with Westeros, Tolkien with Middle Earth, the familiar D&D worlds of The Forgotten Realms or the world of Greyhawk - those all have histories and backgrounds that are all laid out and they’ve all got some lore-daddy who decided everything and everything is ‘this is how it is’, so everything works within the envelope of things that are already decided.

Elder Scrolls - Tamriel - does not follow that paradigm. In Elder Scrolls, all lore is delivered not from on high by revelation, but from people who live their lives in the game, in the world of the game, and based on their beliefs. So that does two things for us: It means the lore always carries not just information about what the person is talking about, but also information about the person and their culture. Because the way the lore is delivered tells you how they believe things actually work in the world.

What this means, of course, is that people have different viewpoints - these viewpoints sometimes contradict each other, and so sometimes we have players saying “alright, this person believes that, and that person believes this other thing, but which one’s the real thing?” Well... it’s not a world like ours. In a world like ours, where you can sort of trust in science and say “well yes, people have different beliefs but I know there is an objective reality.” This is a world of myth. This is a world where reality is actually changeable, where the Divines can change not only what happens going forward, but what has happened in the past. So, you know, the idea there is an objective reality behind all these different people’s opinions is not necessarily the case in the world of Tamriel. So listen to what all these different people have to say, make up your own mind, make up your own beliefs about what happened and you’re as liable - since you’re playing in their world and you’re playing a character in their world - what you think happened is as legitimate as what that NPC thinks.

On the notion of the Tsaesci and their true form:

Quote
The Tsaesci were the Akaviri who invaded back in the First Era, and whose invasion was stopped by Reman who then became Reman I, Emperor of Tamriel and the first emperor of the Second Empire.

And they were referred to as the ‘snake-people.’ And there have been, you know, various accounts of them as being... as having various serpentine aspects to them. What we do know however is that you can find Akaviri armour in the game and, you know, if you are a human - or an elf - you can put this on. So how different could they have been if you can wear their armour? But on the other hand, you know, maybe they were shape-shifters? Some people think that’s true too. It just depends who you ask.

Then of course, the Akaviri who then invaded ten years prior to the start of Elder Scrolls Online, those weren’t the Tsaesci, those were the Kamal and they’re different and… but we won’t go into them today.

On the notion of Vvardenfell:

Quote
What’s going on in Vvardenfell? So I can give you the current situation there in general outlines without having to go into character or anything. Vvardenfell... Much of it is still - I wouldn’t say wasteland - but the central part of Vvardenfell is largely inhabited by nomadic Ashlander tribes, the east coast of Vvardenfell, along the inner sea, facing the Telvanni Peninsular  - there are various places there that are of value to the Telvanni Mage Lords so they have more or less claimed the eastern coast of Vvardenfell. Then there is the upper north-west portion, that faces Blacklight across the sea there, and where there are exploitable resources and things there, that’s pretty much administered by the Great House Dunmer from Blacklight.

But Vvardenfell in the Second Era, during the time of Elder Scrolls Online, is lightly peopled and we do hope eventually to go there, because that was so much fun in Morrowind, but it’s not currently on the slate of anything that we are working on. I hope that adequately answered the question.

On the notion of Mike the Liar:

Quote
Gina: M’aiq the Liar I assume?

Lawrence: M-ike the Liar, that’s right.

Gina: Dammit, is it ‘Mike’? I’ve always said ‘Maq’. There’s another one!

Lawrence: M-ike. It’s M-ike. [[He emphasizes the pause in the middle of the word.]] It’s got a little glottal stop in the middle of it.

lore lore lore

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2096 on: May 18, 2015, 07:33:48 AM »
Behold, an illuminating interview with ZeniMax's lead lore wizard:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/eso-live-episode-15-lore-time-lawrence-schick

On the notion of malleable lore and poorly-disguised retcons (I'm sure Rushy will love this):

Quote
[A]ll the lore in the game is delivered from the standpoint of people in Tamriel. In that way, Elder Scrolls is different from most fantasy campaign worlds, right? I mean, the typical paradigm, you know - George RR Martin with Westeros, Tolkien with Middle Earth, the familiar D&D worlds of The Forgotten Realms or the world of Greyhawk - those all have histories and backgrounds that are all laid out and they’ve all got some lore-daddy who decided everything and everything is ‘this is how it is’, so everything works within the envelope of things that are already decided.

Elder Scrolls - Tamriel - does not follow that paradigm. In Elder Scrolls, all lore is delivered not from on high by revelation, but from people who live their lives in the game, in the world of the game, and based on their beliefs. So that does two things for us: It means the lore always carries not just information about what the person is talking about, but also information about the person and their culture. Because the way the lore is delivered tells you how they believe things actually work in the world.

What this means, of course, is that people have different viewpoints - these viewpoints sometimes contradict each other, and so sometimes we have players saying “alright, this person believes that, and that person believes this other thing, but which one’s the real thing?” Well... it’s not a world like ours. In a world like ours, where you can sort of trust in science and say “well yes, people have different beliefs but I know there is an objective reality.” This is a world of myth. This is a world where reality is actually changeable, where the Divines can change not only what happens going forward, but what has happened in the past. So, you know, the idea there is an objective reality behind all these different people’s opinions is not necessarily the case in the world of Tamriel. So listen to what all these different people have to say, make up your own mind, make up your own beliefs about what happened and you’re as liable - since you’re playing in their world and you’re playing a character in their world - what you think happened is as legitimate as what that NPC thinks.


No TES, you aren't cooler than Westeros or Middle-Earth. Both of those respective universes are filled with mysteries that differ depending on the reader, in fact Tolkien is quite famous for leaving many mysteries in his works. For example, the R+L=J theory in Westeros and Tom Bombadil in Middle-Earth.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 07:35:27 AM by Vindictus »

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Offline Vongeo

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2097 on: May 18, 2015, 09:42:45 PM »
Is the TESO community cool still since they went Free to play? Or do they want people to know what they are doing and/or bitch kitties?
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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2098 on: May 18, 2015, 09:46:35 PM »
If you want answers, you should try to put more effort into making some sense.
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Offline Vongeo

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #2099 on: May 18, 2015, 11:31:54 PM »
If you want answers, you should try to put more effort into making some sense.
Maybe work on your reading comprehension?
Maple syrup was a kind of candy, made from the blood of trees.