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Online Pete Svarrior

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #100 on: November 20, 2021, 10:24:20 PM »
The Supreme Court has fucked up time and time again over the years.
Ah, yes, the entire legal system is wrong, and only you (with your extensive qualifications in law) are correct. Truly a hallmark of good debate.

Read the actual text of the 2nd Amendment.
What does that have to do with anything in a case law/common law system?

Nonetheless:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Which part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed" confuses you? Is it "people"? Or are you just hyperfocusing on the prefatory clause of that sentence?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 10:32:34 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #101 on: November 20, 2021, 10:32:11 PM »
 
You have no  evidence he was polishing the rifle in his mom's house.
Just another lie.

So this punk, a product of the mainstream media, sat in his bedroom of his mom's house, studying algebra, doing his chores, watching action movies, dreaming of being a cop, getting hopped up on Fox News.

Right.

I'm entitled to my opinion and if it offends the right wing snowflakes that made this entitled, spoiled piece of shit their hero, I'm glad.

This affluenza ridden brat is the reason liberals don't want us to have guns.
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2021, 10:39:27 PM »
The Supreme Court has fucked up time and time again over the years.
Ah, yes, the entire legal system is wrong, and only you (with your extensive qualifications in law) are correct. Truly a hallmark of good debate.

Read the actual text of the 2nd Amendment.
What does that have to do with anything in a case law/common law system?

Nonetheless:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Which part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed" confuses you? Is it "people"? Or are you just hyperfocusing on the prefatory clause of that sentence?

I'm sorry, but I can't see this underage delinquent wandering around with a gun being part of the founding father's vision.

I didn't say the whole legal system is wrong,  you're saying it's completely right.


The other kid with a gun didn't get a chance to discuss the constitution. It was within our rights to have law enforcement gun him down.
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Online Pete Svarrior

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2021, 10:49:46 PM »
I'm sorry, but I can't see this underage delinquent wandering around with a gun being part of the founding father's vision.
Considering the Founding Father's (just one?) times, he would not be an "underage delinquent". He'd be a "man" by quite some margin. I'm not sure adding a lack of awareness of history to a terrible legal argument really helps your case.

I didn't say the whole legal system is wrong,  you're saying it's completely right.
Don't try to strawman me. It will not work, and you'll just make yourself look sillier in the process. You said the following, word for word:

The 2nd Amendment says nothing about individual gun rights.

This is directly at odds both with the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (you know, the thing that's legally binding) and with its literal text ("the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"). Regardless of how much it affects your "snowflake" feelings, and regardless of how much you retcon what you mean by "the 2nd Amendment", you were incorrect.

The other kid with a gun didn't get a chance to discuss the constitution.
This is an interesting, if extremely amateurish, rhetorical device you're using there. "Someone else was subject to a grave injustice, therefore Rittenhouse should also be subjected to it." I'm sure you can see just how unhelpful that sounds. Speak truth to power and demand justice for the guy that got gunned down. Don't try to bring everyone else down to the level you consider unjust.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 10:52:53 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2021, 11:49:30 PM »
I'm sorry, but I can't see this underage delinquent wandering around with a gun being part of the founding father's vision.
Considering the Founding Father's (just one?) times, he would not be an "underage delinquent". He'd be a "man" by quite some margin. I'm not sure adding a lack of awareness of history to a terrible legal argument really helps your case.

I didn't say the whole legal system is wrong,  you're saying it's completely right.
Don't try to strawman me. It will not work, and you'll just make yourself look sillier in the process. You said the following, word for word:

The 2nd Amendment says nothing about individual gun rights.

This is directly at odds both with the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (you know, the thing that's legally binding) and with its literal text ("the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"). Regardless of how much it affects your "snowflake" feelings, and regardless of how much you retcon what you mean by "the 2nd Amendment", you were incorrect.

The other kid with a gun didn't get a chance to discuss the constitution.
This is an interesting, if extremely amateurish, rhetorical device you're using there. "Someone else was subject to a grave injustice, therefore Rittenhouse should also be subjected to it." I'm sure you can see just how unhelpful that sounds. Speak truth to power and demand justice for the guy that got gunned down. Don't try to bring everyone else down to the level you consider unjust.

I applaud your parsing of my arguments (I don't care about looking silly and don't care about who's at my level.) I also don't care about people's judgements about my opinions, we're on a forum where people argue that the earth is flat.

The laws can be changed, the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is bullshit. Gun violence is surging and I don't accept that we have to just live with it. I don't accept that more guns on the streets are going to make it better. I don't accept that when that punk took his gun and started walking the streets that there was anything righteous or patriotic about it. If it was legal that means the laws are fucked and need to be changed. I own guns and I can say whatever the legal system says about it, the current state  of it is fucked.

In my town, we had a dozen people shot this weekend and it was a slow weekend. Perhaps, we need to advocate for broadening gun rights in your town.

Again, I'm sure your legal arguments will come back to my silliness or my reading comprehension but this situation is fucked up and needs action.

Did you know Russia was donating money to the NRA under the Trump administration? The NRA took the money because it's money. The Russian's gave the money for two reasons. So their spies Boris and Natasha could rub shoulders with high profile Republicans at the events. Also, it is in Russia's best interest to flood the streets of America with cheap accessible guns and the conservative movement is helping them do it.
I supported Republicans for decades but this idea that every freak in the street gets a gun is bullshit. I have to have a license for my dog, I have to have liability insurance for my car. Carrying a weapon may be a right but it should carry responsibility, just like owning a dog or driving a car. Fuck the Republicans, they are dead to me and it is my right to do everything I can to get them out of office.

BTW, this isn't about 'truth to power'. When a freak is wandering the streets with a gun, I want him taken out.  I pay taxes so I don't have to be the one to do it.



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Online Pete Svarrior

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #105 on: November 20, 2021, 11:57:22 PM »
[I] don't care about who's at my level.
You also seemingly don't care about reading comprehension.

The laws can be changed, the current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is bullshit.
This is entirely irrelevant to what you said so far. You made claims about what the 2nd Amendment does (or doesn't) say. Now you're saying you're simply against the 2nd Amendment. I agree with you on the latter. You're just completely incorrect on the former.

Again, I'm sure your legal arguments will come back to my silliness or my reading comprehension
Guilty as charged!

I supported Republicans for decades
I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

BTW, this isn't about 'truth to power'. When a freak is wandering the streets with a gun, I want him taken out.  I pay taxes so I don't have to be the one to do it.
I have no idea what you're talking about at this point, and I suspect neither do you.
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Offline crutonius

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #106 on: November 21, 2021, 01:49:32 AM »
And before the conservatard snowflakes start whining about the 2nd Amendment, The 2nd Amendment says nothing about individual gun rights. The citizens have a right to bear arms in the form of a well regulated militia as a balance of power against the Feds. It doesn't mean some punk gets to wander the streets at night with a rifle.
I'm not sure that quite aligns with the actual state of the law. Perhaps you could point towards some precedent of the 2nd Amendment being interpreted this way by US courts?

This is known.

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/1002107670/historian-uncovers-the-racist-roots-of-the-2nd-amendment
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Second-Amendment/Origins-and-historical-antecedents

Quote
On the crafting of the Second Amendment at the Constitutional Convention

It was in response to the concerns coming out of the Virginia ratification convention for the Constitution, led by Patrick Henry and George Mason, that a militia that was controlled solely by the federal government would not be there to protect the slave owners from an enslaved uprising. And ... James Madison crafted that language in order to mollify the concerns coming out of Virginia and the anti-Federalists, that they would still have full control over their state militias — and those militias were used in order to quell slave revolts. ... The Second Amendment really provided the cover, the assurances that Patrick Henry and George Mason needed, that the militias would not be controlled by the federal government, but that they would be controlled by the states and at the beck and call of the states to be able to put down these uprisings.

The interpretation of the second amendment as some kind of hedge against tyranny is relatively recent.  You can see why.  We really don't want to admit that it's there to put down slave revolts.  So we rebranded its intent.

It's also interesting to note that any time a large group of black people start exercising this right then conservatives start to get very reasonable very quickly regarding gun control.

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Offline Pongo

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #107 on: November 21, 2021, 04:55:16 AM »
I think this is the link that Dr. Van Nostrand wanted to link? Not sure why they took a hard left into crazy when info like this is readily available.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/politics-changed-the-reading-of-the-second-amendmentand-can-change-it-again/amp

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Online Pete Svarrior

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #108 on: November 21, 2021, 10:31:54 AM »
The interpretation of the second amendment as some kind of hedge against tyranny is relatively recent.  You can see why.  We really don't want to admit that it's there to put down slave revolts.  So we rebranded its intent.
Yes, the original intent was that every white man would be free to carry a gun. And boy, did they buy guns. And boy, did they use them.

The actual history is indeed much uglier than the Good Doctor portrayed it as - I held back on making crude jokes about how the black kid in his example wouldn't have gotten shot for carrying a gun if only white people carried guns, because I didn't think it would be helpful, because that reasoning was obscured from the actual text of the 2nd Amendment, and it's (prima facie) not present in modern case law. I'm not sure why you thought adding this to the discussion would help tbh - were you just trying to kick Dr. while he's down?

Nonetheless, there was never a period in the 2nd Amendment history when it solely applied to well-regulated groups of any sort, or when it disallowed [white, male] individuals from owning or carrying guns.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 01:28:51 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Action80

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #109 on: November 21, 2021, 02:48:20 PM »
 
You have no  evidence he was polishing the rifle in his mom's house.
Just another lie.

So this punk, a product of the mainstream media, sat in his bedroom of his mom's house, studying algebra, doing his chores, watching action movies, dreaming of being a cop, getting hopped up on Fox News.

Right.

I'm entitled to my opinion and if it offends the right wing snowflakes that made this entitled, spoiled piece of shit their hero, I'm glad.

This affluenza ridden brat is the reason liberals don't want us to have guns.
Seems like sour grapes.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #110 on: November 21, 2021, 03:19:38 PM »
I thought the original intent was as a reaction to british soldiers confiscating guns?
Just like how they used homes without permission.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #111 on: November 21, 2021, 05:12:24 PM »
I've always believed that idea of an armed citizenry defending liberty from our federal government was an absolutely delusional redneck fantasy. I need the federal government to have resources and weaponry to defend us from powerful nation states all over the world. I want a government that can defend us from extremist terror groups with technology and intelligence.

Our government is not going to fall to a bunch of bumpkins with hand guns and hunting rifles!



.... shit

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Offline xasop

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #112 on: November 21, 2021, 05:19:39 PM »
I've always believed that idea of an armed citizenry defending liberty from our federal government was an absolutely delusional redneck fantasy. I need the federal government to have resources and weaponry to defend us from powerful nation states all over the world. I want a government that can defend us from extremist terror groups with technology and intelligence.
You mean the extremist terror groups it created?
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #113 on: November 21, 2021, 05:21:48 PM »
I've always believed that idea of an armed citizenry defending liberty from our federal government was an absolutely delusional redneck fantasy. I need the federal government to have resources and weaponry to defend us from powerful nation states all over the world. I want a government that can defend us from extremist terror groups with technology and intelligence.
You mean the extremist terror groups it created?

Yeah... I guess it all changes when the government is an extremist terror group with technology and intelligence.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #114 on: November 21, 2021, 08:16:47 PM »
What alot of this year has shown is just how much America is like Trump:
Fragile, easy to anger, arrogant.

America was essentially grinded to a halt by a thousand, mostly unarmed, protesters.
America's healthcare system is wobbling due to a pandemic with only a 1% mortality rate.
Its press is untrusted by a large amount of Americans.
And people argue violently about getting a life saving vaccine because some person on the internet said it would kill them and they should take horse dewormer instead.

If China wants to destroy America, it wouldn't take much effort.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline Action80

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #115 on: November 22, 2021, 10:32:07 AM »
I've always believed that idea of an armed citizenry defending liberty from our federal government was an absolutely delusional redneck fantasy. I need the federal government to have resources and weaponry to defend us from powerful nation states all over the world. I want a government that can defend us from extremist terror groups with technology and intelligence.

Our government is not going to fall to a bunch of bumpkins with hand guns and hunting rifles!



.... shit
How many people at the US Capitol were armed?

Answer -0

You're just weak liar.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #116 on: November 22, 2021, 11:26:48 AM »
There absolutely were people that were armed. Christopher Albert was one such person.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #117 on: November 22, 2021, 12:55:13 PM »
How many people at the US Capitol were armed?

Answer -0

You're just weak liar.

Fuck that. That piece of human shit, Trump, was going to send federal troops to my town to protect a Target store from protesters marching against a corrupt police force that has brutalized the people of this city for over a half century. They weren't armed either.

Every rioter in that photo is a traitor to this nation. The Republicans supporting Putin's agenda who opened the doors for these traitors are traitors. Fuck each and every one of those 'short bus retards' (their lawyer's words, not mine.)

  Seems like sour grapes.

It's pissed off grapes. I owned guns when I was 17. The idea that my mom and dad would let me take one of my rifles and go into the streets at night is incomprehensible. This little fuck head's parents are the real problem. So fuck them too.
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Offline Action80

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #118 on: November 22, 2021, 01:00:36 PM »
There absolutely were people that were armed. Christopher Albert was one such person.
Outcome?


Offline Action80

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Re: Prosecution star witness confirms Rittenhouse self-defense
« Reply #119 on: November 22, 2021, 01:03:11 PM »
How many people at the US Capitol were armed?

Answer -0

You're just weak liar.

Fuck that. That piece of human shit, Trump, was going to send federal troops to my town to protect a Target store from protesters marching against a corrupt police force that has brutalized the people of this city for over a half century. They weren't armed either.

Every rioter in that photo is a traitor to this nation. The Republicans supporting Putin's agenda who opened the doors for these traitors are traitors. Fuck each and every one of those 'short bus retards' (their lawyer's words, not mine.)

  Seems like sour grapes.

It's pissed off grapes. I owned guns when I was 17. The idea that my mom and dad would let me take one of my rifles and go into the streets at night is incomprehensible. This little fuck head's parents are the real problem. So fuck them too.
Sour grapes from an ineffectual troll who has no point.

Rittenhouse killed two known shitbags and his trial ended in a just verdict.

His parents are a far sight better than most.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 02:20:00 PM by Action80 »