[Rama Set]

https://www.businessinsider.com/women-accused-trump-sexual-misconduct-list-2017-12?%2F=#jessica-leeds-1

Ask and ye shall be provided.

[Roundy]

The notion that the media never brings these things up again is bunk too. I've seen several pieces over the course of the past several years reminding us that Trump's latest sin (whatever it happened to be at that moment) is not his only sin.

[honk]

Trump found dozens of women who were willing to accuse Bill Clinton of rape and brought them over to some of the debates with Hillary.

It was three women (along with a fourth who was apparently mad at Hillary for representing her rapist in court), and all of them had publicly accused Clinton back in the nineties.

There's a reason we don't rely on personal incredulity when it comes to such serious accusations.

Who says we don't? I think if the alternative is incredible enough - such as a large number of women all falsely accusing Trump, and only Trump, as if he's the only controversial businessman/politician in the world, of sexual misconduct - then personal incredulity is a perfectly valid reason to make a judgment about, yes, even serious accusations. I wouldn't support that in any kind of legal context, because we don't put people on trial for having poor character or probably having committed a non-specific crime in the past. Fortunately, we aren't talking about that.

You may find it unlikely that so many women would be bought/convinced to put forward a false accusation, but I find it unlikely that so many women kept quiet until the very moment Trump was about to become a hell of a lot more popular and powerful. That they would all simultaneously, unprompted, choose the very worst moment for them to speak up... that defies all logic. They deliberately waited for the time they were least likely to succeed, to get justice, because... reasons?

This doesn't make the case for the women being dishonest or otherwise unreliable. The premise of it being so illogical to make these accusations of Trump at that particular point of time is unchanged regardless of whether or not the women were telling the truth. Either way, Trump was about to become far more powerful and popular. Either way, their accusations were extremely unlikely to succeed in bringing him down.

Nevertheless, the reasons for why they came forward when they did (presumably you're referring to October 2016, when the bulk of them were reported on) are pretty straightforward. Trump was at his highest profile, his behavior towards women had recently come under scrutiny with a NYT piece on the subject and the Access Hollywood tape, and Trump had flatly denied ever sexually assaulting women on national television. A number of his accusers have cited that as the moment they decided to speak up:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/13/us/politics/donald-trump-women.html

https://people.com/politics/donald-trump-attacked-people-writer/

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/national-govt--politics/palm-beach-post-exclusive-local-woman-says-trump-groped-her/aLcLWjmxbmudQMc7TXuxiK/

That's really not suspicious. It's entirely understandable.

[Pete Svarrior]

This doesn't make the case for the women being dishonest or otherwise unreliable.

We don't need to make any such case. It's the accuser that needs to make the case against the accused. Innocent until proven guilty, y'know?

Who says we don't?

The US legal system, and seemingly public opinion, given that you're currently criticising it for doing just that. It looks like people don't like throwing legal accusations around in a "fortunately not at all legal haha I'm just accusing a man of rape" way.

Jesus, listen to yourself. You're pretty much saying "I know there is no legal way of getting Trump in trouble without evidence, but maybe we should publicly lynch him and try to destroy his life anyway?" We're so, so lucky that your position holds so little credibility in society. It'd be a proper dystopia.

[Roundy]

Trump was at his highest profile, his behavior towards women had recently come under scrutiny with a NYT piece on the subject and the Access Hollywood tape, and Trump had flatly denied ever ppsexually assaulting women on national television. A number of his accusers have cited that as the moment they decided to speak up

This is largely what makes it look so staged, and so much like a purely political stunt. First the Access Hollywood tape where Trump essentially brags about sexually assaulting women... it's like someone in the Hillary campaign said "Ok, we have him on tape admitting he does it... now let's find as many women as possible to corroborate it and people will have to believe it!"

Am I being cynical? Maybe, but I don't think so. I think it's the more likely scenario that those women came forward as a stunt to help Hillary get elected than that they all at that moment decided to come forward because they were stunned that Trump would dare deny that he sexually assaulted women on TV during a tight presidential race. The former may seem cynical, but the latter just sounds naive.

[honk]

We don't need to make any such case. It's the accuser that needs to make the case against the accused. Innocent until proven guilty, y'know?

...you're the one who brought it up as an apparent counterargument. Seems kind of weird to raise a counterargument and then decline to follow through with it, but you can do what you want. It's not my counterargument; I don't particularly care.

The US legal system, and seemingly public opinion, given that you're currently criticising it for doing just that. It looks like people don't like throwing legal accusations around in a "fortunately not at all legal haha I'm just accusing a man of rape" way.

Jesus, listen to yourself. You're pretty much saying "I know there is no legal way of getting Trump in trouble without evidence, but maybe we should publicly lynch him and try to destroy his life anyway?" We're so, so lucky that your position holds so little credibility in society. It'd be a proper dystopia.

I don't know how many more times I can stress to you that Trump is not on trial and judgments like these carry no legal weight. Politicians are judged for what they say and do, or what people believe they've said and done, all the time. People make judgments about these things, they talk about their judgments, and they vote accordingly. That's how it works. It's politics. There is no court of political scandals where the due process rights of politicians to maintain their current level of political strength are protected. People simply make decisions. If people think that a politician was made to look dumb in a debate, their political status may suffer. If people think that a politician cheated on his wife, his political status may suffer. And if people think that a politician has probably committed sexual assault in the past, his political status may certainly suffer. Trump will not go to jail for probably having sexually assaulted an undisclosed person at some point in the past any more than he would go to jail for looking dumb in a debate or cheating on his wife. The only thing he has to lose is the upcoming election.

Am I being cynical? Maybe, but I don't think so. I think it's the more likely scenario that those women came forward as a stunt to help Hillary get elected than that they all at that moment decided to come forward because they were stunned that Trump would dare deny that he sexually assaulted women on TV during a tight presidential race. The former may seem cynical, but the latter just sounds naive.

I'd say it was more anger at his denial than shock.

[Pete Svarrior]

...you're the one who brought it up as an apparent counterargument

I didn't. If you thought I did, you misunderstood my intentions.

[AATW]

Trump is almost certainly a sexual predator

No credible evidence has been presented to date.

Well, apart from him admitting it here of course



I mean, obviously it was a slightly jokey exchange but combine it with the "grab 'em by the pussy" tape, the comments he has made about his own daughter (I mean...wow!), the allegations around Miss Teen USA, the other women who have made allegations and the general way he talks about women...
At very best he's a sleaze and has used his position of power to get away with things which most people would not ("when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything."

I mean, whether he's actually done anything which would see him convicted is debatable but his attitude to women and his behaviour around them is not ok.

[Roundy]

I have to say, if the Republicans can make this about sexual assault, and they can pull off a win given Trump's own past, it would be hilarious.

It looks like that could be possible too. Idk, maybe Democrats are more concerned with morality and ethics than Republicans. It seems ironic, given Republicans' Bible-happy, "family friendly" ways, but I really can't think of another reason why this might hurt Biden when Trump escaped the same thing multiplied unscathed.

[totallackey]

I have to say, if the Republicans can make this about sexual assault, and they can pull off a win given Trump's own past, it would be hilarious.

It looks like that could be possible too. Idk, maybe Democrats are more concerned with morality and ethics than Republicans. It seems ironic, given Republicans' Bible-happy, "family friendly" ways, but I really can't think of another reason why this might hurt Biden when Trump escaped the same thing multiplied unscathed.

As I have written many times before, this Tara Reade thing isn't even on the mind of most voters in the US.

Tara Reade ranks on the very bottom of the list when it comes to a reason to ignore Joe Biden as a legitimate candidate for POTUS.

Bill Clinton taught most people 50 and up in the US that vote it doesn't matter whether you are a rapist or not...

[Roundy]

I have to say, if the Republicans can make this about sexual assault, and they can pull off a win given Trump's own past, it would be hilarious.

It looks like that could be possible too. Idk, maybe Democrats are more concerned with morality and ethics than Republicans. It seems ironic, given Republicans' Bible-happy, "family friendly" ways, but I really can't think of another reason why this might hurt Biden when Trump escaped the same thing multiplied unscathed.

As I have written many times before, this Tara Reade thing isn't even on the mind of most voters in the US.

I think it is, now, because she's been in the news so much. But I hope you're right anyway. Maybe by the time the election comes up it will be a distant memory.

[Lord Dave]

I have to say, if the Republicans can make this about sexual assault, and they can pull off a win given Trump's own past, it would be hilarious.

It looks like that could be possible too. Idk, maybe Democrats are more concerned with morality and ethics than Republicans. It seems ironic, given Republicans' Bible-happy, "family friendly" ways, but I really can't think of another reason why this might hurt Biden when Trump escaped the same thing multiplied unscathed.

As I have written many times before, this Tara Reade thing isn't even on the mind of most voters in the US.

I think it is, now, because she's been in the news so much. But I hope you're right anyway. Maybe by the time the election comes up it will be a distant memory.

Trump blew his October surprise too early?

Also, isn't Trump cheering for Biden on this?  I'd think that hurts him(biden) more than anything.

[Roundy]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/time-americans-are-doing-nothing/611056/

Well, apparently having a cartoonish buffoon for a President and being a bumbling laughingstock to the rest of the world could have lasting negative repercussions as far as our position of power on the world stage. I mean, who could have ever predicted that?

Trump's voters wanted chaos, and that's what we've got. So good going guys.

[totallackey]

I have to say, if the Republicans can make this about sexual assault, and they can pull off a win given Trump's own past, it would be hilarious.

It looks like that could be possible too. Idk, maybe Democrats are more concerned with morality and ethics than Republicans. It seems ironic, given Republicans' Bible-happy, "family friendly" ways, but I really can't think of another reason why this might hurt Biden when Trump escaped the same thing multiplied unscathed.

As I have written many times before, this Tara Reade thing isn't even on the mind of most voters in the US.

I think it is, now, because she's been in the news so much. But I hope you're right anyway. Maybe by the time the election comes up it will be a distant memory.

Yeah, as is most of the talking points for Joe as he tries to elaborate on them during interviews...LMMFAO!

[Roundy]

Yeah, as is most of the talking points for Joe as he tries to elaborate on them during interviews...LMMFAO!

https://mobile.twitter.com/atrupar/status/1254871932954083333

Yeah, quite an improvement.   

[Roundy]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll-idUSKBN22I005

Why is "coronavirus response" even a thing when comparing these two? One is the President of the United States who's able to give daily press briefings from the White House, and is actually active in the response to the crisis (for what that's worth); the other is a civilian stuck in his house in Delaware.

Gee, I wonder which one has an edge here. 

[honk]

I have to say, if the Republicans can make this about sexual assault, and they can pull off a win given Trump's own past, it would be hilarious.

It looks like that could be possible too. Idk, maybe Democrats are more concerned with morality and ethics than Republicans. It seems ironic, given Republicans' Bible-happy, "family friendly" ways, but I really can't think of another reason why this might hurt Biden when Trump escaped the same thing multiplied unscathed.

It may not be due to ideology so much as it is just a reflection of the way the two parties are run, but there's no doubt that Democrats are quicker to discipline their members over ethical transgressions and give in to public pressure. If they were Democrats, Duncan Hunter and Greg Gianforte would have been made to resign immediately, Kavanaugh's nomination would have been promptly withdrawn in the face of sexual assault allegations, and Roy Moore either would have been made to drop out of the Senate race or wholly condemned by the party. And if he were a Republican, Al Franken would never have been made to resign. So I do think it's entirely possible that an allegation like this could genuinely sink Biden while Trump skates by unscathed. And yes, that would be morbidly hilarious, and perhaps even appropriate for the time we're living in.

[Roundy]

I have to say, if the Republicans can make this about sexual assault, and they can pull off a win given Trump's own past, it would be hilarious.

It looks like that could be possible too. Idk, maybe Democrats are more concerned with morality and ethics than Republicans. It seems ironic, given Republicans' Bible-happy, "family friendly" ways, but I really can't think of another reason why this might hurt Biden when Trump escaped the same thing multiplied unscathed.

It may not be due to ideology so much as it is just a reflection of the way the two parties are run, but there's no doubt that Democrats are quicker to discipline their members over ethical transgressions and give in to public pressure. If they were Democrats, Duncan Hunter and Greg Gianforte would have been made to resign immediately, Kavanaugh's nomination would have been promptly withdrawn in the face of sexual assault allegations, and Roy Moore either would have been made to drop out of the Senate race or wholly condemned by the party. And if he were a Republican, Al Franken would never have been made to resign. So I do think it's entirely possible that an allegation like this could genuinely sink Biden while Trump skates by unscathed. And yes, that would be morbidly hilarious, and perhaps even appropriate for the time we're living in.

I think Democrats are concerned with being "the good guys" while Republicans just don't seem to care if that's how they're perceived. Republicans always seem prepared to fight dirty, often right out in the light of day. Generally speaking they just don't care and neither do their constituents.

[JSS]

I think Democrats are concerned with being "the good guys" while Republicans just don't seem to care if that's how they're perceived. Republicans always seem prepared to fight dirty, often right out in the light of day. Generally speaking they just don't care and neither do their constituents.

I think when you are the side that's fighting AGAINST literal Nazi's and White Supremacists, you can take off the quotes.

[honk]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/07/politics/michael-flynn-prosecution/index.html

Flynn literally pled guilty twice. His conviction and sentencing was all but guaranteed, and for the prosecution to essentially concede a case they were about to win makes no sense. Meaning this obviously wasn't a decision made out of good-faith legal considerations. If Trump wants to pardon his cronies, he should just pardon them. Doing it like this is so petty - it's not enough that Flynn not be punished; it also has to look like the Justice Department actually agreed that Flynn shouldn't be prosecuted and withdrew of their own accord.