Offline Cypher9

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2021, 09:10:51 PM »
Perhaps they just used the same model. The thing is we should be able to see stars behind the earth and we don't which makes no sense - you should be able to at least see something. They say you can't see stars in space but NASA contradicts itself on that score. The Apollo team says you can't whilst the ISS team says you can - are they both correct? I don't see how.

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Offline stack

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2021, 09:34:52 PM »
Perhaps they just used the same model. The thing is we should be able to see stars behind the earth and we don't which makes no sense - you should be able to at least see something. They say you can't see stars in space but NASA contradicts itself on that score. The Apollo team says you can't whilst the ISS team says you can - are they both correct? I don't see how.

Can Astronauts See Stars From the Space Station?
https://www.universetoday.com/136802/can-astronauts-see-stars-space-station/

I’ve often been asked the question, “Can the astronauts on the Space Station see the stars?” Astronaut Jack Fischer provides an unequivocal answer of “yes!” with a recent post on Twitter of a timelapse he took from the ISS...

But, you might be saying, “how can this be? I thought the astronauts on the Moon couldn’t see any stars, so how can anyone see stars in space?”

It is a common misconception that the Apollo astronauts didn’t see any stars. While stars don’t show up in the pictures from the Apollo missions, that’s because the camera exposures were set to allow for good images of the bright sunlit lunar surface, which included astronauts in bright white space suits and shiny spacecraft. Apollo astronauts reported they could see the brighter stars if they stood in the shadow of the Lunar Module, and also they saw stars while orbiting the far side of the Moon. Al Worden from Apollo 15 has said the sky was “awash with stars” in the view from the far side of the Moon that was not in daylight.
Just like stargazers on Earth need dark skies to see stars, so too when you’re in space.

Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2021, 09:37:29 PM »
Perhaps they just used the same model. The thing is we should be able to see stars behind the earth and we don't which makes no sense - you should be able to at least see something. They say you can't see stars in space but NASA contradicts itself on that score. The Apollo team says you can't whilst the ISS team says you can - are they both correct? I don't see how.

When you say "behind" do you mean in photos like the blue marble?
You understand that the earth is a LOT brighter than the stars? If you're taking a photo then the exposure settings of a camera can't be adjusted for the earth's brightness and the stars at the same time. It's the same reason you can't see the stars in photos taken on the moon.
The ISS and the Apollo astronauts aren't the same. The Apollo astronauts were on the moon in the lunar day, which is a bit like being on the Earth in the day time - you can't see the stars because it's too bright. There is a difference - the earth has an atmosphere and the moon does not, but with the brightness of the moon's surface it would still be difficult to see them. But they could see some stars if they stood in the shadow of the lunar module and they could certainly see them while orbiting the moon and on the journey from/to it:

https://www.universetoday.com/136802/can-astronauts-see-stars-space-station/

The same would apply on the ISS when they're on the night side of the earth.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Offline Cypher9

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2021, 10:46:01 PM »

When you say "behind" do you mean in photos like the blue marble?
You understand that the earth is a LOT brighter than the stars? If you're taking a photo then the exposure settings of a camera can't be adjusted for the earth's brightness and the stars at the same time. It's the same reason you can't see the stars in photos taken on the moon.
The ISS and the Apollo astronauts aren't the same. The Apollo astronauts were on the moon in the lunar day, which is a bit like being on the Earth in the day time - you can't see the stars because it's too bright. There is a difference - the earth has an atmosphere and the moon does not, but with the brightness of the moon's surface it would still be difficult to see them. But they could see some stars if they stood in the shadow of the lunar module and they could certainly see them while orbiting the moon and on the journey from/to it:

https://www.universetoday.com/136802/can-astronauts-see-stars-space-station/

The same would apply on the ISS when they're on the night side of the earth.

Exposure isn't much of a excuse in this day and age. Why not use two cameras with separate exposure settings? Apparently the real reason is stars can't be seen at all out in space.

Offline Cypher9

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2021, 10:48:21 PM »

But, you might be saying, “how can this be? I thought the astronauts on the Moon couldn’t see any stars, so how can anyone see stars in space?”

It is a common misconception that the Apollo astronauts didn’t see any stars. While stars don’t show up in the pictures from the Apollo missions, that’s because the camera exposures were set to allow for good images of the bright sunlit lunar surface, which included astronauts in bright white space suits and shiny spacecraft. Apollo astronauts reported they could see the brighter stars if they stood in the shadow of the Lunar Module, and also they saw stars while orbiting the far side of the Moon. Al Worden from Apollo 15 has said the sky was “awash with stars” in the view from the far side of the Moon that was not in daylight.
Just like stargazers on Earth need dark skies to see stars, so too when you’re in space.[/i]

Michael Collins said he couldn't see any stars at all and he was supposedly orbiting the moon.

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Offline stack

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2021, 11:58:05 PM »

But, you might be saying, “how can this be? I thought the astronauts on the Moon couldn’t see any stars, so how can anyone see stars in space?”

It is a common misconception that the Apollo astronauts didn’t see any stars. While stars don’t show up in the pictures from the Apollo missions, that’s because the camera exposures were set to allow for good images of the bright sunlit lunar surface, which included astronauts in bright white space suits and shiny spacecraft. Apollo astronauts reported they could see the brighter stars if they stood in the shadow of the Lunar Module, and also they saw stars while orbiting the far side of the Moon. Al Worden from Apollo 15 has said the sky was “awash with stars” in the view from the far side of the Moon that was not in daylight.
Just like stargazers on Earth need dark skies to see stars, so too when you’re in space.[/i]

Michael Collins said he couldn't see any stars at all and he was supposedly orbiting the moon.

Are you sure about that?

Regarding going around the dark side of the moon with no radio contact for an hour:

If a count were taken,” Collins famously wrote in his 1974 memoir Carrying the Fire, “the score would be three billion plus two over on the other side of the moon, and one plus God only knows what on this side. I like the feeling. Outside my window I can see stars — and that is all. Where I know the moon to be, there is simply a black void.”

Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2021, 06:50:20 AM »
There’s a chapter in “A Man on The Moon”, an excellent book on all this by Andrew Chaikin which I’d heartily recommend, called “A Hole In The Stars” which describes much the same thing. They could see a sea of stars and then when at the right angle there was an ominous hole where the moon was
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2021, 12:35:38 PM »
If these were fake it would mean that the Japanese space agency is actively faking images in real-time, with perfect knowledge of cloud patterns, at dozens of frequencies, to produce a perfect simulation of what the world currently looks like from above Australia! That would be an incredible feat of technology. Not only that, but all of the data from all of these must be faked in real-time too (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Earth_observation_satellites)
Setting up the same random generator seed in multiple systems would not actually be all that hard. It takes 1-2 lines of code at best. If you consider that an "incredible feat of technology", I have a sneaking suspicion you might be easily impressed, and not particularly tech-literate.
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Offline scomato

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2021, 07:31:55 PM »
If these were fake it would mean that the Japanese space agency is actively faking images in real-time, with perfect knowledge of cloud patterns, at dozens of frequencies, to produce a perfect simulation of what the world currently looks like from above Australia! That would be an incredible feat of technology. Not only that, but all of the data from all of these must be faked in real-time too (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Earth_observation_satellites)
Setting up the same random generator seed in multiple systems would not actually be all that hard. It takes 1-2 lines of code at best. If you consider that an "incredible feat of technology", I have a sneaking suspicion you might be easily impressed, and not particularly tech-literate.

Suppose all satellite imagery and the entire satellite-weather industry is a hoax predicated upon a few lines of code that are procedurally generating clouds from a seed. Furthermore, this procedurally generated cloud-pattern just-so happens to perfectly mirror the weather of real life.

That doesn't explain why the satellites pick up large amounts of smoke from wildfires.





So is the tech-literate take here then?

That wildfires are being set on purpose by Globers to align with the prediction of the Cloud Generator program?

Or that the Cloud Generator program is so perfect that it can even predict and simulate the effects of wildfires?

Or that there is a separate Wildfire Generation program running on top of the Cloud Generator program? 

Remember, all of the Clouds and the Smoke would be coming from a single unchanging seed, or else all of the weather satellites would not be capturing identical images, consistent with authentic satellites taking authentic photographs of the Earth. Change the seed by even 1 number and everything is wildly different.

If you are seriously suggesting that procedural simulation programs are predicting and modelling all weather events, you're describing the holy-grail of meteorology - however this is unlikely because Chaos Theory posits that even near-future weather prediction is impossible. lavoisier.com.au/articles/climate-policy/science-and-policy/chaos-theory-and-weather-prediction.pdf "MIT professor Dr. Edward Lorenz, and has essential implications for climate modelling. In the 2007 interview, Dr. Lorenz confirms that chaos theory proves that weather and climate cannot be predicted beyond the very short term [about 3 weeks], and that even with today's state-of-the-art observing systems and models, weather [or climate] still cannot be predicted even 2 weeks in advance."

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2021, 07:51:21 PM »
If you are seriously suggesting that procedural simulation programs are predicting and modelling all weather events
I'm not. You're the one who claimed it would be difficult for multiple sources to remain consistent. It wouldn't be.

Now you're changing your argument to claim that mapping external data onto a map would be difficult. I'm not sure how you think that helps - you just made your original problem less difficult.
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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2021, 08:41:54 PM »
If you are seriously suggesting that procedural simulation programs are predicting and modelling all weather events
I'm not. You're the one who claimed it would be difficult for multiple sources to remain consistent. It wouldn't be.

Now you're changing your argument to claim that mapping external data onto a map would be difficult. I'm not sure how you think that helps - you just made your original problem less difficult.

He's not changing his argument. He's very clear in his original post that he's not just talking about the difficulty of multiple sources to remain consistent with each other - which I agree is not difficult - but that the sources need to be consistent with real world observations of clouds, smoke from wildfires etc too. I'd suggest that's a harder problem to solve.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2021, 08:45:26 PM »
I'd suggest that's a harder problem to solve.
Well, I just stated that it's an easier problem - we're no longer thinking about how difficult it would be to generate data, just plot it on a surface of any given choice. Since this is clearly a much simpler problem, it leaves us at a bit of an impasse.
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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2021, 08:53:57 PM »
I'd suggest that's a harder problem to solve.
Well, I just stated that it's an easier problem - we're no longer thinking about how difficult it would be to generate data, just plot it on a surface of any given choice. Since this is clearly a much simpler problem, it leaves us at a bit of an impasse.
How is it easier? Generating random cloud patterns is not particularly difficult.
Getting them to align with real world observations - the starting point for that is having observations all round the, ahem, disc and then feeding that into the systems. You might argue that programmatically that's easier (not entirely sure that's true), but the logistics of having observations to feed in to the systems are surely a bigger complicating factor.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2021, 09:15:07 PM »
How is it easier? Generating random cloud patterns is not particularly difficult.
I agree. However, if you just take this information from an external source, then you have even less work to do - you just skip the generation step.

the logistics of having observations to feed in to the systems are surely a bigger complicating factor.
How so? This is clearly what RET proposes - real data is being fed into the systems that illustrate it. Why on Earth would you argue against this?
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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2021, 09:20:50 PM »
the logistics of having observations to feed in to the systems are surely a bigger complicating factor.
How so? This is clearly what RET proposes - real data is being fed into the systems that illustrate it. Why on Earth would you argue against this?
The difference is the RE claim is that the satellites provide the data which show images from space of cloud formations, smoke trails from forest fires.
The FE claim - maybe not yours, but some FE claims - are that satellites aren't real so these images are faked. In order for that to be true AND for the images to match real world observations there has to be some other data source which is feeding in, in real time, to the faking of those images. It's the logistics of the other data source which I'm claiming is complex.

In RE the satellites ARE the data source.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2021, 09:47:56 PM »
The FE claim - maybe not yours, but some FE claims - are that satellites aren't real so these images are faked.
Fair enough. I'll have to leave that line of argument to anyone who believes satellites are fake.
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Offline Cypher9

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2021, 01:58:02 PM »

But, you might be saying, “how can this be? I thought the astronauts on the Moon couldn’t see any stars, so how can anyone see stars in space?”

It is a common misconception that the Apollo astronauts didn’t see any stars. While stars don’t show up in the pictures from the Apollo missions, that’s because the camera exposures were set to allow for good images of the bright sunlit lunar surface, which included astronauts in bright white space suits and shiny spacecraft. Apollo astronauts reported they could see the brighter stars if they stood in the shadow of the Lunar Module, and also they saw stars while orbiting the far side of the Moon. Al Worden from Apollo 15 has said the sky was “awash with stars” in the view from the far side of the Moon that was not in daylight.
Just like stargazers on Earth need dark skies to see stars, so too when you’re in space.[/i]

Michael Collins said he couldn't see any stars at all and he was supposedly orbiting the moon.

Are you sure about that?

Regarding going around the dark side of the moon with no radio contact for an hour:

If a count were taken,” Collins famously wrote in his 1974 memoir Carrying the Fire, “the score would be three billion plus two over on the other side of the moon, and one plus God only knows what on this side. I like the feeling. Outside my window I can see stars — and that is all. Where I know the moon to be, there is simply a black void.”

He said he couldn't remember seeing any at the Apollo 11 conference 

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Offline stack

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2021, 07:36:40 PM »

But, you might be saying, “how can this be? I thought the astronauts on the Moon couldn’t see any stars, so how can anyone see stars in space?”

It is a common misconception that the Apollo astronauts didn’t see any stars. While stars don’t show up in the pictures from the Apollo missions, that’s because the camera exposures were set to allow for good images of the bright sunlit lunar surface, which included astronauts in bright white space suits and shiny spacecraft. Apollo astronauts reported they could see the brighter stars if they stood in the shadow of the Lunar Module, and also they saw stars while orbiting the far side of the Moon. Al Worden from Apollo 15 has said the sky was “awash with stars” in the view from the far side of the Moon that was not in daylight.
Just like stargazers on Earth need dark skies to see stars, so too when you’re in space.[/i]

Michael Collins said he couldn't see any stars at all and he was supposedly orbiting the moon.

Are you sure about that?

Regarding going around the dark side of the moon with no radio contact for an hour:

If a count were taken,” Collins famously wrote in his 1974 memoir Carrying the Fire, “the score would be three billion plus two over on the other side of the moon, and one plus God only knows what on this side. I like the feeling. Outside my window I can see stars — and that is all. Where I know the moon to be, there is simply a black void.”

He said he couldn't remember seeing any at the Apollo 11 conference 

This is what happens when some context is removed. Don’t watch some cherry-picked clip with someone else’s biased narrative all over it. Watch the actual source. As in here:



47:13
Questioner: I have two brief questions I'd like to ask if I may when you were carrying out that incredible moonwalk did you find that the surface was equally firm anywhere or whether harder on softer spots that you could detect and secondly when you looked up at the sky could you actually see the stars and the silica River in spite of the glare?

Skipping forward to the “stars” answer:

48:22
Armstrong: ….we were never able to see stars from the lunar surface or on the daylight side of the Moon without looking through the optics I don't recall during the period of time that we were photographing the SONA curl of what what stars we could see...

Collins (Turning to Neil):  I don’t remember seeing any.

Collins is adding on to Neil’s statement, as in, no, they couldn’t see any stars on the daylight side of the moon. Just like we can’t see stars on the daylight side of earth. He wasn’t saying they never saw stars throughout the mission, just not in the “day time”. Which obviously makes sense. And context is everything.

And like I previously mentioned, Collins was pretty clear in his book that on the dark side of the moon it was “awash with stars”.

Not to mention that they used the stars for checking their navigation to and from the Moon:

14:16
Aldrin: ...we also made use of the Stars through the telescope and aligning a crosshair by rotating the field of view until the crosshair superimposed on the star this would give us the angular measurement of the star within the field of view of the telescope we then determine the distance...

So yeah, they saw stars, when it was dark enough to do so.

Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2021, 08:32:56 PM »
From the aforementioned book, I misremembered - this was actually from Apollo 8, the first one to go around the moon:

"The men were running through the checklist for the burn [the one to put them in to lunar orbit] when suddenly the spacecraft was enveloped by darkness. Anders realised they were in the deep shadow of the moon. As his eyes adapted, he saw that the sky was full of stars, so many he could not recognise constellations. He craned toward the flat glass to look back over his shoulder, where they were headed, and he noticed a distinct arc beyond which there were no stars at all, only blackness. All at once he was hit with the eerie realisation that this hole in the stars was the moon"
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Offline Action80

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Re: Do the images of planets prove we live on a globe?
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2021, 12:24:59 PM »

But, you might be saying, “how can this be? I thought the astronauts on the Moon couldn’t see any stars, so how can anyone see stars in space?”

It is a common misconception that the Apollo astronauts didn’t see any stars. While stars don’t show up in the pictures from the Apollo missions, that’s because the camera exposures were set to allow for good images of the bright sunlit lunar surface, which included astronauts in bright white space suits and shiny spacecraft. Apollo astronauts reported they could see the brighter stars if they stood in the shadow of the Lunar Module, and also they saw stars while orbiting the far side of the Moon. Al Worden from Apollo 15 has said the sky was “awash with stars” in the view from the far side of the Moon that was not in daylight.
Just like stargazers on Earth need dark skies to see stars, so too when you’re in space.[/i]

Michael Collins said he couldn't see any stars at all and he was supposedly orbiting the moon.

Are you sure about that?

Regarding going around the dark side of the moon with no radio contact for an hour:

If a count were taken,” Collins famously wrote in his 1974 memoir Carrying the Fire, “the score would be three billion plus two over on the other side of the moon, and one plus God only knows what on this side. I like the feeling. Outside my window I can see stars — and that is all. Where I know the moon to be, there is simply a black void.”

He said he couldn't remember seeing any at the Apollo 11 conference 

This is what happens when some context is removed. Don’t watch some cherry-picked clip with someone else’s biased narrative all over it. Watch the actual source. As in here:



47:13
Questioner: I have two brief questions I'd like to ask if I may when you were carrying out that incredible moonwalk did you find that the surface was equally firm anywhere or whether harder on softer spots that you could detect and secondly when you looked up at the sky could you actually see the stars and the silica River in spite of the glare?

Skipping forward to the “stars” answer:

48:22
Armstrong: ….we were never able to see stars from the lunar surface or on the daylight side of the Moon without looking through the optics I don't recall during the period of time that we were photographing the SONA curl of what what stars we could see...

Collins (Turning to Neil):  I don’t remember seeing any.

Collins is adding on to Neil’s statement, as in, no, they couldn’t see any stars on the daylight side of the moon. Just like we can’t see stars on the daylight side of earth. He wasn’t saying they never saw stars throughout the mission, just not in the “day time”. Which obviously makes sense. And context is everything.

And like I previously mentioned, Collins was pretty clear in his book that on the dark side of the moon it was “awash with stars”.

Not to mention that they used the stars for checking their navigation to and from the Moon:

14:16
Aldrin: ...we also made use of the Stars through the telescope and aligning a crosshair by rotating the field of view until the crosshair superimposed on the star this would give us the angular measurement of the star within the field of view of the telescope we then determine the distance...

So yeah, they saw stars, when it was dark enough to do so.
Yeah, just interpreting very clear cut statements as to what you want them to mean is typical.

As if they ever went to the supposed dark side.

Armstrong and Collins were quite clear.

They never saw stars.

Perhaps the reason is more in line with the fact they never went to the moon to begin with.