Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2021, 04:05:20 PM »
Orion can't get into space because of the belts yes or no? But in '69 it wasn't a problem...hmmm. So, the belts are more dangerous today than 50 years ago, has the radiation become more intense or something? It just seems odd that it was seen as such an insignificant issue 50 years ago that no one even mentioned it.

Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2021, 04:24:48 PM »
Orion can't get into space because of the belts yes or no?
No. But they have put shielding in which will need testing

https://www.nasa.gov/content/five-things-we-ll-learn-from-orion-s-first-flight-test

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But in '69 it wasn't a problem...hmmm. So, the belts are more dangerous today than 50 years ago, has the radiation become more intense or something?

No, it was a problem in '69. But the Apollo missions went through the belts quickly and they were monitoring the level of radiation the astronauts were exposed to. If you watch the recent Apollo 11 film you can clearly hear at one point mission control reading off the radiation levels. And there were some health consequences for those astronauts

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heart-health/deep-space-radiation-caused-heart-problems-apollo-astronauts-n618116

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It just seems odd that it was seen as such an insignificant issue 50 years ago that no one even mentioned it.
It was mentioned, it was monitored. And, while we're here, the Van Allen belts were discovered in an early NASA mission so it's quite funny how people who distrust everything NASA says suddenly believe them about that.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2021, 04:56:32 PM »
When I say it wasn't mentioned, I meant in later interviews and also during that conference. This is strange seeing as it is what is preventing space flight today. The radiation in the belts is so intense it can't even be measured by geiger counters but we're supposed to believe that the metal of the command module was sufficiently thick enough to shield the astronauts inside - I'm sorry but it's patently ridiculous. You would need 10 inches of steel to protect yourself from that amount of radiation and the walls of the command module were only an inch thick in places. And they were in the belts for long enough to get wet, that is for sure.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2021, 05:21:35 PM »
Which conference? The Apollo 11 post-mission?

The VABs are not "preventing space flight", nobody has said this.

Since Orion is projected to spend longer in the belts than Apollo, and because the electronics are of a totally different design, a testing regime is required to ensure that all behaves as it should.

And, as was said, the only reason you actually know about the VABs in the first place is because NASA sent up Van Allen's monitoring equipment on one of their missions. So ... you trust them when they say they are there, but distrust them on other stuff?

EDIT - further reading as to how Apollo avoided the dense regions - https://science.thewire.in/the-sciences/apollo-11-van-allen-radiation-belts-translunar-injection/

« Last Edit: August 05, 2021, 05:53:41 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline stack

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2021, 05:41:34 PM »
When I say it wasn't mentioned, I meant in later interviews and also during that conference. This is strange seeing as it is what is preventing space flight today. The radiation in the belts is so intense it can't even be measured by geiger counters but we're supposed to believe that the metal of the command module was sufficiently thick enough to shield the astronauts inside - I'm sorry but it's patently ridiculous. You would need 10 inches of steel to protect yourself from that amount of radiation and the walls of the command module were only an inch thick in places. And they were in the belts for long enough to get wet, that is for sure.

Where are you getting this knowledge you have of the existence of the VAB, its intensity, 10 inches of steel shielding is required, etc?

Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2021, 04:56:55 PM »
When I say it wasn't mentioned, I meant in later interviews and also during that conference. This is strange seeing as it is what is preventing space flight today. The radiation in the belts is so intense it can't even be measured by geiger counters but we're supposed to believe that the metal of the command module was sufficiently thick enough to shield the astronauts inside - I'm sorry but it's patently ridiculous. You would need 10 inches of steel to protect yourself from that amount of radiation and the walls of the command module were only an inch thick in places. And they were in the belts for long enough to get wet, that is for sure.

Where are you getting this knowledge you have of the existence of the VAB, its intensity, 10 inches of steel shielding is required, etc?

I'm just making it up as I go along.

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Offline stack

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2021, 05:13:54 PM »
When I say it wasn't mentioned, I meant in later interviews and also during that conference. This is strange seeing as it is what is preventing space flight today. The radiation in the belts is so intense it can't even be measured by geiger counters but we're supposed to believe that the metal of the command module was sufficiently thick enough to shield the astronauts inside - I'm sorry but it's patently ridiculous. You would need 10 inches of steel to protect yourself from that amount of radiation and the walls of the command module were only an inch thick in places. And they were in the belts for long enough to get wet, that is for sure.

Where are you getting this knowledge you have of the existence of the VAB, its intensity, 10 inches of steel shielding is required, etc?

I'm just making it up as I go along.

Good to know.

Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2021, 06:00:14 PM »
When I say it wasn't mentioned, I meant in later interviews and also during that conference. This is strange seeing as it is what is preventing space flight today. The radiation in the belts is so intense it can't even be measured by geiger counters but we're supposed to believe that the metal of the command module was sufficiently thick enough to shield the astronauts inside - I'm sorry but it's patently ridiculous. You would need 10 inches of steel to protect yourself from that amount of radiation and the walls of the command module were only an inch thick in places. And they were in the belts for long enough to get wet, that is for sure.

Just joshing. The information regarding the geiger measuring of radiation in the belts is recorded knowledge which I can fish out for you if you need it. The amount of steel you'd need to shield you from excessive amounts of radiation such as in a nuclear incident is to be found in the 'NATO Handbook On The Medical Aspects Of NBC Defensive Operations'. The thickness of the command module steel is also documented but I'm hoping you're not going to want me to go looking for it for you.

Where are you getting this knowledge you have of the existence of the VAB, its intensity, 10 inches of steel shielding is required, etc?

I'm just making it up as I go along.

Good to know.

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Offline stack

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2021, 06:47:32 PM »
When I say it wasn't mentioned, I meant in later interviews and also during that conference. This is strange seeing as it is what is preventing space flight today. The radiation in the belts is so intense it can't even be measured by geiger counters but we're supposed to believe that the metal of the command module was sufficiently thick enough to shield the astronauts inside - I'm sorry but it's patently ridiculous. You would need 10 inches of steel to protect yourself from that amount of radiation and the walls of the command module were only an inch thick in places. And they were in the belts for long enough to get wet, that is for sure.


Where are you getting this knowledge you have of the existence of the VAB, its intensity, 10 inches of steel shielding is required, etc?

I'm just making it up as I go along.

Good to know.

Just joshing. The information regarding the geiger measuring of radiation in the belts is recorded knowledge which I can fish out for you if you need it. The amount of steel you'd need to shield you from excessive amounts of radiation such as in a nuclear incident is to be found in the 'NATO Handbook On The Medical Aspects Of NBC Defensive Operations'. The thickness of the command module steel is also documented but I'm hoping you're not going to want me to go looking for it for you.

First off, work on your quoting. I kinda fixed it for you, it's a mess.

Secondly, you are making it up as you go along.

Thirdly, you say, "The radiation in the belts is so intense it can't even be measured by geiger counters..." Well it was, NASA's Explorer I had a Geiger counter at Van Allen's request and it recorded something they didn't expect, a lot of radiation we didn't know was there. In other words, it was measured, that's how they knew it was there. You're statement is completely illogical.

As well, as AATW pointed out, what's with even bringing up the VAB's when it's creepy NASA that supposedly discovered them, with a rocket no less, 900 miles above Earth? Isn't NASA not at all to be trusted in your eyes? It's always funny when conspiracists say that NASA is just a bunch of lies, but then cherrypick something and say, "Except for this..."

And as for you somehow divining the amount of VAB radiation, though you claim it can't be measured, and somehow applying info from the 'NATO Handbook On The Medical Aspects Of NBC Defensive Operations', found here, https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm8-9.pdf, to calculate the necessary protective thickness, 10" of steel, needed for the Apollo command module's skin, when there is no mention of anything regarding Apollo in the document. And again, you claim to not know the intensity of the VAB's. Umm, all of which makes little to no sense at.

So no, you're not just joshing. You are actually making it up as you go along.


Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2021, 06:54:13 PM »
Quote: Thirdly, you say, "The radiation in the belts is so intense it can't even be measured by geiger counters..." Well it was, NASA's Explorer I had a Geiger counter at Van Allen's request and it recorded something they didn't expect, a lot of radiation we didn't know was there. In other words, it was measured, that's how they knew it was there. You're statement is completely illogical.

I meant it was so intense it overloaded the geiger counters. So much that it couldn't be measured.

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Offline stack

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2021, 07:02:48 PM »
Quote: Thirdly, you say, "The radiation in the belts is so intense it can't even be measured by geiger counters..." Well it was, NASA's Explorer I had a Geiger counter at Van Allen's request and it recorded something they didn't expect, a lot of radiation we didn't know was there. In other words, it was measured, that's how they knew it was there. You're statement is completely illogical.

I meant it was so intense it overloaded the geiger counters. So much that it couldn't be measured.

Again, why do you even believe in the VAB's regardless of whether a geiger counter strapped to a rocket 900 miles above the earth showed the measurements of radiation suddenly drop off, according to you know who, NASA?
Refresher: As well, as AATW pointed out, what's with even bringing up the VAB's when it's creepy NASA that supposedly discovered them, with a rocket no less, 900 miles above Earth? Isn't NASA not at all to be trusted in your eyes? It's always funny when conspiracists say that NASA is just a bunch of lies, but then cherrypick something and say, "Except for this..."

And how exactly did you come up with your 10" thick steel shielding necessary for the command module?

Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2021, 11:14:09 AM »
Quote
Again, why do you even believe in the VAB's regardless of whether a geiger counter strapped to a rocket 900 miles above the earth showed the measurements of radiation suddenly drop off, according to you know who, NASA?

It's a valid question. Why do I believe Dr. Van Allen and what he says? In his writings, he seems legit but on thinking about it how can anyone know the world is surrounded by rings of radiation? I was very impressed by this video from 1959 which explains the problems to spaceflight because of the belts and explains how Van Allen discovered them.



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Refresher: As well, as AATW pointed out, what's with even bringing up the VAB's when it's creepy NASA that supposedly discovered them, with a rocket no less, 900 miles above Earth?

It was Dr. Van Allen who discovered them not NASA.


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Isn't NASA not at all to be trusted in your eyes?
I trust them when they say they can't get into space because of the radiation.


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Offline Tumeni

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2021, 12:37:34 PM »
It was Dr. Van Allen who discovered them not NASA.

How did he send instruments up to measure them, if not on NASA rocketry?

(EDIT - https://ir.uiowa.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1579&context=annals-of-iowa)

I trust them (NASA) when they say they can't get into space because of the radiation.

... but you're misquoting them. They did not say this.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 12:44:31 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2021, 12:56:50 PM »
Quote
How did he send instruments up to measure them, if not on NASA rocketry?

It explains in the video

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... but you're misquoting them. They did not say this.

They said Orion couldn't get through the belts. Didn't they?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2021, 01:03:32 PM »
They said Orion couldn't get through the belts. Didn't they?

Don't think so.

You can show us a verbatim quote, can't you?
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Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2021, 01:32:36 PM »
They said Orion couldn't get through the belts. Didn't they?

Don't think so.

You can show us a verbatim quote, can't you?

NASA engineer admits they can’t get past the Van Allen Belts



(3:00 mins in)

'...we must solve these challenges before we send people through this region of space'


Let me know if they've been solved, this video is quite old now.

Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2021, 02:31:31 PM »
NASA engineer admits they can’t get past the Van Allen Belts
In that video he is literally talking about an unmanned mission which goes through them.
He notes that the radiation could affect the electronics but they have shielding and monitors which will check the levels of radiation. And as I’ve noted, if you watch some of the Apollo 11 footage you can hear them talking about the radiation levels the astronauts were exposed to.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2021, 02:41:28 PM »
NASA engineer admits they can’t get past the Van Allen Belts
In that video he is literally talking about an unmanned mission which goes through them.
He notes that the radiation could affect the electronics but they have shielding and monitors which will check the levels of radiation. And as I’ve noted, if you watch some of the Apollo 11 footage you can hear them talking about the radiation levels the astronauts were exposed to.

'...we must solve these challenges before we send people through this region of space'

Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2021, 02:54:19 PM »
'...we must solve these challenges before we send people through this region of space'
Yes. They need to test the shielding and measure the radiation levels with unmanned missions before they send any people, which is exactly what they did with previous programmes.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Offline Cypher9

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Re: VFX Artists React to the Moon Landing
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2021, 03:09:30 PM »
'...we must solve these challenges before we send people through this region of space'
Yes. They need to test the shielding and measure the radiation levels with unmanned missions before they send any people, which is exactly what they did with previous programmes.

Orion is a spaceship designed to carry astronauts but as yet is unable to because of the dangerous radiation in the belts that we're told may affect the electronics on board. These are the facts. For some strange reason though, it wasn't a problem 50 years ago when the astronauts had hardly any shielding and still felt no ill effects from that radiation. Why don't they just employ whatever it was they employed back then when apparently just about every trip went without a hitch?