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Offline Rushy

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Eugenics
« on: November 17, 2021, 03:48:26 PM »
An author, Iain Banks, whose books I have been reading, turns out to have some pretty interesting beliefs. He is a very blunt supporter of eugenics and yet he's also obviously supportive of communism. The real communism, the stateless, classless society kind; as opposed to the authoritarian tankie meme communism we have today.

In his books, there is an ultra-mega-super-advanced society that has no government, no classes, no scarcity of any form. Labor is required by no one; it is all done by fully autonomous machines. There is no form of regulation or laws, even against murder or rape. People just... don't do that (most of the time). Why? Well, because they were programmed not to do it!

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/05/15/iain.banks/#cnnSTCText

Quote
CNN: One of the most compelling aspects of the Culture's society is that it's post-scarcity: no one wants for anything, people aren't hungry, everyone is clothed. Do you think it's within humanity's nature to build a society like that?

Iain M. Banks: Arguably not. This is why the Culture isn't us. I thought long and hard about this long before the books were published and decided, that the Culture wasn't going to be us in the future, it would be humanoid, they could kind of pass for us, because I'm not sure that we are.

It's a very pessimistic thing to say that we do seem to be wedded to war and destruction and torture and racism and sexism -- all the horrible things, all the xenophobic things -- we seem to have a xenophobic gene sequence. I think we should genetically modify ourselves, frankly -- if we could identify the bit that causes all the horrible things we can knock it out and become nicer people.

Normally, we have eugenics arguments spouted by what most would call 'right-leaning' ideologies such as Fascism. It's interesting for an author to have written such an amazing communist utopia, then turn around and say the only way we can achieve it is by reprogramming humanity into it.

I'm not even sure he's wrong. Is such a society possible without some hardcore gene editing changing the face of humanity? Is there a 'selfish gene' we can delete? Maybe eugenics isn't that bad! Is an idealistic utopia worth the cost of programming people to be inclined to enjoy it?

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2021, 05:06:11 PM »
Its possible but its not 'nice' that ends up happening, its laziness.

Look at the movie WallE.  Thats a society with no scarcity(probably), everyone is clothed and fed and sheltered.  No one needs to work.

What happens?  Laziness.  People end up not murdering or being greedy purely because it takes too much effort.
We could absolutely breed out the impulse to murder or steal, but those impulses come from want and desire and drive.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Pongo

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2021, 06:59:36 PM »
We could absolutely breed out the impulse to murder or steal

How do you know this? Do you have sources or are you just making things up?

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Offline stack

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2021, 07:28:09 PM »
You'd have to breed out jealousy, greed, revenge, the impulses that may cause someone to want to murder or steal.

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Offline Pongo

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2021, 07:33:45 PM »
You'd have to breed out jealousy, greed, revenge, the impulses that may cause someone to want to murder or steal.

Would probably have to breed out lust too.  ::)

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Offline xasop

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2021, 07:39:47 PM »
Would probably have to breed out lust too.  ::)
Yes, let's just breed out the desire to breed. That sounds very compatible with Darwinism.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Pongo

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2021, 07:41:19 PM »
Would probably have to breed out lust too.  ::)
Yes, let's just breed out the desire to breed. That sounds very compatible with Darwinism.

Lust is a huge motivator for murder. I didn't know you were pro-murder. If we are breeding out all these other negative aspects of humanity why not go all the way?

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Offline xasop

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2021, 07:50:45 PM »
Lust is a huge motivator for murder. I didn't know you were pro-murder. If we are breeding out all these other negative aspects of humanity why not go all the way?
I haven't expressed my position on this issue one way or another. I merely pointed out that breeding out lust implies preventing people who want to breed from doing so, while forcing people who don't want to breed to breed anyway. If that is what you are advocating for, then fine, but it's best to be upfront about that.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2021, 08:37:39 AM »
We could absolutely breed out the impulse to murder or steal

How do you know this? Do you have sources or are you just making things up?

We've bread out multiple undesirable traits in sheep, cows, pigs, cats, and dogs.
It seems arrogant to think that humans are immune to selective breeding, given other animals are not.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Pongo

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2021, 02:53:31 PM »
We could absolutely breed out the impulse to murder or steal

How do you know this? Do you have sources or are you just making things up?

We've bread out multiple undesirable traits in sheep, cows, pigs, cats, and dogs.
It seems arrogant to think that humans are immune to selective breeding, given other animals are not.

I see your 5 examples of domesticated animals and raise you a low-effort list I found on the internet of 10 that we failed to domesticate. https://listverse.com/2019/02/06/10-animals-we-failed-to-domesticate/

I cannot stress enough how little effort I put into finding this list. I didn't even scroll to the bottom after opening it. I barely spot checked it to ensure it was sending the message I wanted to send. I just clacked out a fast Google search, clicked the first link, and pasted it here. This explanation, in fact, is already an expenditure of effort orders of magnitude more than was put into finding that link. And this reply is woefully low-effort.

It makes one wonder how difficult it would have been for you to have struck out on a similar fact-finding journey before pouring your unfounded nonsense all over these pristine forums.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 03:12:46 PM by Pongo »

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2021, 03:02:46 PM »
We could absolutely breed out the impulse to murder or steal, but those impulses come from want and desire and drive.

Those are both two pretty big assumptions. Are murdering and stealing just fundamentally results of some 'incorrect' genes getting passed around? Do some populations exhibit those genes more than others?

You'd have to breed out jealousy, greed, revenge, the impulses that may cause someone to want to murder or steal.

There are plenty of murders and thefts that don't have anything to do with those emotions or any emotion at all. Kleptomania, for example, has not been shown to correlate with the actual desire of the item in question. What you've stated is the observation of criminal behavior through a lens of neurotypical motives. Generally speaking, there isn't a lot to go on in regards to the fundamental reason for many crimes, as people in general have a hard time explaining why they do what they do. The brain itself still comes across as a 'black box' of sensory inputs and outputs. What occurs between the two is mostly unknown aside from a few cursory correlations.

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Offline stack

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2021, 03:40:20 PM »
You'd have to breed out jealousy, greed, revenge, the impulses that may cause someone to want to murder or steal.

There are plenty of murders and thefts that don't have anything to do with those emotions or any emotion at all.

Agreed. I should have caveated with one would have to breed out some of the causal emotions as well, in addition to somehow handle many a situation where a crime is just a crime without a specific or direct motivation.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2021, 06:13:10 PM »
We could absolutely breed out the impulse to murder or steal

How do you know this? Do you have sources or are you just making things up?

We've bread out multiple undesirable traits in sheep, cows, pigs, cats, and dogs.
It seems arrogant to think that humans are immune to selective breeding, given other animals are not.

I see your 5 examples of domesticated animals and raise you a low-effort list I found on the internet of 10 that we failed to domesticate. https://listverse.com/2019/02/06/10-animals-we-failed-to-domesticate/

I cannot stress enough how little effort I put into finding this list. I didn't even scroll to the bottom after opening it. I barely spot checked it to ensure it was sending the message I wanted to send. I just clacked out a fast Google search, clicked the first link, and pasted it here. This explanation, in fact, is already an expenditure of effort orders of magnitude more than was put into finding that link. And this reply is woefully low-effort.

It makes one wonder how difficult it would have been for you to have struck out on a similar fact-finding journey before pouring your unfounded nonsense all over these pristine forums.

Your low effort is quite evident.
Had you read the article, you'd have seen how the title is misleading, the domestication failed for a variety of reasons, and we are not talking about domestication.  So let me put some effort into it since I did, in fact, read the article.

Of the 10:
Zebras were difficult to capture and tame and when they were, they were not useful enough to be domesticated.  Also they attracted predators.
Great White Sharks kill themselves in captivity.  None have lasted more than 2 weeks with most dying within days.
Dingos were partially domesticated but were not selectively bred for specific traits and eventually were put back into the wild by the native africans. (this was a few thousand years ago)
The moose is difficult to capture and they are smart enough to see death and run away.  So useless for battle mounts or slaughter houses.
Currently a farm in Russia has some that are somewhat domesticated and uses them for moose's milk.
Raccoons escape which makes domesticating them very difficult.
Foxes were domesticated in the past but they died off and current efforts are partically successful.  Currently foxes are displaying dog like behavior at the 50th generation but are considered trained, not domesticated.
Elephants are trained but are not selectively bred and thus not considered domesticated. (Domestication requires selective breeding)
Bonobos domesticated themselves.
Hippos can run faster than the fastest human and can kill more or less anyone. Anyone who tried to tame one has died.
Coyotes are naturally becoming domesticated.  Attempts to domesticate them by hand has been few due to their avoidance of humans and the disease they carry.  You can cross breed them with a female dog and that usually works but its not a true coyote.

Now that that's out of the way, your article is pointless anyway.

HUMANS ARE ALREADY DOMESTICATED.
We domesticate ourselves.  We domesticate our children.  We are the definition of domestication.  So humans don't need to be domesticated, we just need to keep breeding out undesirable traits and breeding in desirable ones. 

If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Eugenics
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2021, 06:22:50 PM »
We could absolutely breed out the impulse to murder or steal, but those impulses come from want and desire and drive.
Those are both two pretty big assumptions. Are murdering and stealing just fundamentally results of some 'incorrect' genes getting passed around? Do some populations exhibit those genes more than others?
No, they are not 'incorrect' genes.  We are naturally aggressive creatures.  We didn't get to the top of the food chain by being prey, you know.  Murder is part of us and is in our DNA.  Its not 'incorrect', its supposed to be there. 
But we also have empathy.  Empathy helps to keep the murder impulses in check, most of the time.  And theft are usually just want or need overriding our domestication.  Or we rationalize it in a favorable way.
I'm sure most people have wanted to just punch someone or wish they could just monstertruck themselves over everyone in traffic.
And we've all seen things we want but can't have.  Sometimes we want them too much and will steal.

In cases of crime, justification plays a part.  Some are mentally ill and will just murder or steal without remorse or guilt because they are psychopaths and lack empathy.  Others need to justify it to themselves.  "I'm doing the right thing." "It's to save America" "God wants me to wipe out these heathens" "She doesn't need that sweater." "The store can handle a loss, its fine." "If I don't take that bread, I'll starve to death."

Just removing scarcity would go a long way to removing crime.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.