Re: Inquiries about Flat Earth theory of the firmament.
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2020, 07:34:58 AM »
@goldcashew

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I would say that the "No one knows" part is not accurate since we know the layers that make up the atmosphere and we know that there isn't a physical barrier from Earth's atmosphere to space.

We do know, and importantly - can validate/verify, the layers of the air above us - to a certain altitude where hydrogen balloons stop rising.

Above there, all the data comes from the untrustworthy MIC and cannot be verified or validated.

We know that we have positive air pressure, and that we have for a long time.  There can't be an infinite sky vacuum above our heads without a barrier in that case.  Some suggest that the barrier is a "field" of some kind, and though this is not impossible - we have measured no field in nature of the required strength.  Gravity is far too weak (chiefly because it is fictional) to "hold down" the air against its fundamental nature and behavior (basic gas law, and the 2nd law of thermodynamics) - and this is easily validated here on earth where the fictional gravity "field" is supposed strongest.

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Many folks on this thread are talking about an ozone layer, but that's just one of the layers of the atmosphere that we can all agree exists, but not a physical barrier firmament per se.

I think we most all agree with that, except tron1002!  But that doesn't make us right or them wrong!

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there isn't really a common view of what the firmament is or if it even exists.

That's generally true, in my experience.  Though it is common (in my experience) and perhaps even more than half of flat earth researchers deduce, conclude, and/or believe that there is a dome.  If you come to this conclusion due to the bible, you find that the dome is made of crystal.  If you deduce it from scientific law, then you need more data to determine what the composition and shape are - if the barrier is physical/material at all!

Re: Inquiries about Flat Earth theory of the firmament.
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2020, 10:00:31 AM »
@goldcashew

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We do know, and importantly - can validate/verify, the layers of the air above us - to a certain altitude where hydrogen balloons stop rising.



And why would a hydrogen (or, more usually helium) balloon stop rising?  Has it hit the dome?  This could be verified by telemetry. 

A gas balloon rises because the overall density of the envelope and payload is less than that of the supporting atmosphere.  I think you agree that the density of the supporting atmosphere reduces with altitude; high altitude balloons are designed to expand with reducing atmospheric pressure, further reducing their density, and permitting continued ascent until the limits of construction and size are reached.  In other words, there aren't enough atmospheric air molecules-per-cubic-metre to support further ascent. 

And what does this tell us?  With increasing altitude, density of air (the number of molecules per cubic metre) reduces at a measurable and predictable rate.  And if the density of something keeps decreasing at a predictable rate it eventually becomes, what?


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Offline RhesusVX

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Re: Inquiries about Flat Earth theory of the firmament.
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2020, 10:47:10 AM »
We do know, and importantly - can validate/verify, the layers of the air above us - to a certain altitude where hydrogen balloons stop rising.

Above there, all the data comes from the untrustworthy MIC and cannot be verified or validated.

We know that we have positive air pressure, and that we have for a long time.  There can't be an infinite sky vacuum above our heads without a barrier in that case.  Some suggest that the barrier is a "field" of some kind, and though this is not impossible - we have measured no field in nature of the required strength.  Gravity is far too weak (chiefly because it is fictional) to "hold down" the air against its fundamental nature and behavior (basic gas law, and the 2nd law of thermodynamics) - and this is easily validated here on earth where the fictional gravity "field" is supposed strongest.

I'm glad you accept the evidence/data that you can at least wrap your head around because you "know" we have sent scientific instruments up there.  But, when it comes to the realms of space and things in orbit doing the measurements, why is that data suddenly becomes untrustworthy?  Is it because you suggest that we haven't actually been into space, and so because of that belief (yes, belief - you cannot prove we haven't) you assume all related evidence to be void?

Speaking of void, empty space...  You're right, gravity is relatively weak, but all it takes is any amount of gravity for something to be "held down".  The weaker the gravity, the thinner the atmosphere, and the lower the pressure gradient.  The further you get from the surface, the lower the pressure to the point where there are no longer any air molecules.  It's a simple concept.  I have to question your understanding of the basic gas law and the 2nd law of thermodynamics though, because you say there CAN'T be an infinite sky vacuum above our heads.  Can't be...why not?  I've asked this before - what do you think a vacuum is?  Do you think it's a suction force, where space acts like one giant vacuum cleaner which would suck the atmosphere away from our surface?  The only reason vacuum cleaners on Earth work as they do is because they create a pressure difference between the surface under the vacuum cleaner and the air around it.  Same with a drinking straw - you "suck" the air out of the straw, causing the pressure on the inside of the stray to be lower than outside.  The positive air pressure pushes down on the surface of the liquid, in turn pushing it up the straw.  The very notion of "suction" is a consequence of having gravity and an atmosphere, and is a pushing force.

The vacuum of space is the absence of matter (in simple terms) not because of suction, but because it is empty.  On Earth, with the presence of gravity and the absence of anything else (solar winds etc.) no barrier would be needed to keep our atmosphere in place.  Remove gravity and suddenly you need an explanation for containment.  Like most areas of FET, there are several - four at the current time of writing in the Wiki, none of which can be proven, but at least one discredited.

The closest I can wrap my head around would be the Earth's magnetosphere, but given that reaches out tens of thousands of miles into space, it doesn't quite fit the flat Earth model as the Sun would be contained within the field, not outside it.
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Offline Iceman

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Re: Inquiries about Flat Earth theory of the firmament.
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2020, 01:22:12 PM »
A nice video from a balloon ascent was release not too long ago. Lots of beautiful images, but more importantly, equipped with live streaming of temperature and atmospheric pressure data during ascent and descent phases. The balloon reached an altitude of about 38 km, where it burst, as the pressure had dropped to 0.003 atm (getting real close to zero there - not much of a gradient compared to the ambient pressure within the rest of the 'vacuum's of space!)

I forget the name of the channel, but remember the balloon was nicknamed MAGE.

Offline fisherman

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Re: Inquiries about Flat Earth theory of the firmament.
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2020, 01:43:11 PM »
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Speaking of void, empty space...  You're right, gravity is relatively weak, but all it takes is any amount of gravity for something to be "held down".  The weaker the gravity, the thinner the atmosphere, and the lower the pressure gradient.  The further you get from the surface, the lower the pressure to the point where there are no longer any air molecules.  It's a simple concept.  I have to question your understanding of the basic gas law and the 2nd law of thermodynamics though, because you say there CAN'T be an infinite sky vacuum above our heads.  Can't be...why not?  I've asked this before - what do you think a vacuum is?  Do you think it's a suction force, where space acts like one giant vacuum cleaner which would suck the atmosphere away from our surface?  The only reason vacuum cleaners on Earth work as they do is because they create a pressure difference between the surface under the vacuum cleaner and the air around it.  Same with a drinking straw - you "suck" the air out of the straw, causing the pressure on the inside of the stray to be lower than outside.  The positive air pressure pushes down on the surface of the liquid, in turn pushing it up the straw.  The very notion of "suction" is a consequence of having gravity and an atmosphere, and is a pushing force

People often think that someone will get "sucked out" of an airplane if the door is opened, when in reality, they would get "pushed" out by the rush of air moving from the area of higher pressure to lower pressure. But there is only so much air in the cabin and eventually, the pressure will equalize.

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A nice video from a balloon ascent was release not too long ago. Lots of beautiful images, but more importantly, equipped with live streaming of temperature and atmospheric pressure data during ascent and descent phases. The balloon reached an altitude of about 38 km, where it burst, as the pressure had dropped to 0.003 atm (getting real close to zero there - not much of a gradient compared to the ambient pressure within the rest of the 'vacuum's of space!
)

Same sort of thing happens with a regular balloon on the surface.  Poke a hole in one and it will fly around the room as the pressure of the balloon pushes the air out.  Once the pressure between the balloon and the air in the room stabilizes, it stops.
There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information

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Offline RhesusVX

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Re: Inquiries about Flat Earth theory of the firmament.
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2020, 01:46:16 PM »
People often think that someone will get "sucked out" of an airplane if the door is opened, when in reality, they would get "pushed" out by the rush of air moving from the area of higher pressure to lower pressure. But there is only so much air in the cabin and eventually, the pressure will equalize.

Yep, so true!  Gotta' love the movies!

A nice video from a balloon ascent was release not too long ago. Lots of beautiful images, but more importantly, equipped with live streaming of temperature and atmospheric pressure data during ascent and descent phases. The balloon reached an altitude of about 38 km, where it burst, as the pressure had dropped to 0.003 atm (getting real close to zero there - not much of a gradient compared to the ambient pressure within the rest of the 'vacuum's of space!)

What is it you're trying to infer/get across though with the bit I highlighted in bold?  On the surface of the Earth it is 1 atmosphere (by our definition).  In space it is 0 because there is no atmosphere, and there is a gradient from 1 - 0.  Such balloons are partially filled.  As they rise up, the pressure outside decreases and the gas inside expands to fill the space and stretch the balloon.  When the pressure difference is high enough, and the balloon can no longer contain the gas, it ruptures.  I'm not really sure what this observation does other than confirm the fact that the higher up you go, the lower the atmospheric pressure.  Or are you just agreeing with that fact?
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Re: Inquiries about Flat Earth theory of the firmament.
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2020, 01:59:52 PM »
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Or are you just agreeing with that fact?

Just agreeing.
There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Inquiries about Flat Earth theory of the firmament.
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2020, 02:05:19 PM »
Yea, I was adding reference recent empirical evidence of the atmospheric pressure gradient.

One of the main reasons for the 'need' for a firmament is to keep our atmosphere protected from the vacuum of space and the supposed argument that a vacuum cant exist beyond our atmosphere because of the supposed breaking of the second law of thermodynamics that is routinely parroted.

If the pressure at high altitude in the atmosphere is near zero (as seen at ~38km) then there is minimal remaining gradient between the upper atmosphere and the surrounding regions of space. Minimal gradient = minimal force, hence why our atmosphere can stay firmly attached to our delightful little planet even though theres no pressure in space.

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Offline RhesusVX

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Re: Inquiries about Flat Earth theory of the firmament.
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2020, 02:38:50 PM »
Cheers @Iceman2020, gotcha', although the minimal gradient at altitude isn't the cause of our atmosphere being bound to our planet.  It's the very fact that our atmosphere is bound to our planet by gravity in the first place that causes the minimal gradient at altitude, eventually fading to nothing.
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Re: Inquiries about Flat Earth theory of the firmament.
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2020, 02:43:41 PM »
Yep, 100%.  ...that was bad wording on my part... it's what prevents the upper layers from getting 'sucked away' by the vacuum of space, but the root cause of our atmosphere being stuck to us and having the observed gradient in the first place is gravity.

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Offline RhesusVX

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Re: Inquiries about Flat Earth theory of the firmament.
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2020, 03:20:40 PM »
Yeah, I think the association of the word suction with vacuum is what causes a lot of confusion for people as they assume that means space must somehow behave like a giant vacuum cleaner!  Mind you, even if it did actually "suck", wouldn't it do so equally in all directions and hence the net effect would be zero anyway?  Hmm...lol
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Re: Inquiries about Flat Earth theory of the firmament.
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2020, 09:01:47 PM »
A nice video from a balloon ascent was release not too long ago ... I forget the name of the channel, but remember the balloon was nicknamed MAGE.

There’s a link to the full video footage in reply#4 above. The channel is Mr Sensible.
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.