I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« on: August 02, 2021, 01:37:26 PM »
I don't mean to be rude to anyone here so I'm really sorry if it comes across that way. I'm a round earther myself, but I'm interested in learning more if I find it plausible. First of all, I just started watching the video (6 hr one?) and the first thing they said was it's weird we can't feel the earth spinning if it's moving so fast. I know everyone here has better arguments than that because even google knows the answer (I do realise that's not your main argument or anything, but if you see something that's not right, you may want to find out why before you use it as an argument. I'm sorry if this comes across in the wrong way because I know you do have better arguments. This post is kind of from someone young and new to the concept, so I may come across as sceptical but I just want to find out more.)
So, my question was, do any of you flat earthers want to go into space and see the earth for yourself? Please don't direct me to the FAQs because you can't seriously think space travel is a conspiracy- how would they be able to fake it??- and I'm sure most of you don't.
If you're sure earth isn't a globe and that the pictures are faked and photoshopped, don't you want to check for yourself? Maybe if you think astronauts are 'in on it', you could pretend you're a round earther and see space for yourself?
I'm really sorry, this does sound slightly rude and more than a little sceptical. I honestly want to know, so please bear with me and i apologize again.
Also... why do you think the other planets are round and not earth? Do you think it would form in a completely different way? Please don't say God made it because I thought you used science not religion, and if you do think that how did God make it flat?
Lastly, do you not believe in Antartica being a continent?
Sorry I had so many questions! I really wasn't trying to be rude and you all can say whatever you like back, I just genuinely want to know. Thanks!

Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2021, 01:35:35 AM »
Welcome!

do any of you flat earthers want to go into space and see the earth for yourself?

Many were (and remain) scifi fanboys, so - yes.  Personally, I continue to see the allure of visiting a fictional place.

Quote
Please don't direct me to the FAQs because you can't seriously think space travel is a conspiracy- how would they be able to fake it??

Have you read the faq on this question? You really should! It may give you some other possibilities to noodle than the acute lack thereof you are currently suffering with.  No conspiracy is required for humanity to be wrong.  One possibility, outlined in the faq, is that any "conspiracy" that NASA et al represent is for military/nationalistic reason and not to do with the shape of the world.

Quote
If you're sure earth isn't a globe and that the pictures are faked and photoshopped, don't you want to check for yourself?

Of course! You really hit the nail on the head and highlighted a fundamental reason why independent researchers should not rely on NASA (et al) claims - they cannot EVER do precisely that; "check for yourself".  To add insult to injury; the ability to check is itself so worshipped/idolized that only those select few with the "right stuff" could ever dare to hope to obtain it.  Going to space becomes the "mecca" of the secular worldview - a pilgrimage for the (financially) righteous only.

Quote
why do you think the other planets are round and not earth?


Why do you think there are other planets and they would have any commonality with the world you know?  This is a rhetorical question for you to consider; I know the answer already.

The short answer is there isn't much evidence to support the claim that there are other planets, or that they are like earth.

Quote
Do you think it would form in a completely different way? Please don't say God made it because I thought you used science not religion, and if you do think that how did God make it flat?

There is no reason that you can't bring your biased atheist/anti-creationist worldviews with you onto the flat world! You can still fervently believe that nothing randomly created everything over unfathomable amounts of time - it just did so in a flatter manner.  No prob.

Quote
Lastly, do you not believe in Antartica being a continent?

Personally, I have little doubt as to the existence of the landmass of antarctica.  Could it REALLY be a part of a ring that circles the known world - I suppose (and I think it would still be considered a continent in that case).  Could it be just a normal hoth-like continent, also sure.

Quote
Sorry I had so many questions! I really wasn't trying to be rude and you all can say whatever you like back, I just genuinely want to know. Thanks!

This is a place for people who want to know! I'd be happy to answer most any questions you have if I can.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 03:33:36 PM by jack44556677 »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 2371
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2021, 02:55:35 AM »
The short answer is there isn't much evidence to support the claim that there are other planets, or that they are like earth.

Can you elaborate on this point? I mean I totally get that just because Jupiter, for example, appears spherical and doesn't necessitate that Earth must be as well. But how do you mean, "...there isn't much evidence to support the claim that there are other planets..."?

Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2021, 03:47:44 AM »
No conspiracy is required for humanity to be wrong.  One possibility, outlined in the faq, is that any "conspiracy" that NASA et al represent is for military/nationalistic reason and not to do with the shape of the world.
Wait, the claim is that the past 60 years or so of space exploration/industry is all fake.  Yet the services offered actually work (the 4 different GPS system, broadcast TV, telecommunications (some still remains), landsat, weather sats, all the imagery (of the earth as well as the other planets and their moons) and so on).  So for the real thing to be fake and for some other method to be provided for providing all that CORRECT (i.e. consistent with everything we know) data, it would take 10s, if not 100s of thousands of folks across many countries.  How is that not a conspiracy?  An impossible one I'd say (both due to fact that so many folks would not have any hope of keeping any secret so well and due to the need for some alternative to providing all the data).

The disk earth simply can not explain the universe we observe.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 05:40:02 AM by ichoosereality »

Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2021, 03:13:30 PM »
Wait, the claim is that the past 60 years or so of space exploration/industry is all fake.

That is a claim made and defended by many.  However it is not required for the world to be a different shape than we are taught.  What makes the faq perspective on "the conspiracy" novel, is that it is suggested the faking/hiding the shape of the earth is not the reason for any of that.  The cold war is chock full of propaganda, of which "the space age" is only a part.

Quote
Yet the services offered actually work (the 4 different GPS system, broadcast TV, telecommunications (some still remains), landsat, weather sats, all the imagery (of the earth as well as the other planets and their moons) and so on).  So for the real thing to be fake and for some other method to be provided for providing all that CORRECT (i.e. consistent with everything we know) data, it would take 10s, if not 100s of thousands of folks across many countries.  How is that not a conspiracy?

However, the services are not related to space travel (they are intentionally conflated with it).  They are demonstrably real.  How they actually work/function may be misunderstood or otherwise wrong.  It is extremely unlikely, but even something that appears to us as "orbit" may work in an entirely different manner than is currently thought.  We have no trouble being wrong without help from "conspiracy"; we've been doing it since the dawn of time.

The presumed curvature of the world seen in photos is a good example.  We expected to see a curve, so when we saw one from high altitude photography we all concluded "that's it, just what we expected!".  Even today there are many who still erroneously believe the horizon curves at some altitude, because of this simple misunderstanding (of lenses/optics/photography) and misinterpretation of data - taught to generations of students.  Many things we see and take photos of are not truly as they appear, and our interpretations of them are even more consistently incorrect.

Quote
An impossible one I'd say (both due to fact that so many folks would not have any hope of keeping any secret so well and due to the need for some alternative to providing all the data).

Keeping secrets is all too easy, especially if you include death in your recipe/procedure.  In any case, most of the employees in the space industry have no secret to share - they are simply employees who do a job.  If there were any sort of conspiracy it would be well beyond their pay grade.  Very few people would need to keep any secret, and this is one of the major purposes of compartmentalization.  Another, is to prevent any one employee/asset/soldier from seeing and understanding the larger strategy/motive/purpose employed.

The data you mention, by and large, is not fabricated - it is collected by some real means and then composites are created from it. Few, if anyone, suggests that the data is being made up wholesale.

Quote
The disk earth simply can not explain the universe we observe.

This is wrong, but I understand why you feel that way.  The shape of the earth doesn't play a significant role in science or our understanding of the universe. Also, we by and large don't observe the universe - we observe the earth and only experience life thereon.  The shape of the world is flat either because the world is flat or because it is effectively flat on the scale we live and practice science.  A disc earth is not an insurmountable impediment to explaining anything.

Offline Cypher9

  • *
  • Posts: 109
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2021, 08:10:55 PM »

So, my question was, do any of you flat earthers want to go into space and see the earth for yourself?

I'd like to know what shape the earth is so yes, I'd like to go into space. I don't know what the shape of the earth is for sure but as we can't rely on NASA to tell us the truth after all the lies they've already told us I'm beginning to believe that the earth isn't what they've led us to believe and could well be flat. The stuff we're supposed to believe is rather nonsensical when you get down to it.

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 2767
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2021, 08:33:37 PM »
I'd like to know what shape the earth is so yes, I'd like to go into space. I don't know what the shape of the earth is for sure but as we can't rely on NASA to tell us the truth after all the lies they've already told us ....

Why does the buck stop at NASA's door?

The first determinations of a circumference of the Earth, from the work of both Norwood and the French Geodesic Mission, were made in the 1600s and 1700s. Within reasonable bounds of error for the time, their results agreed, and further work since then has simply refined the figure.

NASA came along 400 years or so later. What's it to do with them?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2021, 12:14:03 AM »
The first determinations of a circumference of the Earth, from the work of both Norwood and the French Geodesic Mission, were made in the 1600s and 1700s. Within reasonable bounds of error for the time, their results agreed, and further work since then has simply refined the figure.

The Greek astronomer Eratosthenes calculated the size within 5% of todays value in ~200BC.

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 1119
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2021, 06:22:07 PM »
The first determinations of a circumference of the Earth, from the work of both Norwood and the French Geodesic Mission, were made in the 1600s and 1700s. Within reasonable bounds of error for the time, their results agreed, and further work since then has simply refined the figure.

The Greek astronomer Eratosthenes calculated the size within 5% of todays value in ~200BC.
BWHAHAHA!

The fact with all of these high falootin gadgets of today and some joker, that you have no objective evidence of actually existing, is magically within five percent of our most precise instruments speaks more to the reluctance of needing accuracy than it does the imagined rotundity of the earth.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 9097
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2021, 11:17:00 PM »
The modern method is just the same method as Eratosthenes' method, and uses Eratosthenes' same assumptions.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Measuring-the-Earth-Modernized-1673316

Quote
In its modern form, the method requires the following elements: two stations on the same meridian of longitude, which play the same parts as Aswan and Alexandria in the method of Eratosthenes of Cyrene (c. 276–c. 194 BC); a precise determination of the angular height of a designated star at the same time from the two stations; and two perfectly level and accurately measured baselines a few kilometres long near each station. What was new 2,000 years after Eratosthenes was the accuracy of the stellar positions and the measured distance between the stations, accomplished through the use of the baselines.

It would be a better argument if it wasn't just the same thing done again.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2021, 11:18:32 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2021, 11:26:02 PM »
The modern method is just the same method as Eratosthenes' method, and uses Eratosthenes' same assumptions.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Measuring-the-Earth-Modernized-1673316

Quote
In its modern form, the method requires the following elements: two stations on the same meridian of longitude, which play the same parts as Aswan and Alexandria in the method of Eratosthenes of Cyrene (c. 276–c. 194 BC); a precise determination of the angular height of a designated star at the same time from the two stations; and two perfectly level and accurately measured baselines a few kilometres long near each station. What was new 2,000 years after Eratosthenes was the accuracy of the stellar positions and the measured distance between the stations, accomplished through the use of the baselines.

It would be a better argument if it wasn't just the same thing done again.
On the contrary, its STILL a good argument (there are many others of course as well).

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 2371
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2021, 09:15:04 AM »
A variation on the Eratosthenes experiment:

"These are the results of a group project which took place during the September Equinox 2017. 23 participants in 9 different countries conducted a simple scientific experiment similar to that of Eratosthenes over 2000 years ago.

The test is simple. Using the Latitude of each participant (as Longitude will be either 180° or 0°) The sun's elevation angle was measured during Solar Noon. These angles were then placed across both a Flat Plane and a Sphere to see which model the angles correspond to.

Do I have to tell you the results?

Additionally, ALL ANGLES concurred with the angles displayed on:
timeanddate.com
suncalc.org
Stellarium"




The crux of the biscuit is at about the 7:30 mark. FE has line of sight angles varying, GE has them line up straight and perpendicular to a globe earth as predicted and observed.

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 2767
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2021, 09:47:08 AM »
The first determinations of a circumference of the Earth, from the work of both Norwood and the French Geodesic Mission, were made in the 1600s and 1700s. Within reasonable bounds of error for the time, their results agreed, and further work since then has simply refined the figure.

The Greek astronomer Eratosthenes calculated the size within 5% of todays value in ~200BC.
BWHAHAHA!

The fact with all of these high falootin gadgets of today and some joker, that you have no objective evidence of actually existing, is magically within five percent of our most precise instruments speaks more to the reluctance of needing accuracy than it does the imagined rotundity of the earth.

We do have objective evidence that Norwood existed. He wrote a book detailing his findings;

https://archive.org/details/norwood-1699-the-sea-man-s-practice

That's every bit as much evidence as we have that Rowbotham existed and did stuff.

- - -


=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 2767
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2021, 09:56:51 AM »
It would be a better argument if it wasn't just the same thing done again.

Norwood and the French Geodesic used different methods, as I recall.

Norwood measured from London to York, the distance on the surface, accounting for hills and diversions, then used that, along with angular difference, to calculate degrees of arc he had covered.

The French triangulated between hilltops and used this network of triangles with angular difference.

And they arrived at the same figure, given reasonable bounds for error given their methods.



Want a different method?

Take the documented speed and height of the ISS to calculate a circumference based on its orbit radius. Confirm the orbital time corresponding to the speed by personal observation. 

Deduct the height above the surface and recalculate to give a surface circumference, and you get the same figure as Norwood et al, within reasonable bounds of error.


=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 2767
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2021, 10:01:05 AM »
It would be a better argument if it wasn't just the same thing done again.

If Rowbottom's Bedford Canal was done again with laser pointers instead of human line of sight, would that be "same thing done again", or would it be something new?

=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 9097
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2021, 07:45:37 PM »
A variation on the Eratosthenes experiment:

"These are the results of a group project which took place during the September Equinox 2017. 23 participants in 9 different countries conducted a simple scientific experiment similar to that of Eratosthenes over 2000 years ago.

The test is simple. Using the Latitude of each participant (as Longitude will be either 180° or 0°) The sun's elevation angle was measured during Solar Noon. These angles were then placed across both a Flat Plane and a Sphere to see which model the angles correspond to.

Do I have to tell you the results?

Additionally, ALL ANGLES concurred with the angles displayed on:
timeanddate.com
suncalc.org
Stellarium"


https://youtu.be/V03eF0bcYno

The crux of the biscuit is at about the 7:30 mark. FE has line of sight angles varying, GE has them line up straight and perpendicular to a globe earth as predicted and observed.

All invalidated by the possibility of EA. I would suggest actually directly rebutting the arguments directly rather than reposting old things.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 07:50:58 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Cypher9

  • *
  • Posts: 109
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2021, 08:04:47 PM »
I'd like to know what shape the earth is so yes, I'd like to go into space. I don't know what the shape of the earth is for sure but as we can't rely on NASA to tell us the truth after all the lies they've already told us ....

Why does the buck stop at NASA's door?

The first determinations of a circumference of the Earth, from the work of both Norwood and the French Geodesic Mission, were made in the 1600s and 1700s. Within reasonable bounds of error for the time, their results agreed, and further work since then has simply refined the figure.

NASA came along 400 years or so later. What's it to do with them?

To answer your question, I think it's because they are the most influential force out there today promoting the globe idea.

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 2371
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2021, 08:48:34 PM »
I'd like to know what shape the earth is so yes, I'd like to go into space. I don't know what the shape of the earth is for sure but as we can't rely on NASA to tell us the truth after all the lies they've already told us ....

Why does the buck stop at NASA's door?

The first determinations of a circumference of the Earth, from the work of both Norwood and the French Geodesic Mission, were made in the 1600s and 1700s. Within reasonable bounds of error for the time, their results agreed, and further work since then has simply refined the figure.

NASA came along 400 years or so later. What's it to do with them?

To answer your question, I think it's because they are the most influential force out there today promoting the globe idea.

I would argue that the most influential force out there today promoting space travel/exploration, at least in the popular culture, is probably Space X, Blue Origin, and Virgin Galactic. As a byproduct of space travel/exploration is the engineering for these and all of the other space institutions/corporations predicated on globe earth calculations and instruments and technology to make for successful events.

I'm unaware of any space institutions/corporations that use tech predicated on a flat earth belief. With the possible exception of 'Mad' Mike Hughes.

In short, I don't believe any of these space institutions or companies are in the business of "promoting" a globe earth. It's but a subset of what their overall business and exploration objectives are.

Offline Cypher9

  • *
  • Posts: 109
    • View Profile
Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2021, 09:01:12 PM »
Of course you don't believe it, you're in too deep. The matrix has too much of a hold on you mate  ;D

Re: I'm new here! A bunch of generic questions?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2021, 02:07:24 AM »
Of course you don't believe it, you're in too deep. The matrix has too much of a hold on you mate  ;D

No model of a flat earth can explain the world we see (and that anyone can see if you just look, the path of the sun, the visible stars, the day/night line, no south pole ice wall every seen, and on and on).
FE proponents can not explain how space tech (GPS, sat phones, comm sats, earth monitoring sats) actualy function as claimed providing correct data.
FE proponents can not explain how the 10s or 100s of thousands of people involved in this conspiracy for the last 70 years or so have managed to keep it secret withou a single person spilling the beans.

And you claim others are "in too deep"?  Look in the mirror.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 02:19:06 AM by ichoosereality »