[Rushy]

Guys, please take this to CN or wherever we talk about markjo being terrible these days. This thread is about how awesome Linux is.

I can (and have) upgraded storage capacity rather easily using Windows, and oh, it didn't involve a bunch of command line junk. Windows has this (new?) thing called a GUI that allows users to perform actions without looking up or memorizing a set of arbitrary commands.

[xasop]

I can (and have) upgraded storage capacity rather easily using Windows, and oh, it didn't involve a bunch of command line junk. Windows has this (new?) thing called a GUI that allows users to perform actions without looking up or memorizing a set of arbitrary commands.

Does Windows allow you to move all your existing files from one drive to another while you're using them as normal?

[Rushy]

Does Windows allow you to move all your existing files from one drive to another while you're using them as normal?

Yes, unless you're using a third party application (like Intel's drive migration utility) in which case Windows thinks the files are in use by another application.

[xasop]

Does Windows allow you to move all your existing files from one drive to another while you're using them as normal?

Yes^{[citation needed]}

[Rushy]

Yes^{[citation needed]}

Considering I've done it before, no, one is not needed.

[xasop]

Yes^{[citation needed]}

Considering I've done it before, no, one is not needed.

What is different about Intel's drive migration utility from any other application that might be using the files? Why will Windows let you move files while in use by one application, but not another?

[Rushy]

What is different about Intel's drive migration utility from any other application that might be using the files? Why will Windows let you move files while in use by one application, but not another?

Windows allows applications (through some mechanism, I am unaware of the specifics) to lock out files as "in use by application." For example, when Microsoft office has an Excel file open and it doesn't want you touching it, it locks the file out. This is opposed to an Access database that can have hordes of people all accessing the same thing. Some applications lock out pretty much entire folders, some lock down just a few files, some don't lock anything at all.

[xasop]

Windows allows applications (through some mechanism, I am unaware of the specifics) to lock out files as "in use by application." For example, when Microsoft office has an Excel file open and it doesn't want you touching it, it locks the file out. This is opposed to an Access database that can have hordes of people all accessing the same thing. Some applications lock out pretty much entire folders, some lock down just a few files, some don't lock anything at all.

So you can't just move the entire filesystem from one device to another while using it as normal, if you happen to use an application that locks files. Good to know.

The migration I just did was done at the block level. Individual files were irrelevant, since the filesystem itself is above the layer at which data got migrated. Also, the paths to the files didn't change, since the files themselves stayed on the same filesystem. The physical location of the data is completely separate from logical file access.

[Rushy]

So you can't just move the entire filesystem from one device to another while using it as normal, if you happen to use an application that locks files. Good to know.

Well, yes... I thought I've already addressed that. Were you confused by my original answer?

The migration I just did was done at the block level. Individual files were irrelevant, since the filesystem itself is above the layer at which data got migrated. Also, the paths to the files didn't change, since the files themselves stayed on the same filesystem. The physical location of the data is completely separate from logical file access.

I thought we were talking about drive migration (you even use the term "migrated"). It sounds like you just expanded your drive, not migrated it. I don't know if Linux treats those as separate things, but Windows can do either.

[xasop]

Well, yes... I thought I've already addressed that. Were you confused by my original answer?

I was, since you opened with "yes" and then clarified that the answer is "no".

I thought we were talking about drive migration (you even use the term "migrated"). It sounds like you just expanded your drive, not migrated it. I don't know if Linux treats those as separate things, but Windows can do either.

I migrated data from one drive to another. There was no expansion involved; at the end of the process, my original drive was empty and I could remove it.

[xasop]

I've just finished a first pass of wiping my original drive with random data, since it had unencrypted files on it. I'll do a second pass later this week, but for now, I'm going to swap in my new 4 TB backup drive and get backups configured.

[xasop]

I'm now doing an initial backup with dirvish, which is a far superior backup program to the one I used previously, rdiff-backup. rdiff-backup is basically a Python script that stores binary diffs between backup increments, so you have to wait approximately three billion years for it to unravel its own diffs in order to restore to anything but the most recent backup.

Dirvish uses filesystem snapshots instead (usually hard-linked trees, but I'm using a patch that allows it to make use of btrfs copy-on-write snapshots for better efficiency), which means that each backup increment just appears as a directory on my filesystem. I can browse each increment as I would any other filesystem tree, and even trivially grep across multiple historical snapshots if I'm looking for something specific.

The other really nice thing about dirvish is that it's very easy to specify custom snapshot expiry. Previously, I kept backups going back 90 days, but I think now that I have dirvish I'll keep some backups (say, one increment per month) forever. October 2014 will be the first month I always have backups of.

[markjo]

I've just finished a first pass of wiping my original drive with random data, since it had unencrypted files on it. I'll do a second pass later this week...

Have you considered using the ATA Secure Erase command?  Seems a whole lot quicker and just as secure.
https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/ATA_Secure_Erase

[Rushy]

I was, since you opened with "yes" and then clarified that the answer is "no".

You asked if Windows can move files while they're in use [by Windows], the answer is yes. I then clarified that if a third party application is using the files, the answer is no.

I migrated data from one drive to another. There was no expansion involved; at the end of the process, my original drive was empty and I could remove it.

Well, since you use Linux I suppose it might treat it differently, but Windows has two options: you expand the original drive and move data between physical locations (e.g. you expand the C:\ drive by X amount) or you create a new drive D:\ and move the data between drive designations. The former option isn't something I'd refer to as a drive migration.

[xasop]

Have you considered using the ATA Secure Erase command?  Seems a whole lot quicker and just as secure.
https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/ATA_Secure_Erase

What makes you think that would be any quicker?

You asked if Windows can move files while they're in use [by Windows], the answer is yes. I then clarified that if a third party application is using the files, the answer is no.

No, I asked if Windows could move files while you're using them as normal. Is your normal usage pattern to boot up an OS and sit there staring at your desktop without starting any applications?

Well, since you use Linux I suppose it might treat it differently, but Windows has two options: you expand the original drive and move data between physical locations (e.g. you expand the C:\ drive by X amount) or you create a new drive D:\ and move the data between drive designations. The former option isn't something I'd refer to as a drive migration.

When I said "drive" I meant, well, a hard drive. I'm not surprised you're confused if you consider "drive" to mean "logical volume" and/or "filesystem".

[markjo]

Have you considered using the ATA Secure Erase command?  Seems a whole lot quicker and just as secure.
https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/ATA_Secure_Erase

What makes you think that would be any quicker?

For one thing, it only requires one pass.

[Rushy]

No, I asked if Windows could move files while you're using them as normal. Is your normal usage pattern to boot up an OS and sit there staring at your desktop without starting any applications?

Like I said, it depends entirely on the application. Most don't lock out anything. If it is too much trouble you could always just copy and paste instead of directly moving the data.

When I said "drive" I meant, well, a hard drive. I'm not surprised you're confused if you consider "drive" to mean "logical volume" and/or "filesystem".

Words have multiple meanings. Shocking, I know.

[xasop]

For one thing, it only requires one pass.

I wouldn't trust any magnetic storage erasure mechanism that claims to require only one pass.

Like I said, it depends entirely on the application. Most don't lock out anything. If it is too much trouble you could always just copy and paste instead of directly moving the data.

So you lose any writes that are done by said applications after copying? What happens if they write something to the file while it's being copied? Do you get a consistent copy?

Words have multiple meanings. Shocking, I know.

Irrelevant, unless you're claiming to have invented a new one for "drive" without telling anyone, in which there's no point continuing to communicate with you.

[Rushy]

So you lose any writes that are done by said applications after copying?

Yes.

What happens if they write something to the file while it's being copied?

Nothing.

Do you get a consistent copy?

Yes.

Irrelevant, unless you're claiming to have invented a new one for "drive" without telling anyone, in which there's no point continuing to communicate with you.

The drive is simply the file location in Windows. (e.g. C:\, D:\, E:\ etc.) it doesn't have to refer to a physical drive. A physical hard disk can have multiple partitions, each with their own drive mapping. At this point it just feels like you're being purposefully obtuse which is rather obnoxious. You're the only Linux person I know of that really, truly, doesn't know how Windows works, which leads me to believe you're just being a dolt on purpose.

[Lord Dave]

Uhhhh... Rushy?  I don't quite understand what you're talking about.
You can't expand a drive without free(unpartitioned) space on said drive and while windows does allow drive spanning, it requires all drives to be blank and unpartitioned first.

As for copying from one to another:
Yes its possible.  I've done it myself though its not a windows function but a 3rd party program.  Xcopy won't make your new HDD usable even if it does copy most of the data.