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Offline Tau

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Re: The earth is round
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2014, 07:22:01 PM »
You claim that he was forced to say he went to space, or that he was tricked.  Do you have any proof?   ???

It's a simple process of deduction. He claims to have gone into space. One cannot actually go into space. Therefore, he is lying. Why is he lying? Well, he had a long phone call with a prominent world leader who was associated with the NASA conspiracy. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that he was in some way influenced by the conspiracy. Perhaps they threatened his family. Perhaps they offered him money. Perhaps they knew about what he did that time in Thailand. We can only speculate.

Bad premises in here. There is evidence you can go in to space. If a premises is false so is the conclusion.

Petitio principii. You're saying that people who claim to go into space must be telling the truth because people claim to go into space, and those people must be telling the truth because people claim to go into space?

Evidence shows that the Earth is flat. If the Earth is flat, spaceflight must be impossible. Ispo facto, spaceflight is impossible and supposed astronauts are simply lying.

Shuttleworth is very rich.  I wonder what the incentive is for him to lie. 

He has a family and the conspiracy has guns. It is also possible that he committed some crime or scandalous action and that the conspiracy used it to put pressure on him. Maybe they even threatened to destroy his company. Rich and important men are the easiest to manipulate.
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Offline Socker

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Re: The earth is round
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2014, 07:45:32 AM »
You can argue that pictures are not real, but even without them RET has more evidence than wild speculation, which is all this thread can come up with regards to FET. Does anyone have any actual evidence that this Ubuntu guy was influenced by NASA, other than the fact that he had a conversation with them? Anyone can wildly speculate. I think he was called by NASA because they were looking to upgrade the OS of the International Space Station. It was already upgraded from Windows to Linux, surely the next logical step would be Ubuntu? That is how you guys take a tiny piece of evidence, and twist it so it matches your theory.

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Offline Scientific Method

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Re: The earth is round
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2014, 11:28:31 AM »
Evidence shows that the Earth is flat.

What evidence?

This? (from a Bedford level experiment, signed off as correct by a FE representative)

Hmm, no...

Perhaps this one? (also from a Bedford level experiment, also signed off as correct by a FE representative)

No, not that one either...

I know!

No, that's no good either...

Solar eclipses? Lunar eclipses? Flights from YSSY to KLAX? Midnight sun at the Amundsen-Scott station (for 6 months)? Cyclones and hurricanes? Tides? Coriolis corrections for artillery? The ISS (visible with a good telescope)?

No wonder so few people take the FEH seriously...
Look out your window. Better yet, get up and go outside for a while.

Rama Set

Re: The earth is round
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2014, 01:03:29 PM »
You claim that he was forced to say he went to space, or that he was tricked.  Do you have any proof?   ???

It's a simple process of deduction. He claims to have gone into space. One cannot actually go into space. Therefore, he is lying. Why is he lying? Well, he had a long phone call with a prominent world leader who was associated with the NASA conspiracy. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that he was in some way influenced by the conspiracy. Perhaps they threatened his family. Perhaps they offered him money. Perhaps they knew about what he did that time in Thailand. We can only speculate.

Bad premises in here. There is evidence you can go in to space. If a premises is false so is the conclusion.

Petitio principii. You're saying that people who claim to go into space must be telling the truth because people claim to go into space, and those people must be telling the truth because people claim to go into space?

No that is not what I am saying. I have previously mentioned independent methods of confirming space travel. However, you are just asserting space travel is impossible with no evidence.

Quote
Evidence shows that the Earth is flat. If the Earth is flat, spaceflight must be impossible. Ispo facto, spaceflight is impossible and supposed astronauts are simply lying.

You clarified a bad argument with a bad argument. The Earth being flat does not automatically preclude space flight being possible so your conclusion does not follow.




Re: The earth is round
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2014, 02:00:46 PM »
You claim that he was forced to say he went to space, or that he was tricked.  Do you have any proof?   ???

It's a simple process of deduction. He claims to have gone into space. One cannot actually go into space. Therefore, he is lying. Why is he lying? Well, he had a long phone call with a prominent world leader who was associated with the NASA conspiracy. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that he was in some way influenced by the conspiracy. Perhaps they threatened his family. Perhaps they offered him money. Perhaps they knew about what he did that time in Thailand. We can only speculate.

Bad premises in here. There is evidence you can go in to space. If a premises is false so is the conclusion.

Petitio principii. You're saying that people who claim to go into space must be telling the truth because people claim to go into space, and those people must be telling the truth because people claim to go into space?

No that is not what I am saying. I have previously mentioned independent methods of confirming space travel. However, you are just asserting space travel is impossible with no evidence.

Quote
Evidence shows that the Earth is flat. If the Earth is flat, spaceflight must be impossible. Ispo facto, spaceflight is impossible and supposed astronauts are simply lying.

You clarified a bad argument with a bad argument. The Earth being flat does not automatically preclude space flight being possible so your conclusion does not follow.

Nor is the implication that it is established that the Earth is flat. That certainly isn't the case unless you deny everything and only consider the weak evidence offered by FE.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: The earth is round
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2014, 02:40:38 PM »
Shuttleworth is very rich.  I wonder what the incentive is for him to lie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStack

"In July 2010 Rackspace Hosting and NASA jointly launched an open-source cloud-software initiative known as OpenStack. The OpenStack project intended to help organizations offer cloud-computing services running on standard hardware. The community's first official release, code-named Austin, appeared four months later, with plans to release regular updates of the software every few months. The early code came from NASA's Nebula platform as well as from Rackspace's Cloud Files platform. In 2011, developers of the Ubuntu Linux distribution decided to adopt OpenStack,[13] with an unsupported technology preview of Bexar for Ubuntu 11.04 "Natty Narwhal". [14] Ubuntu's sponsor Canonical then introduced full support for OpenStack clouds, starting with OpenStack's Cactus release."


Don't you find it odd that Ubuntu would suddenly support something NASA has developed so quickly after it's creation?


It is also a widely known fact that NASA uses a lot of Linux systems. 

Now, Mr. Shuttleworth's (even that sounds suspicious) entire wealth is based on Ubuntu's success.  Right now Ubuntu is just another distro that's bloated.  But what do you think the following news line would do...
"NASA sends men to the moon with Ubuntu!"


By supporting OpenStack, a NASA creation, NASA has a very easy to accept motivation for switching all of their systems from Red Hat to Ubuntu.
Plus...
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/why-ubuntus-creator-still-invests-his-fortune-in-an-unprofitable-company/
"OpenStack, an open source project, was developed by Rackspace and NASA, not Canonical. But OpenStack was built on Ubuntu, making it the software's default operating system."


Oh and..
"Yet "six or seven of the world's biggest telcos currently have Ubuntu OpenStack clouds in operation," Shuttleworth said. Some of them "are on firm commercial terms," and others are "finalizing the terms of an engagement." Even better, these are the same types of companies that could partner with Ubuntu to bring mobile phones to market. "
The man has been pouring money into his company like water because it's not self sufficient.  But now here comes NASA and suddenly he's got his OS in high profile telephone companies which in turn gives him leverage for his Ubuntu phone (which the software is finished and can be deployed on a variety of phones).

So you ask what moviation he would have?  How about saving his company?
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

Offline BillyBob

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Re: The earth is round
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2014, 07:18:16 PM »
Mark Shuttleworth was a millionaire many years before Ubuntu was even a computer term.  He paid to go to space many years before Ubuntu was even on the drawing board. 

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: The earth is round
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2014, 09:39:41 PM »
Mark Shuttleworth was a millionaire many years before Ubuntu was even a computer term.  He paid to go to space many years before Ubuntu was even on the drawing board.
So you're saying that he was bribed with a company and idea?  Maybe even future partnerships?  How interesting...
The conviction will get overturned on appeal.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The earth is round
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2014, 05:52:57 PM »
So far, I have just a few difficulties w/ FET. 1. There is no supported map of the Earth. Both mono- & bi-polar maps present problems. 2. No one can explain how the 'Conspiracy' was maintained before spaceflight. 3. No one can tell me why anyone would want to start such a conspiracy in the 1st place! 4. The 'science' of FET seems fuzzy @ best. I'm by no means a mathematician or a scientist, but it seems that FET has to resort to a lot of excessive round-aboutism, if you will. 5. An example of this is: what is the Ice Wall? There are several answers offered, none definitive. 6. Who guarded said Wall before NASA existed, & why? So, those questions are just for starters. Any thoughts, from both sides? 

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: The earth is round
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2014, 12:00:10 AM »
So far, I have just a few difficulties w/ FET. 1. There is no supported map of the Earth. Both mono- & bi-polar maps present problems. 2. No one can explain how the 'Conspiracy' was maintained before spaceflight. 3. No one can tell me why anyone would want to start such a conspiracy in the 1st place! 4. The 'science' of FET seems fuzzy @ best. I'm by no means a mathematician or a scientist, but it seems that FET has to resort to a lot of excessive round-aboutism, if you will. 5. An example of this is: what is the Ice Wall? There are several answers offered, none definitive. 6. Who guarded said Wall before NASA existed, & why? So, those questions are just for starters. Any thoughts, from both sides?

I'm not an expert on the conspiracy at all, so I can't help much there.

If we seem round-about or vague, it's because FET is based, largely, on empirical evidence, meaning only that which we can directly observe and measure.   Many of us, myself included, have a hypothesis or two about observable phenomena (Dark Energy, Aether, UA, etc) which venture into the territory of speculation, some more than others, but that's one major reason why there isn't a singular accepted model or map - zeteticism is about ignoring what you're taught or told and focusing on what you know.

Re: the ice wall - this is something of a hypothetical construct.  Though several accounts of the southern hemidisc do support its existence, some of us say that a wall of ice exists but isn't the proper-noun "Ice Wall."  In the monopole model it is theoretically necessary to hold in the oceans and, in some cases, the atmolayer as well.

I know that the idea of armed guards at the ice wall exists on the wiki, but I personally find this idea a little ridiculous.  I personally believe the ice wall may exist, but is farther out than we have explored beyond the southern polar ring.  I support the monopole model but concede that our monopole map has spatial issues in the southern hemidisc and isn't perfect.  The earth, in my opinion, may be an infinite plane, but that's just because it makes more sense to me.

Ultimately, we all decide independently what makes sense for each of us, hence the many models.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The earth is round
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2014, 12:18:38 AM »
Wouldn't the water have to be held in either way, on either map? & why haven't people tried to go check out what is beyond the map of the Earth wherein humans do dwell, if the Earth is an infinite plane? Or have such attempts been forbidden by the Conspiracy? Not trying to be a dick. I'm honestly curious.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The earth is round
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2014, 04:33:42 PM »
So far, I have just a few difficulties w/ FET. 1. There is no supported map of the Earth. Both mono- & bi-polar maps present problems.

All we can present are proposals. We lack the necessary funds for verification.

Quote
2. No one can explain how the 'Conspiracy' was maintained before spaceflight.

There was no conspiracy before spaceflight. They were simply mistaken. They are still mistaken.

Quote
3. No one can tell me why anyone would want to start such a conspiracy in the 1st place!

See the link above for a motive.

Quote
4. The 'science' of FET seems fuzzy @ best. I'm by no means a mathematician or a scientist, but it seems that FET has to resort to a lot of excessive round-aboutism, if you will.

Please be specific.

Quote
5. An example of this is: what is the Ice Wall? There are several answers offered, none definitive.

In the Mono-polar model the Ice Wall is a 150 foot wall of ice which surrounds the Antarctic coast: http://wiki.tfes.org/The_Ice_Wall

Quote
6. Who guarded said Wall before NASA existed, & why? So, those questions are just for starters. Any thoughts, from both sides?

Who said the wall was guarded?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The earth is round
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2014, 04:56:51 PM »
Tom, just to address point 1, an intrepid person or persons, sometime in the last 25,000 yrs of history of the Homo sapiens model has to have been 1. A FEer, & 2. Curious enough to go exploring the world enough to map it accurately. Money is beside the point. To address the last point, I don't know about you, but many FEers believe NASA guards the Ice Wall. As for the motive of the Conspiracy, I'm on my phone, which makes the wiki hard to get to, let alone read. Perhaps you could explain.

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Offline Tau

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Re: The earth is round
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2014, 05:10:48 PM »
I don't know about you, but many FEers believe NASA guards the Ice Wall.

Nobody believes that. Nobody ever believed that. I really don't know where that idea came from. It was in the old FAQ, but I don't think anyone ever supported it.

Tom, just to address point 1, an intrepid person or persons, sometime in the last 25,000 yrs of history of the Homo sapiens model has to have been 1. A FEer, & 2. Curious enough to go exploring the world enough to map it accurately. Money is beside the point. 

Evidently not.

As for the motive of the Conspiracy, I'm on my phone, which makes the wiki hard to get to, let alone read. Perhaps you could explain.

It essentially comes down to Cold War fears. The Russians and the Americans were so panicked in racing to space that when they couldn't quite get there, they started faking it. They faked it a bit too well and now they're stuck with their lie.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The earth is round
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2014, 05:23:51 PM »
But what would start the race in the 1st place? Surely when they discovered it wasn't possible, one side or other would hasten to make the other side look stupid. & how do you keep such a vast conspiracy going for 64 yrs? The US can't even snoop on its own citizens' phone records w/o Edward Snowden making them look like asses. Surely, a conspiracy like you're suggesting over so many yrs would be VASTLY more complex & hard to maintain. & throw in the fact that in addition to the US & Russia, China, Japan, & Europe have Space Agencies... All it would take is 1 (ONE) Edward Snowden in 64 yrs from any of those 5 places to blow the conspiracy wide open! Keeping that secret for 64 yrs would be well nigh impossible, no?

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Offline markjo

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Re: The earth is round
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2014, 06:33:24 PM »
So far, I have just a few difficulties w/ FET. 1. There is no supported map of the Earth. Both mono- & bi-polar maps present problems.

All we can present are proposals. We lack the necessary funds for verification.
Proposal?  Is that another word for speculation or hypothesis?  Doesn't sound very Zetetic to me. 
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: The earth is round
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2014, 07:27:15 PM »
You claim that he was forced to say he went to space, or that he was tricked.  Do you have any proof?   ???

It's a simple process of deduction. He claims to have gone into space. One cannot actually go into space. Therefore, he is lying. Why is he lying? Well, he had a long phone call with a prominent world leader who was associated with the NASA conspiracy. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that he was in some way influenced by the conspiracy. Perhaps they threatened his family. Perhaps they offered him money. Perhaps they knew about what he did that time in Thailand. We can only speculate.

What you just did there is a fatal flaw in logic deduction. Although you call it simple, you do not seem to grasp its mechanics. When you made the statement "One cannot actually go into space" you assumed that he is lying. This immediately invalidates your logic. Although your conclusion might be correct, this is not a proof. Unless you have empirical evidence that it is not possible to go into space, your "logic" is void.

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Offline Tau

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Re: The earth is round
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2014, 07:54:41 PM »
You claim that he was forced to say he went to space, or that he was tricked.  Do you have any proof?   ???

It's a simple process of deduction. He claims to have gone into space. One cannot actually go into space. Therefore, he is lying. Why is he lying? Well, he had a long phone call with a prominent world leader who was associated with the NASA conspiracy. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that he was in some way influenced by the conspiracy. Perhaps they threatened his family. Perhaps they offered him money. Perhaps they knew about what he did that time in Thailand. We can only speculate.

What you just did there is a fatal flaw in logic deduction. Although you call it simple, you do not seem to grasp its mechanics. When you made the statement "One cannot actually go into space" you assumed that he is lying. This immediately invalidates your logic. Although your conclusion might be correct, this is not a proof. Unless you have empirical evidence that it is not possible to go into space, your "logic" is void.

Well, yes. The laws of physics as defined by Flat Earth Theory state that space travel is impossible. As experimental evidence clearly points toward Flat Earth Theory, there must be an alternative explanation for supposed space travel. Occam's Razor suggests that they're simply lying.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

Re: The earth is round
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2014, 08:09:29 PM »
You claim that he was forced to say he went to space, or that he was tricked.  Do you have any proof?   ???

It's a simple process of deduction. He claims to have gone into space. One cannot actually go into space. Therefore, he is lying. Why is he lying? Well, he had a long phone call with a prominent world leader who was associated with the NASA conspiracy. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that he was in some way influenced by the conspiracy. Perhaps they threatened his family. Perhaps they offered him money. Perhaps they knew about what he did that time in Thailand. We can only speculate.

What you just did there is a fatal flaw in logic deduction. Although you call it simple, you do not seem to grasp its mechanics. When you made the statement "One cannot actually go into space" you assumed that he is lying. This immediately invalidates your logic. Although your conclusion might be correct, this is not a proof. Unless you have empirical evidence that it is not possible to go into space, your "logic" is void.

Well, yes. The laws of physics as defined by Flat Earth Theory state that space travel is impossible. As experimental evidence clearly points toward Flat Earth Theory, there must be an alternative explanation for supposed space travel. Occam's Razor suggests that they're simply lying.

And yet you still miss the point. The very fact that you say that space travel is impossible assumes that the FET is true. Therefore, you cannot use this argument.

Rama Set

Re: The earth is round
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2014, 08:30:27 PM »
You claim that he was forced to say he went to space, or that he was tricked.  Do you have any proof?   ???

It's a simple process of deduction. He claims to have gone into space. One cannot actually go into space. Therefore, he is lying. Why is he lying? Well, he had a long phone call with a prominent world leader who was associated with the NASA conspiracy. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that he was in some way influenced by the conspiracy. Perhaps they threatened his family. Perhaps they offered him money. Perhaps they knew about what he did that time in Thailand. We can only speculate.

What you just did there is a fatal flaw in logic deduction. Although you call it simple, you do not seem to grasp its mechanics. When you made the statement "One cannot actually go into space" you assumed that he is lying. This immediately invalidates your logic. Although your conclusion might be correct, this is not a proof. Unless you have empirical evidence that it is not possible to go into space, your "logic" is void.

Well, yes. The laws of physics as defined by Flat Earth Theory state that space travel is impossible. As experimental evidence clearly points toward Flat Earth Theory, there must be an alternative explanation for supposed space travel. Occam's Razor suggests that they're simply lying.

What law of physics claims that space travel is impossible?