*

Offline Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 9914
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile

The domestic abuse law in Russia is the same as it is in some states in the US. If someone hits you, it's battery, and there is no special classification based on whether they are a family member.

Why the need to spend any energy eliminating the law?

Quote
There were arguments about that Russian domestic abuse law on whether the situation is more grievous when a stranger attacks you, or whether a trusted family member attacks you. That argument was not resolved and is obviously highly situational, and so there is only one general battery law. The domestic abuse law which classified battery by a relative as a special class was not repealed for baseless evil or whatever you are trying to portray.

Because of course you are going to argue that a stranger slapping you is probably as bad as an intimate partner doing the same. lol

Don't think I didn't notice you not responding to Putin trampling people's personal liberties and the war crimes he has perpetrated either.  I know you are furiously googling something to cherry pick, please get back to us when you have.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3441
    • View Profile
Quote from: stack
I'm pretty sure we've been demonizing Russia for decades. You know, all that Cold War stuff. This is nothing new. Not some new ideology based upon some Christian conservatism. They've basically been our "enemy" forever. Reagan would be pinwheeling in his grave if he read any of your notions.

Incorrect. I do not know what drugs you have been taking, but you have it backwards. Reagan was not an enemy to Russia. Reagan treated Gorbachev as his equal and with respect. It was, in fact, Reagan's peace and friendship with Russia that helped end the Cold War.

I guess I didn't realize that Gorbachev and Putin were the same person, with the same exact ideals and actions and visions for the USSR/Russia. Was Krushchev the same person as well? What about Stalin?

Reagan treated Gorbachev as his equal because we bankrupted the USSR with the arms race and Gorbachev was willing to re-unite Germany, lean into capitalism, and essentially end the cold war. How does Putin compare to that?

*

Offline Dr Van Nostrand

  • *
  • Posts: 945
  • There may be something to this 'Matrix' stuff...
    • View Profile
There is no way that Reagan would have given Gorbachev more of Europe to gain his political support.





The Lungmen were here...   but not anymore.


Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

*

Offline markjo

  • *
  • Posts: 7023
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
Quote from: stack
I'm pretty sure we've been demonizing Russia for decades. You know, all that Cold War stuff. This is nothing new. Not some new ideology based upon some Christian conservatism. They've basically been our "enemy" forever. Reagan would be pinwheeling in his grave if he read any of your notions.

Incorrect. I do not know what drugs you have been taking, but you have it backwards. Reagan was not an enemy to Russia. Reagan treated Gorbachev as his equal and with respect. It was, in fact, Reagan's peace and friendship with Russia that helped end the Cold War.
There you go again, confusing the man with the nation.  Regan may have respected Gorbachev, but he repeatedly referred to the USSR as the "Evil Empire".
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/reagan-refers-to-u-s-s-r-as-evil-empire-again
« Last Edit: October 07, 2022, 10:34:26 PM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#firePete

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10241
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Quote from: stack
I'm pretty sure we've been demonizing Russia for decades. You know, all that Cold War stuff. This is nothing new. Not some new ideology based upon some Christian conservatism. They've basically been our "enemy" forever. Reagan would be pinwheeling in his grave if he read any of your notions.

Incorrect. I do not know what drugs you have been taking, but you have it backwards. Reagan was not an enemy to Russia. Reagan treated Gorbachev as his equal and with respect. It was, in fact, Reagan's peace and friendship with Russia that helped end the Cold War.
There you go again, confusing the man with the nation.  Regan may have respected Gorbachev, but he repeatedly referred to the USSR as the "Evil Empire".
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/reagan-refers-to-u-s-s-r-as-evil-empire-again

Actually he backtracked on those 1983 remarks. By 1988 he declared that they were not an evil empire after all:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pTgIFpLuD6kC&lpg=PP1&pg=PR13#v=onepage&q&f=false



Reagan is known for leading the way in befriending Russia by building a friendship and understanding with the Russian leader. This is what helped to ease the Cold War and was a staple of Reagan's presidency.

In a direct contradiction to this, liberal hero Ukrainian President Zelensky is now calling on NATO to launch "preemptive strikes" on Russia:



« Last Edit: October 08, 2022, 12:23:12 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Tron

  • *
  • Posts: 465
    • View Profile
In Zelenskyy defense he does speak Ukranian, Russian, and English so he might be in a good position to negotiate..   He's also a friend of Trump...
From the surface Earth looks flat.  From space Earth looks round.  Now what?

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3441
    • View Profile
In a direct contradiction to this, liberal hero Ukrainian President Zelensky is now calling on NATO to launch "preemptive strikes" on Russia:

I don't remember, did Gorbachev invade another nation?

*

Offline markjo

  • *
  • Posts: 7023
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
Actually he backtracked on those 1983 remarks. By 1988 he declared that they were not an evil empire after all:
Yes, that was around the time that the USSR was falling apart and Russia was starting down a path to democracy.  That's why Regan came to respect Gorbachev.

Putin is no Gorbachev.  In fact, Putin did much to undo the democratic reforms that Gorbachev started and Regan respected. 
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220831-gorbachev-s-love-hate-relationship-with-putin
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#firePete

*

Online Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 15542
  • (◕˽ ◕ ✿)
    • View Profile
Tom's approach to geopolitics apparently relies on a lack of object permanence. I guess that might work with some world leaders, actually.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

P.S.  All of us illiterate folks understood this the first time.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10241
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Yes, there is a direct comparison with Reagan's efforts at peace with Russia and the possibility of Ukraine's peace with Russia. Peace is not impossible. In March/April of this year there was a tentative peace deal between Ukraine and Russia, which Ukraine squashed.

March 16, 2022

https://www-ft-com.ezp-prod1.hul.harvard.edu/content/7b341e46-d375-4817-be67-802b7fa77ef1

    Ukraine and Russia have made significant progress on a tentative peace plan including a ceasefire and Russian withdrawal if Kyiv declares neutrality and accepts limits on its armed forces, according to five people briefed on the talks.

    Ukrainian and Russian negotiators discussed the proposed deal in full for the first time on Monday, said two of the people. The 15-point draft considered that day would involve Kyiv renouncing its ambitions to join Nato and promising not to host foreign military bases or weaponry in exchange for protection from allies such as the US, UK and Turkey, the people said.

April 3, 2022

https://web.archive.org/web/20220404023417/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/03/ukraines-negotiator-says-russia-agrees-almost-proposals/

    One of Ukraine’s negotiators in peace talks with Russia says Moscow has agreed to almost all of their proposals, paving the way to a possible meeting between the leaders of the countries.

    The Ukrainian delegation at the talks in Istanbul earlier this week agreed to give up its ambition to join Nato. But they asked for other countries to guarantee its future security as a condition to making concessions to Russia, as the ferocious invasion of Ukraine enters its sixth week.

    Kyiv also proposed to set a 15-year timeframe for discussing the legal status of Crimea, the Black Sea peninsula occupied by Russia since 2014.

    David Arakhamia, one of the Ukrainian officials who was negotiating with the Russians in Istanbul, said late on Saturday that his Russian counterparts had verbally agreed to all but one proposal laid out by his team.

    "The Russian Federation has given an official answer to all of our proposals, which is that they accept the (Ukrainian) position, except for the issue of Crimea," Mr Arakhamia said on Ukrainian television.

    The Russian reaction gives him hope that Volodymyr Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, and Vladimir Putin, the Russian leader, would meet for talks soon to hammer out a possible peace deal.

April 7, 2022

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-ukraine-presented-unacceptable-draft-peace-deal-2022-04-07/

    Russia says Ukraine presented 'unacceptable' draft peace deal

    April 7 (Reuters) - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Thursday that Ukraine had presented Moscow with a draft peace deal containing "unacceptable" elements at variance with a previous agreement, comments that Kyiv dismissed as "pure propaganda".

    The Kremlin has said talks with Ukraine are not progressing as rapidly as it would like, and has accused the West of trying to derail negotiations by raising war crimes allegations against Russian troops in Ukraine, which Moscow denies.

    Lavrov said on Thursday that Ukraine had presented a draft agreement on Wednesday that deviated from proposals both sides' negotiators had agreed on.

    Ukraine's new draft, according to Lavrov, said the status of Crimea, which Moscow annexed from Ukraine in 2014, should be raised at a meeting between the two countries' presidents.

    It also said Ukraine could hold military drills with foreign countries without receiving Russia's permission, something Moscow disagrees with.

Actually he backtracked on those 1983 remarks. By 1988 he declared that they were not an evil empire after all:
Yes, that was around the time that the USSR was falling apart and Russia was starting down a path to democracy.  That's why Regan came to respect Gorbachev.

Putin is no Gorbachev.  In fact, Putin did much to undo the democratic reforms that Gorbachev started and Regan respected. 
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220831-gorbachev-s-love-hate-relationship-with-putin

Actually the article you posted says that Gorbachev ended up embracing Putin:

    Over the more than 20 years after Putin came to power, the ex-Soviet leader embraced, then rejected, then embraced again the man who -- much like Gorbachev in the 1980s -- came to embody Russia in the eyes of the West. A grudging respect seemed to have developed in the end, with Gorbachev saying ahead of Putin's 2018 re-election for a fourth term: "Today he is a leader who deservedly enjoys people's support."
« Last Edit: October 09, 2022, 09:29:51 PM by Tom Bishop »


*

Offline crutonius

  • *
  • Posts: 663
  • Just a regular guy. No funny business here.
    • View Profile
I see a contradiction here:

https://www.infobae.com/en/2022/04/20/ukraine-proposed-a-special-round-of-negotiations-with-russia-in-the-besieged-city-of-mariupol/



https://news.antiwar.com/2022/10/04/zelensky-signs-decree-ruling-out-peace-talks-with-putin-as-impossible/



Indeed.  Notice the dates those were published.  A lot has happened.  And after Ukraine blew up Putin's favorite bridge I think Russia is probably ruling out peace talks as well.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10241
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Zelensky had also rejected peace days before the war had begun. Germany had attempted to broker a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia to avoid war. Zelensky rejected it.

Wall Street Journal - https://archive.ph/K39FE#selection-1671.0-1671.370

    Mr. Scholz made one last push for a settlement between Moscow and Kyiv. He told Mr. Zelensky in Munich on Feb. 19 that Ukraine should renounce its NATO aspirations and declare neutrality as part of a wider European security deal between the West and Russia. The pact would be signed by Mr. Putin and Mr. Biden, who would jointly guarantee Ukraine’s security.

    Mr. Zelensky said Mr. Putin couldn’t be trusted to uphold such an agreement and that most Ukrainians wanted to join NATO. His answer left German officials worried that the chances of peace were fading.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2022, 10:36:10 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline crutonius

  • *
  • Posts: 663
  • Just a regular guy. No funny business here.
    • View Profile
Zelensky had also rejected peace days before the war had begun. Germany had attempted to broker a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia to avoid war. Zelensky rejected it.

Wall Street Journal - https://archive.ph/K39FE#selection-1671.0-1671.370

    Mr. Scholz made one last push for a settlement between Moscow and Kyiv. He told Mr. Zelensky in Munich on Feb. 19 that Ukraine should renounce its NATO aspirations and declare neutrality as part of a wider European security deal between the West and Russia. The pact would be signed by Mr. Putin and Mr. Biden, who would jointly guarantee Ukraine’s security.

    Mr. Zelensky said Mr. Putin couldn’t be trusted to uphold such an agreement and that most Ukrainians wanted to join NATO. His answer left German officials worried that the chances of peace were fading.

Also Russia required Ukraine to give up a large part of its territory and dismantle its military.

Odd that zelensky didn't agree to that.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10241
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Also Russia required Ukraine to give up a large part of its territory and dismantle its military.

Odd that zelensky didn't agree to that.

Incorrect. It does not say that in the link I provided. You have provided no source on that.

Even according to the Reuters timeline, it looks like NATO/Ukraine were the aggressors and were not interested in a peaceful solution to the Weapons-in-Ukraine/Ukraine-joining-NATO situation:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220308213432/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/events-leading-up-russias-invasion-ukraine-2022-02-28/

    Dec. 17 2021: Russia presents security demands including that NATO pull back troops and weapons from eastern Europe and bar Ukraine from ever joining.

    Jan. 24 2022: NATO puts forces on standby and reinforces eastern Europe with more ships and fighter jets.

    Jan. 26: Washington responds to Russia's security demands, repeating a commitment to NATO's "open-door" policy while offering a "pragmatic evaluation" of Moscow's concerns. Two days later Russia says its demands not addressed.

    Feb. 2022: Amid growing Western fears Russia could attack Ukraine, the United States says it will send 3,000 extra troops to NATO members Poland and Romania. Washington and allies say they will not send troops to Ukraine, but warn of severe economic sanctions if Russian President Vladimir Putin takes military action.

    Feb. 21: In a TV address, Putin says Ukraine is an integral part of Russian history and has a puppet regime managed by foreign powers. Putin orders what he called peacekeeping forces into two breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine, after recognising them as independent.

    Feb. 22: The U.S., Britain and their allies sanction Russian parliament members, banks and other assets in response to Putin's troop order. Germany halts the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline project.

    Feb. 23: Russian-backed separatist leaders ask Russia for help repelling aggression from the Ukrainian army.

    Feb. 24: Putin authorizes "special military operations" in Ukraine. Russian forces begin missile and artillery attacks, striking major Ukrainian cities including Kiev.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2022, 10:52:43 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline crutonius

  • *
  • Posts: 663
  • Just a regular guy. No funny business here.
    • View Profile
Also Russia required Ukraine to give up a large part of its territory and dismantle its military.

Odd that zelensky didn't agree to that.

Incorrect. It does not say that in the link I provided. You have provided no source on that.

Even according to the Reuters timeline, it looks like NATO/Ukraine were the aggressors and were not interested in a peaceful solution:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220308213432/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/events-leading-up-russias-invasion-ukraine-2022-02-28/

    Dec. 17 2021: Russia presents security demands including that NATO pull back troops and weapons from eastern Europe and bar Ukraine from ever joining.

    Jan. 24 2022: NATO puts forces on standby and reinforces eastern Europe with more ships and fighter jets.

    Jan. 26: Washington responds to Russia's security demands, repeating a commitment to NATO's "open-door" policy while offering a "pragmatic evaluation" of Moscow's concerns. Two days later Russia says its demands not addressed.

    Feb. 2022: Amid growing Western fears Russia could attack Ukraine, the United States says it will send 3,000 extra troops to NATO members Poland and Romania. Washington and allies say they will not send troops to Ukraine, but warn of severe economic sanctions if Russian President Vladimir Putin takes military action.

    Feb. 21: In a TV address, Putin says Ukraine is an integral part of Russian history and has a puppet regime managed by foreign powers. Putin orders what he called peacekeeping forces into two breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine, after recognising them as independent.

    Feb. 22: The U.S., Britain and their allies sanction Russian parliament members, banks and other assets in response to Putin's troop order. Germany halts the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline project.

    Feb. 23: Russian-backed separatist leaders ask Russia for help repelling aggression from the Ukrainian army.

    Feb. 24: Putin authorizes "special military operations" in Ukraine. Russian forces begin missile and artillery attacks, striking major Ukrainian cities including Kiev.

I can dig it up if you want later on.  This "peace" negotiation did progress along a steady path.  Putin's demand were all over the place.  I've seen neutrality as a demand.  It almost always included disarmament as a requirement for Russia's "legitimate security concerns".  Maybe you've found a few stories where he doesn't mention it but usually he does.  He just framed his demands in such a way that neutrality was always the first thing and disarmament was in the fine print.  The media, of course, fell for it and allowed him to muddy the waters.

yeah it's super weird that ukraine doesn't want to reward the nation that is illegally annexing them with a treaty to cede sovereign territory and let them dictate ukraine's foreign policy. so weird. i simply can't understand why z is being so unreasonable.
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

*

Offline markjo

  • *
  • Posts: 7023
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
Yes, there is a direct comparison with Reagan's efforts at peace with Russia and the possibility of Ukraine's peace with Russia.
When did Reagan order a "special operation" to "liberate" or "de-Nazify" any of the Soviet countries or territories?  ???
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#firePete

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 10241
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
yeah it's super weird that ukraine doesn't want to reward the nation that is illegally annexing them with a treaty to cede sovereign territory and let them dictate ukraine's foreign policy. so weird. i simply can't understand why z is being so unreasonable.

Annexation of territory can be a result of war. Here are a list of occupations and annexations in history - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations

Russia and Ukraine are in war. Zelensky has had numerous opportunities for peace. However, he chose war.

When did Reagan order a "special operation" to "liberate" or "de-Nazify" any of the Soviet countries or territories?  ???

Reagan is known for seeking peace and friendship with Russia. He negotiated to appease Russia and come to agreement and understanding. Zelensky is known for attempting to join and bring in NATO even though he knew that it could start a war.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 01:10:40 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 9914
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
yeah it's super weird that ukraine doesn't want to reward the nation that is illegally annexing them with a treaty to cede sovereign territory and let them dictate ukraine's foreign policy. so weird. i simply can't understand why z is being so unreasonable.

Annexation of territory can be a result of war. Here are a list of occupations and annexations in history - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations

Russia and Ukraine are in war. Zelensky has had numerous opportunities for peace. However, he chose war.

He chose to have Russia invade Ukraine?
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.