[Rushy]

"Microsoft, Oracle and and other tech giants team up Covid-19 vaccine 'passports'"

Some of the country's biggest tech firms and health care organizations have joined together to help facilitate that return to "normal." The group, called the Vaccine Credential Initiative, wants to ensure that everyone has access to a secure, digital record of their Covid-19 vaccination — like a digital vaccine passport — that can be stored in people's smartphones. The records could be used for everything from airline travel to entering concert venues.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/16/tech/coronavirus-vaccine-records-microsoft-salesforce/index.html

I for one am glad that oversized tech companies are now being given power to whitelist people. I am certain that this system will not be abused in any way and mistakes will not be made. This will not set any dangerous precedents for private organizations to maintain deeper control over other people's activities.

[Dr David Thork]

I am disappointed not to see VISA, Experian, paypal, major banks, mortgage lenders and payment processors not involving themselves to nudge the public in the right direction with the threat of financial oblivion for the lepers who refuse the jabs. Refusal to take the jab should of course knock 500pts of your credit rating and make you ineligible for mortgages and loans. I hope the world of finance soon turns its attention with the help of government to make sure that people do the right thing.

[Lord Dave]

I have no issues with this.  Its no different than a digital drivers license, digital boarding passes, digital payment, etc...

Its basically big tech taking paper documentation (which you'd need to have on you) and making it a secure digital copy that officials will accept instead of a piece of paper you printed out.

[Dr David Thork]

I have no issues with this.

Of course you don't. You literally approve of authoritarianism in every single form it is presented to you. You want to be told how to live, presumably because you are unsure and frightened to have to look after yourself. You want a government to do it for you and you want to be treated like a child by a protective nanny state.

[stack]

I have no issues with this.

Of course you don't. You literally approve of authoritarianism in every single form it is presented to you. You want to be told how to live, presumably because you are unsure and frightened to have to look after yourself. You want a government to do it for you and you want to be treated like a child by a protective nanny state.

It's more of a combination of things. Not just a big tech or big brother control. For instance, the example given, a concert venue may require some proof of vaccination to be allowed to enter. That's not a government thing, that's private sector stuff. One venue may require it, another may not. No one is holding a governmental gun to your head to get vaccinated. Areas of the private sector may determine on their own what their policy may be. Just like today, I am not allowed to get into an Uber without a mask. That's Uber's policy. Uber may decide in the future that I can't get a ride without proof of vaccination. It's their private sector call.

Already, States require proof of immunization to enroll kids in school. However, each State has varying degrees of opt-out criteria.

Maybe having a consolidated electronic record of everyone's vaccination status is the creepy part. But not everyone has electronic means. So maybe there will be something like that and other people will have to show some piece of paper from an MD that shows they were vaccinated. Or, perhaps the private sector will individually decide they don't require anything at all for someone to use their service. At the end of the day, it's a private sector call.

[Lord Dave]

I have no issues with this.

Of course you don't. You literally approve of authoritarianism in every single form it is presented to you. You want to be told how to live, presumably because you are unsure and frightened to have to look after yourself. You want a government to do it for you and you want to be treated like a child by a protective nanny state.

This is false.  I hate Authoritarians, like Donald Trump.  (Seriously he IS an authoritarian.  Like as pure as you get). Plus, no one is telling anyone to get the future service so your argument is kinda worthless.

[bulmabriefs144]

I am disappointed not to see VISA, Experian, paypal, major banks, mortgage lenders and payment processors not involving themselves to nudge the public in the right direction with the threat of financial oblivion for the lepers who refuse the jabs. Refusal to take the jab should of course knock 500pts of your credit rating and make you ineligible for mortgages and loans. I hope the world of finance soon turns its attention with the help of government to make sure that people do the right thing.

The "right thing"?!? Are you serious?

Revelation 13:16-17

It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I want to be able to do business without having to have some sort of creepy license saying that I branded myself in loyalty to some sketchy medical cult for a "disease" when I have literally seen nobody coughing.  Now maybe you have, but when did it become your business? 
You believe that abortion is right, correct? What is it they always say? "My body, my choice"? So how is it your choice, to the extent where you think that having credit card companies act like Gestapo is okay?

This is the wrong thing, the absolute wrong thing, and you are evil. If someone told me this in person, I would hurt them. It's on the level of evil of torturing a puppy, and justifying it by saying you're doing tests.

Here's what happens when people don't want to "do the right thing."  They suffer for weeks and months then starve to death. 

What starving to death looks like.

 https://www.medicaldaily.com/now-entering-starvation-mode-what-happens-your-metabolic-processes-when-you-stop-feeding-280666

Your glucose stores may last you for up to 24 or 48 hours, though they will mostly be depleted after six hours. Then, not only will you be hangry, but your body will be entering a state of ketosis, which involves elevated levels of ketone bodies in your system. Ketone bodies are produced from fatty acids when liver glycogen is entirely depleted, and are used for energy.

The rough part happens after 72 hours of no eating — this is the stage of autophagy. Once the fats are broken down, your body turns to breaking down protein in muscles, essentially wasting away your muscles. At this point, your brain’s requirement for glucose will have dropped from 120 grams per day to only 30 grams. But your brain will need to start getting energy from protein next. Breaking down protein and releasing amino acids into the bloodstream will produce more glucose; this transformation takes place in the liver, and your brain will be fueled by its much-needed glucose once again. Regardless, though your brain will be able to survive from protein, your muscles will slowly disappear.

However, at a certain point, your immune system will be weakened due to lack of vitamins and minerals. Typically, two diseases can occur in end-stage starvation: marasmus and kwashiorkor.

You want to wish this on people who don't follow your stupid vaccine rules, who suspect the vaccine may alter their genes or give them bad side effects.

Btw, there are already bad side effects.  Some lady had serious seizure-like spasms after taking this.  Others developed Bell's palsy.  So forgive me, but it is not right to force people to take a potentially dangerous "medicine".

I voted for Trump, now I'm skeptical. But I'm sure as hell sure that this is not the right thing.

https://unapologeticrepublican.com/moderna-vaccine-side-effects-convulsions-spasms-watch/
Spasms (btw, I had seizures as a child. No thanks)

https://gulfnews.com/world/americas/fda-finds-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-highly-effective-but-points-out-bells-palsy-cases-1.1608116485618
Bell's palsy

But yea, "to hell with your concerns, let's break your credit score."

[honk]

He was being ironic. Also, if anyone is interested, I received my first dose of the vaccine last week, because I am (supposedly) a first responder. I'll let you know if I die.

[Lord Dave]

A mark on your forearm is not a hand or head.

A MAGA cap however...

[JSS]

Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I'd be happy extending you that courtesy if you return it by staying indoors alone for the rest of your life so you don't infect anyone. You are free to not get the shot, but it's still selfish and you should rightly keep away from others as part of your choice.

I'm pretty sure the Bible, and Jesus said you should put some effort into caring about others, which includes doing things to ensure you don't spread a deadly disease during a pandemic.

Would Jesus get a vaccine to protect others? Would Jesus wear a mask if it would save lives? Would Jesus stand 6 feet away while giving a sermon if it would protect people?

WWJD?

[AATW]

Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I'd be happy extending you that courtesy if you return it by staying indoors alone for the rest of your life so you don't infect anyone. You are free to not get the shot, but it's still selfish and you should rightly keep away from others as part of your choice.

I'm pretty sure the Bible, and Jesus said you should put some effort into caring about others, which includes doing things to ensure you don't spread a deadly disease during a pandemic.

Would Jesus get a vaccine to protect others? Would Jesus wear a mask if it would save lives? Would Jesus stand 6 feet away while giving a sermon if it would protect people?

WWJD?

I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I don't see it as my moral duty to get this vaccine. If I'm called to have it I probably will, but I don't think it should be mandated.
I've never had a flu jab because I'm (relatively!) young and don't really feel I need one. If I get flu then I trust my body to deal with it.
I feel the same about Covid. If all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then what does it matter if I have?
Mandating this - or making so that you don't have to get vaccinates but if you don't then you can't travel or go in restaurants or whatever. It seems to me that sets a pretty dangerous precedent in terms of people's freedom.

[JSS]

Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I'd be happy extending you that courtesy if you return it by staying indoors alone for the rest of your life so you don't infect anyone. You are free to not get the shot, but it's still selfish and you should rightly keep away from others as part of your choice.

I'm pretty sure the Bible, and Jesus said you should put some effort into caring about others, which includes doing things to ensure you don't spread a deadly disease during a pandemic.

Would Jesus get a vaccine to protect others? Would Jesus wear a mask if it would save lives? Would Jesus stand 6 feet away while giving a sermon if it would protect people?

WWJD?

I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I don't see it as my moral duty to get this vaccine. If I'm called to have it I probably will, but I don't think it should be mandated.
I've never had a flu jab because I'm (relatively!) young and don't really feel I need one. If I get flu then I trust my body to deal with it.
I feel the same about Covid. If all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then what does it matter if I have?
Mandating this - or making so that you don't have to get vaccinates but if you don't then you can't travel or go in restaurants or whatever. It seems to me that sets a pretty dangerous precedent in terms of people's freedom.

Extend your reasoning to more people.

If only half the population gets the vaccine it's going to be useless. Remember it doesn't work 100%. If someone is surrounded by infected people, they will get it eventually, vaccine or not.  You need a very high percentage of the population to take it for it to work. You HAVE to get as many people on board.

You are mistaken in thinking that a vulnerable person is immune and perfectly fine if they get the vaccine. They are not. They are still at risk, from you. You can be healthy and catch COVID and spread it to other people, even if they are vaccinated.

Freedom is not absolute. You do not have the freedom to shoot me in the head for no reason. There are limits, and there are times when other freedoms, like the freedom not to die from a preventable disease that someone spreads because they feel their freedom is worth more than other peoples lives.

What is dangerous is allowing vaccinated people to go into packed planes and infect everyone. That's not freedom, that's deliberately choosing to harm others.

That at least, is how I see it.

[Iceman]

Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I'd be happy extending you that courtesy if you return it by staying indoors alone for the rest of your life so you don't infect anyone. You are free to not get the shot, but it's still selfish and you should rightly keep away from others as part of your choice.

I'm pretty sure the Bible, and Jesus said you should put some effort into caring about others, which includes doing things to ensure you don't spread a deadly disease during a pandemic.

Would Jesus get a vaccine to protect others? Would Jesus wear a mask if it would save lives? Would Jesus stand 6 feet away while giving a sermon if it would protect people?

WWJD?

I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I don't see it as my moral duty to get this vaccine. If I'm called to have it I probably will, but I don't think it should be mandated.
I've never had a flu jab because I'm (relatively!) young and don't really feel I need one. If I get flu then I trust my body to deal with it.
I feel the same about Covid. If all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then what does it matter if I have?
Mandating this - or making so that you don't have to get vaccinates but if you don't then you can't travel or go in restaurants or whatever. It seems to me that sets a pretty dangerous precedent in terms of people's freedom.

I'm not going to give anyone too hard a time for being leery of the vaccine. I would say it's nowhere near as scary a prospect as it's being made out to be by some, but that's my take.

What I would say though, is that your reasoning, based on similarities to the flu vaccine, is flawed. You arent encouraged to get a yearly flu vaccine to protect yourself, a young healthy person. While it does offer you protection, giving you a personal benefit to getting vaccinated, the main reason for flu vaccination is to reduce the number of vulnerable people who catch it, so that we can collectively reduce the burden on our healthcare systems.

[AATW]

I'm not going to give anyone too hard a time for being leery of the vaccine. I would say it's nowhere near as scary a prospect as it's being made out to be by some, but that's my take.

What I would say though, is that your reasoning, based on similarities to the flu vaccine, is flawed. You arent encouraged to get a yearly flu vaccine to protect yourself, a young healthy person. While it does offer you protection, giving you a personal benefit to getting vaccinated, the main reason for flu vaccination is to reduce the number of vulnerable people who catch it, so that we can collectively reduce the burden on our healthcare systems.

I don't think it's scary. When push comes to shove I'll probably have it. I just don't think it should be mandated.

I don't understand JSS's argument about it only being effective if more or less everyone has the vaccination. You seem to be arguing along the same lines.
I'm not young but I am under 50, in reasonably good health and I don't have any concerns about getting the 'Rona. I wouldn't go out of my way to and I have been following (pretty much) the government guidelines. But if I get it then I don't think I'll get that ill.

The reason Covid is a bad thing is that for older people, or for people with certain underlying health conditions, it has a significantly higher mortality rate than the flu.
That means a lot of people getting ill which places a big burden on health services and a lot of people dying which is obviously a bad thing.
Let's imagine no-one over 50 could get the disease then sure, this would be "a thing", some people would get ill and some would die, but not enough to make much of a blip in terms of general mortality stats. Certainly it wouldn't be something you'd want to shut down entire countries for (I'm not sure we should be doing that anyway, but that's a different discussion).

The point is if all the vulnerable people have the vaccine and it protects them from infection x% of the time then if x% is high then sure, some people will still get ill and some will die but as above it would hardly make a blip in the stats and wouldn't put an undue load on the health services. I certainly wouldn't be going out of my way to infect anyone, if I did start showing symptoms then I'd stay home - actually I did do that when at the start of all this I had a bit of a cold (which I don't think was Covid, but it's possible).

I agree that freedom is not absolute but I can't think of another example where it's been suggested that a certain vaccine or medicine is mandated. That seems like a line which shouldn't be crossed.

[Rama Set]

JSS is talking about herd immunity which requires somewhere around 70% immunity to be effective iirc. There are people who are vulnerable but can’t get vaccinated who rely on herd immunity for safety.

[Action80]

JSS - You get the vaccine, you are not immune.

JSS - If you get the vaccine, you can still pass it on to others.

JSS - We need to mandate the vaccine.

JSS - If you do not get the vaccine, you have no business conducting any business at all. Stay away.

One wonders how this could possibly be considered a legitimate position.

[Rama Set]

It’s more nuanced than your meme presentation of it.

[Action80]

It’s more nuanced than your meme presentation of it.

Must be so nuanced you too are unable to elucidate further.

Looks like a case for the Dalai Lama.

[Lord Dave]

Here's an argument for:
Mutations.

1 year ago there was only 1 varient.  Then 2.  Now there's 4.
The longer the virus remains in circulation, the more it will mutate.  Vaccines will need to be altered constantly.  This will become the new Flu shot.  Except its more deadly.

[JSS]

I don't understand JSS's argument about it only being effective if more or less everyone has the vaccination. You seem to be arguing along the same lines.
I'm not young but I am under 50, in reasonably good health and I don't have any concerns about getting the 'Rona. I wouldn't go out of my way to and I have been following (pretty much) the government guidelines. But if I get it then I don't think I'll get that ill.

I think what you are missing is you can get COVID, show no symptoms, and spread it to everyone you are in contact with for weeks.  Grocery stores, buses, planes, restaurants, and family members you visit.

By not taking the vaccine you are now a potential spreader to people who very well might die from it, and every one who gets it can spread it to others.

You are also ignoring all the evidence showing that even people who show no symptoms are suffering heart and lung damage, and we as of yet have no idea how the long term effects will play out.  You may be in serious trouble in ten years, we just don't know yet.

So yes, you might not get that obviously ill... but you are putting others in danger.  This is why you should get it, not just for yourself, but to help others.