#### Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 9733
• Flat Earth Believer
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2021, 06:21:52 PM »
On light bending, look into what Dr. Edward Dowdye has to say: https://sciencewoke.org/nasa-scientist-says-coronas-bend-light-not-gravity/

#### Tumeni

• 2973
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2021, 06:28:17 PM »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### jimster

• 243
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2021, 04:43:57 AM »
None of the above explains this, I will try to express the issue again.

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/  \

/    \                                                     _____
/      \______________________________\     /

I saw the top of the mountain and I saw the ocean between the boat and the shore. Where did the light rays from the shoreline (between them) go? Presumably, they follow parallel paths and remain between the mountain top rays and the ocean rays.

How could light rays from above them and below them reach me, but not the rays from the shore? It ain't distance, the mountain is behind the shore. Sure looked like the mountain was descending below the water.

This is the exact way it would appear with RE, but we are to prefer the explanation that requires unknown forces that you can't explain or demonstrate?

Tom Bishop, don't go away, that means you have no answer and the earth is round. You have to explain how the light rays disappear. Unknown forces? Conspiracy? Where are those light rays?

FE can't explain sharp cutoffs, everything in FE is gradual. No explanation for relatively quick transition of day to night, or the sharp cutoff of the sun as it rises and sets. FE has to do it with bending and distance, and those things are gradual. Explaining the sharp cutoffs requires light not to just bend, but to just disappear.
"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".

#### Tumeni

• 2973
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2021, 07:07:51 AM »
On light bending, look into what Dr. Edward Dowdye has to say: https://sciencewoke.org/nasa-scientist-says-coronas-bend-light-not-gravity/

Is it agreed that Rowbottom asserted straight light rays?

=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### fisherman

• 217
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2021, 05:05:43 PM »
On light bending, look into what Dr. Edward Dowdye has to say: https://sciencewoke.org/nasa-scientist-says-coronas-bend-light-not-gravity/

Quote
Therefore according to Dr. Dowdye, all the supposed gravitational lensing that scientists see is in reality, light passing through not empty space or space-time bending, but passing through mass and the mass in space is bending the light

The mass in space bends spacetime.  You can't separate the two concepts. If light moving through mass (not even sure how that could work) is what bends it, by definition it is moving through bent space time. Wherever there is mass, there is a bend in space time.
There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information

#### fisherman

• 217
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2021, 05:38:42 PM »
Quote
I am one such "space skeptic/denier", and have concluded that not only is "space" complete fiction (and has its origins, indisputably, in that medium) but that it cannot exist in the reality we study.  It would violate many well established natural laws which have stood for centuries without contest.

Quote
I am one such "space skeptic/denier", and have concluded that not only is "space" complete fiction (and has its origins, indisputably, in that medium) but that it cannot exist in the reality we study.  It would violate many well established natural laws which have stood for centuries without contest.

Jack, if I understand your position correctly, you believe that space doesn’t exist independent of the matter that it is in.  If all matter disappeared, then space would cease to exist?  Is that correct?

If so, Einstein spent the better part of 10 years trying to prove exactly that.  He struggled for 10 years to come up with field equations that make all  laws of physics work exactly the way the we observe even if there was no matter in space and space ceased to exist. He failed.  IOW, in order for the laws of physics, specifically the inertial motion of bodies to behave as we observe, space must exist as a separate physical entity.

Einstein’s field equations confirm this.  Where are you equations that contradict his?
There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information

#### RonJ

• 2039
• ACTA NON VERBA
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2021, 02:24:30 AM »
On light bending, look into what Dr. Edward Dowdye has to say: https://sciencewoke.org/nasa-scientist-says-coronas-bend-light-not-gravity/
How could you believe anything that Dr. Edward Dowdye says?  He used to work for NASA.  Additionally, if you watch the video, he says that the Sun is millions of miles away from the earth, not 3000, as stated in the Wiki.  So, is Dr. Dowdye correct or is he spouting more nonsense as is typical of NASA minions? If you wish to have people believe in FET you have to be consistent in each and every little thing.
You can lead flat earthers to the curve but you can't make them think!

#### Tumeni

• 2973
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2021, 11:36:33 AM »
On light bending, look into what Dr. Edward Dowdye has to say: https://sciencewoke.org/nasa-scientist-says-coronas-bend-light-not-gravity/

Is it agreed that Rowbottom asserted straight light rays?

IMG above

It strikes me that we have better optics available than in Rowbottom's day, and that the Wiki and ENAG Workshop could be updated with improved versions which don't rely on line drawings as proof.

Unless some enterprising zetecist has already done this ... ?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### Flex

• 5
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2021, 12:01:25 PM »
It is because of ocean waves that the distant views get block. On lakes you should be able to see far distances.

#### Tumeni

• 2973
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2021, 01:26:02 PM »
It is because of ocean waves that the distant views get block. On lakes you should be able to see far distances.

Yes, but we're merely talking about observation of things like flags, islands, lighthouses etc. that we can see.

And we could observe over land and rivers, not just oceans.
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### AllAroundTheWorld

• 5590
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2021, 04:01:06 PM »
It is because of ocean waves that the distant views get block. On lakes you should be able to see far distances.
No it isn't. Unless you're on the water's edge and lying down. Or there are really big waves. A wave can only occlude as much of a distant object as its own height if the viewer height is the same height as the waves, which it will be if you're standing up unless there's a particularly choppy sea.

And distant buildings are occluded when looking over large inland lakes too.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

#### Tumeni

• 2973
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2021, 09:45:56 AM »
And we could observe over land and rivers, not just oceans.

Like this - the view over the Forth Estuary in Scotland. Ignore the green annotations; they were for another discussion elsewhere

The waves cannot be obscuring the tops of the bridge towers, for the tallest ones are 210m tall.
The waves cannot be obscuring the tops of the hills beyond. They are approx 400m tall.
The observer was at 210m elevation.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 10:07:12 AM by Tumeni »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### scomato

• 169
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2021, 02:30:13 PM »
It is because of ocean waves that the distant views get block. On lakes you should be able to see far distances.

Standing on one end of Lake Ontario you can see Toronto the other side. I believe this photo is taken from New York based on the angle.

Where did half the city go? Lake Ontario typically only has waves under 5 feet, up to 10-20 when it's stormy, so waves can't explain why the bottom half of the city skyline is missing from view.

#### WTF_Seriously

• 1058
• When I grow up I wanna be like Markjo
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2021, 03:10:49 PM »
Just going to think out loud for a moment.

Been thinking about Scamato's horizon pic.  I know some of the thoughts of hidden horizon center around EA and bendy light so it got me thinking about how bendy light might actually work here.

We're all familiar with this image from the EA Wiki.

What's postulated and attempted to quantify with the EA equation is that the bend of light becomes steeper the further you are from the earth's surface.  This got me to thinking how this would affect how the horizon is viewed as one travels vertically from a given position.  Wouldn't EA cause the effect that as person rises in elevation that the angle at which they view the horizon actually becomes steeper?  Wouldn't this then cause the horizon to actually appear nearer that person.

For example. Consider a person standing at 3PM at an elevation where they see the horizon at 6PM on the 6PM curve in the EA picture.  Now move the 6PM horizon curve to what would be 7PM and change the observers elevation to meet that curve.  Wouldn't the observer now see the horizon while looking at a more downward angle which would give the appearance that the horizon has moved closer to them.  Of course there would be the question of whether or not the effect would even be observable at the range of which an observer could actually see.

Just thinking about how it might work.

Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

#### jimster

• 243
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2021, 06:27:15 PM »
I was in a 16 foot open boat. Any wave that would block my vision would have sunk the boat. It's the Pacific ocean, pacific, from the latin pacifus, meaning peaceful. No wave blocked my vision. Southern CA, clear cloudless, no haze.

Also in the EA section of the wiki it says that scientists don't think light bends because they just never consider the possibility. This puzzles me, as I was taught reflection, refraction, and Einsteinian gravity bending, It seems they are open to the idea of bending. They even have experiments and equations, and consistency with other ways to measure.

It also talks about how a car can't continue straight because without constant corrections. Actually, on a flat surface with no crown on the road, my cars track straight. I suggest the author of the the wiki should get his car aligned, perhaps new tires. But it doesn't matter, because science does have the aforementioned "bumps in the road". They are known, measured, confirmed, and considered in the science and navigation.

WTF, there is a thin line between extending the model and proof by contradiction. That's why it's always "no one knows" and "no equations yet", etc. FE is allergic to details and consistency. It is a one layer system. RE poses question, FE has glib flawed answer, then pursuing it further goes nowhere. Change topic, get angry, say it has already been answered, that question is not allowed, or just don't respond. FE would do well in politics with these skills.

My original question still has not been answered and can be posed re the picture of sailboat and skyline posted above. I can see the water for miles, and the tops of the mountain/buildings. If I draw a side view diagram, the rays come up from the water and down from the building/mountain tops meet at my eye. What happened to the light rays between? No haze, no big waves.
"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".

#### WTF_Seriously

• 1058
• When I grow up I wanna be like Markjo
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2021, 04:58:54 PM »
My original question still has not been answered and can be posed re the picture of sailboat and skyline posted above. I can see the water for miles, and the tops of the mountain/buildings. If I draw a side view diagram, the rays come up from the water and down from the building/mountain tops meet at my eye. What happened to the light rays between? No haze, no big waves.

I'm surprised no one invoked Bendy-Light in response to your question.  Here's what I believe would be the Bendy-Light explanation for what you see:

On the left is the object being viewed.  Should have drawn it a little taller for clarity.  The red line shows what would be the height at which the object can start to be seen.  It travels to the green horizon line and then continues to the viewer (you).  Above the red line the object is visible.  The blue lines show how the image of the object would crash into the ground and thus disappear below the horizon.  The black lines show how the image of the water beyond the horizon would curve up above the viewer thus not being seen at the viewers elevation until you get to the horizon line at which time the water becomes visible.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

#### WTF_Seriously

• 1058
• When I grow up I wanna be like Markjo
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2021, 05:29:57 PM »

Here's another interesting circumstance of "Help me understand how light rays travel"

Here's an image of how the Sun would be positioned with respect to Melbourne, Australia based on the FE north monopole model.

The red circle is the Tropic of Cancer (June Solstice) the blue line is the Tropic of Capricorn (December Solstice).

'A' is the postition of the sun at sunrise in Melbourne on the December solstice based on the time and the 360 degree daily rotation of the sun.  If we leave the distance that light travels on the December solstice constant and try to determine what time sunrise would be on the June solstice we get position 'B'.  You will see that 'B' extends beyond the Tropic of Cancer even at the longest distance from Melbourne to the Tropic of Cancer.  This means, based on the distance that light can travel on the December solstice, that the Sun shouldn't set at the June solstice.  What actually occurs is that the sun rises at position 'C' in Melbourne at the June solstice.

So, what we need to understand is how the distance that light rays travel shortens between the December and June solstices.
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

#### existoid

• 209
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2021, 05:50:07 PM »

If we leave the distance that light travels on the December solstice constant and try to determine what time sunrise would be on the June solstice we get position 'B'.

Can you elaborate/show your work on this?  Not disagreeing, I just don't comprehend it.

#### WTF_Seriously

• 1058
• When I grow up I wanna be like Markjo
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2021, 06:55:15 PM »

If we leave the distance that light travels on the December solstice constant and try to determine what time sunrise would be on the June solstice we get position 'B'.

Can you elaborate/show your work on this?  Not disagreeing, I just don't comprehend it.

Sure.

Just to reiterate, position A is dictated by sunrise.  Based off of solar noon (where the sun would appear due north of Melbourne), you can go back to sunrise @ 15 degrees/hr. and position the sun on the Tropic of Capricorn.  This would give straight line distance that sunlight travels (M to A) when the sun rises on the December solstice at Melbourne.

If you now take M as the center of rotation, you can use M to A as the radius and rotate the sun toward the latitude of the Tropic of Cancer.  What is a little confusing is that B never instersects the Tropic of Cancer since the M to A line is too long.  Had the sun intersected the Tropic of Cancer somewhere, that would indicate the time at which the sun would become viewable at the June solstice in Melbourne based off the distance that it is able to travel on the December solstice .  Since the distance from M to B (M to B equals M to A) is so long going through the north pole, it would dictate that the sun would not set leading up to the June solstice.

Hope that clarifies it.

Edited to add:  B sits at approximately 19 degrees lattitude.  This would dictate that Melbourne should be in constant sunlight anytime the sun is north of 19 degrees latitude based on the analysis of the model.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 07:22:22 PM by WTF_Seriously »
Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe.

Lee McIntyre, Boston University

#### jimster

• 243
##### Re: Help me understand how light rays travel
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2021, 05:27:20 PM »
Still no answer on the original post. The light rays from the ocean around the boat reach my eyes, the rays from the top of the mountain reach my eyes. In my field of vision, Oxnard is between the two. Why did the rays from Oxnard not reach my eyes?

We returned at night, and there was one light that first appeared. More lights appeard under the first, and when we got close, the entire shore was lit up. The bright lights of the marine were not compressed, they were missing. Why did I not see the very bright lights of the marina and hotels all the way back? Why did I see one light, then more, and finally the lit up shoreline?
"Electromagnetic Acceleration" sounds so much more sciency than "bendy light".