Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« on: March 21, 2020, 11:45:22 PM »
Hi everybody,
for you enjoyment I bring you a picture which shows the daylight/nighttime distribution across earth's surface. The distribution shown occurs when it is exactly noon in Greenwich, UK (0 deg longitude) on the day of the spring equinox. I could have picked any other time on the day of the equinox - my choice was noon at Greenwich. My plotting software was not quite good enough with labeling the latitudes. In my picture 0 deg is at the North Pole, 90 deg at the equator and 180 deg in the Antarctic. Similar with the longitude, instead of east and west of Greenwich mine goes from 0 deg to 360 deg when circling the North Pole going east.

Of course, you can check this all out. Look up the times of sunrise and sunset for any city you desire which gives you approximate 12 hours of daylight. Also check out that for any two (or more) cities located at the same longitude sunrise occurs at the same time and so do their sunsets. Best is if you get all your times in terms of GMT to avoid trouble with the time zones. Also, most places on the internet and printed media define daylight as beginning and ending when the upper rim of the sun appears to coincides with the horizon adding a couple of minutes of daylight to what you get, as I did, when the center of the sun hits the horizon.

Two question arise.

1. Where is the sun located when it is noon on the day of equinox in Greenwich when everybody on the red and green line views the sun being exactly straight to the right in the picture ? Shouldn't it be exactly above the equator and south of Greenwich as I indicated ? But nobody, except those living at 0 deg longitude, looks that direction at sunrise/sunset.

2. What is the mechanism by which the sun divides the flat earth exactly in half along a perfectly straight line (Which we won't see again until the next equinox). Take into account the fact that the sun is approximately spherical radiating light in all directions like a light bulb ?

« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 03:38:29 AM by Zack Bimmel »

*

Offline GreatATuin

  • *
  • Posts: 310
  • It's turtles all the way down
    • View Profile
Re: Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2020, 10:17:20 PM »
On a map that looks like the polar azimuthal equidistant projection, which seems to be the hypothesis you're working with, it actually looks even worse around the December solstice:



(gif taken from this site)

See this exact time for example: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?iso=20211221T0845

Sun at zenith above Madagascar, day in Ushuaia as well as in all of Australia, night in North America, night anywhere north of the 68th parallel. Not easy to explain in a FE model.
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10171
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2020, 05:08:01 AM »
There is an equinox article in the Wiki.

See the links at the end of https://wiki.tfes.org/Sunrise_and_Sunset

*

Offline GreatATuin

  • *
  • Posts: 310
  • It's turtles all the way down
    • View Profile
Re: Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2020, 08:30:23 AM »
There is an equinox article in the Wiki.

See the links at the end of https://wiki.tfes.org/Sunrise_and_Sunset

They offer no explanation on how the Sun's light could create such strange shapes on a flat Earth.
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read

Re: Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2020, 10:08:01 AM »
There is an equinox article in the Wiki.

See the links at the end of https://wiki.tfes.org/Sunrise_and_Sunset

The link states "The sun that we see is a projection on the atmolayer. Its image is close to the earth". From this sentence a reader will conclude that pages like https://wiki.tfes.org/Distance_to_the_Sun don't refer to the actual Sun, but to the distance to the projection on the atmolayer. It should be specified in the latter pages.
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10171
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2020, 02:30:10 PM »
There is an equinox article in the Wiki.

See the links at the end of https://wiki.tfes.org/Sunrise_and_Sunset

They offer no explanation on how the Sun's light could create such strange shapes on a flat Earth.

The animation you posted shows that the discrepancy is the southern midnight sun that wraps around the Earth. That takes us to Antarctica, where all the information comes from the government, and is not necessarily the best source of information.

Alternatively, the southern midnight sun is possible in the bipolar model.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 02:31:43 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline GreatATuin

  • *
  • Posts: 310
  • It's turtles all the way down
    • View Profile
Re: Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2020, 03:25:28 PM »
There is an equinox article in the Wiki.

See the links at the end of https://wiki.tfes.org/Sunrise_and_Sunset

They offer no explanation on how the Sun's light could create such strange shapes on a flat Earth.

The animation you posted shows that the discrepancy is the southern midnight sun that wraps around the Earth. That takes us to Antarctica, where all the information comes from the government, and is not necessarily the best source of information.

You don't even need to go that far to find a discrepancy. Draw a line from Sydney to Ushuaia (daytime in both cities). The line crosses parts of the world in North America that can't see the Sun at this time. How does the light of the Sun create a concave shape?

Quote

Alternatively, the southern midnight sun is possible in the bipolar model.


Cherry-picking, how convenient. Also, the bipolar model basically assumes the Pacific Ocean is a hoax.

Round earth doesn't need a different model for each observation.
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read

Offline ChrisTP

  • *
  • Posts: 926
    • View Profile
Re: Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2020, 11:52:24 PM »
Quote
That takes us to Antarctica, where all the information comes from the government, and is not necessarily the best source of information.
And you know, all the tourists who aren't with a government but yea sure everyone who's been to Antartica must be government, OK Tom, let's assume that stupid statement is not stupid, your personal mistrust in all governments of the world isn't evidence of bad sources of information and if it were then you really need to stop cherrypicking articles and papers from government bodies as evidence for flat earth, which is pretty much most of the wiki you helped to write up.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10171
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2020, 05:26:50 PM »
Quote
That takes us to Antarctica, where all the information comes from the government, and is not necessarily the best source of information.
And you know, all the tourists who aren't with a government but yea sure everyone who's been to Antartica must be government, OK Tom, let's assume that stupid statement is not stupid, your personal mistrust in all governments of the world isn't evidence of bad sources of information and if it were then you really need to stop cherrypicking articles and papers from government bodies as evidence for flat earth, which is pretty much most of the wiki you helped to write up.

The Monopole Model answer is that the government has a ban on independent travel below the 60th parallel. If there are tourist observations of the midnight sun, it hasn't been documented by those tourists. It is also possible that the sun lights up the ice crystals in the atmosphere around the Earth when it touches that area, and while a perpetual day may exists of some kind, it is not the geometric midnight sun.

The Bi-Polar Model answer is that the southern midnight sun exists, and that the Flat Earth model has had two poles since the early 1900's and stop using the 1800's Monopole model. The Bi-Polar model has always been my preference, FYI.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 05:38:53 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline GreatATuin

  • *
  • Posts: 310
  • It's turtles all the way down
    • View Profile
Re: Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2020, 07:23:20 PM »
The Bi-Polar Model answer is that the southern midnight sun exists, and that the Flat Earth model has had two poles since the early 1900's and stop using the 1800's Monopole model. The Bi-Polar model has always been my preference, FYI.

The 2011 Sendai earthquake, east of Japan, triggered a tsunami that hit Hawaii and California. I have yet to see a bipolar model compatible with that fact.
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10171
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2020, 11:42:48 PM »
The Monopole model continues to be useful for conceptual reasons. The diagram in the OP can be explained as result of the latitude lines being curved.

A circular area of sunlight would imply that the Sun rises at different times for different observers located on a longitude line which radiates outwards from the North. Yet, we know that the Sun rises from at the same time for all observers on the same longitude line simultaneously. A direct interpretation of RE to an FE Monopole model with straight radial longitude lines would show the following for equinox:



The answer to this is that the longitude lines were historically determined in relationship to the time of day. Applying the original interpretation of longitude to a Flat Earth Monopole Model with a curved area of daylight would show that the longitude lines, and time zones, are curved.

Flat Earth Monopole Timezone Map:
 

The points in a line radial from the North are not necessarily on the same longitude line. If longitude is defined by time and the time zones then sunrise can occur for all observers simultaneously on the same longitude.

See any history on the origin and determination of the Longitude. On the 'History of longitude' Wikipedia article, under the section Time equals longitude, it states "there is a direct relationship between time and longitude".

The Bi-Polar Model answer is that the southern midnight sun exists, and that the Flat Earth model has had two poles since the early 1900's and stop using the 1800's Monopole model. The Bi-Polar model has always been my preference, FYI.

The 2011 Sendai earthquake, east of Japan, triggered a tsunami that hit Hawaii and California. I have yet to see a bipolar model compatible with that fact.

Wind and water currents at large scales can be curved, curving on their own or wrapping around continental features.



Not a lot of straight lines there.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 04:52:52 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline GreatATuin

  • *
  • Posts: 310
  • It's turtles all the way down
    • View Profile
Re: Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2020, 07:21:47 AM »
The Monopole model continues to be useful for conceptual reasons. The diagram in the OP can be explained as result of the latitude lines being curved.

Which conceptual reasons? The monopole and bipolar models are mutually incompatible. The Earth cannot be both a bipole and a monopole, no more than it can be both flat and round. You cannot use one of these models and apply your results to the other.

Quote
Quote
The 2011 Sendai earthquake, east of Japan, triggered a tsunami that hit Hawaii and California. I have yet to see a bipolar model compatible with that fact.

Wind and water currents at large scales can be curved, curving on their own or wrapping around continental features.

Not a lot of straight lines there.

A tsunami is not a wind or a current. It's a series of waves.
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read

Re: Equinox - daylight/nighttime across earth
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2020, 08:33:05 PM »
If the Bi-polar Model is Tom's preference (Post 30 March) we might finally be getting somewhere in developing common ground between the FE/RE Camps.  I know the FE's have some difficulties agreeing a definitive version, but lets consider the most commonly seen proposal (centered roughly on Africa);

1.  It shows continents in a relationship which many RE'ers would recognise. 
2.  It includes an Antarctic continent.  We know that exists because, as well as government agencies, Michael Palin has been there (Pole to Pole, Palin, BBC Books, 1992).  And no-one is going to accuse one-half-of-the-Dead-Parrot-Sketch of being a government patsy.  And yes, there was midnight sun, it was December. 
3.  It includes, by definition, a South Pole. 

An anomaly with the Bi-Polar where we struggle to bring the Roundies on-board is the relationship between the extreme East and West sides of the map.  The Eastern Pacific is shown at the extreme left (West) and the Western Pacific vice versa.  This is highlights a number of issues;

4.   Pacific Ocean currents, helpfully illustrated by Tom in a Post later the same day (on a Mercator Projection?).  Tom's illustration of the contra-rotating Northern and Southern Pacific currents/drifts seems incompatible with the bi-polar model. 
5.   Trans-Pacific travel.    A trans-pacific flight from Chile to Australia, for instance, would not seem feasible.  QED; see the recent Flat Earth Theory Topic "Are plane tickets real?".  Please read that thread before disputing it. 

What might be accepted by both camps:  Print a Bi-Polar map on an A3-sized sheet of thin latex.  Now s-t-r-e-t-c-h this around a basketball so that the left and right sides of the map meet on the "dark-side" of the Earth, sorry, basketball. 

Voila!