Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2021, 05:09:01 PM »
Orion is a spaceship designed to carry astronauts but as yet is unable to because of the dangerous radiation in the belts that we're told may affect the electronics on board. These are the facts.
They aren’t facts. There haven’t been any Orion missions yet so we don’t know how effective the radiation shielding will be. What the guy is saying is that they need to test it with unmanned missions before they do manned missions. As I’ve said, this is fairly common practice. And electronics are very different how to they were in the Apollo area.

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For some strange reason though, it wasn't a problem 50 years ago when the astronauts had hardly any shielding and still felt no ill effects from that radiation.
Except none of that is true. It was a problem which was considered. There was shielding to mitigate it. They were monitoring the radiation dose the astronauts received and while the dosages were not enough to do immediate noticeable damage, there is evidence that it had a long term effect. I have provided a link to an article about that. And one factor here is that they are a lot more risk adverse now. In the space race there was huge political pressure to get the job done. That isn’t the case now. You are not comparing like for like.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2021, 05:26:27 PM »
NASA engineer admits they can’t get past the Van Allen Belts

That's the title of the video, not a verbatim quote from what the guy said. I did ask for a verbatim quote from NASA, not from the YouTuber titling the video.


...we must solve these challenges before we send people through this region of space

The challenges referred to are engineering challenges. For the crew to travel safely, they must rely on the engineering of their craft, and it's this which is being tested.

From the YouTube transcript of his speech; I added punctuation for clarity, and omitted non-relevant sections (...) but have not changed any words, so it's essentially verbatim;

Quote
my name is Kelly Smith ... before we can send astronauts into space on Orion we have to test all of its systems and there's only one way to know if we got it right - fly it in space. For Orion's first flight no astronauts will be aboard; the spacecraft is loaded with sensors to record and measure all aspects of the flight in every detail. It all begins with launch
...  as we get further away from Earth, we'll pass through the Van Allen belts. An area of dangerous radiation. Radiation like this can harm the guidance systems, onboard computers, or other electronics. On Orion naturally we have to pass through this danger zone twice - once up and once back but Orion has protection; shielding will be put to the test as the vehicle cuts through the waves of radiation.  Sensors aboard will record radiation levels for scientists to study. We must solve these challenges before we send people through this region of space

Again, he's referring to the engineering challenges of making sure the systems work OK - for the astronauts have to depend on them. If the systems go awry, astronauts could die.

There is nothing here which even hints that Orion flights are being prevented by adverse effects on the astronauts.


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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2021, 05:33:31 PM »
For some strange reason though, it wasn't a problem 50 years ago

Different systems. Rope-core memory in the computers. Not the same degree of miniaturisation that we have today.

Again, Apollo took a trajectory which avoided the dense areas of the belts, and this is not/may not be optimum for Orion's projected missions, and Orion is expected to spend longer in the belts than Apollo did.

Again, the Apollo astronauts' dose was recorded, and was far below dangerous levels. Why would they feel ill-effects?  (See AATW's comment about effects later in life, though)

Why don't they rebuild the Apollo systems? Because they want the systems on Orion to do more than they did then, and do things differently, surely?

« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 05:35:11 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2021, 05:58:18 PM »
Orion is a spaceship designed to carry astronauts but as yet is unable to because of the dangerous radiation in the belts that we're told may affect the electronics on board. These are the facts.
They aren’t facts. There haven’t been any Orion missions yet so we don’t know how effective the radiation shielding will be. What the guy is saying is that they need to test it with unmanned missions before they do manned missions. As I’ve said, this is fairly common practice. And electronics are very different how to they were in the Apollo area.

Quote
For some strange reason though, it wasn't a problem 50 years ago when the astronauts had hardly any shielding and still felt no ill effects from that radiation.
Except none of that is true. It was a problem which was considered. There was shielding to mitigate it. They were monitoring the radiation dose the astronauts received and while the dosages were not enough to do immediate noticeable damage, there is evidence that it had a long term effect. I have provided a link to an article about that. And one factor here is that they are a lot more risk adverse now. In the space race there was huge political pressure to get the job done. That isn’t the case now. You are not comparing like for like.

What we do know though is the command module shielding was nowhere near sufficient enough to protect the astronauts from the amount of radiation in the belts so all your shill-spiel about monitoring radiation doses and the astronauts not being in the belts for very long etc. is palpable poop that although likely makes you chuckle while typing it isn't fooling anyone. Least of all me. You and I know very well, no one's been to the moon. The only question is when will you come clean about it?



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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2021, 06:06:21 PM »
What we do know though is the command module shielding was nowhere near sufficient enough to protect the astronauts from the amount of radiation in the belts ...

Citation and detail, please.

What was the "amount of radiation"

Why was the CM shielding insufficient?

no one's been to the moon

Third-party confirmations;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_evidence_for_Apollo_Moon_landings

First-hand evidence includes data, film, photo, live broadcasts, lunar samples retrieved from the surface, anecdotal evidence from participants, etc, etc.
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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2021, 06:34:36 PM »
What we do know though is the command module shielding was nowhere near sufficient enough to protect the astronauts from the amount of radiation in the belts
Can you provide a source for that claim?

I’m confused what you’re arguing here. Previously you seemed to be saying that whatever worked for the Apollo missions would work now, so why don’t they just do that. Now you seem to be claiming that the shielding didn’t work?

But as I and others are trying to explain, you are not comparing like for like for several reasons.

- Due to the political pressure in the Space Race they were less risk risk adverse than they are now. Plus there is evidence, which I have presented, that the Apollo astronauts did suffer long term consequences from their exposure. Obviously they would seek to do things better this time.

- The electronics are very different these days and the miniaturisation means they could be more susceptible to the effects. That obviously needs testing.

- The missions are very different. The Apollo astronauts went through the belts fast and there was an element of luck in that they didn’t get hit by any big solar activity. It was a calculated risk given that they weren’t hanging around long. The Orion missions are planned to be much longer so obviously a different approach is needed this time.

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so all your shill-spiel about monitoring radiation doses and the astronauts not being in the belts for very long etc. is palpable poop
Except I am providing sources and evidence, you are not. The “Aha! What about the Van Allen belts?” argument is weak for several reasons.

- People who argue that, especially those who claim that NASA are big fat liars are strangely credulous about the existence of these belts, given that they were discovered on a NASA mission.

- The belts WERE considered when planning the Apollo missions, there was some shielding, the radiation levels were being monitored and there is some evidence that the Apollo astronauts did suffer some long term effects

- The Orion missions are not comparable. They are longer and more ambitious. And the electronics are not comparable either.

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You and I know very well, no one's been to the moon. The only question is when will you come clean about it?

Read “A Man on The Moon” by Andrew Chaikin. A well researched book about the Apollo missions and the Mercury and Gemini programmes which preceded them. Then we can talk about whether all that could have been faked. Which is how this thread started - 3 VFX experts, people who actually work in the field, reviewing the Apollo footage and saying how that could not have been faked before the advent of CGI. Even with CGI you can generally tell although it is getting harder to.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2021, 06:38:48 PM »
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What was the "amount of radiation"

Enough to stop a geiger counter from working. [see vid above]

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Why was the CM shielding insufficient?

An inch or so of steel wouldn't be enough which is all it had according to NASA.

 https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/CSM06_Command_Module_Overview_pp39-52.pdf

We're talking nuclear explosion levels of radiation, the sort of amount you'd need 10 inches of steel to protect you according to NATO's Handbook On The Medical Aspects Of NBC Defensive Operations.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/doctrine/dod/fm8-9/1toc.htm

No one would enter such a dangerous area unless they were sure they'd be shielded sufficiently. The likes of Armstrong would have known about the belts and the danger they posed. They wouldn't have gone unless they knew for certain the shielding was going to be sufficient. These guys had families, there was no reason for them to go off on a suicide mission.


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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2021, 09:02:44 PM »
Quote
Again, why do you even believe in the VAB's regardless of whether a geiger counter strapped to a rocket 900 miles above the earth showed the measurements of radiation suddenly drop off, according to you know who, NASA?

It's a valid question. Why do I believe Dr. Van Allen and what he says? In his writings, he seems legit but on thinking about it how can anyone know the world is surrounded by rings of radiation? I was very impressed by this video from 1959 which explains the problems to spaceflight because of the belts and explains how Van Allen discovered them.



Quote
Refresher: As well, as AATW pointed out, what's with even bringing up the VAB's when it's creepy NASA that supposedly discovered them, with a rocket no less, 900 miles above Earth?

It was Dr. Van Allen who discovered them not NASA.

It says right in the transcript of the video:

"03:09
the chance came in 1958 when explorer 1
03:12
went into orbit
03:13
and it carried cosmic ray detectors and
03:15
a transmitter designed by dr van allen's
03:17
group"

What is Explorer 1?

Quote
Isn't NASA not at all to be trusted in your eyes?
I trust them when they say they can't get into space because of the radiation.

Why would you trust NASA with only that information? That seems very odd and, well, exceedingly hypocritical. 

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2021, 09:51:32 PM »
Quote
What was the "amount of radiation"

We're talking nuclear explosion levels of radiation, the sort of amount you'd need 10 inches of steel to protect you according to NATO's Handbook On The Medical Aspects Of NBC Defensive Operations.

No, we are not talking about nuclear explosion levels of radiation...

SP-368 Biomedical Results of Apollo
CHAPTER 3
RADIATION PROTECTION AND INSTRUMENTATION
by J. Vernon Bailey
Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center

"Results and Discussion
 
Average radiation doses were computed for each mission (table 2). Individual readings varied approximately 20 percent from the average because of differences in the shielding effectiveness of various parts of the Apollo spacecraft as well as differences in duties, movements, and locations of crewmen. Doses to blood-forming organs were approximately 40 percent lower than the values measured at the body surface. In comparison with the doses actually received, the maximum operational dose (MOD) limit for each of the Apollo missions was set at 400 rads (X-ray equivalent) to skin and 50 rads to the blood-forming organs.

Radiation doses measured during Apollo were significantly lower than the yearly average of 5 rem*** set by the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission for workers who use [112] radioactive materials in factories and institutions across the United States. Thus, radiation was not an operational problem during the Apollo Program. Doses received by the crewmen of Apollo missions 7 through 17 were small because no major solar-particle events occurred during those missions. One small event was detected by a radiation sensor outside the Apollo 12 spacecraft, but no increase in radiation dose to the crewmen inside the spacecraft was detected."

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-368/s2ch3.htm

Everything you want to know about how to safely transverse the belts: https://science.thewire.in/the-sciences/apollo-11-van-allen-radiation-belts-translunar-injection/

Excerpt:
"Further, knowing the belts’ absence above the poles, the altitude of the lower edge of the inner belt being ~600 km (well above the LEO) and the location of the South Atlantic anomaly, where doses are at a high 40 mrads/day at an altitude of 210 km allowed NASA to design the Apollo translunar injection (TLI) orbit in a way that the spacecraft would avoid the belts’ most dangerous parts."

Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2021, 10:17:43 PM »
https://flatearth.ws/james-van-allen

"The radiation belts of the Earth do, indeed, pose important constraints on the safety of human space flight.

The very energetic (tens to hundreds of MeV) protons in the inner radiation belt are the most dangerous and most difficult to shield against. Specifically, prolonged flights (i.e., ones of many months’ duration) of humans or other animals in orbits about the Earth must be conducted at altitudes less than about 250 miles in order to avoid significant radiation exposure.

A person in the cabin of a space shuttle in a circular equatorial orbit in the most intense region of the inner radiation belt, at an altitude of about 1000 miles, would be subjected to a fatal dosage of radiation in about one week.

However, the outbound and inbound trajectories of the Apollo spacecraft cut through the outer portions of the inner belt and because of their high speed spent only about 15 minutes in traversing the region and less than 2 hours in traversing the much less penetrating radiation in the outer radiation belt. The resulting radiation exposure for the round trip was less than 1% of a fatal dosage – a very minor risk among the far greater other risks of such flights. I made such estimates in the early 1960s and so informed NASA engineers who were planning the Apollo flights. These estimates are still reliable."
- James A. Van Allen
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2021, 12:08:30 PM »
Quote
What was the "amount of radiation"

We're talking nuclear explosion levels of radiation, the sort of amount you'd need 10 inches of steel to protect you according to NATO's Handbook On The Medical Aspects Of NBC Defensive Operations.

No, we are not talking about nuclear explosion levels of radiation...

SP-368 Biomedical Results of Apollo
CHAPTER 3
RADIATION PROTECTION AND INSTRUMENTATION
by J. Vernon Bailey
Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center

"Results and Discussion
 
Average radiation doses were computed for each mission (table 2). Individual readings varied approximately 20 percent from the average because of differences in the shielding effectiveness of various parts of the Apollo spacecraft as well as differences in duties, movements, and locations of crewmen. Doses to blood-forming organs were approximately 40 percent lower than the values measured at the body surface. In comparison with the doses actually received, the maximum operational dose (MOD) limit for each of the Apollo missions was set at 400 rads (X-ray equivalent) to skin and 50 rads to the blood-forming organs.

Radiation doses measured during Apollo were significantly lower than the yearly average of 5 rem*** set by the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission for workers who use [112] radioactive materials in factories and institutions across the United States. Thus, radiation was not an operational problem during the Apollo Program. Doses received by the crewmen of Apollo missions 7 through 17 were small because no major solar-particle events occurred during those missions. One small event was detected by a radiation sensor outside the Apollo 12 spacecraft, but no increase in radiation dose to the crewmen inside the spacecraft was detected."

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-368/s2ch3.htm

Everything you want to know about how to safely transverse the belts: https://science.thewire.in/the-sciences/apollo-11-van-allen-radiation-belts-translunar-injection/

Excerpt:
"Further, knowing the belts’ absence above the poles, the altitude of the lower edge of the inner belt being ~600 km (well above the LEO) and the location of the South Atlantic anomaly, where doses are at a high 40 mrads/day at an altitude of 210 km allowed NASA to design the Apollo translunar injection (TLI) orbit in a way that the spacecraft would avoid the belts’ most dangerous parts."

We're talking the sort of radiation that at the very least would have you spewing all over the controls in the CM. Certainly enough that would fry you very quickly.

'Our measurements show that the maximum radiation level as of 1958 is equivalent to between 10 and 100 roentgens per hour, depending on the still undetermined proportion of protons to electrons. Since a human being exposed for two days to even 10 roentgens would have only an even chance of survival, the radiation belts obviously present an obstacle to space flight' James Van Allen

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2021, 12:39:13 PM »
We're talking the sort of radiation that at the very least would have you spewing all over the controls in the CM. Certainly enough that would fry you very quickly.

'Our measurements show that the maximum radiation level as of 1958 is equivalent to between 10 and 100 roentgens per hour, depending on the still undetermined proportion of protons to electrons. Since a human being exposed for two days to even 10 roentgens would have only an even chance of survival, the radiation belts obviously present an obstacle to space flight' James Van Allen

OK, you accept that NASA sent up the Explorer rockets with Van Allen's equipment in the first place, but disbelieve them when they state what was actually measured during the Apollo missions.

And then you quote from Van Allen's preliminary work, from 11 years before Apollo 11; as if things weren't further quantified after that.... you quoted him from 1958, and

"The resulting radiation exposure for the round trip was less than 1% of a fatal dosage – a very minor risk among the far greater other risks of such flights. I made such estimates in the early 1960s and so informed NASA engineers who were planning the Apollo flights. These estimates are still reliable.""
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 12:49:12 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2021, 12:58:50 PM »
Quote
OK, you accept that NASA sent up the Explorer rockets with Van Allen's equipment in the first place, but disbelieve them when they state what was actually measured during the Apollo missions.

No, I don't believe I do. I thought Dr. Van Allen was working independently.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2021, 01:09:55 PM »
Quote
OK, you accept that NASA sent up the Explorer rockets with Van Allen's equipment in the first place, but disbelieve them when they state what was actually measured during the Apollo missions.

No, I don't believe I do. I thought Dr. Van Allen was working independently.

He didn't send his own rockets up.

How do you think the equipment got into the belts, other than by sending rockets into them?

You said the geiger counter overloaded. What do you think was carrying the geiger counter into that region of the belts?
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Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2021, 01:13:21 PM »
Quote
He didn't send his own rockets up.

How do you think the equipment got into the belts, other than by sending rockets into them?

He was working with a university I thought.

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2021, 01:18:28 PM »
Quote
He didn't send his own rockets up.

How do you think the equipment got into the belts, other than by sending rockets into them?

He was working with a university I thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_3
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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2021, 01:38:48 PM »
Quote
He didn't send his own rockets up.

How do you think the equipment got into the belts, other than by sending rockets into them?

He was working with a university I thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_3

I believe he sent up balloon rockets called 'rockoons'. I'm not sure what the point your making is, what does it matter if NASA was involved or not? NASA appears to have taken no notice of his findings.

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2021, 01:52:04 PM »
I believe he sent up balloon rockets called 'rockoons'.

In the early 1950s, which were reaching a height of around 122km. This was the initial phase of his work.

The inner VAB starts around 1,000km. So he had to place his equipment aboard military, at first, and later NASA rocketry to achieve these heights, in the later phase of his work. You're quoting stuff from the early phases as if it were final and conclusive. It wasn't.

His findings as provided to NASA were quoted above, and as you can see, he was of the opinion that the risks from VAB exposure were minimal.
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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2021, 09:28:18 PM »
Quote
Again, why do you even believe in the VAB's regardless of whether a geiger counter strapped to a rocket 900 miles above the earth showed the measurements of radiation suddenly drop off, according to you know who, NASA?

It's a valid question. Why do I believe Dr. Van Allen and what he says? In his writings, he seems legit but on thinking about it how can anyone know the world is surrounded by rings of radiation? I was very impressed by this video from 1959 which explains the problems to spaceflight because of the belts and explains how Van Allen discovered them.



Quote
Refresher: As well, as AATW pointed out, what's with even bringing up the VAB's when it's creepy NASA that supposedly discovered them, with a rocket no less, 900 miles above Earth?

It was Dr. Van Allen who discovered them not NASA.

It says right in the transcript of the video:

"03:09
the chance came in 1958 when explorer 1
03:12
went into orbit
03:13
and it carried cosmic ray detectors and
03:15
a transmitter designed by dr van allen's
03:17
group"

What is Explorer 1?

Quote
Isn't NASA not at all to be trusted in your eyes?
I trust them when they say they can't get into space because of the radiation.

Why would you trust NASA with only that information? That seems very odd and, well, exceedingly hypocritical.

Quote
exceedingly hypocritical

That's very hurtful and a stain on my good character.

I don't trust anything they say. Whatever it is they've said, I don't trust it. I think they lie about everything in order to keep us paying them billions of dollars. They're a demonic bunch of grifters if you ask me.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2021, 09:40:22 PM »
I don't trust anything they say. Whatever it is they've said, I don't trust it. I think they lie about everything in order to keep us paying them billions of dollars. They're a demonic bunch of grifters if you ask me.

This is just same old, same old unsubstantiated mud-slinging. "FE Nouveaux" as Pete called it.

NASA is the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

Is it just the "space" part you disbelieve, or do you reckon they're pulling the wool over your eyes in aeronautics too?
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