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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2018, 03:53:59 PM »
Why would the air have to "decelerate to a full stop" when moving north or south?
It would have to change velocity to match the spin speed at whatever circumference. That is a change of momentum. You need to add energy into a system to achieve that ... Newton's 1st law of motion.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2018, 04:05:58 PM »
Why would the air have to "decelerate to a full stop" when moving north or south?
It would have to change velocity to match the spin speed at whatever circumference. That is a change of momentum. You need to add energy into a system to achieve that ... Newton's 1st law of motion.

...but why would it need to stop? And where would it stop?
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2018, 04:09:38 PM »
Why would the air have to "decelerate to a full stop" when moving north or south?
It would have to change velocity to match the spin speed at whatever circumference. That is a change of momentum. You need to add energy into a system to achieve that ... Newton's 1st law of motion.

...but why would it need to stop? And where would it stop?
At the North or South Pole, you'd have to be at velocity zero, with respect to earth's spin. So the speed varies from a max of 1040mph to a min of 0 in order for the air to keep up with the surface of the earth as it spins.
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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2018, 04:37:28 PM »
Why would the air have to "decelerate to a full stop" when moving north or south?
It would have to change velocity to match the spin speed at whatever circumference. That is a change of momentum. You need to add energy into a system to achieve that ... Newton's 1st law of motion.

...but why would it need to stop? And where would it stop?
At the North or South Pole, you'd have to be at velocity zero, with respect to earth's spin. So the speed varies from a max of 1040mph to a min of 0 in order for the air to keep up with the surface of the earth as it spins.

Do you believe that there are planets in our solar system?  if so, we can observe that those planets are spinning and that their rotations are not slowing.  why is the earth different, they all have atmospheres as well, many more substantial than our own?   For example you can measure the rotational speed of Jupiter by measuring how often the red spot takes to make a revolution, etc.
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2018, 04:42:27 PM »
Why would the air have to "decelerate to a full stop" when moving north or south?
It would have to change velocity to match the spin speed at whatever circumference. That is a change of momentum. You need to add energy into a system to achieve that ... Newton's 1st law of motion.

...but why would it need to stop? And where would it stop?
At the North or South Pole, you'd have to be at velocity zero, with respect to earth's spin. So the speed varies from a max of 1040mph to a min of 0 in order for the air to keep up with the surface of the earth as it spins.

Do you believe that there are planets in our solar system?  if so, we can observe that those planets are spinning and that their rotations are not slowing.  why is the earth different, they all have atmospheres as well, many more substantial than our own?   For example you can measure the rotational speed of Jupiter by measuring how often the red spot takes to make a revolution, etc.
Sure, there are planets. The earth is not a planet. Planet comes from the Greek meaning wandering star.

Why is the earth special? Well that is a 'what is the meaning of life' type question. There is no hard answer. But the earth is definitely special.

It is the only place in the whole universe we have observed complex life. It is unlike the little whirling balls in the sky. Why do none of those have life? Of the billions and billions of planets out there, not a radio signal, not a visit from anyone, absolute silence. One might hypothesise that a flat earth with a protective firmament is a prerequisite for life. And that's why earth is special and the only place we find life.
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I am Seeker of Truth

Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2018, 07:27:01 PM »
Why would the air have to "decelerate to a full stop" when moving north or south?
It would have to change velocity to match the spin speed at whatever circumference. That is a change of momentum. You need to add energy into a system to achieve that ... Newton's 1st law of motion.

You said "to a full stop" but now you talk of a change in velocity. Which is it?

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2018, 08:01:21 PM »
Why would the air have to "decelerate to a full stop" when moving north or south?
It would have to change velocity to match the spin speed at whatever circumference. That is a change of momentum. You need to add energy into a system to achieve that ... Newton's 1st law of motion.

You said "to a full stop" but now you talk of a change in velocity. Which is it?
Is this difficult for you?

The earth spins at 1037mph at the equator. 10 degrees off the equator it has slowed to 1021mph.

Below is a nice little list for you.

  0 degrees: 1,037.5646 mph (1,669.8 km/h)
10 degrees: 1,021.7837 mph (1,644.4 km/h)
20 degrees: 974.9747 mph (1,569.1 km/h)
30 degrees: 898.54154 mph (1,446.1 km/h)
40 degrees: 794.80665 mph (1,279.1 km/h)
50 degrees: 666.92197 mph (1,073.3 km/h)
60 degrees: 518.7732 mph (834.9 km/h)
70 degrees: 354.86177 mph (571.1 km/h)
80 degrees: 180.16804 mph (289.95 km/h)
90 degrees: 0 mph (0 km/h)

Because you seem unable to understand the simplest things I say, below is a childrens guide, complete with a little formula so you can work it out yourself.

https://www.thoughtco.com/speed-of-the-earth-1435093

As you can see, the velocity changes as you move towards and away from the equator and if you get to the poles, .... a full stop.
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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2018, 08:18:15 PM »
Why is the earth special? Well that is a 'what is the meaning of life' type question. There is no hard answer. But the earth is definitely special.

It is the only place in the whole universe we have observed complex life. It is unlike the little whirling balls in the sky. Why do none of those have life? Of the billions and billions of planets out there, not a radio signal, not a visit from anyone, absolute silence. One might hypothesise that a flat earth with a protective firmament is a prerequisite for life. And that's why earth is special and the only place we find life.

The universe could be teeming with life but given that the closest star to earth, Proxima Centuri, is 4 light years away, any signal would take 4 years to get there and I don't know whether any of the signals emanating from earth are powerful enough to reach it and still be detectable. And that's just the nearest star. To quote Douglas Adams:

Quote
Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is. I mean you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.

So...there may well be life out there, it's just too far away for it to visit us or contact us. Maybe. Or maybe other civilisations did rise and fall but a billion years ago, or maybe microbes are as we speak evolving on some distant planet and in a billion years there will be intelligent life there and we'll have long since killed ourselves in a nuclear war or something.

Fact is, we don't know. What we do know is in our own solar system there are 8 planets and only one of them has intelligent (kinda) life on. From our understanding of how the chemistry of life works we know that it requires liquid water (well, the only form of life we know about does, but we only have one planet's life forms to go on). None of the other planets in our solar system have liquid water so far as we know, so no life. But we are really only just scratching the surface when it comes to exploring even them, we sent a few probes to Mars and Venus, other craft have done fly-bys of other planets and moons but its only in the last 60 years at most we've had the technology to do this. Exoplanets are only just being discovered.

One of the things science has done particularly over the last couple of hundred years is show us our true place in the universe. And that is...
We live on a pretty unremarkable planet
Circling a pretty unremarkable star
In a pretty unremarkable galaxy.

There is nothing scientifically to think there is anything special about the earth. There could be way more intelligent life than us a billion light years away and we'd never know.
If you want to feel special look to philosophy and religion, not science.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2018, 08:21:52 PM »
The earth spins at 1037mph at the equator. 10 degrees off the equator it has slowed to 1021mph.

No. It 'spins' at one revolution per day, approximately. The linear speed of a point on the surface at the equator is 1037mph

Below is a nice little list for you.

  0 degrees: 1,037.5646 mph (1,669.8 km/h)
10 degrees: 1,021.7837 mph (1,644.4 km/h)
...
90 degrees: 0 mph (0 km/h)

As you can see, the velocity changes as you move towards and away from the equator and if you get to the poles, .... a full stop.

Yes, but you've switched from talking about the air in the atmosphere to the speed of points on the surface - and whilst the atmosphere in general moves with the Earth, it's still subject to localised air currents and wind generation, largely due to the rise and fall of hot and cold air, and the interaction of same with the coriolis effect.
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2018, 10:10:03 PM »
Why would the air have to "decelerate to a full stop" when moving north or south?
It would have to change velocity to match the spin speed at whatever circumference. That is a change of momentum. You need to add energy into a system to achieve that ... Newton's 1st law of motion.

...but why would it need to stop? And where would it stop?
At the North or South Pole, you'd have to be at velocity zero, with respect to earth's spin. So the speed varies from a max of 1040mph to a min of 0 in order for the air to keep up with the surface of the earth as it spins.

Do you believe that there are planets in our solar system?  if so, we can observe that those planets are spinning and that their rotations are not slowing.  why is the earth different, they all have atmospheres as well, many more substantial than our own?   For example you can measure the rotational speed of Jupiter by measuring how often the red spot takes to make a revolution, etc.
Sure, there are planets. The earth is not a planet. Planet comes from the Greek meaning wandering star.

Why is the earth special? Well that is a 'what is the meaning of life' type question. There is no hard answer. But the earth is definitely special.

It is the only place in the whole universe we have observed complex life. It is unlike the little whirling balls in the sky. Why do none of those have life? Of the billions and billions of planets out there, not a radio signal, not a visit from anyone, absolute silence. One might hypothesise that a flat earth with a protective firmament is a prerequisite for life. And that's why earth is special and the only place we find life.

That's fair enough, thanks for the thought out reply.
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Offline rabinoz

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2018, 10:07:17 PM »
Why would the air have to "decelerate to a full stop" when moving north or south?
It would have to change velocity to match the spin speed at whatever circumference. That is a change of momentum. You need to add energy into a system to achieve that ... Newton's 1st law of motion.

...but why would it need to stop? And where would it stop?
At the North or South Pole, you'd have to be at velocity zero, with respect to earth's spin. So the speed varies from a max of 1040mph to a min of 0 in order for the air to keep up with the surface of the earth as it spins.
Imagine that you have a 1.27 m diameter steel sphere (ie about a 1/10,000,000 scale earth - I know it's heavy, but this is a "thought experiment") rotating at 1000 rpm.
At its "equator" the surface speed is 239 km/hr or 149 mph,
45° from its "equator" the surface speed is 169 km/hr or 105 mph and
it's "poles"  the surface speed is zero.
 ;D assuming I've made no mistakes but it's easy to see what I mean. ;D

Why doesn't this very rigid steel rip itself to pieces or at least be impossible to turn?

Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2018, 07:14:38 AM »
An apple in a swimming pool is not an analogy for the earth and its atmosphere.

A swimming pool spinning on a turntable is a better analogy. Once the water is spinning with the pool, it doesn't slow down any faster than a solid object on the same turntable would.

Here's a video of that situation:


The air moving across the surface of the earth and needing to adjust velocities is exactly the coriolis effect, and you see pictures of it all the time, in any swirling weather system.

Offline edby

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2018, 08:00:28 AM »
thousands of people in multiple countries in multiple industries are all lying for no well explained reason, it's a bit right to call RE stupid.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds
The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many Are Smarter Than the Few and How Collective Wisdom Shapes Business, Economies, Societies and Nations, published in 2004, is a book written by James Surowiecki about the aggregation of information in groups, resulting in decisions that, he argues, are often better than could have been made by any single member of the group. The book presents numerous case studies and anecdotes to illustrate its argument, and touches on several fields, primarily economics and psychology.

The opening anecdote relates Francis Galton's surprise that the crowd at a county fair accurately guessed the weight of an ox when their individual guesses were averaged (the average was closer to the ox's true butchered weight than the estimates of most crowd members).
The quote omits to mention that the average of the crowd was closer even than the average of the experts.

Also, AATW was not appealing to popularity. He asked why thousands of people in multiple countries in multiple industries would be lying for no well explained reason.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 08:31:58 AM by edby »

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2018, 07:01:04 PM »
thousands of people in multiple countries in multiple industries are all lying for no well explained reason, it's a bit right to call RE stupid.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds
The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the Many Are Smarter Than the Few and How Collective Wisdom Shapes Business, Economies, Societies and Nations, published in 2004, is a book written by James Surowiecki about the aggregation of information in groups, resulting in decisions that, he argues, are often better than could have been made by any single member of the group. The book presents numerous case studies and anecdotes to illustrate its argument, and touches on several fields, primarily economics and psychology.

The opening anecdote relates Francis Galton's surprise that the crowd at a county fair accurately guessed the weight of an ox when their individual guesses were averaged (the average was closer to the ox's true butchered weight than the estimates of most crowd members).
The quote omits to mention that the average of the crowd was closer even than the average of the experts.

Also, AATW was not appealing to popularity. He asked why thousands of people in multiple countries in multiple industries would be lying for no well explained reason.

If you are going to invoke the wisdom of crowds and continue to ask why so many people (which is an appeal to popularity despite your objection) I'm going to hit you with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds
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alfred1

Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2018, 09:22:31 AM »
100% undebunkable proof that the earth is not flat. but read the proof before you ban me please:
if the earth was flat we would be able to see all stars from all sides of the earth. which dosen't happen. also you claim that objects that are far away can't been seen beacause human eye records ~450 Mp but then how do we see the stars that are supposed to be 0.5 from the lenght of the plate away from us. also planes aren't effected of the atmosphere beacause the gravity is stronger. we don't feel the earth's movement beacause we cannot feel speed. we can feel speed changes. take an experiment: use an elevator and close your eyes. no press the button to move the elevator. you can feel that  the elevator moves at first but then you have no idea. u still feel something beacause the elevator dosen't move at 100% stable speeds. give me proof that the earth is flat and i will debunk it for you  ;)
You can try this on a train as well. Just don't lookout of the window. Since we are travelling at  the same speed as the train/lift. then obviously we can't feel the speed. Only the initial acceleration.

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Offline BigGuyWhoKills

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #75 on: July 17, 2018, 10:34:06 PM »
So, at the surface the air must be moving with the earth then at 1040mph ... at the equator. As I move north and south, that air needs to decelerate to a full stop (well but for what must be a huge cyclone at the poles). Also as I travel up into the atmosphere, the air needs to accelerate to get round this bigger circumference. The air, according to your theory must be changing velocity to match location imperceptibly all the time else I would feel that wind rush.

Thork, you seem like you know a lot, so I'll ask you a question.  If the air is moving at 1040 MPH at the equator, and slowing to a full stop at the poles, how much airspeed change would there be per mile?

I'll help you.  You take the distance from the equator to either pole: 12,000 miles, and divide that by the difference in airspeed between the poles and the equator: 1040 MPH.  12,000 / 1040 = 0.0866.  That means the air movement slows down by 0.0866 miles per hour over the distance of a mile.

You asked why this delta is not felt.  I'll help you with that as well.  Let's say you take up about 2 feet of distance inside of one of those miles.  We should calculate how much airspeed change there is over a 2 foot distance.  To do that, we need to know how much speed change there is per foot (and then we will double that).  So take the 0.0866 and divide that by 5280 to get the delta in feet.  0.0866 / 5280 = 0.000016414.  Doubling that gives us 0.00003282 MPH!  If my math is correct, this would be about 2 inches per hour.  So that is the maximum airspeed change you would feel due to the air changing speeds between the equator and the poles.

Since I'm not as well versed as you in static electrical induction, I will leave you to do the calculations to see how many lightning bolts per second a 2 inch per hour wind would generate.  Mu hunch tells me it will not get your DeLorean back to 1985.
I am not here to convert you.  I want to know enough to be able to defend the RE model.

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2018, 12:01:33 AM »
I'm tapping out. I can't do this.

I started with the Feynman lectures to see if I could get the background electricity per square meter. I knew that as you go up, you get 100v per meter. In other words there is already a 200v difference between your feet and your nose.



you don't get electrocuted walking around because



I wanted to find his mathematical calculations so I could isolate the forces in static air and then add turbulent air at the rate we discussed. This information isn't readily available, and I'm not as smart as Richard Feynman.

I decided to tackle this a second way.

I thought if I could work out the charges on the ions from first principles for say a square meter of air, I could then add the necessary movement in later. But the maths is ... lets just say its a thesis, not a forum post.
https://www.alphalabinc.com/electrostatic-formulas/

So then I had a third idea. Why don't I just see the amount of static electricity generated by Coriolis. That is the number we are after, when all is said and done. Now I know that electrical engineers use a pseudo-Coriolis force when working out static electricity in circuits. So take the maths of that and scale it up to world size. I could then subtract it from Feynman's world battery calculation. If I got a negative number, I proved you and globe science wrong.
http://www.cartesio-episteme.net/ep8/vorticity.pdf

My conclusion is ... if I could do this and get the number for Coriolis induced atmospheric charge, I'd be on the end of a Nobel prize.

In other words, my intuition is moving billions of tons of gases around each other across the whole earth would add up to an astronomical number ... but neither you nor I will be able to debate this any further because we are both too stupid in comparison to the likes of Feynman who also never got this far with his research. Sorry, I did try. This is just beyond me.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 12:21:37 AM by Baby Thork »
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Offline BillO

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2018, 03:46:15 AM »
You are looking to move a molecule of air 40,000km every day! That's a hell of a distance for it to travel. And that takes power.
  I'll go you one better, on the RE (Real Earth) the atmosphere actually rotates faster, on  average than does the surface - at all latitudes.  Not by much, but it's there.

However, your assertion that there would some sort of wind shear going north (or south) from the equator is a fallacy.  Take a pan of water and rotate it very slowly, you don't have to go a slow as the earth, but 1 revolution an hour should do.  Tell me if you see any whirl pools or vortices form.  They won't, but the water will rotate with the pan.  The reason begin is that the differential in rotational speed as you go north or south (or across the pan) is tiny - much lower than the random fluctuations in the speed of the fluids caused by turbulences and thermal effects.
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I DO NOT NEED DATA, I'M PRETTY SURE I'M RIGHT!!!!

You think something is true, and that's good enough for you.

Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2018, 08:29:14 AM »
The earth is constantly spinning, there is no friction which tries to stop the spin.
The air is spinning with the earth, there is no friction which tries to stop the air.

If we assumed a starting point, where the air was not moving but the earth was spinning as it is now:
  • We would get 1000 mph winds at the equator.
  • The wind would slow down the earth due to friction by a tiny bit
  • The earth would speed up the wind due to friction by a large amount
  • After a long time the earth and the atmosphere would spin at the same speed, the earth would only spin a tiny bit slower having lost some kinetic energy to speed up the air
  • They would now spin at the same rate basically forever, as there is no friction slowing them down

How is this so hard to understand for flat earthers.

Speed does not require power when there is no friction. Acceleration requires power.
Look up spinning tops in a vacuum, they spin for way longer because there is way less friction in vacuum.
In the complete vacuum of space, where there is no friction, a ball can spin forever without requiring any external force.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 08:44:45 AM by SphericalEarther »

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: 100% undebunkable
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2018, 12:04:24 PM »
However, your assertion that there would some sort of wind shear going north (or south) from the equator is a fallacy.
Assuming none of the air moves ever and every atom stays exactly where it is, as though it were a solid ... you'd still be wrong. We see shear forces even in the solid and liquid of a round earth. This is why the earth bulges at the equator according to RE.

If the air moves North or South, that air has mass. And you need to apply a force to either speed it up or slow it down. This as mentioned is just simple Newtonian physics.

Speed does not require power when there is no friction. Acceleration requires power.
Correct, which is why if you accelerate or decelerate the average speed of air as it moves North or South (and it will because of Coriolis, even if you exclude the Hadley Cell effect and trade winds due to continental/ocean temperature differences) you have a rate of change. And rates of change require power (Newton).

I get it. Air is hard to imagine. It is invisible. But its turbulent and is moves over and over itself as it spins with earth. Maybe this will help you visualise rotating air moving around itself in a chaos type format.


Now the real reason is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_shear

And this occurs because earth spins *hint: you don't want to deny this, you want to accept and prove it if the earth is to be round*. I don't mind if you round earthers get the shape of earth wrong, but make sure you understand how your theory works at least.

Without accepting wind sheer caused by spin, you blow away a huge ROUND earth proof. Not that in 10 years anyone has ever brought this up ... but hey, I'm not on your side.

Wind changes direction with altitude ... and it tends to 'back' in the Northern hemisphere (anti-clockwise) and 'veer' in the Southern hemisphere (clockwise).

This is known to all pilots around the world. It helps you guess the wind direction at certain altitudes if you don't have the data.

Please read the short piece on geostrophic and cyclostrophic winds below. Note the friction mentioned (ie gonna get static build up).
https://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/meteorology/section6.html

Note also the effect of friction on the surface of the earth (setion 6.2). Yes, you keep denying such a thing exists. Like we are in some kind of perpetual motion machine. The air will act like a giant brake on the earth as mentioned before.
If you want proof here is someone testing that theory in an aircraft.




Some basics about wind here.


Quote from: https://www.weather.gov/source/zhu/ZHU_Training_Page/winds/Wx_Terms/Flight_Environment.htm
VEERING AND BACKING

The wind veers when it changes direction clockwise. Example: The surface wind is blowing from 270°. At 2000 feet it is blowing from 280°. It has changed in a right-hand, or clockwise, direction.

The wind backs when it changes direction anti-clockwise. Example: The wind direction at 2000 feet is 090° and at 3000 feet is 085°. It is changing in a left-hand, or anti-clockwise, direction.

In a descent from several thousand feet above the ground to ground level, the wind will usually be found to back and also decrease in velocity, as the effect of surface friction becomes apparent. In a climb from the surface to several thousand feet AGL, the wind will veer and increase.


So ... once you learn about weather properly, I want to know a) why the earth hasn't come to a stop with all this surface friction slowing it down b) why I'm not being hit by lightning bolts every 3 seconds with all this static build up. You will have to learn more than I have shown you to answer those questions ... and we can all assume the earth is flat until you do.
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