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Messages - DuncanDoenitz

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21
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 26, 2022, 12:42:14 PM »
In-flight diversions are a lot more complex than just diverting to the ‘nearest airport’, as some (including the author of that ‘book’) seem to think.

Most international airlines use a service based in Phoenix, AZ called MedLink MedAire. This is a 24/7 operation staffed by ER doctors which is the first port of call for aircraft in the air when there’s a sick passenger.
They will advise the airline on the best course of action.
Factors that need to be considered in choosing a diversion airport:
•   If it’s a medical diversion, is the patient stable? Is it every second counts?
•   Medical care facilities at the airport, and wider area
•   Runway length, runway strength, taxiway strength, anticipated aircraft landing weight
•   Weather now and forecast
•   Air traffic control provision
•   Airport fire fighting and rescue cover
•   Fuel and aircraft servicing provision (hydraulic fuel, lubricants, steps to reach the aircraft, baggage facilities, towing capability)
•   Does the airline have contracts in place with companies at the proposed diversion airport?
•   Engineer/mechanic provision
•   Flight crew duty hours
•   Relief crew position
•   Passenger services (immigration/customs)
•   Accommodation for crew and passengers
•   Distance from aircraft (to be comfortable for passengers, most airliners require about 10nm for every 3000ft of altitude. The descent rate could be increased somewhat if it was an emergency, but you’re still talking nearly 100nm from 35,000ft).
•   Passengers on board (do they need visas to land at proposed diversion? Will they be kept on board for hours while the situation is sorted out?).
•   Are there vulnerable passengers on board (i.e. people whom one country would be very keen to get their hands on? (for example the relatively recent incident over Belarus)) .
•   Political concerns (i.e. A US flight might go another 20-30nm to avoid diverting to Iran and making it to UAE).
These are factors I have just come up with, and no doubt there are many more to be considered.

To second guess why a crew made a decision to divert to a particular airport with no knowledge of most of these factors (as the 'book' does) is naive in the extreme.

Happy to answer any questions on the above, if I can!

You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
You've completely failed to comprehend Gonzo's list. This is not a "bunch of reasons why a flight might be diverted".  It's a (non-exhaustive) list of factors that an aircraft commander must consider when deciding which airport he/she should divert to; his point is that it will not necessarily be the nearest, or more obvious to a layman. 

Added to that, a close-to great-circle flightpath, particularly in the northern hemisphere, is not necessarily mutually exclusive with a polar azimuthal flat-world map. 

22
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 21, 2022, 12:46:59 PM »
Pretty odd and desperate rebuttal there. Aeronautics credentials are not required to connect three points on a map.

I guess you can't really rebut the content directly and have to demand aeronautic credentials.  ::)

Correct, and even an Air Transport Pilot's Licence holder can probably point and shoot at a wedding, so I guess we are agreed that no one needs any particular skill to do anything.  (Thank God for the internet). 

Of course, in addition to a rudimentary knowledge of geometry, it would probably be an advantage to know which 3 dots have to be connected, what areas need to be avoided, and what other dots are available if one of the original dots gets deleted.   

23
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 19, 2022, 09:12:43 PM »
If you've got to be spoon fed, you could start by opening the open-source Marinetraffic.com (Jomples gave you a link if you have problems with the internet) and search the vessel Hyundai Jakarta.  A data window will open, giving its alleged voyage details.  Then do some maths.

So you just assumed a bunch of things and claimed it to be fact, and don't actually have data for us. I see.

Read what I wrote,, and dispute the facts.

What facts? You provided no sources or links for which we can get log information from.

All of the log data is available if you have an account.

Hundai Jakarta





A path across three degrees proves this? Where are the full logs?


You have me sunk, Tom.  I assumed that the ship exists, that it sailed from Chennai and will arrive in Sao Paolo tomorrow.  Naivety on my part. 

As a counter argument, how do you propose that the containers are getting to South America?

24
My understanding has always been that Tomahawk navigates by Terrain Profile Matching, in which case it could navigate with equal ease on a flat, globe or banana shaped world, as long as it has contour map data for the terrain below its course. 

In other words, it navigates just the way you and I drive; by ascertaining our current position, comparing with desired position, and producing an error signal.  We don't drive to the end of the street on a specific heading for a specific distance and turn left; we drive down the street, monitoring where we are in relation to the kerb and white lines until we reach the stop sign, then turn left, maintaining road position etc.  We can navigate this way, using small scale maps, over any distance.  Tomahawk does just the same, using terrain contours as a datum.  It is only ever interested in, and bases its spatial awareness on, the terrain immediately below it.

I see zero sources on how it works to use a FE model on an RE, just "your understanding".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_(missile)#Navigation

". . . Based on comparison results the missile's inertial navigation system is updated and the missile corrects its course . . ."

It flies at low level, and only looks at the terrain immediately surrounding it.  At least, that's my understanding of reading this. 

25
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 19, 2022, 08:02:08 PM »
If you've got to be spoon fed, you could start by opening the open-source Marinetraffic.com (Jomples gave you a link if you have problems with the internet) and search the vessel Hyundai Jakarta.  A data window will open, giving its alleged voyage details.  Then do some maths. 

26
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 19, 2022, 07:32:39 PM »
Read what I wrote,, and dispute the facts. 

27
My understanding has always been that Tomahawk navigates by Terrain Profile Matching, in which case it could navigate with equal ease on a flat, globe or banana shaped world, as long as it has contour map data for the terrain below its course. 

In other words, it navigates just the way you and I drive; by ascertaining our current position, comparing with desired position, and producing an error signal.  We don't drive to the end of the street on a specific heading for a specific distance and turn left; we drive down the street, monitoring where we are in relation to the kerb and white lines until we reach the stop sign, then turn left, maintaining road position etc.  We can navigate this way, using small scale maps, over any distance.  Tomahawk does just the same, using terrain contours as a datum.  It is only ever interested in, and bases its spatial awareness on, the terrain immediately below it. 

28
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 19, 2022, 07:10:47 PM »
Jomple's "multicolored ships" are real, steel ships, with crews and commercial cargo on them; real things getting transported places.  Its a Mercator projection because that's what fits conveniently on a computer screen.  It obviously isn't to scale, because its a projection. 

I invite you to look again at Marine Traffic.  Lets take the container ship Hundai Jakarta.  (hint; its a green ship).  It is currently about 300km south east of its destination, the port of Santos, Sao Paolo, Brazil, where it anticipates arriving in the early hours of tomorrow (Brazil time), having transited the South Atlantic.  It left Kattupalli, Chennai, India at 18.06 local time on 26 Feb 2022.  Its current speed over ground is 13.6 kts on a course of 296 deg.  If that were its average speed, it would travel 326 NM per day, or 605 km per day.  I just measured the global distances for a typical great-circle journey down the east coast of India, around Sri Lanka, around the cape of Good Hope to Santos as slightly over 15000 km.  At 605 km per day that would give a voyage time of 24 days.  Actual voyage time seems to be around 22 days, which I think is pretty close, considering that we only did the math based on its current speed.  Someone like RonJ could probably advise us better. 

So; what have we got.  Real ship, actual speed, actual distance, voyage time seem to marry up.  Alternatives we could explore:

1.   Ship doesn't exist. 
2.   Ship did not leave India on the date stated. 
3.   The "Winds That Must Not Be Named".  (Note that the South Atlantic is actually bursting at the seams with red and green ships sailing both East and West.  Some wind). 
4.   Disc World; of course, for this to work, we would need know the distance on a flat map. 

29
A video of a flight from Santiago to Sydney taken by a flat earther, wielding a compass he clearly doesn't understand, is linked to in the wiki as evidence of the earth being flat.
Ha. Nice.
It is interesting how this conversation has gone. It starts with a FE person demanding we look in to flight routes between two pairs of specific cities. When it’s patiently explained that there aren’t direct flights between any two arbitrary cities because of demand and hub-spoke models the FE person says he picked those pairs of cities because of the distance. He then challenges us to find a pair of cities further apart and when that’s done and a video review of someone taking that flight is provided it’s simply implied that could be fake. The logic contradictions and goalpost shifting are bewildering

I picked the two furthest flight routes on a Flat Earth map. But on a Globe Earth map they are quite short (12,000km and 12,500km). The fact that there are no direct flights is part of my point.

I then proved that even the shortest flights available travel the longest way possible on a Round Earth map and quite efficiently on a Flat Earth map.

The target has never moved. I asked you to find me a flight I can book.

If you can't understand what I have done then that's evidence that your faith in a round earth is grounded in nothing other than blind belief as you are unable to even conceptualise in your mind basic contrasts between how flight routes on a Flat Earth vs Round Earth should behave.
No response to my Reply#36?  I presented a 15000km flight from Buenos Aires to Darwin, which trumps your 12500km.  A flight which actually occurred, non-stop, in 2021, by an Antarctic route. 

What, can't book it?  Perhaps if you're not interested in other peoples answers you may be asking the wrong question. 


30
Hand-held compasses don't work in an aircraft; the fuselage is a big faraday cage, only with added RF electromagnetic interference.   An aircraft's compass-detector is located remotely on a wingtip or in the tail.  We aren't even allowed to use ferrous screws in the mountings.  They are so sensitive that when we set them up (a "compass swing"), the operator has to divest himself of all metalwork like phone, watch, jewellery.   

Some aircraft still have a standby compass mounted in the cockpit for emergency use, but it is calibrated to only be accurate with basic essential electrical systems operating.  Switching on windshield deice, for instance, will typically introduce a 50 degree error.

31
Again, as others have mentioned, airlines are only going to provide direct services if there is sufficient demand, hence, you want to go from Perth to Buenos Aires you'll probably have to take a route from Perth to the middle east (which is a popular route), then on to BA (another popular route).  Its like I can't get a bus from Town A to Town B; I have to get a bus from Town A to City C, then another bus from City C to Town B. 

However (and its a big however), take a look at this:

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-repatriation-flight-lands-in-history-books/#:~:text=A%20record%20breaking%20repatriation%20flight,25%20minutes%20in%20the%20air.

Whilst Covid was most rampant, the Australian government was going to great lengths to repatriate its citizens who were stranded abroad.  One such group of 107 Australian citizens was identified in-and-around Buenos Aires, so the government chartered Qantas to pick them up and bring them home.  They sent one of their 787 Dreamliners.  It flew as QF14 in October 2021 and took around 17hrs 25min.  The flight was complicated in some respects because it could not land at the nearest Australian airport; it had to fly direct to Darwin, which is the location of Australia's immigration and isolation unit, a distance of 15000km.  Because of the relatively low pax load they could carry maximum fuel, so did it non-stop. 

You can see that the flight went south from BA, across part of Antarctica, and north to Darwin, just like the theoretical Great Circle.  It should also be fairly apparent from the chart that, if the destination had been Perth, it would have been a similar distance/time. 



32
Flat Earth Theory / Re: What does the government gain from a cover-up?
« on: March 15, 2022, 09:00:15 AM »
You assume we know what country you are from and so, by implication, which government you are referring to. 

Nevertheless it is a a valid question, which has been posed many times before on this forum.  Opening it up globally makes that even more of a puzzle; what agenda are these counties, all with national space programmes, working to?  Such odd bedfellows as USA, Russia, China and North Korea; India and Pakistan; Israel and Iran? 

All collaborating on perpetuating a myth, apparently.




33
So globesters are blaming FE for Covid and climate change.   

I see. 

34
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Wiki on aviation
« on: March 10, 2022, 08:29:48 AM »
When learning any skill, the syllabus should reduce the number of ancillary variables to the minimum possible in order to teach the particular skill being taught. Learning to drive a road vehicle, the student's first experience will probably be driving around a deserted car park.  This in no way denies the existence of road junctions, motorways, opposing traffic; it merely permits attention to the initial skills of steering, clutch, gear changing and so on. 

As skills are mastered, new variables are introduced until the student learns all the skills necessary, subject to his ability to master them.  The graduate knows of the further existence of trailers, tracked-vehicles, heavy goods vehicles, but only needs to learn those skills if his job or interests require it. 

So with flying; the basic student does not need to consider Earth curvature, so it can be ignored up to the skill and licence required of a private pilot.  This does not deny the existence of intercontinental travel, but global navigation knowledge only becomes necessary if the pilot has the intention, and ability, to pilot himself over global distances. 


35
Sooooo... drifting lazily back towards the OP;

No.  The human body categorically does not have an organ or sensory system to detect movement.  Period. 

Of course we sometimes think we do, based upon misinterpretation of our senses of sound, vision, touch and sense-of-self; interpretations based upon our experiences of such things as we live our lives.   

We see the surroundings moving through a vehicle window.  We hear the tone of an engine changing, and the rush of slipstream.  We feel the pressure of an aircraft seat against our back, or the lateral and vertical accelerations of a train crossing the points.  Our inner-ears detect acceleration.  We feel the pressure of moving air against our face, and the nerves in our scalp give the thrill of wind in our hair. 

If we stand on the Earth while it is moving at constant velocity relative to the Universe; there is no visual perception of movement against the stars, no engine sound, no points, the acceleration as we orbit the sun is imperceptibly small, there is no wind in our hair. 

We cannot perceive movement. 


36
Science & Alternative Science / Re: Size of the Sun
« on: February 20, 2022, 05:02:17 PM »
And why are you comparing areas ("xxx pounds per square foot"; "Sun's area ...")?  You should be comparing volume. 

37
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: February 16, 2022, 05:28:05 PM »
I wouldn't call myself illiterate, Pete, but I'm happy to concede that all this coordinate shenanigans, like GR, is well over my head, which is why I tend to stick to concepts I can get my head around, like carpet.  If that gives you any degree of contentment, then, fine.  It doesn't detract from my self esteem.  I have other attributes, which some find endearing, but I'm glad if we've enhanced your life. 

So the OP claims to have produced a working flat earth model; is it any use?  I have a commemorative plate from the wedding of Prince Charles to Lady Diana Spencer.  Does that mean the Prince of Wales is flat?  No, its just a representation of a 3 dimensional entity (or pair of entities, which some might argue are one-dimensional anyway) on a disc. 

And its actually pretty crappy as a plate.  And his shoulders look distorted. 

So, whad'ya think.  Is it a viable model?

38
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: February 15, 2022, 10:22:00 PM »
You're using a straight ruler. 

Fully working model, but you need a fully working stretchy-bendy ruler. 

39
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: February 13, 2022, 09:14:07 AM »
Fine, but we live in the warehouse.  We can walk around it, climb it, measure it.  Its a warehouse.

40
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: February 12, 2022, 08:36:46 PM »
@Troolon; can we go back around 5 pages to our carpet-fitting business? 

It turns out that we are quite the success story, and we have expanded into carpet production and installation; our factory in the West Midlands of England receives orders from far and wide, including from the Lord Mayor of Hobart, Tasmania, who wants to carpet his office.  We send out a technician to measure-up and (conveniently) he finds the office to be exactly 3m x 4m, with diagonals of 5m, so it's precisely a right-angle rectangle.  Our representative makes a drawing of the office floor and e-mails it to Company HQ. 

Question 1; Hobart is around 42 deg S latitude.  At what point, if at all, should our technician be using bendy rulers or variable-scales to draw his map, because the drawing is, after all, a map? 

The federal Australian government gets to hear about the Lord Mayor's carpet and they are well impressed with the quality, precise manufacture to specified dimensions, and its absolute resistance to stretch and shrinkage.  It can be rolled up, but it is incompatible with curvature in more than one dimension. 

In an effort to brighten up Australia, they decide to cover the complete country in a nice floral pattern axminster.  A rectangular remnant precisely 3000km x 4000km should do it, and extend a little over the coast.  So we manufacture a carpet loom 3000km wide, and use it to produce a carpet 4000km long.  We know it is a precise right-angle rectangle, because the loom is precisely 3000km, and with our top-notch quality control (the technology of which which we can leave someone else to work out) we used it to produce a carpet exactly 4000km long, without any warpage whatever.  We ship it off to Canberra.  (Again, we can leave the logistics to FedEx or whatever). 

So now the Aussies roll it out from Brisbane towards the West. 

Question 2; How does it look?  Is it wrinkled at the edges?  Is there a ridge over Melbourne? If we push it down over Victoria, does it leave a gap over Sydney?

Perhaps it lies perfectly flat; no gaps.  We have proven that the Earth is flat, or cylindrical, or a cone, or a pyramid or some-such.  We possibly don't know which, but we have completely refuted the idea that the world is spherical, or shaped like Angela Merkel.  If we continue to identify what shapes it isn't, eventually we will know what shape it is. 

Confession time; unbelievably, the above story is not true.  (We went bust in the first year; the clever money, apparently, is in laminate).  The point though, is that as a thought experiment it is true.  If we did it, either the carpet would lie flat, or it wouldn't.  It can't do both.  It would falsify one part of the argument. 

Your contention that we cannot know the shape of anything is a nonsense.  Its not just about the maths.  The Earth, like our fictional carpet, is an entity with fixed dimensions.  If we measure it enough ways, using a constant metric against entities who's size we know, we can know its shape or, at the very least, identify what shape it isn't. 

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