[MCToon]

Yeah, that's reasonable.  How about using local noon on the equator on the equinox and the time it happens to layout continents on the equator?  This would place Africa, South America, Indonesia and a few islands.

This would also require first accepting that the sun's speed on the equator on the equinox is constant.  I doubt there will be any argument about this as a true observation.  It is simple, easy to understand, easy to verify, and non-contentious.  I'll add to the list, if anyone thinks this is untrue, please discuss. 

1. On the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. On the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. On the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4. On the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth, except for the polar regions.
5. For all points in northern latitudes, when looking due north observers see the northern pole star, Polaris.  In the north polar region observers will see this by looking nearly directly up.
6. For all points in southern latitudes, when looking due south observers see the Southern Cross constellation.  In the south polar region observers will see this by looking nearly directly up.
7. On the equinox the sun travels at a constant speed across the sky when observed from the equator.


Supporting evidence is that there are numerous freely available web sites to have accurately been predicting sun time and locations for many years.  These sites predict future times and locations for the sun on the equator that match these observations.  Discussions about the legitimacy of these sources is welcome on this other thread: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=10818.0

Again it sounds like you are making a map of the sky here. I'm not interested in what we can expect to see in the sky 100 miles south of my current location. I'm interested in what country/city/state/continent/mountain/lake/ocean is 100 miles south of here.

In addition you are making claims that many flat earth models would have significant problems with. You are exposing your self to nit picking ad infinitum while making no progress on creating an actual map of the earth. Maybe you should start a new thread and call it map of the sky for different positions at different times of year on earth.

I have seen nobody claiming these observations are untrue, though I have been asking.  Please bring on the claims of untrue, I want to be sure these are true.

I think this is pretty good progress:
* In order to match these real world observations, the equator must be straight east-west.
* We can use sun position at local noon to place the continents on the map.
* We have discussed the accuracy of publicly available mapping services to place intra-continent locations, this expands the continents a great deal north and south of the equator before mapping software accuracy can be cast to doubt.
* We have discussed long flights to give rough distances between major cities.  This only gives a min and max straight line distance though so is only useful for crude placements.

Now, we need to identify observations that can guide in more accurate placement of farther northern and southern locations.  Does local noon on the tropic of cancer of capricorn help?  I don't know.  Anybody have thoughts on these?

[iamcpc]

I have seen nobody claiming these observations are untrue, though I have been asking.  Please bring on the claims of untrue, I want to be sure these are true.

Well the flat earth model that i most closely relate to does not have an issue with those observations. The people who believe in the more "traditional" flat earth models with domes, ice walls, firmaments etc. are not replying.

If they were to provide observations it would be something like "there is a great ice wall around the perimeter of the earth

[MCToon]

I have seen nobody claiming these observations are untrue, though I have been asking.  Please bring on the claims of untrue, I want to be sure these are true.

Well the flat earth model that i most closely relate to does not have an issue with those observations. The people who believe in the more "traditional" flat earth models with domes, ice walls, firmaments etc. are not replying.

If they were to provide observations it would be something like "there is a great ice wall around the perimeter of the earth

I am confused by the lack of participation by regular contributors to produce an FE map that matches observations.  It's a glaring omission that there is no working map.  To me it's task #1 and shouldn't be too difficult.  A flat map with no distortions of the flat earth is possible.

Since there is global transportation that is reliable and predictable, someone must have the map to handle this transportation.  The software pilots use to plot courses have to internally transpose to the real map.  This map is absolutely known.  We just need to figure it out.

The other attempts at a flat map were sloppy and didn't even test against observations.  For example, I see that Limitless and Awake Souls recently put out a map, it's terrible, I don't understand how they thought it was accurate.

[Tom Bishop]

To me it's task #1 and shouldn't be too difficult.

Then, please, as a kind request, go out and map the world for us and tell us how it matches up with current models, without making any unproven assumptions about the world, since you have identified this as such a trivial matter.

[iamcpc]

To me it's task #1 and shouldn't be too difficult.

Then, please, as a kind request, go out and map the world for us and tell us how it matches up with current models, without making any unproven assumptions about the world, since you have identified this as such a trivial matter.

1.
A valid point. We have been discussing this at length for several days now and we have mapped about 0% of the earth. Based on my observations and experiences I can comfortably corroborate known maps of sections of the earth like North and South America.


2.
Tom, he is making some observations before he is going to start making the map. He wants to make observations that are universally (more or less) accepted as true among the flat earth community. I most closely relate to a rather unorthodox flat earth model. He is trying to ask people most closely relate to other flat earth models if they have any objections about these observations (and if so why). I have continuously made the objection that sun observations are a flimsy way to lay down a framework of map observations.

Do you have any objections to the "framework" observations made before starting the map making process? Or do you believe that these are unproven observations?


1. On the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. On the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. On the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4. On the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth, except for the polar regions.
5. For all points in northern latitudes, when looking due north observers see the northern pole star, Polaris.  In the north polar region observers will see this by looking nearly directly up.
6. For all points in southern latitudes, when looking due south observers see the Southern Cross constellation.  In the south polar region observers will see this by looking nearly directly up.
7. On the equinox the sun travels at a constant speed across the sky when observed from the equator.

[Dr Van Nostrand]

To me it's task #1 and shouldn't be too difficult.

Then, please, as a kind request, go out and map the world for us and tell us how it matches up with current models, without making any unproven assumptions about the world, since you have identified this as such a trivial matter.

This is an issue that has been mentioned before. How does one map the world using only personal empirical observations?

If the Zetetic Council had unlimited resources, what methodology would they use to map the world?

[inquisitive]

To me it's task #1 and shouldn't be too difficult.

Then, please, as a kind request, go out and map the world for us and tell us how it matches up with current models, without making any unproven assumptions about the world, since you have identified this as such a trivial matter.

Do you have any reason to disagree with WGS84?  As requested before how would you produce a map of the world?

[AATW]

To me it's task #1 and shouldn't be too difficult.

Then, please, as a kind request, go out and map the world for us and tell us how it matches up with current models, without making any unproven assumptions about the world, since you have identified this as such a trivial matter.

But that has already been done. The world has been mapped and, guess what? It turns out it matches with a globe model. The fact that the worldwide shipping and airline industries get people and goods around reliably gives confidence in that model.
There is no flat earth map which matches with things like flight times and known distances between places. And that is because...the world isn’t flat.

[RonJ]

I can definitely say that the earth is spherical based on my personal observations.  Before I retired I had a career in the Merchant Marine.  I've made countless trips all over the world.  In the last 4 years those trips were mostly between the US and China. Every trip we made I had to change our satellite communications equipment to a different satellite because the other one would go below the horizon and I would loose the signal.  Our radars would only work out to about 20 miles because even other huge ships would go below the horizon.  We still knew they were there because of the other tracking equipment we had.  Thousands of times, you could see a large ship, that you knew was coming, appear slowly over the horizon.  Sometimes we would have to communicate so we didn't collide. I know for sure how many miles we traveled between Shanghai, China and Long Beach, Ca.  Those miles were based upon a great circle route.  We even had a 'top of the world' party when we stopped going North and started going towards the South on our return trip to home.  A flat earth would have been a whole lot easier, but it was not to be. People say that going to sea is the worlds second oldest profession so maybe everything I've said could be considered a 'Sea Story'.

[MCToon]

To me it's task #1 and shouldn't be too difficult.

Then, please, as a kind request, go out and map the world for us and tell us how it matches up with current models, without making any unproven assumptions about the world, since you have identified this as such a trivial matter.

You are saying you would accept my personal observations, thanks for the vote of confidence.  Unfortunately, I'm not outfitted to do this, neither am I skilled in these mapping skills.  People other than myself have already done this, will you accept their mappings and data in lieu of mine?

For now, I'll continue in this interesting project.

You are correct, unproven assumptions are to be avoided.  That's why I have chosen things that are well documented.  I have also carefully selected things that are easily verifiable for anyone that doesn't trust the source of the documentation.  The documentation I have used is freely available on suncalc.org, timeanddate.com, and Stellarium.  However, I'm always open to input.  If you don't think the observations are accurate, please bring it up.  I've asked before and you have not stated that you think these are inaccurate.  I'll keep you marked as in agreement with the accuracy of the observations.

Update: I'm starting on a map using the below observations as guidance.

To review:

Current list of observations:
1. On the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. On the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. On the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4. On the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth, except for the polar regions.
5. For all points in northern latitudes, when looking due north observers see the northern pole star, Polaris.  In the north polar region observers will see this by looking nearly directly up.
6. For all points in southern latitudes, when looking due south observers see the Southern Cross constellation.  In the south polar region observers will see this by looking nearly directly up.
7. On the equinox the sun travels at a constant speed across the sky when observed from the equator.

Corollaries for Observation #1
a. Before sunset in Aranuka island in Kiribati the sun has risen in Ganggo Hilia, Indonesia.
b. Before sunset in Ganggo Hilia, Indonesia the sun has risen in Nanyuki, Kenya.
c. Before sunset in Nanyuki, Kenya the sun has risen in Macapá, Brazil.
d. Before sunset in Macapá, Brazil the sun has risen in Quitsato Monument, Ecuador.
e. Before sunset in Quitsato Monument, Ecuador, the sun has risen in Aranuka island in Kiribati.

[MCToon]

I can definitely say that the earth is spherical based on my personal observations.  Before I retired I had a career in the Merchant Marine.  I've made countless trips all over the world.  In the last 4 years those trips were mostly between the US and China. Every trip we made I had to change our satellite communications equipment to a different satellite because the other one would go below the horizon and I would loose the signal.  Our radars would only work out to about 20 miles because even other huge ships would go below the horizon.  We still knew they were there because of the other tracking equipment we had.  Thousands of times, you could see a large ship, that you knew was coming, appear slowly over the horizon.  Sometimes we would have to communicate so we didn't collide. I know for sure how many miles we traveled between Shanghai, China and Long Beach, Ca.  Those miles were based upon a great circle route.  We even had a 'top of the world' party when we stopped going North and started going towards the South on our return trip to home.  A flat earth would have been a whole lot easier, but it was not to be. People say that going to sea is the worlds second oldest profession so maybe everything I've said could be considered a 'Sea Story'.

Thank you, RonJ.  I appreciate your addition.

In this thread we are attempting to collect observations that are simple, easy to understand, easy to verify, and non-contentious.  The observations will then be used to lay out a flat map.  All are welcome to participate regardless of their opinion of the roundness or flatness of the earth.  For yourself, consider it a fun thought-experiment.