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Offline xasop

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Germany elects a new Bundestag
« on: September 27, 2021, 12:05:33 PM »
And what an election! The centre-right Christian Democratic Union has been narrowly beaten by the centre-left Social Democrats, but either would need to form a coalition with two other parties to govern. That leaves the Greens and the liberal Free Democratic Party holding the cards — a huge win for the political centre. Happily, the extremist parties on both sides of the spectrum, AfD and The Left, are losing seats.

This is the moment for Greens supporters to rejoice:

The Greens had their highest-ever election result in the Bundestag with 14.8% of the vote, a 5.8 percentage point jump on the previous election, making them the third-biggest party in parliament, preliminary results show.

It also means the party will likely be a kingmaker in the next German coalition government.

There is also good news here for those of us concerned about the spread of divisive extremism beyond the UK:

Both the far-right and far-left parties were set to lose seats in Germany's Bundestag, according to preliminary results.

"The three-way race between Olaf Scholz, Armin Laschet and Annalena Baerbock led to a consolidation of the political centre at the expense of the far left and the far-right parties," said Loss.

I don't think a better outcome could have been hoped for, realistically. This is a very good sign for the future of western Europe.
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2021, 12:42:12 PM »
This is the moment for Greens supporters to rejoice:
So will Germany be ending its reliance on coal thereby pushing energy costs through the roof and losing their manufacturing advantage over the rest of the developed world and seeing further decline in their automotive sector ... or will the greens just turn a blind eye to Germany being the dirty man of Europe?

The Greens had their highest-ever election result in the Bundestag with 14.8% of the vote, a 5.8 percentage point jump on the previous election, making them the third-biggest party in parliament, preliminary results show.

It also means the party will likely be a kingmaker in the next German coalition government.
We had this in the UK where the Lib dems where allegedly the kingmakers. they gave Nick Clegg (the leader) a job as deputy PM, a couple of other jobs went to a few other members and they were basically bought off. The lib dems were ushered into office because they stood on a platform of free tuition for university. Once Clegg got his cushy job as deputy PM, that never happened. Side note ... the Lib Dems have been in political oblivion ever since. I wonder how much pressure the Greens will bring to bear. History suggests not much. The DUP was bought off in much the same way with £1billion investment package by the conservatives.

There is also good news here for those of us concerned about the spread of divisive extremism beyond the UK:
We have a Conservative government. It just won its biggest ever majority. Please observe the result.





And then observe our history.

We are still in the blue now. Second biggest party, still the red one. Virtually nothing else gets voted for, apart from the separatists in Scotland ... but somehow I don't think you are referring to them as extremists, despite their politics to split the nation being the only extreme politics we have.

What are you talking about divisive extremism? We have the most stable political system in Europe. We don't have an AfD equivalent or a far left equivalent. The Germans have extremist parties. So do the Dutch for that matter. The UK does not.

I don't think a better outcome could have been hoped for, realistically. This is a very good sign for the future of western Europe.
Its awesome. You've a coalition in Germany which means a nation paralysed by inter-party fighting. A nation where its own elected officials will argue to deindustrialise it. That will be horse traded against massive welfare spending, military spending cuts, ever closer union with all the sponges in Europe, unlimited immigration and a Jekyll and Hyde approach to foreign policy. A stagnation at best, a ruddy great parachute on Europe's largest economy at worst ... or best depending on your point of view.  ;D
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 12:45:15 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline xasop

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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2021, 01:14:05 PM »
So will Germany be ending its reliance on coal thereby pushing energy costs through the roof and losing their manufacturing advantage over the rest of the developed world and seeing further decline in their automotive sector ... or will the greens just turn a blind eye to Germany being the dirty man of Europe?
No.

We had this in the UK where the Lib dems where allegedly the kingmakers.
Yes, I am well aware of how ineffectual British politics is. You don't need to remind me.

What are you talking about divisive extremism? We have the most stable political system in Europe.
No, Belarus has the most stable political system in Europe, although the UK isn't looking much different these days.

We don't have an AfD equivalent or a far left equivalent. The Germans have extremist parties. So do the Dutch for that matter. The UK does not.
Boris Johnson's Conservatives are your AfD equivalent. That is why UKIP doesn't have any seats in the House of Commons anymore — the Tories took over that role. As you already pointed out, they are your largest party at the moment.

Its awesome. You've a coalition in Germany which means a nation paralysed by inter-party fighting.
Yes, it's called debate. You know, the thing that distinguishes democracy from dictatorship.
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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2021, 01:23:25 PM »
So will Germany be ending its reliance on coal thereby pushing energy costs through the roof and losing their manufacturing advantage over the rest of the developed world and seeing further decline in their automotive sector ... or will the greens just turn a blind eye to Germany being the dirty man of Europe?
No.
No to which one? Are they going to be green and poorer, or dirty and prosperous? You don't get to have both.

What are you talking about divisive extremism? We have the most stable political system in Europe.
No, Belarus has the most stable political system in Europe, although the UK isn't looking much different these days.
Says a man who champions a superstate and squeals about people voting against it.

Boris Johnson's Conservatives are your AfD equivalent.
This is beyond dumb.

Its awesome. You've a coalition in Germany which means a nation paralysed by inter-party fighting.
Yes, it's called debate. You know, the thing that distinguishes democracy from dictatorship.
Debate is when two OPPOSING parties meet. When parties are on the same side and fail to agree, nothing gets done. We just had several years of political blockade in our house of parliament. The only way to stop that was for the British people to vote out all those people causing the problem. Which they duly did in an absolute landslide.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2021, 01:33:32 PM »
No to which one? Are they going to be green and poorer, or dirty and prosperous?
No.

Says a man who champions a superstate and squeals about people voting against it.
It's remarkable that after all these years, you still don't understand my position.

Boris Johnson's Conservatives are your AfD equivalent.
This is beyond dumb.
That's what I've been saying.

Debate is when two OPPOSING parties meet. When parties are on the same side and fail to agree, nothing gets done.
What the hell are you talking about? If they don't agree, they aren't on the same side. That's what it means to not be on the same side.
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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2021, 01:49:17 PM »
No to which one? Are they going to be green and poorer, or dirty and prosperous?
No.
They are going to be greener and poorer. #RIPBMW.

It's remarkable that after all these years, you still don't understand my position.
You don't have a position. You just want to be told how to live your life.

Debate is when two OPPOSING parties meet. When parties are on the same side and fail to agree, nothing gets done.
What the hell are you talking about? If they don't agree, they aren't on the same side. That's what it means to not be on the same side.
If they can't agree (be on the same side) then they can't pass legislation and you get nothing done. You'll get dumb stuff done like commissioning 4000 windmills at enormous expense, but you won't fix roads or mend tax loop holes.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2021, 01:58:59 PM »
If they can't agree (be on the same side) then they can't pass legislation and you get nothing done. You'll get dumb stuff done like commissioning 4000 windmills at enormous expense, but you won't fix roads or mend tax loop holes.
It's quite astounding how poor your understanding of politics is. Two parties are never consistently "on the same side" or on different sides. Which "side" a party takes depends on the issue at hand — for example, socialists and greens usually agree that minority rights are a good thing, but may argue about whether to spend money on welfare or climate initiatives. Conservatives and liberals generally agree on limiting government interference in business, but may differ on the role of government in education and healthcare.

So, the purpose of a coalition is to find common ground where possible, and to find compromises where there is no common ground. This means that supporters of any one party are unlikely to get exactly what they want, which — if you lack an understanding of the process — may appear as "getting nothing done". In that case, you might be happier if you go live in a dictatorship instead. They get plenty done.
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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2021, 02:04:30 PM »
It's quite astounding how poor your understanding of politics is. Two parties are never consistently "on the same side" or on different sides. Which "side" a party takes depends on the issue at hand — for example, socialists and greens usually agree that minority rights are a good thing, but may argue about whether to spend money on welfare or climate initiatives. Conservatives and liberals generally agree on limiting government interference in business, but may differ on the role of government in education and healthcare.

So, the purpose of a coalition is to find common ground where possible, and to find compromises where there is no common ground. This means that supporters of any one party are unlikely to get exactly what they want, which — if you lack an understanding of the process — may appear as "getting nothing done". In that case, you might be happier if you go live in a dictatorship instead. They get plenty done.
I just lived through a few years of a coalition in my own nation. A complete stalemate. No one giving any ground, no one compromising ... and we weren't able to move on from Brexit. Once we ousted the quislings, Europe has become but a distant nightmare. We just get on with stuff like £multi-billion military trade agreements and we don't worry about French feelings.
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2021, 02:11:11 PM »
One interesting side effect is that Macron will now become the de facto leader of Europe.

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Offline xasop

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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2021, 02:16:44 PM »
I just lived through a few years of a coalition in my own nation. A complete stalemate. No one giving any ground, no one compromising ... and we weren't able to move on from Brexit.
Indeed, that coalition worked out very well. The DUP correctly recognised that the proposed Withdrawal Agreement would be terrible for Irish unionists, and so they blocked what would have been an economic disaster for them. Then, after the 2019 election, the same agreement was passed and there were riots in Northern Ireland over the problems it caused. Now Boris is desperately trying to get the EU to let him wrangle out of it.

If only ye still had a coalition to block such dreadful legislation and save yere country from its present humiliation!

One interesting side effect is that Macron will now become the de facto leader of Europe.
Stop. Just stop. You do not understand Europe, and if you don't by now, you never will. Your uninformed opinions are worse than useless.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 02:20:30 PM by xasop »
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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2021, 02:26:32 PM »
Indeed, that coalition worked out very well. The DUP correctly recognised that the proposed Withdrawal Agreement would be terrible for Irish unionists, and so they blocked what would have been an economic disaster for them. Then, after the 2019 election, the same agreement was passed and there were riots in Northern Ireland over the problems it caused. Now Boris is desperately trying to get the EU to let him wrangle out of it.

If only ye still had a coalition to block such dreadful legislation and save yere country from its present humiliation!
We ended up with a shitty deal from our European rivals as our own parties refused to cooperate. That's terrible for us. Coalitions usually are. I wish Germany all the luck we had.

One interesting side effect is that Macron will now become the de facto leader of Europe.
Stop. Just stop. You do not understand Europe, and if you don't by now, you never will. Your uninformed opinions are worse than useless.
Almost every news outlet shares my opinion.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/the-brief-macron-the-eus-new-leader/
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/24/world/europe/macron-merkel-europe.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/20/will-france-try-to-edge-out-germany-after-merkel-leaves-office.html
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/06/11/macron-merkel-de-weck-french-politics/
https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-mario-draghi-france-italy-angela-merkel/

Maybe its your opinions that are uniformed? You don't seem to read the news.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2021, 02:31:42 PM »
We ended up with a shitty deal from our European rivals as our own parties refused to cooperate. That's terrible for us. Coalitions usually are. I wish Germany all the luck we had.
Can you please stop saying this? It's wrong, it has always been wrong, and it will always be wrong. The "shitty deal" ye have was negotiated and agreed by Boris Johnson and David Frost, with a clear majority in the House of Commons. Stop trying to blame your country's awful decisions on anyone else you can remember the name of.

Almost every news outlet shares my opinion.
What a surprise, you haven't read your own sources again.

No one figure — not even Mr. Macron, or a new German chancellor — will be as influential as Ms. Merkel was at her strongest

Can you please stop spamming the thread with nonsense now?
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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2021, 02:37:08 PM »
Can you please stop saying this? It's wrong, it has always been wrong, and it will always be wrong. The "shitty deal" ye have was negotiated and agreed by Boris Johnson and David Frost, with a clear majority in the House of Commons. Stop trying to blame your country's awful decisions on anyone else you can remember the name of.
We ended up having to have a general election and having to expel the speaker of the house in order to put things right. Fun fact ... he is the only speak in British history not to be made a Lord after his tenure. Traitors don't get rewarded.

Almost every news outlet shares my opinion.
What a surprise, you haven't read your own sources again.

No one figure — not even Mr. Macron, or a new German chancellor — will be as influential as Ms. Merkel was at her strongest

Can you please stop spamming the thread with nonsense now?
So Merkel was leader, Macron is vying for leader, but some people aren't sure if he can pull it off. Yeah, that bit where some people aren't sure makes me way off.  ::)

Nice cherry picking though. How about we pick a source a little closer to home.
Quote from: https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/the-brief-macron-the-eus-new-leader/
The West may no longer be the leader of the world. But the EU has a new leader and it’s no longer Merkel: it’s French President Emmanuel Macron.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 02:39:00 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline xasop

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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2021, 02:41:16 PM »
We ended up having to have a general election and having to expel the speaker of the house in order to put things right. Fun fact ... he is the only speak in British history not to be made a Lord after his tenure. Traitors don't get rewarded.
So you "put things right" by passing what you just called a "shitty deal" 10 minutes ago. ???

So Merkel was leader, Macron is vying for leader, but some people aren't sure if he can pull it off. Yeah, that bit where some people aren't sure makes me way off.  ::)
I can be vying for leader if I want to. It doesn't make any difference if nobody follows me.

Nice cherry picking though. How about we pick a source a little closer to home.
Quote from: https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/the-brief-macron-the-eus-new-leader/
The West may no longer be the leader of the world. But the EU has a new leader and it’s no longer Merkel: it’s French President Emmanuel Macron.
Have you looked at the date on that article?
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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2021, 02:46:04 PM »
We ended up having to have a general election and having to expel the speaker of the house in order to put things right. Fun fact ... he is the only speak in British history not to be made a Lord after his tenure. Traitors don't get rewarded.
So you "put things right" by passing what you just called a "shitty deal" 10 minutes ago. ???
Forced into a shitty deal ... and now we are going back on it because as we discussed before, you can't make us have a shit deal for the rest of forever. We're always going to come back and say change it or do one. With no time limit, can cancel that when we like.

So Merkel was leader, Macron is vying for leader, but some people aren't sure if he can pull it off. Yeah, that bit where some people aren't sure makes me way off.  ::)
I can be vying for leader if I want to. It doesn't make any difference if nobody follows me.
There are 25 sheep nations with no money, utterly dependent on France and Germany. They'll follow one or the other.

Nice cherry picking though. How about we pick a source a little closer to home.
Quote from: https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/the-brief-macron-the-eus-new-leader/
The West may no longer be the leader of the world. But the EU has a new leader and it’s no longer Merkel: it’s French President Emmanuel Macron.
Have you looked at the date on that article?
Merkel's demise has been on the cards for some time. We've all known this would happen for ages. Its only a a surprise that you didn't realise that Macron is going to be the EU's de facto leader, being as you live there and all.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2021, 02:51:10 PM »
Forced into a shitty deal
No, we are not having this conversation again. If you want to find out why you are wrong, you can re-read the last umpteen times we talked about this.

There are 25 sheep nations with no money, utterly dependent on France and Germany. They'll follow on or the other.

Merkel's demise has been on the cards for some time. We've all known this would happen for ages. Its only a a surprise that you didn't realise that Macron is going to be the EU's de facto leader, being as you live there and all.
You are just being extremist, as usual — but I shouldn't be surprised about this from a Tory supporter. Nobody is denying that Macron has and will continue to have influence, but calling him "the leader of the EU" is nothing but media hype.
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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2021, 02:59:46 PM »
Forced into a shitty deal
No, we are not having this conversation again. If you want to find out why you are wrong, you can re-read the last umpteen times we talked about this.
I'm no more likely to agree with the unconvincing diatribe you posted any more this time, than the last time I read it.

You are just being extremist, as usual — but I shouldn't be surprised about this from a Tory supporter. Nobody is denying that Macron has and will continue to have influence, but calling him "the leader of the EU" is nothing but media hype.
So we've gone from 'an uninformed opinion that is worse than useless' to 'media hype'. That's some concession. You now admit that it is not uniformed because it is a media narrative, that its not just my opinion but the one held by mainstream news outlets, and that far from being useless, it is a credible way of thinking about the EU. You still tried to dismiss it as 'media hype', because you are as thrilled about being dictated to by Macron as I would be, but I'm sure he isn't going to make mayonnaise compulsory with every meal. We'll reasonably sure.

So now we agree that most people who know anything about the politics of the EU (and you've just learned a little more - you're welcome) are of the opinion that its new leader will be Macron. After Merkel. Did you vote for Merkel? Or Macron? Or did a foreign power just start dictating how you might lead your life? What you need to vote for is a little bit of sovereignty.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Germany elects a new Bundestag
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2021, 03:20:46 PM »
You now admit that it is not uniformed because it is a media narrative, that its not just my opinion but the one held by mainstream news outlets, and that far from being useless, it is a credible way of thinking about the EU.
No, I admitted none of those things. It's uninformed because you Googled for a media narrative that you think agrees with you, rather than basing your opinion on a balanced reading of diverse sources. Only one of your "sources" — have you read them yet? — unreservedly agrees with you, and it's the one that is two years out of date and has already been proven wrong. The only mainstream news outlets you presented are American, probably because you couldn't find any mainstream European media willing to resort to such oversimplifications.

I don't even know where you got "credible" from. That is the opposite of everything I have said.

I'm going to assume that you resorting to lies about what I've said means you're aware that you're wrong. Apology accepted.
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