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Offline DSC

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blackhole created the big bang.
« on: January 01, 2018, 04:04:52 AM »
My own layman thoughts.

"first law matter/energy cannot be created nor can it be destroyed. ... It can change from solid to liquid to gas to plasma and back again, but the total amount of matter/energy in the universe remains constant."


where does energy go when consumed/destroyed by a black hole?

I think that the whole big bang theory points directly to what happens on the otherside of a black hole.

of course this must lead to an assumption of wormholes or for my thinking a multiverse.

anyone have anything? I'm happy to bw proven wrong.

But based on newtons law, the energy consumed by a black hole must go somewhere, or else it is contained, which is improbable.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2018, 08:50:52 AM »
Its contained.  Held at the center by the massive gravitational forces until slowly released via hawkins radiation.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline DSC

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2018, 12:01:00 PM »
Interesting stuff.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/175414-stephen-hawking-research-there-are-no-black-holes

 had always thought the theory on black holes didn't compketely fit in with current physics. There is always much more to learn about. Quantum physics is evolving so much these days.

Hawkings paper attached. Suprisingly for such a huge deal, only two pages long.

*couldn't attach. File to large?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 12:04:42 PM by DSC »

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2018, 12:03:45 PM »
Information Preservation and Weather Forecasting for Black
Holes∗
S. W. Hawking1
1DAMTP, University of Cambridge, UK
Abstract
It has been suggested [1] that the resolution of the information paradox for evaporating black
holes is that the holes are surrounded by firewalls, bolts of outgoing radiation that would destroy
any infalling observer. Such firewalls would break the CPT invariance of quantum gravity and seem
to be ruled out on other grounds. A different resolution of the paradox is proposed, namely that
gravitational collapse produces apparent horizons but no event horizons behind which information is
lost. This proposal is supported by ADS-CFT and is the only resolution of the paradox compatible
with CPT. The collapse to form a black hole will in general be chaotic and the dual CFT on the
boundary of ADS will be turbulent. Thus, like weather forecasting on Earth, information will
effectively be lost, although there would be no loss of unitarity.
∗ Talk given at the fuzz or fire workshop, The Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics, Santa Barbara, August
2013
1
arXiv:1401.5761v1 [hep-th] 22 Jan 2014


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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2018, 12:05:55 PM »
If the big bang creates the universe and black holes created the big bang, what creates black holes? You aren't any further forward.

You are also several orders of magnitude wrong. The one universe has many many black holes. There isn't a universe per hole.

You also seem to be taking the concept of 'hole' to mean negative or opposite to the universe and matter. A black hole isn't a gaping tear in the cosmos. It is just a very dense concentration of matter ... a large squashed up star whose gravity is strong enough to pull even light in to join it.

You know, you could stop a lot of wondering and time wasting if you just subscribe to "God done it". All the effort that goes into avoiding this conclusion and coming up with things equally stupid like infinite universes, inflation theory, string theory etc etc.

Of all the stupid theories, including 'god', God so happens to be the best one. It is the only one where you get to feel special. Like your life isn't a fluke, but that there is a planned place for you and as order was separated from chaos, your little time and place in the universe was scheduled in and catered for. If you are going to live in ignorance anyway, why not choose blissful ignorance, over bleak insignificance and meaningless?  There's a reason religious people tend to be happier.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2886974/Study-Religious-people-happier-life-satisfaction-others.html

Just swallow the blue pill and enjoy your life.
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Offline DSC

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2018, 12:30:22 PM »
Yes correct, a bit like the chicken and the egg. Maybe universes have always existed. We postulate on the age of our own, and I know there are many blackholes within our Universe. I also understand what a blackhole is thought to be and know thst it's not the same as a hole in the ground.


and you can keep your god. I don't want it.

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2018, 01:07:31 PM »
and you can keep your god. I don't want it.
You'd rather choose to believe a made up theory that makes your existence utterly worthless, than a made up theory that makes you special? Atheists have some dreadful self-loathing issues. Its called blind faith for a reason. You ignore the bits that make no sense and turn a blind eye (Adam and Eve having 3 sons for example), in order that you can embrace the bits that you wish were true, such as justice for those who may wrong you or reunification with a deceased loved one. Its called being happy.

And on that note, Happy New Year. May you find God and therefore peace.  :)
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2018, 02:19:50 PM »
If Steven Hawking wrote a paper on black holes, it would not be 2 pages long.  It is likely fake or just a summary.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2018, 07:10:35 PM »
If Steven Hawking wrote a paper on black holes, it would not be 2 pages long.  It is likely fake or just a summary.

It’s a summary. Hawking has produced a paper since then that walks back this idea in 2016.
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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2018, 07:13:44 PM »
and you can keep your god. I don't want it.
You'd rather choose to believe a made up theory that makes your existence utterly worthless, than a made up theory that makes you special? Atheists have some dreadful self-loathing issues. Its called blind faith for a reason. You ignore the bits that make no sense and turn a blind eye (Adam and Eve having 3 sons for example), in order that you can embrace the bits that you wish were true, such as justice for those who may wrong you or reunification with a deceased loved one. Its called being happy.

And on that note, Happy New Year. May you find God and therefore peace.  :)

Some people enjoy the notion of striving to find the truth of existence unlike God-botherers who would rather assume a conclusion that satisfies their inner child. As for having a meaningless life, nothing about an afterlife makes life meaningful inherently; it is merely another source of motivation to try and live well. If that’s what you need then go ahead.
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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2018, 08:04:59 AM »
quote author=Baby Thork link=topic=8326.msg137039#msg137039 date=1514812051]
and you can keep your god. I don't want it.
You'd rather choose to believe a made up theory that makes your existence utterly worthless, than a made up theory that makes you special? Atheists have some dreadful self-loathing issues. Its called blind faith for a reason. You ignore the bits that make no sense and turn a blind eye (Adam and Eve having 3 sons for example), in order that you can embrace the bits that you wish were true, such as justice for those who may wrong you or reunification with a deceased loved one. Its called being happy.

And on that note, Happy New Year. May you find God and therefore peace.  :)
[/quote]

yes, i rather prefer to believe in science and the strive of understanding our world tham rely on an old fable ro give me comfort. I do not need threats of eternal damnation to guide my morals.

If you do, good on you. I believe anyone can follow whatever they like it as long as it gives them what they are seeking. 

Tell me. If adam and eve had three sons, how did they populate the planet?


he early chapters of Genesis are concerned with the origin of the Earth and all life, including man. The Author's intention is seemingly to present the grand picture first and then add certain details throughout the rest of Scripture; this is called Progressive Revelation. All we are told about Adam's offspring is that the first son was named Cain, the second son named Abel [Genesis 4:1-2 ], then after Abel's murder, another son named Seth was "begotten when Adam was 130 years old." After that, Adam "begot sons and daughters" [Genesis 5:3-4]. This same passage also tells us that Adam lived for 930 years [Genesis 5:5]. Therefore, according to Scripture, Adam and Eve's family consisted of sons Cain, Abel and Seth, plus a minimum of two other sons and two daughters, giving a total of seven children. However, accepting that Adam, and likely Eve, lived for 930 years, seven children would be the minimum number, but does this seem reasonable?

Genesis chapter five presents the genealogies of the descendants of Adam where we are simply given the father's name, his age when he "begot" the first son and the total number of years he lived. With the exception of Enoch, all of these pre-flood descendants of Adam lived a minimum of 777 years, while most were over 900 years. In each instance, the record simply gives the name of the first son, then adds "and begot sons and daughters." With these words, the minimum number of children per family then becomes five. But is this really a credible number?

Living over 900 years means living ten times longer than we do today. Proportionately, the female period of fecundity – today 30 to 35 years – would then be about 350 years. At a rate of only one child every seven years, this would result in 50 children for Adam's immediate family. Interestingly, two ancient books written about the time of Christ but not having the authority of inspired Scripture confirm these figures. The Book of Jubilees, whose author is unknown, was written in the second century B.C. and states that Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Paradise seven years [p.49]. Then Eve gave birth to her first child, Cain, between the ages of 64-70, or the same numbers as the age of the Earth, anno mundi. Eve's second child, Abel, was born seven years later – between the years 71-77 anno mundi [p.51]. The total number of Adam's children is not given in this work; however, it is found as a footnote in The Works of Josephus where it states: "The number of Adam's children, as says the old tradition, was 33 sons and 23 daughters." In view of their longevity, these appear to be reasonable figures while it would have to be said that, sinners though they were, Adam and Eve had faithfully obeyed God's first commission to: "be fruitful and multiply …" [Genesis 1:28].


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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2018, 08:06:40 AM »
If you believe in any of this nonsense, the book I mean. Aside from some kind of guide tomoral justification. it's not a far stretch to believe in a flat earth I guess.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 08:55:40 AM by DSC »

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2018, 05:34:46 PM »
I already said, the Adam and Eve story makes no real sense. It doesn't have to. Its not about how people populated the planet. Its a parable about temptation and the pitfalls of giving into it. It isn't like Noah managed to get two of every kind of the billions of land animals on our planet on his boat either. His Ark would be crawling in bugs, yuck. That's a story about evil people drowning and that you should try to behave yourself. Its all common sense stuff. But no, you want to dwell on the animals and the problems of breeding brothers with brothers.  ::)

For the record, I am a Deist. So the above is not my preferred flavour of religion, but I respect it all the same. I respect all religions ... it is only atheism that I can't get on board with. Atheism is the only belief system that doesn't offer people anything. It is wholly destructive.

If you have a dying child, every religion teaches of an afterlife and that child will see mummy in heaven. What does an atheist tell the kid? Sorry sweetie, you are going to be worm food?
If you have someone starving in a poor country, they can hope ... and therefore pray for rain for their crops or international aid, or some divine intervention. An atheist just gets depressed.
If you have 2 young siblings and no one is there to stop them screwing each other, and no omnipotent deity is watching and judging, who puts the fear of God onto them?
If you have done something you are utterly ashamed of and the guilt is eating you from the inside out, you can ask for forgiveness and make your peace with God. Atheists just go on self-hating.
If you want to raise money to help people in your community "Hi, I'm collecting for St Mary's parish fundraiser". Sure, sound like decent god-fearing folk, have a dollar. "Hi, I'm collecting for atheism" ... I'm calling the police.
If you want to give up drinking or drugs the first thing you are advised to do is the self-catharsis of submitting to a "higher power". Atheists just keep on drinking.

Atheism answers nothing, offers nothing and takes everything from you. The comfort from a dying child, the hope of the poor, the self-respect of the wretched, the courage and strength of the ill, and the culture of your community ... no one knows if God exists or not, but choosing to believe there is no God is just plain stupid. You get nothing in return for that.

You live in a first world country. You have no troubles. You aren't likely to get ill and die young, you aren't likely to starve to death, you won't face wars or abject poverty ... sure, you don't need God. But the thing I hate most about atheists ... they never shut the Thork up about it. And they belittle those who do need God ... the weak. They are the first to say creationists are idiots, that religion is for imbeciles, that God is a fantasy and that science proves it and only the stupid would pray to a God. They want to take the things people rely on from religions because they don't have or need them. Atheists are vindictive, self-loathing and selfish and it is because they have no spirituality. How can you love someone bereft of spirituality? How can you respect them? How can you admire them? Who the hell would want to be that guy?

Pick any religion you like, but if you choose atheism, you're the dummy. You are denying that you are a human, some infallible robot that is not spiritual and has no human spirit. All humans, from every corner of the earth for all time have been spiritual, it is hardwired into the human brain to help intelligent beings deal with complex society, mortality and natural fears. And you just classed yourself as sub-human. Dogs don't need God. Lizards aren't spiritual. Insects don't take 5 minutes to give thanks and appreciate their life. Imagine telling people you have no soul. I pity the atheists ... choosers of the stupidest belief system on earth (and I'm a member of the flat earth society).
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 05:42:58 PM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2018, 07:23:44 PM »
For the record, I am a Deist. So the above is not my preferred flavour of religion, but I respect it all the same.

If you are a Deist, then you are not guaranteed an afterlife, sawwy.  If you want an afterlife, you have to go full Theist.  You want what the bible says, you aren't a Deist.

Quote
I respect all religions ... it is only atheism that I can't get on board with.
Why?  You seem perfectly willing to disrespect all sorts of everything, why are you particular about religion being all things good?

Quote
Atheism is the only belief system that doesn't offer people anything.

Incorrect.

Quote
It is wholly destructive.

It isn't destructive unless you think you are entitled to feeling special.

Quote
If you have a dying child, every religion teaches of an afterlife and that child will see mummy in heaven.

Judaism doesn't.

Quote
What does an atheist tell the kid? Sorry sweetie, you are going to be worm food?

Religions instead have to live in a fear of an all-powerful deity whose concern for you is whimsical and sometimes involves this being as a cruel, malicious destroyer.

Quote
If you have someone starving in a poor country, they can hope ... and therefore pray for rain for their crops or international aid, or some divine intervention. An atheist just gets depressed.

Atheists also can hope, sorry you think otherwise.

Quote
If you have 2 young siblings and no one is there to stop them screwing each other, and no omnipotent deity is watching and judging, who puts the fear of God onto them?

Why must one have the fear of God?  You spoke about how warm religious life is, but here you are saying that one -must- fear supernatural retribution.

Quote
If you have done something you are utterly ashamed of and the guilt is eating you from the inside out, you can ask for forgiveness and make your peace with God. Atheists just go on self-hating.

Atheists, like God, can accept that people make mistakes and deserve a second chance.

Quote
If you want to raise money to help people in your community "Hi, I'm collecting for St Mary's parish fundraiser". Sure, sound like decent god-fearing folk, have a dollar.

No I close the door on them.

Quote
"Hi, I'm collecting for atheism" ... I'm calling the police.

For knocking on your door?  You are a shitty Christian.

Quote
If you want to give up drinking or drugs the first thing you are advised to do is the self-catharsis of submitting to a "higher power". Atheists just keep on drinking.

A "higher power" is not necessarily God.

Quote
Atheism answers nothing, offers nothing and takes everything from you.

Atheism is not a system of generating knowledge, nor does it require anything of you.

Quote
The comfort from a dying child, the hope of the poor, the self-respect of the wretched, the courage and strength of the ill, and the culture of your community ... no one knows if God exists or not, but choosing to believe there is no God is just plain stupid. You get nothing in return for that.

It gives you the freedom to explore conceptions of the universe where you don't have all the answers.

Quote
You live in a first world country. You have no troubles. You aren't likely to get ill and die young, you aren't likely to starve to death, you won't face wars or abject poverty ... sure, you don't need God. But the thing I hate most about atheists ... they never shut the Thork up about it. And they belittle those who do need God ... the weak. They are the first to say creationists are idiots, that religion is for imbeciles, that God is a fantasy and that science proves it and only the stupid would pray to a God. They want to take the things people rely on from religions because they don't have or need them. Atheists are vindictive, self-loathing and selfish and it is because they have no spirituality. How can you love someone bereft of spirituality? How can you respect them? How can you admire them? Who the hell would want to be that guy?

Plenty of atheists never speak about it.  I only speak about it, when people directly question it, but I have several religious friends who I engage with about spiritual topics and I never once mention my beliefs on God.  This is because spiritual topics, although they coincide with religious topics, are not dependent on religion or supernatural powers.

Quote
Pick any religion you like, but if you choose atheism, you're the dummy.

Again, just a shit Christian.

Quote
You are denying that you are a human, some infallible robot that is not spiritual and has no human spirit. All humans, from every corner of the earth for all time have been spiritual, it is hardwired into the human brain to help intelligent beings deal with complex society, mortality and natural fears. And you just classed yourself as sub-human. Dogs don't need God. Lizards aren't spiritual. Insects don't take 5 minutes to give thanks and appreciate their life. Imagine telling people you have no soul. I pity the atheists ... choosers of the stupidest belief system on earth (and I'm a member of the flat earth society).

To reiterate, spirituality is not dependent on religiosity.
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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2018, 07:30:14 PM »
The most important thing to remember here, is that the Big Bang is not an atheist idea.  It is a scientific idea, that ironically was first proposed by a Catholic priest.  Every scientist I have heard speak on the topic concedes that they cannot answer the infinite regression, just as a religious person can't. 
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2018, 08:49:19 PM »
I can tell you, I'm not looking forward to chopping all these quotes up to answer them. >:(

For the record, I am a Deist. So the above is not my preferred flavour of religion, but I respect it all the same.
If you are a Deist, then you are not guaranteed an afterlife, sawwy.  If you want an afterlife, you have to go full Theist.
Lrn2Deist
https://www.quora.com/Do-Deists-believe-in-an-afterlife?share=1

Quote
I respect all religions ... it is only atheism that I can't get on board with.
Why?  You seem perfectly willing to disrespect all sorts of everything, why are you particular about religion being all things good?
I believe that fundamentally people with religion are better people. They tend to care more about family, community and are happier. Its a generalisation, but atheists are usually childless loners only interested in buying shit from Apple.

Quote
Atheism is the only belief system that doesn't offer people anything.
Incorrect.
What does it give you?

Quote
It is wholly destructive.
It isn't destructive unless you think you are entitled to feeling special.
Wanting to feel special is an entitlement? I may have a new theory brewing about atheists not being hugged as children.

Quote
If you have a dying child, every religion teaches of an afterlife and that child will see mummy in heaven.
Judaism doesn't.
Google She'ol and come back to me.

Quote
What does an atheist tell the kid? Sorry sweetie, you are going to be worm food?
Religions instead have to live in a fear of an all-powerful deity whose concern for you is whimsical and sometimes involves this being as a cruel, malicious destroyer.
Only if you are doing shitty things to your fellow man. If you are nice, its all fluffy bunnies and rainbows.

Quote
If you have someone starving in a poor country, they can hope ... and therefore pray for rain for their crops or international aid, or some divine intervention. An atheist just gets depressed.
Atheists also can hope, sorry you think otherwise.
What do they hope for? That their insignificant existence on an insignificant time scale on an insignificant planet in an insignificant universe suddenly produces a significant change of fortune?

Quote
If you have 2 young siblings and no one is there to stop them screwing each other, and no omnipotent deity is watching and judging, who puts the fear of God onto them?
Why must one have the fear of God?  You spoke about how warm religious life is, but here you are saying that one -must- fear supernatural retribution.
Well that is a discussion about politics. Big God/small government vs Big government / small God. I happen to also be a Libertarian so lets not drift off into politics and power of the state.

Quote
If you have done something you are utterly ashamed of and the guilt is eating you from the inside out, you can ask for forgiveness and make your peace with God. Atheists just go on self-hating.
Atheists, like God, can accept that people make mistakes and deserve a second chance.
Why do people deserve anything? Soulless meaningless creatures that they are? Without God, why place any value on life, others or the universe?

Quote
If you want to raise money to help people in your community "Hi, I'm collecting for St Mary's parish fundraiser". Sure, sound like decent god-fearing folk, have a dollar.
No I close the door on them.
That is because you are an in-compassionate sociopath without a soul.

Quote
"Hi, I'm collecting for atheism" ... I'm calling the police.
For knocking on your door?  You are a shitty Christian.
I'm not a Christian. I also don't support militant activists who look to oppress religious groups.

Quote
If you want to give up drinking or drugs the first thing you are advised to do is the self-catharsis of submitting to a "higher power". Atheists just keep on drinking.
A "higher power" is not necessarily God.
What is your interpretation of a higher power if not a deity, then? Electricity?

Quote
Atheism answers nothing, offers nothing and takes everything from you.
Atheism is not a system of generating knowledge, nor does it require anything of you.
It requires you to part with your spirituality.

Quote
The comfort from a dying child, the hope of the poor, the self-respect of the wretched, the courage and strength of the ill, and the culture of your community ... no one knows if God exists or not, but choosing to believe there is no God is just plain stupid. You get nothing in return for that.

It gives you the freedom to explore conceptions of the universe where you don't have all the answers.
And here we have it. The narcissism that comes with an atheist. Despite every atheist knowing the "why are we here?" question is the hardest of all questions to solve ... every damn one of them thinks they will be the one to work it all out. 7 billion people, but if they keep thinking of imaginative theories they will stumble on the answer to the ultimate question. All they have to do is be smarter than other people and not settle for God, and just keep making up reason after reason why it isn't God, until they hit upon the answer. Ask any atheist "how was the big bang created" and every one of them will have their own personalised theory. Bunch of boring wankers, the lot of them. Never get stuck in a bar with a drunk one and ask his/her opinion.

Quote
You live in a first world country. You have no troubles. You aren't likely to get ill and die young, you aren't likely to starve to death, you won't face wars or abject poverty ... sure, you don't need God. But the thing I hate most about atheists ... they never shut the Thork up about it. And they belittle those who do need God ... the weak. They are the first to say creationists are idiots, that religion is for imbeciles, that God is a fantasy and that science proves it and only the stupid would pray to a God. They want to take the things people rely on from religions because they don't have or need them. Atheists are vindictive, self-loathing and selfish and it is because they have no spirituality. How can you love someone bereft of spirituality? How can you respect them? How can you admire them? Who the hell would want to be that guy?
Plenty of atheists never speak about it.  I only speak about it, when people directly question it, but I have several religious friends who I engage with about spiritual topics and I never once mention my beliefs on God.  This is because spiritual topics, although they coincide with religious topics, are not dependent on religion or supernatural powers.
Google the word spirituality and tell me how an atheist can be spiritual. You know, being as they don't believe in spirits and all.

Quote
Pick any religion you like, but if you choose atheism, you're the dummy.

Again, just a shit Christian.
Again, not a Christian.

Quote
You are denying that you are a human, some infallible robot that is not spiritual and has no human spirit. All humans, from every corner of the earth for all time have been spiritual, it is hardwired into the human brain to help intelligent beings deal with complex society, mortality and natural fears. And you just classed yourself as sub-human. Dogs don't need God. Lizards aren't spiritual. Insects don't take 5 minutes to give thanks and appreciate their life. Imagine telling people you have no soul. I pity the atheists ... choosers of the stupidest belief system on earth (and I'm a member of the flat earth society).

To reiterate, spirituality is not dependent on religiosity.
To reiterate, spirituality is about believing in the spirit world.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality
spiritual
ADJECTIVE
1 Relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

2 Relating to religion or religious belief.
Tell me how an atheist can be spiritual. Tell me how an atheist can have a soul. Atheists are the inbred gingers of the religious spectrum.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2018, 10:44:17 PM »
I can tell you, I'm not looking forward to chopping all these quotes up to answer them. >:(

It is ok muffin, you enjoy it deep down.

Quote
Lrn2Deist
https://www.quora.com/Do-Deists-believe-in-an-afterlife?share=1

Well, I suppose if you aren't concerned with logic then yeah, you can be a deist and be "sure" there is an afterlife.

I believe that fundamentally people with religion are better people. They tend to care more about family, community and are happier. Its a generalisation, but atheists are usually childless loners only interested in buying shit from Apple.

It's a terrible generalization too.  But please, continue.

Quote
What does it give you?

A way to divest myself from the childish, ego-centric notion that I am a special snowflake.

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Wanting to feel special is an entitlement? I may have a new theory brewing about atheists not being hugged as children.

Perhaps you should look in to what happens to children who are told that everyone is special?  If give everyone a trophy it is very damaging to your psyche.

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Google She'ol and come back to me.

Oh crap, I meant to delete that.  You are, of course, right about that.

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Only if you are doing shitty things to your fellow man. If you are nice, its all fluffy bunnies and rainbows.

It is like you haven't even studied religions.

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What do they hope for? That their insignificant existence on an insignificant time scale on an insignificant planet in an insignificant universe suddenly produces a significant change of fortune?

That I can push myself and my fellow humans to accomplish fulfilling things.  That I can have a beautiful and interesting journey through life, and die with people whom I love.

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Well that is a discussion about politics. Big God/small government vs Big government / small God. I happen to also be a Libertarian so lets not drift off into politics and power of the state.

So you want to duck the topic.  Such a brave religious man.
 

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Why do people deserve anything? Soulless meaningless creatures that they are? Without God, why place any value on life, others or the universe?

Because subjectively our fellow man fills us with empathy, inspiration and communion?  The experience of being human doesn't radically change if you stop believing in God.

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That is because you are an in-compassionate sociopath without a soul.

No, I donate to charities that I research not that come soliciting at my door. 

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I'm not a Christian. I also don't support militant activists who look to oppress religious groups.

Me neither,  but I also don't phone the police when they want to talk (something about psychopathy?)

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What is your interpretation of a higher power if not a deity, then? Electricity?
Connecting with the world in a way that diminishes my sense of me being the centre of existence.

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It requires you to part with your spirituality.

lrn2spiritual

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And here we have it. The narcissism that comes with an atheist. Despite every atheist knowing the "why are we here?" question is the hardest of all questions to solve ... every damn one of them thinks they will be the one to work it all out. 7 billion people, but if they keep thinking of imaginative theories they will stumble on the answer to the ultimate question. All they have to do is be smarter than other people and not settle for God, and just keep making up reason after reason why it isn't God, until they hit upon the answer. Ask any atheist "how was the big bang created" and every one of them will have their own personalised theory. Bunch of boring wankers, the lot of them. Never get stuck in a bar with a drunk one and ask his/her opinion.

I talked about not having answers and you took that to mean I had answers.  lol wut?

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Google the word spirituality and tell me how an atheist can be spiritual. You know, being as they don't believe in spirits and all.

My subjective self, the side of myself that cannot be quantified and that perceives time and space in a way that is distinctly irrational is my spirit.

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Again, not a Christian.

If I misinterpreted you I apologize, but what religion do you subscribe to?

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You are denying that you are a human, some infallible robot that is not spiritual and has no human spirit. All humans, from every corner of the earth for all time have been spiritual, it is hardwired into the human brain to help intelligent beings deal with complex society, mortality and natural fears.

I use art and creativity to do that just fine thanks.

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And you just classed yourself as sub-human. Dogs don't need God. Lizards aren't spiritual. Insects don't take 5 minutes to give thanks and appreciate their life. Imagine telling people you have no soul. I pity the atheists ... choosers of the stupidest belief system on earth (and I'm a member of the flat earth society).

I can conceive of a soul and it doesn't have to be eternal.

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Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality
spiritual
ADJECTIVE
1 Relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

2 Relating to religion or religious belief.
Tell me how an atheist can be spiritual. Tell me how an atheist can have a soul. Atheists are the inbred gingers of the religious spectrum.

You talk about choosing to believe things, I choose to define my spiritual side in a decidedly more New Age fashion.  These ideas are not captured by wikipedia unfortunately for you, but have been part of society for several decades at least.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2018, 11:00:50 PM »
https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/19/black-hole-image-jean-pierre-luminet/

A cool low-tech model of a black hole that is still accurate today.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2018, 02:14:29 AM »
Well, I suppose if you aren't concerned with logic then yeah, you can be a deist and be "sure" there is an afterlife.
What has spirituality to do with logic? It has nothing to do with logic. It places man between the rising ape and the falling angel.

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What does it give you?
A way to divest myself from the childish, ego-centric notion that I am a special snowflake.
There is nothing childish about placing oneself as the centre of the universe. It is a survival instinct.

Perhaps you should look in to what happens to children who are told that everyone is special?  If give everyone a trophy it is very damaging to your psyche.
Spoilt children don't turn out well, but they do turn out better than neglected children. Receiving love and being special in moderation is very good for you. It creates a sense of wellbeing and makes you feel safe and valued. Children need that kind of security.

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Only if you are doing shitty things to your fellow man. If you are nice, its all fluffy bunnies and rainbows.

It is like you haven't even studied religions.
And example of this not being the case might help.

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What do they hope for? That their insignificant existence on an insignificant time scale on an insignificant planet in an insignificant universe suddenly produces a significant change of fortune?
That I can push myself and my fellow humans to accomplish fulfilling things.  That I can have a beautiful and interesting journey through life, and die with people whom I love.
This is the quote I want to focus on ... more on this at the bottom.

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Well that is a discussion about politics. Big God/small government vs Big government / small God. I happen to also be a Libertarian so lets not drift off into politics and power of the state.

So you want to duck the topic.  Such a brave religious man.
It really is a new topic and is too much to add to this one. Trey Gowdy does a wonderful speech at Liberty University on this.
 
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Why do people deserve anything? Soulless meaningless creatures that they are? Without God, why place any value on life, others or the universe?
Because subjectively our fellow man fills us with empathy, inspiration and communion?  The experience of being human doesn't radically change if you stop believing in God.
This ties in with the other quote ... more at the bottom.

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That is because you are an in-compassionate sociopath without a soul.
No, I donate to charities that I research not that come soliciting at my door.
Yeah, I hear that every year from people when I collect on the sleigh. They don't have "their own charities". Its a way to say I don't want to donate (which is fine), but I don't want to look like I'm mean (which is not fine).

What is your interpretation of a higher power if not a deity, then? Electricity?
Connecting with the world in a way that diminishes my sense of me being the centre of existence.

Why would you want to set an objective like that? Its like saying I want to be a wonderful actor but I don't want anyone to ever see me perform.


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Google the word spirituality and tell me how an atheist can be spiritual. You know, being as they don't believe in spirits and all.

My subjective self, the side of myself that cannot be quantified and that perceives time and space in a way that is distinctly irrational is my spirit.
Thank you for this. And this will wrap up my statement at the bottom.

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Again, not a Christian.
If I misinterpreted you I apologize, but what religion do you subscribe to?
Would you like me to write Deism in bigger letters?

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And you just classed yourself as sub-human. Dogs don't need God. Lizards aren't spiritual. Insects don't take 5 minutes to give thanks and appreciate their life. Imagine telling people you have no soul. I pity the atheists ... choosers of the stupidest belief system on earth (and I'm a member of the flat earth society).

I can conceive of a soul and it doesn't have to be eternal.
Making it very easy for me at the bottom ...


You talk about choosing to believe things, I choose to define my spiritual side in a decidedly more New Age fashion.  These ideas are not captured by wikipedia unfortunately for you, but have been part of society for several decades at least.
I should have been more specific on my opinion of atheists. I pity atheists. I loathe new age atheists. The spiteful condescending types. Think Richard Dawkins or Brian Cox.
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism
This modern-day atheism is advanced by a group of thinkers and writers who advocate the view that superstition, religion and irrationalism should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized, and exposed by rational argument wherever their influence arises in government, education, and politics.
To be intolerant to the religious and demand they share the same twisted beliefs the atheists do ... its like these people have no hypocrisy filter.



So ... we're at the bottom.
You can conceive of a soul. Well that's not very atheist, is it? Where is the science? Can you capture a soul in a petri dish, detect it on an oscilloscope ... do you have a formula for souls? Where does a soul fit in with science or logic? Where does a soul fit in with not being special? What makes a soul? How did you get yours, and where did you get it from? Did it just appear from nowhere like your big bang universe? Or could it be the irrational sentient part of your brain struggling to comprehend the complexity of life itself? Is your soul merely a manifestation of wonder and admiration. The haplessly grateful side of your rational mind that is just happy to be alive?

Where does a soul fit in with striving to understand the universe leaving no stone unturned in mankind's thirst for knowledge? You seem very uninterested in lifting that particular stone. Why? Is what is under there the real abandonment of God and that you are more than cosmic dust? The ape letting go of his dreams of angels? Are you a plastic atheist, deriding the notion of God but holding close the comfort blanket of spirituality? It doesn't make you a hypocrite. Its worse. It makes you an ingrate. That you can appreciate the universe, realise how awesome it is and the mind-blowing odds that you could be here right now reading this crap I'm writing, and you can't say "thanks". To receive such a gift and be so overwhelmed by it as to not be able to acknowledge whomever or whatever gave it to you?

You want to connect with the universe ... the universe is God. He is everything, it is from the earth we are born. So let me connect you to God and the universe right now. Raise your eyes upwards, pause for a second and make your inner monolgue say "thank you for my life, I'm enjoying it". Because you have a soul, because you are connected and because spirituality is burned into your skull through thousands of years of evolution ... you'll feel good about saying thank you. Like a little guilt just slipped away. Because you hedged that should there be intelligent design, you took a second to thank it, and if there isn't, it doesn't matter anyway. It was a private moment ... a little prayer.

I don't believe in God because I think it is the right answer. I believe in God because it is the only answer that fits my biology. And that's the best science you could possibly put into deciding what to believe.
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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: blackhole created the big bang.
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2018, 11:50:56 AM »
There’s things I believe and things I’d like to believe.

I’d like to believe there was a greater presence who cared for me, that there is a reason for my being here, then again, I’d like to believe that Thork had gone away and come back a better person, but I am reconciled to the fact that these things are not so.

Are “spiritual” people better than atheists, or vice versa? No, some people are better than others, I have met bitter and twisted individuals from both persuasions, and lovely ones with biases that were as unshakable as they were inexplicable.
Bigotry is as endemic in the human psyche as awe and the need to look for answers. That this searching and wonder, allied to innate systems of pattern recognition/apophenia, generate religions is hardly a revelation. The variety of these and their shifts in emphasis as societies morph (think the change from warlike Norse pantheon to monotheist Christianity to wishy-washy Deism in Europe), attest to their essential inaccuracy and our ability to switch one set of inviolable imaginary super beings for another as expediency demands.

As for Deism, it is of course possible that god made the universe to run itself, and then fucked off to make a better one or have a siesta or a cosmic aneurysm, why that then means we have a spirit/soul so you can be both happy clappy proud of yourself and conversely vitriolic towards those who took it one step further is a mystery.

Do I believe in the Big Bang? On balance yes, over many years of reading science magazines and articles, the distribution, movement and composition (of stars/galaxies) are indicative of an expanding universe that had an inflationary event, that we will never know the whole tale is a shame but as the scientific methods that underpin the theory has given us tangible results in so many fields, I am inclined to value its contribution to the image I have of life more than the Mullah’s, Priests and Shamans with their certainties and contradictions, that this means I repel Thork, and am unlikely to be courted as a friend is just a bonus.         
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 11:57:31 AM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.