Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2021, 08:49:19 PM »
Note to everyone who is following this discussion: without the correct Sagnac effect formula, the RE can claim immediately that the Earth is rotating around its own axis, and there's nothing the FE/UAFE can do about it (see the Bob Knodel episode).

This is one of the main reasons why the other FES forum has been hijacked by the RE (admin + mods), in order to cause as much mayhem as possible, so that there could be no meaningful debate about the MGX/RLGs in the upper forums.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2021, 08:24:41 AM »
Show me your formula. Is it by any chance, dt = 4Aω/c2? That's the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula.

Here is the SAGNAC EFFECT formula:

2(V1L1 + V2L2)/c2

A huge difference.

Where did you get those formulae from? It would be helpful if you could both explain what the various terms are, and to complete the formulae. The first one doesn't look right at all - the Coriolis effect is simply a function of motion in a non-inertial, rotating frame - the speed of light, c, wouldn't normally come into it. Also that one starts with 'dt = ', but there is no corresponding derivative on the other side of the formula, which means it is essentially meaningless, as dt on its own is zero. I wonder if you've got that from vibrating Coriolis gyro systems? Hard to tell.

Likewise your Sagnac formula bears no resemblance to the Sagnac formula described in several of the papers we've been discussing, Wikipedia, as well as the slide deck I linked to, which is:

 

where Δφ is the phase difference measured by the interferometer, λ is the wavelength of the light, and ω is the rotation rate (sometimes presented as the capital letter Ω in the context of earth rate).

Your formula for the Sagnac effect has only one side of the equation, so it's not clear what the term actually represents, and it seems to bear no resemblance at all to Sagnac's original formula. It may well be that it is in some way related, but without your source, or some context, it's just meaningless I'm afraid.

You appear to be claiming that RLGs are in fact measuring the rotation of some 'ether', presumably rotating above the FE surface. If that's the case, then you need to explain what the mechanism is by which this mysterious rotation is being detected, and why it is related to the latitude of the sensor. Why would the measured rotation be zero at the equator, and a maximum at the North Pole and southern pole / ice wall / whatever it is ?

Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2021, 08:52:43 AM »
dt is not the derivative, it is the delta t, difference in time, time shift formula. The notation for the derivative is d/dt (dt is the differential notation).

The ether drift is latitude dependent.

http://www.orgonelab.org/miller.htm

The Coriolis effect is SUBLUMINAL.

The Sagnac effect is SUPERLUMINAL.

That is, if you want the Sagnac effect, the formula must reflect the superluminal velocity. No superluminal velocity, no Sagnac formula.

Coriolis and Sagnac effect formulas for a square ring laser interferometer:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2153966#msg2153966

Derivation of the Sagnac effect formula:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2117351#msg2117351


KASSNER EFFECT

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2234871#msg2234871 (part I)

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2235136#msg2235136 (part II)

Dr. Gianfranco Spavieri

In both the outward and return paths, the one-way speed is c (in agreement with Einstein’s second postulate) if the length L of the outward path covered by the signal is reduced to L(1 - 2v/c) < L in Eq. (3).

CORIOLIS EFFECT = a path measuring L(1 - 2v/c), a comparison of two separate/different segments

SAGNAC EFFECT = a path measuring L, a comparison of two continuous loops

Therefore, Michelson and Gale, Silberstein, Langevin, Post, Bilger, Anderson, Steadman, Rizzi, Targaglia, Ruggiero, have been measuring ONLY the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula (area and angular velocity), nothing else. The formulas features on the wikipedia and mathpages websites are the CORIOLIS EFFECT equations, not the correct SAGNAC EFFECT formulas.


Here is the crown jewel of all the SAGNAC EFFECT formulas:

Δt = (l1 + l2)/(c - v1 - v2) - (l1 + l2)/(c + v1 + v2)

The velocity terms are immediately identified: c - v1 - v2 and c + v1 + v2.


Δt = (l1 + l2)/(c - v1 - v2) - (l1 + l2)/(c + v1 + v2) = 2[(l1v1 + l2v2)]/c2

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2021, 09:11:18 AM »
dt is not the derivative, it is the delta t, difference in time, time shift formula. The notation for the derivative is d/dt (dt is the differential notation).

The ether drift is latitude dependent.

http://www.orgonelab.org/miller.htm

The Coriolis effect is SUBLUMINAL.

The Sagnac effect is SUPERLUMINAL.

That is, if you want the Sagnac effect, the formula must reflect the superluminal velocity. No superluminal velocity, no Sagnac formula.

Coriolis and Sagnac effect formulas for a square ring laser interferometer:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2153966#msg2153966

Derivation of the Sagnac effect formula:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2117351#msg2117351


KASSNER EFFECT

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2234871#msg2234871 (part I)

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2235136#msg2235136 (part II)

Dr. Gianfranco Spavieri

In both the outward and return paths, the one-way speed is c (in agreement with Einstein’s second postulate) if the length L of the outward path covered by the signal is reduced to L(1 - 2v/c) < L in Eq. (3).

CORIOLIS EFFECT = a path measuring L(1 - 2v/c), a comparison of two separate/different segments

SAGNAC EFFECT = a path measuring L, a comparison of two continuous loops

Therefore, Michelson and Gale, Silberstein, Langevin, Post, Bilger, Anderson, Steadman, Rizzi, Targaglia, Ruggiero, have been measuring ONLY the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula (area and angular velocity), nothing else. The formulas features on the wikipedia and mathpages websites are the CORIOLIS EFFECT equations, not the correct SAGNAC EFFECT formulas.


Here is the crown jewel of all the SAGNAC EFFECT formulas:

Δt = (l1 + l2)/(c - v1 - v2) - (l1 + l2)/(c + v1 + v2)

The velocity terms are immediately identified: c - v1 - v2 and c + v1 + v2.


Δt = (l1 + l2)/(c - v1 - v2) - (l1 + l2)/(c + v1 + v2) = 2[(l1v1 + l2v2)]/c2

So, using your 'crown jewel' formula, if I have a RLG system, with an interferometer, and I measure some phase shift Δφ, how do I calculate the rotation rate, ω? Your formula has neither of those terms in it.

Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2021, 09:18:25 AM »
v =  ωr

But that is nothing compared to the main issue. Why didn't Michelson and Gale detect the much larger Sagnac effect on the light beams?


Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2021, 09:41:29 AM »
v =  ωr

Ok...so v = ωr and

Δt = (l1 + l2)/(c - v1 - v2) - (l1 + l2)/(c + v1 + v2) = 2[(l1v1 + l2v2)]/c2

So my interferometer detects a phase shift of Δφ radians between the two light beams...how do I calculate rotation rate from that? Where does t come into it? And r? And which v are we talking about?

Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2021, 10:25:11 AM »

So my interferometer detects a phase shift of Δφ radians between the two light beams

Yes, that's the Coriolis effect phase shift. But you won't detect the Sagnac effect.

Each interferometer has two phenomena to deal with: a mechanical effect (Coriolis effect) and an electromagnetic effect (Sagnac effect). Two separate formulas.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2021, 10:27:38 AM »

So my interferometer detects a phase shift of Δφ radians between the two light beams

Yes, that's the Coriolis effect phase shift. But you won't detect the Sagnac effect.

Each interferometer has two phenomena to deal with: a mechanical effect (Coriolis effect) and an electromagnetic effect (Sagnac effect). Two separate formulas.

So are you suggesting that every RLG that measures rotation via an interferometer is in fact wrong?

Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2021, 11:01:52 AM »
Let us imagine the Earth as a very large scale turntable. To detect the rotation of the turntable itself, you need the Sagnac effect. With the Coriolis effect, you have either of two possibilities: either the turntable is rotating or the ether drift is rotating above its surface.

What Michelson did is to substitute the Coriolis effect formula for the Sagnac effect formula, and then he claimed that the Earth is rotating. Not by a long shot.

The RLGs are detecting the CORIOLIS EFFECT.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2021, 11:13:21 AM »
Let us imagine the Earth as a very large scale turntable. To detect the rotation of the turntable itself, you need the Sagnac effect. With the Coriolis effect, you have either of two possibilities: either the turntable is rotating or the ether drift is rotating above its surface.

What Michelson did is to substitute the Coriolis effect formula for the Sagnac effect formula, and then he claimed that the Earth is rotating. Not by a long shot.

The RLGs are detecting the CORIOLIS EFFECT.

A simple yes or no will suffice.

RLGs, as used in navigation systems, or scientific experiments, all use interferometers to measure the phase difference between the two light paths and calculate the rotation rate using the formula I showed above, which is the same formula Sagnac himself came up with.

It's a simple question - are these RLGs measuring rotation correctly or not? Forget about earth rate for a moment, just consider a RLG on a rotating platform turning at a given rate. Would you agree that commercial systems, such as the Honeywell GG1320, actually work correctly?


Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2021, 11:31:12 AM »
RLGs, as used in navigation systems, or scientific experiments, all use interferometers to measure the phase difference between the two light paths and calculate the rotation rate using the formula I showed above, which is the same formula Sagnac himself came up with.

No. Sagnac came up with the CORIOLIS EFFECT formula. Eight years later, Dr. L. Silberstein finally made the distinction, and proved that light interferometers were detecting the Coriolis effect indeed.

All interferometers are using the Coriolis effect formula, which features an area and the angular velocity.

It's a simple question - are these RLGs measuring rotation correctly or not? Forget about earth rate for a moment, just consider a RLG on a rotating platform turning at a given rate.

No.

If you have a geometrically symmetrical interferometer (square/circle) placed on a rotating platform, then the Coriolis effect formula will COINCIDE with the Sagnac effect formula. It is the only time they will do so.

However, if you now place that interferometer somewhere else, and it is stationary, trying to detect the supposed rotation of the Earth, it will only detect the Coriolis effect. Had the Earth been rotating, it would have registered the Sagnac effect as well.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2021, 12:16:35 PM »

If you have a geometrically symmetrical interferometer (square/circle) placed on a rotating platform, then the Coriolis effect formula will COINCIDE with the Sagnac effect formula. It is the only time they will do so.


Ok then. So go back to my previous question - help me understand your formula. You have a symmetrical (let's say square, to keep it simple) RLG on a rotating platform turning at a rate ω. The interferometer of the RLG detects a phase shift Δφ. You are now saying that both formulae would return the same result in this case, but you haven't actually explained how those terms fit into your formula, other than saying v=ωr.

Δt = (l1 + l2)/(c - v1 - v2) - (l1 + l2)/(c + v1 + v2) = 2[(l1v1 + l2v2)]/c2

How would you get from a measured phase shift, Δφ, to a rotation rate, ω, using that formula and v=ωr?

You are also asserting that RLGs are in fact detecting the rotation of the ether. You posted a link in response to my point about latitude variation, but that link doesn't really explain the concept at all - it just says that variations in latitude were observed. Miller may have been an aether proponent, but he still very much subscribed to the round earth model, as the diagrams in that text show. You are proposing a flat earth, with aether / ether rotation that is both detectable by RLGs and also variable according to the sine of the latitude of the device. How do you explain the variation of the measurements with latitude? It makes no sense at all on a flat earth - what is so special about the equator, for example?





Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2021, 01:19:47 PM »
For an interferometer whose center of rotation coincides with its geometrical center, it's even simpler.

Circle

l = 2πr
v1 = v2

My formula: 2(2lv)/c^2 = 4lv/c^2 = 8πωr2/c^2 = 8ωA/c^2

Square

dt = 8rv/c^2 (r = d/2, d = diagonal of the square) = 8ωA/c^2


Everything changes when the center of rotation no longer coincides with the geometrical center of the interferometer.


The ether drift field has a variable speed, latitude dependent. Remember, now I have the formula to PROVE that there is only one possibility for the registered Coriolis effect: it is the ether drift which is rotating above the surface of the Earth.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2021, 03:38:08 PM »
For an interferometer whose center of rotation coincides with its geometrical center, it's even simpler.

Circle

l = 2πr
v1 = v2

My formula: 2(2lv)/c^2 = 4lv/c^2 = 8πωr2/c^2 = 8ωA/c^2

Square

dt = 8rv/c^2 (r = d/2, d = diagonal of the square) = 8ωA/c^2


Everything changes when the center of rotation no longer coincides with the geometrical center of the interferometer.


The ether drift field has a variable speed, latitude dependent. Remember, now I have the formula to PROVE that there is only one possibility for the registered Coriolis effect: it is the ether drift which is rotating above the surface of the Earth.

The formula I showed you was:



You've ended up with 8ωA/c^2

Where have Pi and λ gone?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2021, 05:07:50 PM »
Where have Pi and λ gone?
If you had actually read and understood the article you're plucking formulae out of, you would have noticed that . It really would be a good idea to understand what you're discussing before proudly taking a stance on it.

Now, it's still possible that sandy made a small (and largely insignificant for the purpose of this discussion) arithmetic error in his calculations. Can you find it?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 05:16:41 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2021, 09:50:53 PM »
Where have Pi and λ gone?
If you had actually read and understood the article you're plucking formulae out of, you would have noticed that . It really would be a good idea to understand what you're discussing before proudly taking a stance on it.

Now, it's still possible that sandy made a small (and largely insignificant for the purpose of this discussion) arithmetic error in his calculations. Can you find it?

I’m well aware of that equation, but I’m not really clear why you’ve brought it up. The reason I quoted the generalised sagnac formula is that it is the one used to get from the interferometer reading to a rotation rate - you can’t measure delta t directly, but you can measure the phase shift.

I’m just pointing out that the equation sandokhan has come up with is not actually the same as the one I showed - it is missing the Pi and λ terms. The latter is particularly important, as without it, the dimensions of the equation change.

Offline Action80

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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2021, 06:46:12 AM »
Where have Pi and λ gone?
If you had actually read and understood the article you're plucking formulae out of, you would have noticed that . It really would be a good idea to understand what you're discussing before proudly taking a stance on it.

Now, it's still possible that sandy made a small (and largely insignificant for the purpose of this discussion) arithmetic error in his calculations. Can you find it?

I’m well aware of that equation, but I’m not really clear why you’ve brought it up. The reason I quoted the generalised sagnac formula is that it is the one used to get from the interferometer reading to a rotation rate - you can’t measure delta t directly, but you can measure the phase shift.

I’m just pointing out that the equation sandokhan has come up with is not actually the same as the one I showed - it is missing the Pi and λ terms. The latter is particularly important, as without it, the dimensions of the equation change.
Seems that SteelyBob can't even math or simply say no in response to a clear question.

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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2021, 09:39:46 AM »
I’m well aware of that equation, but I’m not really clear why you’ve brought it up.
Yes, that's rather apparent. Let's help you out.
  • You provided a formula for Δϕ
  • Sandokhan provided a proposed formula for Δt
  • You were confused by this, so I showed you the relation between Δϕ and Δt - all that was required of you was simple algebra
  • Since this still eludes you, we can conclude that even though "you are well aware of that equation", you do not understand it in the slightest.

it is missing the Pi and λ terms.
It's not missing anything at all. Once again, note that .

Are you with us yet? If we can make it past substitution, we might even be able to discuss physics at some point.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 09:45:24 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline SteelyBob

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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2021, 10:47:32 AM »
I’m well aware of that equation, but I’m not really clear why you’ve brought it up.
Yes, that's rather apparent. Let's help you out.
  • You provided a formula for Δϕ
  • Sandokhan provided a proposed formula for Δt
  • You were confused by this, so I showed you the relation between Δϕ and Δt - all that was required of you was simple algebra
  • Since this still eludes you, we can conclude that even though "you are well aware of that equation", you do not understand it in the slightest.

it is missing the Pi and λ terms.
It's not missing anything at all. Once again, note that .

Are you with us yet? If we can make it past substitution, we might even be able to discuss physics at some point.

Thank you, and my apologies - I hadn't spotted that he was still talking about 'dt'. Makes sense.

I'm curious as to how Sandokhan got to the formula - there's clearly some fairly significant errors along the way. I'm not talking about minor mistakes - I've no interest in derailing threads when somebody makes a minor mistake (witness this one from TB earlier here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18565.msg246662#msg246662). But, for example, sandokhan says this:

Quote
Δt = (l1 + l2)/(c - v1 - v2) - (l1 + l2)/(c + v1 + v2) = 2[(l1v1 + l2v2)]/c2


That looks fundamentally wrong to me - the simplification on the right isn't equal to the term on left. Thoughts?

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Re: Ring laser gyros
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2021, 10:50:53 AM »
He already showed you the assumptions and arithmetic required to arrive at Δt=8ωA/c^2. If you disagree with any of the steps, you'll have to pinpoint them
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